Krishnamurti_EN

Krishnamurti Subtitles

Is time necessary to end something psychologically?

Ojai - 10 May 1980

Public Talk 3

0:34	May we continue where
	we left off last Sunday.

0:46	Perhaps some of you
	were not here

0:51	so we have to go over
	again a little bit

0:57	briefly, what we
	were saying.

1:08	We have been saying
	for many years

1:15	that society cannot
	possibly be changed:

1:22	the society which is
	in great turmoil,

1:29	which is corrupt,
	where there is war,

1:37	a great deal of struggle
	between human beings,

1:42	that society cannot
	possibly be changed

1:49	unless human beings
	who have created it

1:54	bring about a radical
	change in themselves.

2:02	This is
	what we've said

2:06	and we must explain
	a little more about it.

2:15	But please, this is not

2:19	a gathering
	for entertainment.

2:26	This is not a meeting
	of people together

2:31	to be mentally, intellectually
	or romantically, stimulated.

2:44	We are here, I hope,
	to face this problem

2:54	which is this enormous
	confusion, mischief,

3:01	great danger, which
	human beings are facing.

3:08	To go into it very deeply
	we must think together

3:16	about the problem.

3:20	We cannot possibly
	think together

3:28	if we have
	contradictory opinions.

3:34	If we are anchored in our own
	particular conclusion or belief.

3:49	Or hold on to some fantastic
	or romantic experience.

3:58	Because this problem
	faces all mankind.

4:05	Wherever you go, if you have
	travelled, not as a tourist

4:16	but wherever you go
	you'll find the same problem:

4:23	man against man, confusion,
	fear, lack of integrity.

4:37	And the scientist,
	the psychologists

4:43	somehow don't seem to be
	able to resolve this problem,

4:48	nor the politicians,
	nor the institutions

4:53	whether they are religious
	or political or social.

5:02	So it behoves us, if we are
	at all serious and concerned

5:11	that we, human beings who
	have created that society

5:19	and we are
	responsible

5:22	for all the things that are
	happening in the world,

5:26	the appalling cruelty,
	to animals, to human beings,

5:33	the religious tortures
	in the past, and so on.

5:40	We have created them.

5:45	And to understand that,
	not merely intellectually

5:57	but to really face it.

6:03	I hope we can think together
	about the problem.

6:12	That is, if one has
	a particular point of view

6:20	and another
	holds his opinion

6:24	then it's impossible
	to think together.

6:32	If you are prejudiced

6:34	and the speaker has
	a particular point of view

6:40	then we cannot possibly
	think together.

6:45	Thinking together
	does not mean agreeing

6:52	but rather, together,

6:56	human beings,
	as two human beings,

7:01	not Americans and Hindus
	and all that business

7:04	but two human beings

7:09	who are confronted
	with this problem:

7:16	the problem that human
	beings have created,

7:21	this society
	which is so terrifying

7:26	and, as human beings,

7:31	we have to
	radically change ourselves.

7:36	And is that possible?

7:42	Is it possible
	for a human mind

7:46	which has evolved
	through time,

7:51	many millennia
	upon millennia,

7:57	passed through
	great many experiences,

8:00	sufferings, many
	conflicting incidents, wars,

8:07	this mind
	of the human being,

8:13	this brain - which is
	not yours or mine

8:20	but the brain that has evolved,
	five, ten million years,

8:32	it's the human brain,
	not a particular brain.

8:40	But we have reduced it as
	a particular brain, mine and yours

8:48	but if you examine it very
	carefully one will find this brain

8:57	which has evolved through time,
	is the brain of mankind.

9:09	Please don't reject it or
	accept it, examine it, look at it.

9:16	Because this brain of ours
	suffers, is anxious, lonely,

9:29	frightened, pursuing
	constant pleasure.

9:37	And this brain has lived
	in a particular pattern

9:42	and this pattern
	is repeated

9:44	over and over and over
	again all over the world,

9:50	whether they are Buddhists,
	Hindus, Communists

9:54	Catholics or whatever,
	what you will.

9:59	So it is not your brain

10:05	or a particular individual's brain,
	it's the brain of mankind!

10:16	And that brain has functioned
	in various patterns,

10:23	pattern of fear, pattern of pleasure,
	and reward or punishment.

