Krishnamurti Subtitles

Psychological suffering

Ojai - 17 April 1982

Discussion with Scientists 2

0:05 The Nature of the Mind
0:13 Part Two
0:15 Psychological Suffering
0:23 This is one of a series of
dialogues between J Krishnamurti,
0:27 David Bohm, Rupert
Sheldrake, and John Hidley.
0:31 The purpose of these
discussions is to explore
0:34 essential questions
about the mind,
0:36 what is psychological
0:38 and what is required for
fundamental psychological change.
0:43 J Krishnamurti is a religious
philosopher, author, and educator,
0:48 who has written and given lectures
on these subjects for many years.
0:51 He has founded elementary
and secondary schools
0:54 in the United States,
England, and India.
0:57 David Bohm is professor
of theoretical physics
1:00 at Birkbeck College,
London University in England.
1:03 He has written numerous books
concerning theoretical physics
1:07 and the nature
of consciousness.
1:09 Professor Bohm and
Mr. Krishnamurti
1:11 have held previous
dialogues on many subjects.
1:14 Rupert Sheldrake is a biologist,
whose recently published book
1:18 proposes that learning in
some members of a species
1:21 affects the species
as a whole.
1:24 Dr. Sheldrake is presently
consulting plant physiologist
1:28 to the International Crops
Research Institute
1:30 in Hyderabad, India.
1:32 John Hidley is a psychiatrist
in private practice,
1:35 who has been associated
with the Krishnamurti school
1:38 in Ojai, California
for the past six years.
1:41 In the first dialogue the nature
of the self was discussed,
1:45 its relationship to suffering,
to society, and to religion.
1:49 Questions raised were,
can one discover or learn
1:53 about these relationships,
1:54 and is the need for psychological
security the root of the problem?
2:00 Today's discussion continues
with these questions.
2:04 H: We talked yesterday,
we started with the question of
2:07 the origin and nature
of psychological disorder,
2:10 and we suggested that it has
its roots in self-centred activity,
2:18 which is divisive and
conflictual in nature,
2:21 and that biologically such factors
as instinctual aggression
2:25 and dominance drives, the facts of
illness and death, all contribute.
2:30 I wondered if we could
start this morning, David,
2:32 by having you comment
on relationship
2:35 between these biological factors
and psychological security.
2:43 B: Yes, well, biologically,
if you begin with the animal,
2:48 you have all sorts of things
like fear, and anger,
2:51 and aggression,
and they're fairly simple.
2:54 They exist for a short period
while the fact is there,
2:58 and then they generally disappear,
leaving little trace.
3:03 There may be a few cases
in the higher animals
3:06 where there's
some memory,
3:08 but it's in man that the memory
becomes very significant,
3:11 remembering all these experiences
and anticipating the future,
3:16 you get a very different
sort of behaviour.
3:19 For example, with an animal,
he might have a bad experience
3:24 with another animal,
and shortly afterward
3:27 he'll be in fairly good
state of equilibrium,
3:29 but, say, we have a quarrel
between two groups,
3:33 as in Northern and
Southern Ireland,
3:35 this has been going on
for 350 years,
3:38 and there is a specific effort
to remember it
3:40 which you can see
going on.
3:43 And I think this is
the biggest difference.
3:48 H: Memory being the...
3:50 B: Yes, the effect of memory,
the consequences of memory.
3:53 You see, memory by itself would
obviously not cause any trouble,
3:56 because it's only
a fact, right?
3:59 But memory has consequences:
it may produce fear,
4:04 it may produce anger; it may produce
all sorts of disturbances,
4:09 to remember what did happen
and to anticipate what may happen.
4:13 S: You mean thinking about it?
B: Yes. Based on memory, right?
4:18 S: I mean, obviously the animal that's
been attacked by another animal
4:21 remembers in the sense that
when it sees the other animal again,
4:24 it's afraid. It probably
doesn't think about it in between.
4:28 B: Yes, it can't form an image,
I don't believe
4:30 that most animals can form images
of the other animals,
4:34 and I can base that on experience,
that I have seen dogs
4:38 fighting very hard,
and as soon as they turn the corner,
4:41 the dog sort of forgets
what happened.
