Krishnamurti Subtitles

Is time necessary to end something psychologically?

Ojai - 10 May 1980

Public Talk 3

0:34 May we continue where
we left off last Sunday.
0:46 Perhaps some of you
were not here
0:51 so we have to go over
again a little bit
0:57 briefly, what we
were saying.
1:08 We have been saying
for many years
1:15 that society cannot
possibly be changed:
1:22 the society which is
in great turmoil,
1:29 which is corrupt,
where there is war,
1:37 a great deal of struggle
between human beings,
1:42 that society cannot
possibly be changed
1:49 unless human beings
who have created it
1:54 bring about a radical
change in themselves.
2:02 This is
what we've said
2:06 and we must explain
a little more about it.
2:15 But please, this is not
2:19 a gathering
for entertainment.
2:26 This is not a meeting
of people together
2:31 to be mentally, intellectually
or romantically, stimulated.
2:44 We are here, I hope,
to face this problem
2:54 which is this enormous
confusion, mischief,
3:01 great danger, which
human beings are facing.
3:08 To go into it very deeply
we must think together
3:16 about the problem.
3:20 We cannot possibly
think together
3:28 if we have
contradictory opinions.
3:34 If we are anchored in our own
particular conclusion or belief.
3:49 Or hold on to some fantastic
or romantic experience.
3:58 Because this problem
faces all mankind.
4:05 Wherever you go, if you have
travelled, not as a tourist
4:16 but wherever you go
you'll find the same problem:
4:23 man against man, confusion,
fear, lack of integrity.
4:37 And the scientist,
the psychologists
4:43 somehow don't seem to be
able to resolve this problem,
4:48 nor the politicians,
nor the institutions
4:53 whether they are religious
or political or social.
5:02 So it behoves us, if we are
at all serious and concerned
5:11 that we, human beings who
have created that society
5:19 and we are
5:22 for all the things that are
happening in the world,
5:26 the appalling cruelty,
to animals, to human beings,
5:33 the religious tortures
in the past, and so on.
5:40 We have created them.
5:45 And to understand that,
not merely intellectually
5:57 but to really face it.
6:03 I hope we can think together
about the problem.
6:12 That is, if one has
a particular point of view
6:20 and another
holds his opinion
6:24 then it's impossible
to think together.
6:32 If you are prejudiced
6:34 and the speaker has
a particular point of view
6:40 then we cannot possibly
think together.
6:45 Thinking together
does not mean agreeing
6:52 but rather, together,
6:56 human beings,
as two human beings,
7:01 not Americans and Hindus
and all that business
7:04 but two human beings
7:09 who are confronted
with this problem:
7:16 the problem that human
beings have created,
7:21 this society
which is so terrifying
7:26 and, as human beings,
7:31 we have to
radically change ourselves.
7:36 And is that possible?
7:42 Is it possible
for a human mind
7:46 which has evolved
through time,
7:51 many millennia
upon millennia,
7:57 passed through
great many experiences,
8:00 sufferings, many
conflicting incidents, wars,
8:07 this mind
of the human being,
8:13 this brain - which is
not yours or mine
8:20 but the brain that has evolved,
five, ten million years,
8:32 it's the human brain,
not a particular brain.
8:40 But we have reduced it as
a particular brain, mine and yours
8:48 but if you examine it very
carefully one will find this brain
8:57 which has evolved through time,
is the brain of mankind.
9:09 Please don't reject it or
accept it, examine it, look at it.
9:16 Because this brain of ours
suffers, is anxious, lonely,
9:29 frightened, pursuing
constant pleasure.
9:37 And this brain has lived
in a particular pattern
9:42 and this pattern
is repeated
9:44 over and over and over
again all over the world,
9:50 whether they are Buddhists,
Hindus, Communists
9:54 Catholics or whatever,
what you will.
9:59 So it is not your brain
10:05 or a particular individual's brain,
it's the brain of mankind!
10:16 And that brain has functioned
in various patterns,
10:23 pattern of fear, pattern of pleasure,
and reward or punishment.