10:31	That's the pattern, through all
	these millennia, it has developed.

10:45	And is it possible
	to bring about

10:57	not another series
	of pleasurable patterns

11:05	or patterns of fear,
	beliefs and so on,

11:10	but to go beyond
	all these patterns

11:16	otherwise there is
	no radical change

11:21	there is
	no psychological revolution.

11:29	I think this is important
	to understand.

11:33	Again, please,

11:38	you're not listening to a talk
	by some strange person.

11:49	We are together thinking,
	enquiring into the problem.

12:00	So you're not, if you
	will kindly follow it,

12:05	you're not accepting
	any authority,

12:09	we're not doing
	any propaganda

12:12	or trying to convince you
	of anything.

12:19	But seeing the problem,
	which is very complex,

12:30	and looking at that problem,
	facing that problem

12:39	and enquiring together
	into that problem.

12:45	The enquiry into the problem
	is not analysis:

12:52	the cause, effect.

12:57	Enquiry is not...

13:14	Enquiry is not argument,

13:17	opposing one opinion
	against another opinion,

13:23	one prejudice
	against another.

13:28	Enquiry implies
	observation.

13:35	Where there is observation
	there is no analysis.

13:40	When you observe, that is
	when you observe without fear,

13:49	without your own particular
	prejudice, or idiosyncrasy,

14:02	then in that observation
	analysis ends.

14:09	I hope we are doing
	this together.

14:14	That is, when you observe
	a tree, that thing,

14:20	the very observation
	is through words:

14:29	the moment you see it,
	you call it a tree.

14:34	Please do this
	as we are talking.

14:40	To look at that thing
	without the word,

14:45	which is to observe
	actually what it is.

14:49	That's fairly clear.

14:53	But to do that psychologically
	is much more complex.

15:02	To observe
	without any motive,

15:07	to observe what actually
	is going on:

15:10	your fear, your anxiety,
	your loneliness,

15:13	one's own sense of
	lacking, depression,

15:22	whatever is actually
	going on.

15:27	To observe it without
	analysis, without judging,

15:34	without evaluating,
	just to observe.

15:40	I hope this is
	becoming clear.

15:43	Can we do this,
	together?

15:53	Our minds have been
	trained to analyse,

16:00	to see the cause
	and discover the effect

16:07	and in the very process
	of discovering the effect

16:11	the effect becomes
	the cause. It is a chain.

16:16	You're following
	all this?

16:24	I think it's one
	of our calamities

16:28	that we have during these...
	probably hundred years,

16:35	we have Communism
	and psychoanalysis,

16:44	because
	they now prevent

16:47	your being actually
	responsible for yourself.

16:57	If there is any trouble, turmoil in
	yourself, you go to an analyst

17:05	or some institution
	or some group, and so on.

17:14	You, as a human being,
	you are now becoming

17:21	not free, but
	depending on others.

17:31	Depending on the church,
	depending on politics,

17:36	depending on your gurus,
	or whatever it is,

17:40	you are always depending
	on somebody to change,

17:44	to bring about
	order in yourself.

17:49	So we are nearly
	losing our freedom

17:53	to be responsible
	for ourselves.

17:59	That's why Communism
	makes one irresponsible.

18:06	Like psychoanalysis: it reduces
	you or makes you depend

18:13	on somebody to solve
	your problem.

18:22	So
	what we're saying is

18:30	that as human beings

18:39	we are responsible for the disorder
	that exists in the world.

18:50	And this disorder
	is created by thought.

19:01	That's where we ended up
	last week, last Sunday.

19:08	We said that thought
	has created

19:16	not only the marvellous
	architecture,

19:20	the marvellous cathedrals and
	the temples, and the mosques,

19:28	it has created
	the technological world,

19:33	beneficial
	and destructive,

19:40	war and
	the instruments of war.

19:46	Thought has created,

19:51	has brought about the division
	between human beings:

20:01	nationalistic, class,
	political, economic,

20:07	spiritual,
	religious divisions.

20:12	If you examine it closely,
	you will see that's a fact.

20:22	Thought has been
	responsible for all this.

20:30	Not only what is inside
	the temples, the churches

20:40	but also what is outside
	in the world.

20:46	So unless we understand very
	deeply the nature of thought

20:51	there is no possibility of
	bringing about a radical change.