4:44 He is disturbed but he doesn't know
why he is disturbed.
4:47 Now, if he could remember the other
dog after he turned the corner,
4:50 he could continue the struggle
over territory indefinitely.
4:54 So, the point about territory is,
the animal maintains it
4:58 in a certain limited
5:00 But man remembers it,
5:02 and he maintains this territory
5:05 and wants to extend it, and so on,
because of his thinking about it.
5:13 S: So, are you suggesting
that the basis of the specifically
5:17 human kind of pain
and suffering,
5:20 over and above the
kind of suffering
5:21 we see in the animal
5:23 is this ability to remember,
to brood over it, think about this?
5:27 B: Yes, the animal
may have some of that.
5:29 I've seen examples on television
of a deer who lost its doe,
5:33 and it was pining away in the wild,
but I think it's limited,
5:38 that is, there is some suffering
of that kind in the animal world,
5:40 but with man it's enormously
expanded, it seems limitless.
5:49 Yes, I think the major point is
that with man
5:51 the thing can build up
like a tremendous explosion
5:54 that fills his whole mind,
and it can become
5:57 the major motive in life,
to remember the insult
6:00 and to revenge
the vendetta,
6:05 in families over
many generations.
6:10 To remember the bad experience
you had with somebody
6:13 and to be frightened of what's
coming like the examination
6:17 that the child may be frightened of,
or something like that.
6:20 K: But have you answered
his question, sir?
6:22 B: Which is?
K: Which was...
6:24 H: How does the biological fact
of illness, or death,
6:29 or instinctual drive result in
a psychological problem or disorder?
6:35 B: By thinking about it.
I say that the biological fact
6:41 is not a serious problem,
in the long run,
6:46 but as soon as you begin
to think about it,
6:49 and not merely think about it,
but make images about it
6:52 along with that thought,
and to revive the memory
6:57 and anticipate the
feeling of the future,
7:01 and while you are thinking, then
it becomes a very serious problem,
7:04 because you can't
stop it, you see.
7:06 You will never attain security
by thinking about it,
7:11 but you are constantly
seeking security.
7:13 You see, the purpose of thinking
is to give you security
7:16 in practical affairs,
technical affairs.
7:20 Now, therefore you are doing
a similar sort of thinking
7:24 saying how can I be secure against
the possibility of suffering again?
7:33 And there is no way
to do that.
7:36 You may take technical steps
to make it unlikely,
7:38 but as you think about it, you
begin to stir up the whole system
7:45 and distort the whole
mental process.
7:48 H: Well, it seems clear
that by thinking about it
7:51 we stir up the emotions
and the associations
7:56 that are those thoughts,
but we're not suggesting
8:01 we shouldn't think
about it, are we?
8:03 B: Well, it depends on
how you think about it.
8:05 This thinking gets to be directed
toward giving you
8:10 a sense of security, you see,
an image of security.
8:15 H: Right. I get hurt when I'm little,
or some time along the line,
8:19 and it creates a fear in me, and
I anticipate that kind of situation.
8:24 I may not even remember
the incident,
8:26 but I want to avoid it
in the future.
8:29 B: Yes, and now, the point is this:
the mind is always searching
8:33 for how to avoid it, and
searching out thoughts, images,
8:37 saying, that fellow
is the one who did it,
8:39 I must keep away from him;
coming to conclusions,
8:43 and if any conclusion gives you
an image of security,
8:47 then the mind holds on
to it, right?
8:50 Without actually
any basis.
8:53 H: Could you elaborate
on that a little?
8:56 B: Well, if you have had
a bad experience with somebody,
9:02 you may conclude that you should
never trust him again, for example.
9:06 Although that might be
quite wrong.
9:09 But the mind is so anxious
to have security that it will
9:12 jump to the conclusion
that it's not safe to trust him.
9:17 Right?
H: Yes.
9:19 B: Now, if you find somebody else
who seems to treat you well,
9:23 and reassures you, and flatters you,
then you may
9:26 jump to the conclusion
you can completely trust him.
9:29 Now, the mind is now
looking for thoughts
9:32 that will give it
good feelings,
9:34 because the feelings of the memory
are so disturbing
9:38 to the whole system that its
first function is to make the mind
9:42 feel better, rather than
find out what is the fact.