10:31 That's the pattern, through all
these millennia, it has developed.
10:45 And is it possible
to bring about
10:57 not another series
of pleasurable patterns
11:05 or patterns of fear,
beliefs and so on,
11:10 but to go beyond
all these patterns
11:16 otherwise there is
no radical change
11:21 there is
no psychological revolution.
11:29 I think this is important
to understand.
11:33 Again, please,
11:38 you're not listening to a talk
by some strange person.
11:49 We are together thinking,
enquiring into the problem.
12:00 So you're not, if you
will kindly follow it,
12:05 you're not accepting
any authority,
12:09 we're not doing
any propaganda
12:12 or trying to convince you
of anything.
12:19 But seeing the problem,
which is very complex,
12:30 and looking at that problem,
facing that problem
12:39 and enquiring together
into that problem.
12:45 The enquiry into the problem
is not analysis:
12:52 the cause, effect.
12:57 Enquiry is not...
13:14 Enquiry is not argument,
13:17 opposing one opinion
against another opinion,
13:23 one prejudice
against another.
13:28 Enquiry implies
13:35 Where there is observation
there is no analysis.
13:40 When you observe, that is
when you observe without fear,
13:49 without your own particular
prejudice, or idiosyncrasy,
14:02 then in that observation
analysis ends.
14:09 I hope we are doing
this together.
14:14 That is, when you observe
a tree, that thing,
14:20 the very observation
is through words:
14:29 the moment you see it,
you call it a tree.
14:34 Please do this
as we are talking.
14:40 To look at that thing
without the word,
14:45 which is to observe
actually what it is.
14:49 That's fairly clear.
14:53 But to do that psychologically
is much more complex.
15:02 To observe
without any motive,
15:07 to observe what actually
is going on:
15:10 your fear, your anxiety,
your loneliness,
15:13 one's own sense of
lacking, depression,
15:22 whatever is actually
going on.
15:27 To observe it without
analysis, without judging,
15:34 without evaluating,
just to observe.
15:40 I hope this is
becoming clear.
15:43 Can we do this,
15:53 Our minds have been
trained to analyse,
16:00 to see the cause
and discover the effect
16:07 and in the very process
of discovering the effect
16:11 the effect becomes
the cause. It is a chain.
16:16 You're following
all this?
16:24 I think it's one
of our calamities
16:28 that we have during these...
probably hundred years,
16:35 we have Communism
and psychoanalysis,
16:44 because
they now prevent
16:47 your being actually
responsible for yourself.
16:57 If there is any trouble, turmoil in
yourself, you go to an analyst
17:05 or some institution
or some group, and so on.
17:14 You, as a human being,
you are now becoming
17:21 not free, but
depending on others.
17:31 Depending on the church,
depending on politics,
17:36 depending on your gurus,
or whatever it is,
17:40 you are always depending
on somebody to change,
17:44 to bring about
order in yourself.
17:49 So we are nearly
losing our freedom
17:53 to be responsible
for ourselves.
17:59 That's why Communism
makes one irresponsible.
18:06 Like psychoanalysis: it reduces
you or makes you depend
18:13 on somebody to solve
your problem.
18:22 So
what we're saying is
18:30 that as human beings
18:39 we are responsible for the disorder
that exists in the world.
18:50 And this disorder
is created by thought.
19:01 That's where we ended up
last week, last Sunday.
19:08 We said that thought
has created
19:16 not only the marvellous
19:20 the marvellous cathedrals and
the temples, and the mosques,
19:28 it has created
the technological world,
19:33 beneficial
and destructive,
19:40 war and
the instruments of war.
19:46 Thought has created,
19:51 has brought about the division
between human beings:
20:01 nationalistic, class,
political, economic,
20:07 spiritual,
religious divisions.
20:12 If you examine it closely,
you will see that's a fact.
20:22 Thought has been
responsible for all this.
20:30 Not only what is inside
the temples, the churches
20:40 but also what is outside
in the world.
20:46 So unless we understand very
deeply the nature of thought
20:51 there is no possibility of
bringing about a radical change.