20:57	Right?

20:59	Are we together in this,
	so far?

21:06	Thought has created
	the technological world.

21:13	Right?

21:14	Thought also has created
	the images: about oneself,

21:22	about the various
	national divisions,

21:28	thought has created
	the Arab, the Jew,

21:31	the Hindu, the Muslim,
	and so on and so on.

21:36	Thought has also created
	the marvellous architecture

21:44	and the churches,
	the cathedrals

21:46	and the images in all those
	cathedrals, temples and mosques.

21:51	There are no images
	in the Islamic world

21:58	but they have
	the scripture, the writing

22:01	which is also
	a form of image.

22:06	But thought has not
	created nature:

22:10	the tree, the river,
	the skies, the stars,

22:15	those lovely mountains,
	the birds.

22:24	But thought is using them,
	destroying them,

22:30	destroying the earth,
	polluting the air and so on.

22:36	So if we want to resolve this
	problem of conflict, struggle,

22:43	turmoil, confusion in the human
	mind and so in the human society,

22:50	we must go into this question
	of what is thinking. Right?

22:54	Are we meeting together?
	Please, shall we?

23:00	No, Sir, not only you
	but all of us together.

23:08	We are asking: what is
	thought, what is thinking?

23:16	Why has thought
	made all this?

23:24	Why has thought brought
	about marvellous medicine

23:32	and also why thought creates
	wars and destroys human beings?

23:44	Why has thought
	made God

23:55	and why has thought made
	the image of God?

24:02	Thought has made
	the image of God.

24:11	And also thought
	has brought

24:13	such enormous conflict
	between human beings,

24:18	between you and
	your intimate friend,

24:24	intimate person, wife, husband,
	boy and so on and so on.

24:33	Are you interested
	in all this?

24:38	Or have you come here
	to enjoy a rather cool morning,

24:44	sitting under the trees?

24:54	If you are really interested
	- not in what is being said

25:03	but rather interested
	to find out.

25:10	Interested to find out
	for yourself

25:18	why has thought
	done this,

25:23	what is the nature
	of thought.

25:28	That means, together
	we are looking into it.

25:38	That means you must
	exercise your observation,

25:42	you must go into it
	as alertly, keenly,

25:48	passionately as
	the speaker is doing.

25:52	Not just sit there and
	casually listen and go away.

25:59	This is not an entertainment,
	this is a very serious affair.

26:12	So we are enquiring, talking
	over together as two friends.

26:24	You can't talk together with so
	many people but it's two people,

26:32	you and the speaker,
	trying to find out

26:36	why thought has made
	this confusion, this turmoil.

26:48	So thought is matter.

26:56	Thought is the response
	of memory. Right?

27:05	If you had no memory
	you wouldn't be able to think,

27:08	if you had no remembrance
	of things past,

27:14	thought
	wouldn't operate.

27:18	So thought
	is the response of memory.

27:23	Memory is the outcome of various
	experiences, multiple incidents,

27:35	accidents, which have been
	accumulated as knowledge

27:41	- follow all this, sirs -
	stored up in the brain.

27:49	And that experience, that
	knowledge, which is memory,

27:57	and the reaction of that
	memory is thinking. Right?

28:03	It's not what I'm saying - you
	can discover it for yourself.

28:10	Right? Is that clear?
	Can we go on from there?

28:16	That is,
	through millennia,

28:20	we have acquired
	different kinds of knowledge:

28:32	literary, scientific,
	personal, experiences.

28:43	Those experiences
	have become knowledge

28:48	both
	scientific and personal.

28:55	That knowledge is stored
	in the brain.

29:00	So that brain is not your knowledge,
	it is the human knowledge.

29:08	I know we like to think that
	it's my brain and your brain.

29:18	So this knowledge, experience
	stored in the brain as memory,

29:28	must always be limited because
	knowledge is never complete.

29:38	Right?

29:41	Can never be complete,
	in any field.

29:50	So with knowledge
	goes ignorance.

29:56	Therefore thought
	is always limited, partial.

30:04	It can never be
	complete.

30:08	Right?

30:12	Don't agree with me,
	sirs, examine it.

30:21	So thought has created
	this world of confusion

30:27	because in itself
	it is limited. Right?