9:45 H: Okay, so you're saying that at
this point the mind isn't interested
9:49 in what's true,
it's interested in getting secure.
9:51 B: Yes, it's so disturbed that
it wants to come to order first,
9:54 and it's adopting
a wrong way, as I see it.
9:58 H: The wrong way being?
10:00 B: To think about it
and try to find thoughts
10:02 that will make it
feel better.
10:04 H: So you're saying that thoughts
themselves in some sense
10:08 are taking the place of reality,
that the person is trying
10:14 to get certain thoughts in his head
that make him feel better.
10:16 B: Yes. And that's
10:24 S: What makes you think that
the primary drive is for security?
10:28 B: Oh, we discussed that yesterday,
of course, but I wouldn't be sure
10:34 that's the only primary drive,
but it's obvious, for the animal
10:37 it's a very important drive
to want security, right?
10:40 We also want pleasure,
I think that's another drive,
10:43 which are closely
10:47 S: But to come back to this question
of security, in its limited forms
10:51 security is clearly
one goal that we have.
10:53 People like to have houses
and have them secure, and cars,
10:58 and possessions, and bank
balances, and that kind of thing.
11:01 But there's this factor that
comes in, when you've got that,
11:05 there are two things, actually,
that come in, one is maybe
11:08 the fear that you'll lose it,
but the other is boredom
11:10 with the whole thing and the
craving for excitement and thrill.
11:13 And this doesn't seem to fit
within this model of this primary
11:17 and central craving
for security.
11:19 B: Well, that's why I said
it's only one of the drives, right?
11:23 That there's also the drive
toward pleasure, as an example,
11:26 much of what you said is included
in the drive toward pleasure, right?
11:29 S: I'm not so sure.
11:30 B: Excitement is pleasurable,
and people hope
11:33 for pleasure and excitement
rather than pain, as a rule.
11:37 S: But don't you think there's a
pleasure in itself in curiosity,
11:40 and there's a sense of freedom
in discovery that you can get
11:42 from certain kinds
of exploration,
11:44 which is neither just
straightforward pleasure,
11:47 it's not a repetitive kind
of pleasure, nor is it security.
11:50 B: Yes, well, I didn't want to say
that all our drives are caught
11:53 in this thing, I said that
if you think about them
11:57 and base them on memory,
then they are going
11:59 to get caught
in this problem.
12:01 Now, there may be a natural,
free interest in things
12:05 which could be enjoyable, and
that need not be a problem, right?
12:09 But if you were to become dependent
on it, and think about it, and say,
12:12 'If I don't have it I
become very unhappy,'
12:14 then it would be
a similar problem.
12:17 K: But could we go into the question,
what is security?
12:22 What does that
word convey?
12:28 Apart from physical
12:34 S: I would have said
12:38 K: Not to be hurt.
12:40 S: Not to be hurt at all,
not to be able to be hurt.
12:43 K: Not to be able to be hurt
and not to hurt.
12:48 Physically we are all hurt
one way or another
12:52 - operations, illness,
and so on, so on.
12:56 When you talk
about being hurt
12:58 are you talking about
psychological hurts?
13:05 H: Yes, I'm wondering
how it is that
13:10 when a person comes
into my office,
13:13 his complaint is
his psychological hurts.
13:18 K: How do you deal with it?
H: I try and...
13:21 K: Suppose, I come to you.
I am hurt from childhood.
13:24 H: Yes.
K: I am hurt
13:28 by the parents, school,
college, university.
13:34 H: Yes.
13:36 K: When I get married
she says something, I am hurt.
13:39 So, this whole living process
seems to be a series of hurts.
13:44 H: It seems to build up
a structure of self that is hurt,
13:49 and a perception of reality
that is inflicting hurt.
13:52 K: Yes. Now, how do
you deal with it?
14:03 H: I try to help you see
how you're doing it.
14:07 K: What do you mean,
how I'm doing it?
14:09 H: Well, for example, if you
have built up in you the notion
14:16 that you're one down,
14:22 or that you're
the victim,
14:24 then you perceive yourself
to be victimised,
14:27 and you perceive the
world to be a victimiser.