20:57 Right?
20:59 Are we together in this,
so far?
21:06 Thought has created
the technological world.
21:13 Right?
21:14 Thought also has created
the images: about oneself,
21:22 about the various
national divisions,
21:28 thought has created
the Arab, the Jew,
21:31 the Hindu, the Muslim,
and so on and so on.
21:36 Thought has also created
the marvellous architecture
21:44 and the churches,
the cathedrals
21:46 and the images in all those
cathedrals, temples and mosques.
21:51 There are no images
in the Islamic world
21:58 but they have
the scripture, the writing
22:01 which is also
a form of image.
22:06 But thought has not
created nature:
22:10 the tree, the river,
the skies, the stars,
22:15 those lovely mountains,
the birds.
22:24 But thought is using them,
destroying them,
22:30 destroying the earth,
polluting the air and so on.
22:36 So if we want to resolve this
problem of conflict, struggle,
22:43 turmoil, confusion in the human
mind and so in the human society,
22:50 we must go into this question
of what is thinking. Right?
22:54 Are we meeting together?
Please, shall we?
23:00 No, Sir, not only you
but all of us together.
23:08 We are asking: what is
thought, what is thinking?
23:16 Why has thought
made all this?
23:24 Why has thought brought
about marvellous medicine
23:32 and also why thought creates
wars and destroys human beings?
23:44 Why has thought
made God
23:55 and why has thought made
the image of God?
24:02 Thought has made
the image of God.
24:11 And also thought
has brought
24:13 such enormous conflict
between human beings,
24:18 between you and
your intimate friend,
24:24 intimate person, wife, husband,
boy and so on and so on.
24:33 Are you interested
in all this?
24:38 Or have you come here
to enjoy a rather cool morning,
24:44 sitting under the trees?
24:54 If you are really interested
- not in what is being said
25:03 but rather interested
to find out.
25:10 Interested to find out
for yourself
25:18 why has thought
done this,
25:23 what is the nature
of thought.
25:28 That means, together
we are looking into it.
25:38 That means you must
exercise your observation,
25:42 you must go into it
as alertly, keenly,
25:48 passionately as
the speaker is doing.
25:52 Not just sit there and
casually listen and go away.
25:59 This is not an entertainment,
this is a very serious affair.
26:12 So we are enquiring, talking
over together as two friends.
26:24 You can't talk together with so
many people but it's two people,
26:32 you and the speaker,
trying to find out
26:36 why thought has made
this confusion, this turmoil.
26:48 So thought is matter.
26:56 Thought is the response
of memory. Right?
27:05 If you had no memory
you wouldn't be able to think,
27:08 if you had no remembrance
of things past,
27:14 thought
wouldn't operate.
27:18 So thought
is the response of memory.
27:23 Memory is the outcome of various
experiences, multiple incidents,
27:35 accidents, which have been
accumulated as knowledge
27:41 - follow all this, sirs -
stored up in the brain.
27:49 And that experience, that
knowledge, which is memory,
27:57 and the reaction of that
memory is thinking. Right?
28:03 It's not what I'm saying - you
can discover it for yourself.
28:10 Right? Is that clear?
Can we go on from there?
28:16 That is,
through millennia,
28:20 we have acquired
different kinds of knowledge:
28:32 literary, scientific,
personal, experiences.
28:43 Those experiences
have become knowledge
28:48 both
scientific and personal.
28:55 That knowledge is stored
in the brain.
29:00 So that brain is not your knowledge,
it is the human knowledge.
29:08 I know we like to think that
it's my brain and your brain.
29:18 So this knowledge, experience
stored in the brain as memory,
29:28 must always be limited because
knowledge is never complete.
29:38 Right?
29:41 Can never be complete,
in any field.
29:50 So with knowledge
goes ignorance.
29:56 Therefore thought
is always limited, partial.
30:04 It can never be
30:08 Right?
30:12 Don't agree with me,
sirs, examine it.
30:21 So thought has created
this world of confusion
30:27 because in itself
it is limited. Right?