30:34	Thought, as we said,
	is matter.

30:40	That thought can only
	create matter, thing.

30:48	Right?

30:51	It can create illusions,

30:54	it can create
	marvellous ideas,

30:58	utopias, marvellous systems,
	theories

31:11	but that very theory, that very
	ideal, that very concept

31:20	by the theologians, or by the
	historians, is always limited.

31:26	Right?

31:34	So our actions
	are always limited.

31:42	Therefore our actions
	are fragmented. Right?

31:50	Our action can never be complete
	if it is based on thought.

31:59	Right, sirs?

32:07	If one realises that,
	not as an idea

32:14	but as an actuality - you
	understand the difference?

32:20	The idea and the actual.

32:26	You hear this statement, that
	thought can never be complete,

32:34	whatever it creates
	must be incomplete.

32:38	You hear that statement
	and instinctively

32:43	you make an abstraction
	of it into an idea.

32:48	You're following
	all this?

32:53	Are we together in this?

32:55	An abstraction,
	away from the fact.

33:00	So then the idea
	becomes all-important.

33:06	And then you think, 'How am I
	to carry out that idea?'

33:13	So there is again division
	between action and idea.

33:28	Are we going too fast?

33:33	It's up to you.

33:37	So: observation without abstraction,
	observation without analysis,

33:53	observation without
	any form of conclusion.

33:59	Just to observe
	the nature of thinking.

34:06	That is,
	who is the observer

34:14	who is observing
	the nature of thinking?

34:18	I wonder
	if you see this.

34:22	You understand, sir?

34:25	Somebody
	I must talk to.

34:30	Right?

34:32	Can I pick on somebody,
	sir?

34:43	Right, sir, let's put
	it this way.

34:46	One is very greedy,
	self-centred. That's a fact.

34:59	Is greed
	different from you?

35:06	You understand
	my question?

35:10	You are greed!

35:15	But we have unfortunately
	created an illusion, that is

35:23	greed and I will act, do something
	about that greed. Right?

35:32	So there is a division between
	greed and the actor

35:38	who will act upon greed.
	Right? So is that a fact?

35:47	Or is it a pattern
	which we have developed

35:54	to escape from the fact?
	Right?

36:01	I wonder if you're
	meeting all this.

36:04	That is, I am greedy,

36:12	I don't quite know how to resolve
	this whole problem of greed

36:17	so I created its opposite,
	non-greed,

36:24	and work with non-greed,
	which is non-fact.

36:28	You're following
	all this?

36:33	So we are saying,
	the observer is the observed.

36:43	Right?

36:46	Right, sir? So there is
	no division. Sir, look,

36:52	there is a division between the
	Jew and the Arab, right?

36:59	Created by thought:
	by racial prejudices,

37:06	by religious conditioning.

37:11	But they are living
	on the same earth.

37:16	But they are all
	fighting each other.

37:19	Now if you observe it
	very carefully

37:22	the human mind is
	conditioned as a Hindu,

37:26	as a Muslim, Arab, Jew,
	Christian, non-Christian.

37:32	You follow? It has
	been conditioned.

37:36	And that conditioning says,
	'I'm different from you'.

37:42	Right?

37:44	And these differences
	of conditioning, by thought,

37:51	encouraged by various people
	for political, religious reasons,

38:01	and we hold on
	to that division.

38:06	So where there is division
	there must be struggle,

38:11	there must be conflict.

38:14	So when one realises

38:22	that greed is not separate
	from me, I am greed,

38:29	then there is totally a different
	movement taking place.

38:35	You're following this,
	sir?

38:37	Are we meeting each other
	in this point?

38:41	Gosh,
	it seems so difficult.

38:43	Is it very complex,
	what we're talking about?

38:47	Yes, sir?

38:50	Look at it, sir.

38:53	How will you meet
	violence?

38:59	Human beings
	are violent. Right?

39:02	We have cultivated
	the opposite.

39:06	Right? The non-violence,
	don't be violent,

39:09	be kind, be just,
	be all the rest of it.

39:13	But basically
	we are violent,

39:15	it still goes on,
	after a million years.

39:21	Is that violence
	different from you?

39:32	It's not, obviously.
	You are violence!

39:37	Now can you observe
	that fact

39:42	without making any kind
	of idea about the fact?