14:31 And I help you realise that
that's what you're doing.
14:35 K: But by showing me that,
will I get rid of my hurt?
14:43 My hurts, very deep
unconscious hurts that I have
14:50 make me do all kinds
of peculiar actions,
14:53 neurotic, isolating
14:58 H: Yes.
15:01 It appears that
people get better,
15:04 that they realise
that they are doing it.
15:08 And in some local area
it seems to help.
15:11 K: No, but aren't you concerned,
if I may ask,
15:17 with not being able
to hurt at all?
15:23 H: Yes.
15:24 B: What do you mean by that,
not hurting somebody else
15:26 or not hurting...
not bing hurt inside of you.
15:29 K: I may hurt others
unconsciously, unwillingly,
15:35 but I wouldn't hurt
voluntarily somebody.
15:37 B: Yes, you really don't
intend to hurt anybody.
15:39 K: Yes. I wouldn't.
15:42 S: Well, maybe not, but I don't
see the connection between
15:45 not hurting other people
and not being hurt oneself.
15:49 At least I'm sure there must
be one, but it's not obvious.
15:52 And most people's view of the
best way not to be hurt would be
15:55 to be in such a position that
you can hurt others so much
15:58 they'd never dare. This is the
principle of nuclear retaliation,
16:02 and this is a very
common principle.
16:04 K: Yes, of course.
16:06 S: So it's not obvious
that not hurting others
16:08 is related to not
being hurt oneself.
16:10 In fact, usually it's taken
to be the reverse.
16:13 It's usually assumed that
if you're in a position
16:15 to hurt others very much
you'll be very secure.
16:18 K: Of course, I mean
if you're a king, or a sannyasi,
16:21 or one of those people who have
built a wall round themselves...
16:25 S: Yes.
16:26 K: ...naturally you can
never hurt them.
16:28 S: Yes.
16:30 K: But when they were children
they were hurt.
16:32 S: Yes.
16:34 K: That hurt remains.
It may remain superficially
16:40 or in the deep recesses
of one's own mind.
16:43 Now, how do you, as a psychologist,
psychotherapist, help another,
16:49 who is deeply hurt
and is unaware of it,
16:54 and to see if it is possible
not to be hurt at all?
16:59 H: I don't address the question about
is it possible to not be hurt at all.
17:02 That doesn't come up.
17:04 K: Why?
17:08 Wouldn't that be
a reasonable question?
17:12 H: Well, it seems to be
what we are asking here.
17:15 It is the essence of the question
that we're asking.
17:18 We ask it in terms of
particulars only in therapy,
17:22 and you're asking
it more generally,
17:24 is it possible
to end this hurt, period.
17:27 Not just a particular hurt
that I happen to have.
17:32 K: So, how should
we proceed?
17:35 H: Well, it would seem that the
structure that makes hurt possible
17:40 is what we have to get at.
What makes hurt possible
17:43 in the first place,
not this hurt or that hurt.
17:46 K: I think that's fairly simple.
Why am I hurt?
17:53 Because you say something to me
which is not pleasant.
17:57 H: Well, why should
that hurt you?
18:00 K: Because I have an image about
myself as being a great man.
18:04 You come along and tell me,
don't be an ass. And I get hurt.
18:10 H: What is it that's
being hurt there?
18:13 K: There, the image
which I have about myself.
18:17 I am a great cook,
18:19 a great scientist, a great
carpenter, whatever you will.
18:23 I have got that
picture in myself,
18:26 and you come along
and put a pin into it.
18:30 And that gets hurt.
18:32 The image gets hurt.
The image is me.
18:37 B: I feel that that will not be
terribly clear to many people.
18:41 How can I be an image,
many people will ask.
18:43 How can an image
get hurt,
18:45 because if an image is nothing
at all, why does it hurt?
18:49 K: Because I have invested
into that image a lot of feeling.
18:53 B: Yes.
18:55 K: A lot of ideas, emotions,
19:00 - all that is me,
that is my image.
19:03 H: It doesn't look like
an image to me though,
19:05 it looks like
something real.
19:08 K: Ah, of course,
for most people it's very real.