30:34 Thought, as we said,
is matter.
30:40 That thought can only
create matter, thing.
30:48 Right?
30:51 It can create illusions,
30:54 it can create
marvellous ideas,
30:58 utopias, marvellous systems,
31:11 but that very theory, that very
ideal, that very concept
31:20 by the theologians, or by the
historians, is always limited.
31:26 Right?
31:34 So our actions
are always limited.
31:42 Therefore our actions
are fragmented. Right?
31:50 Our action can never be complete
if it is based on thought.
31:59 Right, sirs?
32:07 If one realises that,
not as an idea
32:14 but as an actuality - you
understand the difference?
32:20 The idea and the actual.
32:26 You hear this statement, that
thought can never be complete,
32:34 whatever it creates
must be incomplete.
32:38 You hear that statement
and instinctively
32:43 you make an abstraction
of it into an idea.
32:48 You're following
all this?
32:53 Are we together in this?
32:55 An abstraction,
away from the fact.
33:00 So then the idea
becomes all-important.
33:06 And then you think, 'How am I
to carry out that idea?'
33:13 So there is again division
between action and idea.
33:28 Are we going too fast?
33:33 It's up to you.
33:37 So: observation without abstraction,
observation without analysis,
33:53 observation without
any form of conclusion.
33:59 Just to observe
the nature of thinking.
34:06 That is,
who is the observer
34:14 who is observing
the nature of thinking?
34:18 I wonder
if you see this.
34:22 You understand, sir?
34:25 Somebody
I must talk to.
34:30 Right?
34:32 Can I pick on somebody,
34:43 Right, sir, let's put
it this way.
34:46 One is very greedy,
self-centred. That's a fact.
34:59 Is greed
different from you?
35:06 You understand
my question?
35:10 You are greed!
35:15 But we have unfortunately
created an illusion, that is
35:23 greed and I will act, do something
about that greed. Right?
35:32 So there is a division between
greed and the actor
35:38 who will act upon greed.
Right? So is that a fact?
35:47 Or is it a pattern
which we have developed
35:54 to escape from the fact?
36:01 I wonder if you're
meeting all this.
36:04 That is, I am greedy,
36:12 I don't quite know how to resolve
this whole problem of greed
36:17 so I created its opposite,
36:24 and work with non-greed,
which is non-fact.
36:28 You're following
all this?
36:33 So we are saying,
the observer is the observed.
36:43 Right?
36:46 Right, sir? So there is
no division. Sir, look,
36:52 there is a division between the
Jew and the Arab, right?
36:59 Created by thought:
by racial prejudices,
37:06 by religious conditioning.
37:11 But they are living
on the same earth.
37:16 But they are all
fighting each other.
37:19 Now if you observe it
very carefully
37:22 the human mind is
conditioned as a Hindu,
37:26 as a Muslim, Arab, Jew,
Christian, non-Christian.
37:32 You follow? It has
been conditioned.
37:36 And that conditioning says,
'I'm different from you'.
37:42 Right?
37:44 And these differences
of conditioning, by thought,
37:51 encouraged by various people
for political, religious reasons,
38:01 and we hold on
to that division.
38:06 So where there is division
there must be struggle,
38:11 there must be conflict.
38:14 So when one realises
38:22 that greed is not separate
from me, I am greed,
38:29 then there is totally a different
movement taking place.
38:35 You're following this,
38:37 Are we meeting each other
in this point?
38:41 Gosh,
it seems so difficult.
38:43 Is it very complex,
what we're talking about?
38:47 Yes, sir?
38:50 Look at it, sir.
38:53 How will you meet
38:59 Human beings
are violent. Right?
39:02 We have cultivated
the opposite.
39:06 Right? The non-violence,
don't be violent,
39:09 be kind, be just,
be all the rest of it.
39:13 But basically
we are violent,
39:15 it still goes on,
after a million years.
39:21 Is that violence
different from you?
39:32 It's not, obviously.
You are violence!
39:37 Now can you observe
that fact
39:42 without making any kind
of idea about the fact?