39:54	Then what takes place?
	You're following all this?

40:02	I'm violent.
	As a human being I'm violent.

40:08	And I have lived with that
	violence for a million years,

40:14	my brain
	has formed the pattern

40:21	of not being violent
	and yet violence.

40:28	And the pursuit of not being
	violent is an escape from the fact.

40:38	And,
	if I observe the fact,

40:44	is the fact of being violent
	different from me,

40:49	my nature, my way of looking?
	I am that. Right?

40:57	Do we agree?

41:00	Then, the conflict
	which existed before

41:04	ends, doesn't it?

41:10	I wonder
	if you see this.

41:13	The conflict of division between
	violence and not being violent,

41:20	that's a conflict, but when
	there is the realisation,

41:28	'I am conflict', not 'I am
	different from conflict',

41:34	then that conflict ends.

41:39	And a totally different
	action takes place.

41:53	So sir, our question is:

42:00	thought is
	the movement in time.

42:08	Right?

42:13	Thought is based on memory,
	which is the past,

42:18	the past with all its conclusions,
	ideas, beliefs, images,

42:26	from that past
	the present,

42:32	the past meets the present
	and the future. Right?

42:36	There's a constant modification
	going on. That is time.

42:42	Right?

42:44	There is not only
	chronological time, by the watch,

42:50	by the day, night,
	night and day

42:53	but also there is
	psychological time. Right?

43:03	'I will be'.

43:07	When you say, 'I will be'
	that is time.

43:12	'I must become something'
	- that's time.

43:16	'I am not good but
	I will be good',

43:24	that's time.

43:30	And time is also
	thought. Right?

43:43	Time
	as day and night,

43:48	time when you have to go
	and catch the bus,

43:52	time to acquire knowledge,
	to learn a language,

43:58	time to acquire any kind
	of technological knowledge,

44:03	to act skilfully,
	to earn a livelihood,

44:06	all that is time,
	requires time.

44:14	Psychologically, inwardly, we have
	also this idea of time. Right?

44:26	'I am not' but 'I will be'.

44:31	'I am confused, I'll go to the
	analyst, he will help me'.

44:37	Time.

44:38	So psychologically we have
	cultivated this idea of time.

44:51	Right?

44:57	So time is a movement
	from here to there.

45:02	Psychologically also it's a
	movement from here to there.

45:06	So thought is time.

45:11	Right?

45:15	This is important
	to understand because

45:20	our brain is
	the essence of time

45:32	and we've functioned
	psychologically in that pattern.

45:39	'I will have pleasure'.

45:44	'I remember being happy, having
	a marvellous experience,

45:49	this or that, and I must
	have more'.

45:54	This constant becoming
	is time.

46:03	Now we're asking
	is that an actuality

46:09	or a fiction or an illusion,
	psychologically?

46:18	Right, sir, are you
	getting tired?

46:24	This is too much probably,
	all this.

46:35	We're saying, time is necessary
	in the acquisition of knowledge

46:48	of various kinds,
	many kinds.

46:53	Now, is time necessary to end
	something, psychologically?

47:02	You're following?

47:04	That is, psychologically,
	I have fear.

47:11	Most human beings
	have fear.

47:16	And they have had
	this fear, psychologically,

47:19	probably from the very
	beginning of time,

47:23	from the very beginning
	of psychological time.

47:28	Right?

47:32	And we haven't
	resolved it.

47:37	Not only are we frightened of
	physical pain and so on, physically,

47:43	but psychologically also

47:47	we have great fears
	of getting hurt,

47:51	getting bruised, wounded,
	psychologically,

47:55	because from childhood
	we have been hurt, and so on.

48:01	So our brain
	functions in time.

48:11	And so it has never resolved
	any of the problems.

48:17	I wonder
	if you meet this.

48:23	If I say to myself,
	'I will get over my fear'

48:32	actually
	what takes place is

48:34	I'm still frightened
	at the end of it.

48:38	I exercise will, control it,
	escape from it and so on.

48:48	And so human beings have never
	resolved this problem of fear.

48:57	And we are saying, as long as
	we think in patterns of time

49:05	psychologically,
	fear will continue.

49:14	Is this clear?

49:16	So, we are saying:

49:21	can this thing called fear
	be ended immediately?