19:12 H: Yes.
19:13 K: But that is me,
the reality of that image is me.
19:17 H: Yes.
19:20 Well, can we get clear that
it's an image and not real?
19:24 K: Image is never real;
symbol is never real.
19:28 H: You're saying that
I'm just a symbol.
19:31 K: Perhaps.
H: That's a big step.
19:43 K: From that
arises the question
19:46 whether it's possible
not to have images at all.
19:54 S: Well, wait a minute. I don't think
we've clearly established
19:57 that I am an image.
20:00 K: Ah, let's go into it.
20:03 S: I mean, it's not entirely clear.
I mean, it's obvious
20:06 that to some extent
one is an image,
20:08 that when I have a feeling
about myself, and so on.
20:12 It's not entirely clear that
this is entirely unjustified.
20:17 You see, certain aspects of it
may be exaggerated,
20:19 certain aspects may be
unrealistic, but,
20:24 one approach would be,
we've got to remove, shave off
20:27 these unrealistic aspects, pare
it down to sort of reasonable size.
20:31 And then that which remains
would be the real thing.
20:33 K: So, sir, are you raising
the question, what am I?
20:37 S: Well, I suppose so,
20:39 K: Yes, basically.
20:42 What are you?
What is each one of us?
20:46 What is a human being?
20:48 That's the question
that's involved.
20:51 S: Yes, that seems
20:53 K: Yes. What am I?
20:58 I am the form, the physical form,
the name,
21:04 the result of all education.
H: Your experience.
21:09 K: My experiences,
my beliefs,
21:13 my ideals, principles,
21:16 the incidents that
have marked me.
21:22 H: The structures you've built up
that are how you function.
21:24 K: Yes.
H: Your skills.
21:26 K: My fears, my activities,
whether they are limited
21:29 or my so-called
affection, my gods,
21:34 my country,
my language,
21:39 fears, pleasures,
suffering - all that is me.
21:43 H: Yes.
21:45 K: That's my consciousness.
21:48 H: And your unconscious.
K: That's my whole content of me.
21:53 H: Okay.
21:56 B: But there's still that feeling
of actuality that me is there.
22:01 I mean, you may say,
you could reasonably argue
22:03 that that's all there is to me,
but when something happens
22:06 there's the feeling of its
actual presence, at that moment.
22:11 K: I don't quite
follow you there.
22:15 B: If somebody reacts
to being hurt or angry,
22:18 he feels at that moment
that there's more than that,
22:22 that there is something deep
inside which has been hurt, right?
22:29 K: I don't quite see.
22:32 My image can be
such a deep...
22:40 That's my image,
at all levels.
22:45 B: Yes, but how...
22:47 K: Wait, sir, I have an image
of myself, suppose,
22:51 that I am a great poet,
or a great painter,
22:54 or a great writer.
22:59 Apart from that image
as a writer,
23:01 I have other images
about myself.
23:04 I have an image
about my wife,
23:08 and she has an image
about me,
23:12 and there are so many images
I've built around myself;
23:17 and the image
about myself also.
23:21 So, I may gather a bundle of images.
B: Yes, I understand.
23:25 K: Partial.
B: Yes, you are saying that
23:27 there is nothing
but this bundle of images.
23:30 K: Of course!
B: But the question is
23:32 how are we to see this
as an actual fact?
23:34 K: Ah.
S: But wait a minute,
23:37 there is something
but this bundle of images.
23:39 I mean, I'm sitting
right here, now,
23:42 seeing you, and all the rest of it.
Now, I have the feeling
23:46 there's a centre of action
or centre of consciousness,
23:49 which is within my body
and associated with it,
23:52 which has a centre, and it's
not you, and it's not you,
23:55 and it's not David,
it's me.
23:57 And associated with this centre
of action, my body, sitting here,
24:02 is a whole lot of memories
and experiences,
24:04 and without those memories
I wouldn't be able to speak,
24:07 to talk, to recognise anything.
K: Of course, of course.
24:09 S: So, there seems to be some
substance to this image of myself.
24:14 There may be false images
associated with it,
24:16 but there seems to be a reality
which I feel as I sit here.
24:19 So it's not
entirely illusory.