39:54 Then what takes place?
You're following all this?
40:02 I'm violent.
As a human being I'm violent.
40:08 And I have lived with that
violence for a million years,
40:14 my brain
has formed the pattern
40:21 of not being violent
and yet violence.
40:28 And the pursuit of not being
violent is an escape from the fact.
40:38 And,
if I observe the fact,
40:44 is the fact of being violent
different from me,
40:49 my nature, my way of looking?
I am that. Right?
40:57 Do we agree?
41:00 Then, the conflict
which existed before
41:04 ends, doesn't it?
41:10 I wonder
if you see this.
41:13 The conflict of division between
violence and not being violent,
41:20 that's a conflict, but when
there is the realisation,
41:28 'I am conflict', not 'I am
different from conflict',
41:34 then that conflict ends.
41:39 And a totally different
action takes place.
41:53 So sir, our question is:
42:00 thought is
the movement in time.
42:08 Right?
42:13 Thought is based on memory,
which is the past,
42:18 the past with all its conclusions,
ideas, beliefs, images,
42:26 from that past
the present,
42:32 the past meets the present
and the future. Right?
42:36 There's a constant modification
going on. That is time.
42:42 Right?
42:44 There is not only
chronological time, by the watch,
42:50 by the day, night,
night and day
42:53 but also there is
psychological time. Right?
43:03 'I will be'.
43:07 When you say, 'I will be'
that is time.
43:12 'I must become something'
- that's time.
43:16 'I am not good but
I will be good',
43:24 that's time.
43:30 And time is also
thought. Right?
43:43 Time
as day and night,
43:48 time when you have to go
and catch the bus,
43:52 time to acquire knowledge,
to learn a language,
43:58 time to acquire any kind
of technological knowledge,
44:03 to act skilfully,
to earn a livelihood,
44:06 all that is time,
requires time.
44:14 Psychologically, inwardly, we have
also this idea of time. Right?
44:26 'I am not' but 'I will be'.
44:31 'I am confused, I'll go to the
analyst, he will help me'.
44:37 Time.
44:38 So psychologically we have
cultivated this idea of time.
44:51 Right?
44:57 So time is a movement
from here to there.
45:02 Psychologically also it's a
movement from here to there.
45:06 So thought is time.
45:11 Right?
45:15 This is important
to understand because
45:20 our brain is
the essence of time
45:32 and we've functioned
psychologically in that pattern.
45:39 'I will have pleasure'.
45:44 'I remember being happy, having
a marvellous experience,
45:49 this or that, and I must
have more'.
45:54 This constant becoming
is time.
46:03 Now we're asking
is that an actuality
46:09 or a fiction or an illusion,
46:18 Right, sir, are you
getting tired?
46:24 This is too much probably,
all this.
46:35 We're saying, time is necessary
in the acquisition of knowledge
46:48 of various kinds,
many kinds.
46:53 Now, is time necessary to end
something, psychologically?
47:02 You're following?
47:04 That is, psychologically,
I have fear.
47:11 Most human beings
have fear.
47:16 And they have had
this fear, psychologically,
47:19 probably from the very
beginning of time,
47:23 from the very beginning
of psychological time.
47:28 Right?
47:32 And we haven't
resolved it.
47:37 Not only are we frightened of
physical pain and so on, physically,
47:43 but psychologically also
47:47 we have great fears
of getting hurt,
47:51 getting bruised, wounded,
47:55 because from childhood
we have been hurt, and so on.
48:01 So our brain
functions in time.
48:11 And so it has never resolved
any of the problems.
48:17 I wonder
if you meet this.
48:23 If I say to myself,
'I will get over my fear'
48:32 actually
what takes place is
48:34 I'm still frightened
at the end of it.
48:38 I exercise will, control it,
escape from it and so on.
48:48 And so human beings have never
resolved this problem of fear.
48:57 And we are saying, as long as
we think in patterns of time
49:05 psychologically,
fear will continue.
49:14 Is this clear?
49:16 So, we are saying:
49:21 can this thing called fear
be ended immediately?