49:31	Now let me take
	another example.

49:34	Fear is rather a complex problem
	which we'll go into perhaps

49:38	tomorrow,
	in another talk.

49:41	Take for instance dependence,
	psychological dependence.

49:51	Human beings
	have cultivated this

49:56	because they are afraid
	to be alone,

50:00	they are afraid to be lonely,
	they want comfort,

50:05	they feel sustained if they
	depend on somebody.

50:12	Because in themselves
	they are insufficient

50:17	psychologically, therefore
	clinging to somebody,

50:21	a religious image, or a
	personal image and so on,

50:26	clinging to somebody.

50:29	Now that has been the pattern
	of the human mind,

50:37	cultivated through time.

50:41	The consequences of dependence
	is fear, anxiety, jealousy,

50:47	hatred, antagonism,
	all that follows.

50:52	In that pattern
	we have lived. Right?

51:00	Now to end that pattern
	immediately is the question.

51:09	Because the moment
	you admit time, 'I will end it',

51:14	you have admitted
	moving away from the fact.

51:19	Right?

51:23	The fact is,
	one is dependent.

51:29	Now ,without admitting time,
	you understand,

51:34	- 'I will get over it' -
	end it, immediately.

51:40	You have broken the pattern
	of time. You are following this?

51:49	Are you working as hard
	as I am working for you?

51:54	That is, sir, observe

51:57	how you are dependent
	on another, psychologically.

52:04	All the remembrance,
	all the pictures,

52:07	the images and so on
	- dependent.

52:12	And our brain has been used
	to the pattern of time

52:18	because it has grown
	with time.

52:24	So it has exercised
	an act of will

52:30	- 'I will' - and that means
	avoiding the fact.

52:41	Now when one understands,
	not intellectually, or verbally

52:45	but actually sees the fact,
	how the brain works in time

52:51	and therefore
	never resolves,

52:54	and you see the urgency
	of not depending,

52:59	it is ended!

53:07	When you end something,
	a new thing begins.

53:17	Right?

53:19	Are we thinking together

53:23	or are you merely listening
	to the talk of a speaker

53:31	and then saying, 'Yes,

53:33	I don't quite understand
	what he's talking about.

53:38	He talks about
	this and that'.

53:40	Which means, you really are not
	thinking about the problem

53:45	which is your problem,
	the problem of humanity,

53:55	the problem
	which is to bring about

53:58	a totally different
	kind of society.

54:11	So is it possible to end
	your antagonism, your hatred,

54:22	your jealousy,

54:26	- you understand -
	immediately!

54:31	So that the brain has broken
	the pattern, and can think

54:36	and can act and look and
	observe totally differently.

54:40	I wonder
	if you get this!

54:43	Sir, this is meditation.
	You understand?

54:48	Not all the phoney stuff
	that has been talked about.

54:56	To meditate,
	which means to observe

55:01	how your mind operates

55:06	not what the psychologists have
	told you how your mind operates,

55:12	Freud and all the
	rest of the gang,

55:18	but to observe
	for yourself

55:21	because you are
	responsible for yourself,

55:25	for your body, for your mind,
	for your thoughts.

55:35	So can you observe the whole
	content of your consciousness?

55:44	You understand?

55:46	Am I making this
	too difficult, sirs?

55:51	I don't know, would you
	tell me a little bit?

55:54	Am I making this
	too difficult?

56:02	Your consciousness is full of the
	things that thought has created.

56:16	Right?

56:19	Your anxieties, your beliefs,
	your gods,

56:23	your saviours, your
	Krishna's - you follow?

56:29	All that has been created
	by thought.

56:33	So your consciousness
	is the essence of time.

56:39	By gosh,
	do you get it?

56:43	And we are living,
	functioning, acting in that.

56:51	And therefore there is never
	a radical, psychological change.

57:01	And therefore society
	can never be good.

57:10	Goodness is not
	the opposite of bad. Right?

57:19	If it is,
	it is not good.

57:23	Love is not
	the opposite of hate. Right?

57:28	If it is,
	it is still hate.

57:33	Right?

57:44	So sir, what time is it?

57:54	11:30, 12:30,
	we better stop here.

58:01	We'll continue tomorrow,
	if you all want to come.