49:31 Now let me take
another example.
49:34 Fear is rather a complex problem
which we'll go into perhaps
49:38 tomorrow,
in another talk.
49:41 Take for instance dependence,
psychological dependence.
49:51 Human beings
have cultivated this
49:56 because they are afraid
to be alone,
50:00 they are afraid to be lonely,
they want comfort,
50:05 they feel sustained if they
depend on somebody.
50:12 Because in themselves
they are insufficient
50:17 psychologically, therefore
clinging to somebody,
50:21 a religious image, or a
personal image and so on,
50:26 clinging to somebody.
50:29 Now that has been the pattern
of the human mind,
50:37 cultivated through time.
50:41 The consequences of dependence
is fear, anxiety, jealousy,
50:47 hatred, antagonism,
all that follows.
50:52 In that pattern
we have lived. Right?
51:00 Now to end that pattern
immediately is the question.
51:09 Because the moment
you admit time, 'I will end it',
51:14 you have admitted
moving away from the fact.
51:19 Right?
51:23 The fact is,
one is dependent.
51:29 Now ,without admitting time,
you understand,
51:34 - 'I will get over it' -
end it, immediately.
51:40 You have broken the pattern
of time. You are following this?
51:49 Are you working as hard
as I am working for you?
51:54 That is, sir, observe
51:57 how you are dependent
on another, psychologically.
52:04 All the remembrance,
all the pictures,
52:07 the images and so on
- dependent.
52:12 And our brain has been used
to the pattern of time
52:18 because it has grown
with time.
52:24 So it has exercised
an act of will
52:30 - 'I will' - and that means
avoiding the fact.
52:41 Now when one understands,
not intellectually, or verbally
52:45 but actually sees the fact,
how the brain works in time
52:51 and therefore
never resolves,
52:54 and you see the urgency
of not depending,
52:59 it is ended!
53:07 When you end something,
a new thing begins.
53:17 Right?
53:19 Are we thinking together
53:23 or are you merely listening
to the talk of a speaker
53:31 and then saying, 'Yes,
53:33 I don't quite understand
what he's talking about.
53:38 He talks about
this and that'.
53:40 Which means, you really are not
thinking about the problem
53:45 which is your problem,
the problem of humanity,
53:55 the problem
which is to bring about
53:58 a totally different
kind of society.
54:11 So is it possible to end
your antagonism, your hatred,
54:22 your jealousy,
54:26 - you understand -
54:31 So that the brain has broken
the pattern, and can think
54:36 and can act and look and
observe totally differently.
54:40 I wonder
if you get this!
54:43 Sir, this is meditation.
You understand?
54:48 Not all the phoney stuff
that has been talked about.
54:56 To meditate,
which means to observe
55:01 how your mind operates
55:06 not what the psychologists have
told you how your mind operates,
55:12 Freud and all the
rest of the gang,
55:18 but to observe
for yourself
55:21 because you are
responsible for yourself,
55:25 for your body, for your mind,
for your thoughts.
55:35 So can you observe the whole
content of your consciousness?
55:44 You understand?
55:46 Am I making this
too difficult, sirs?
55:51 I don't know, would you
tell me a little bit?
55:54 Am I making this
too difficult?
56:02 Your consciousness is full of the
things that thought has created.
56:16 Right?
56:19 Your anxieties, your beliefs,
your gods,
56:23 your saviours, your
Krishna's - you follow?
56:29 All that has been created
by thought.
56:33 So your consciousness
is the essence of time.
56:39 By gosh,
do you get it?
56:43 And we are living,
functioning, acting in that.
56:51 And therefore there is never
a radical, psychological change.
57:01 And therefore society
can never be good.
57:10 Goodness is not
the opposite of bad. Right?
57:19 If it is,
it is not good.
57:23 Love is not
the opposite of hate. Right?
57:28 If it is,
it is still hate.
57:33 Right?
57:44 So sir, what time is it?
57:54 11:30, 12:30,
we better stop here.
58:01 We'll continue tomorrow,
if you all want to come.