24:21 K: Sir, are you saying
that you are totally,
24:24 basically different
from the three of us?
24:27 S: Well, I'm in a different place
and I have a different body.
24:30 K: Of course.
S: And in that sense I'm different.
24:32 K: Of course, I admit that,
I mean, you're tall, I'm short,
24:34 I'm brown, you're...
S: Yes.
24:36 K:, or you're white,
or you're pink, or whatever it is.
24:39 S: Now, at another level I'm not
basically different in the sense
24:43 that we can all speak the same
language and communicate,
24:45 so there's something in common.
And at a purely physical level
24:49 all of us have a lot in common
with each other,
24:51 the same kinds of enzymes,
chemicals, and so on.
24:54 And those indeed
- hydrogen atoms, oxygen atoms -
24:56 we have in common
with everything else.
24:58 K: Yes. Now, is your consciousness
different from the rest?
25:05 Consciousness, not bodily
responses, bodily reactions,
25:10 bodily conditioning,
25:16 is your consciousness,
that is your beliefs,
25:18 your fears,
your anxieties,
25:21 depressions, faith
- all that?
25:26 S: Well, I would say that many of
the contents of my consciousness
25:28 or many of the beliefs, desires,
etc. I have, other people also have.
25:33 But I would say the particular
combination of experiences,
25:36 memories, desires, etc. I have,
are unique, because I've had
25:39 a particular set of experiences,
as you have and as everyone has,
25:42 which makes a unique combination
of these different elements.
25:46 K: So, is mine unique?
S: Yes.
25:48 K: So is his?
S: Exactly.
25:50 K: The uniqueness makes it all common.
It's no longer unique.
25:56 S: That's a paradox.
It's not immediately clear.
26:01 B: Why isn't it clear?
Everybody's unique, right?
26:04 S: Yes, we're all unique.
K: I question that.
26:06 S: We're not unique
in the same way.
26:09 Otherwise the word 'unique'
becomes meaningless.
26:14 If we're unique, each of
us is unique, we have
26:17 a unique set of experiences,
environmental factors, memories, etc.
26:22 K: That's what you just now said,
that's common lot to all of us.
26:24 S: Yes, we all have it,
but what we have is different.
26:28 K: Yes, you brought up
in England,
26:31 and perhaps another brought up in
America, another brought up in Chile,
26:35 we all have different experiences,
different country,
26:41 different views, different
mountains, and so on.
26:44 S: Yes.
26:47 K: But apart from the physical
26:51 linguistic differences,
26:54 and accidents
of experience,
26:59 basically, fundamentally,
deep down,
27:02 we suffer, we are frightened
to death, we are anxious,
27:08 we have agony about something
or other, and conflict
27:14 - that's the ground
on which we all stand.
27:17 S: But that doesn't seem
a very startling conclusion.
27:20 K: No, it is not.
27:22 B: But I think, what you are saying
really implies that
27:27 what we have in common
is essential and fundamental
27:30 rather than
just superficial.
27:33 And now, I've talked with
people about this, and they say,
27:36 everybody agrees, we all
have these things in common,
27:38 but sorrow, suffering, and so on,
are not so important;
27:40 the really important point are
the higher achievements of culture
27:44 and things like that,
as an example.
27:48 H: Maybe the distinction is
between the form and the content.
27:51 Our contents are all different,
and they have similarities
27:54 and differences, but maybe the
form is the same, the structure.
27:59 K: I would say contents are
the same for all human beings.
28:03 S: But you see, I can recognise
that there is such a thing
28:06 as common humanity, but I would
regard that quite possibly
28:10 as an abstraction or a projection
rather than a reality.
28:14 How do I know
that is not an abstraction?
28:17 K: Because you go around the world,
you see people suffer,
28:25 you see human beings
in agony, despair, depression,
28:30 loneliness, lack of affection,
lack of care, attention,
28:39 that's the basic
human reactions,
28:44 that is part of
our consciousness.
28:47 S: Yes.
28:49 K: So, you are not
basically different from me.
28:54 You may be tall, you may be born
in England, I may be born in Africa,
29:00 I have a dark skin,
but deep down the river
29:06 the content of the river
is the water.
29:13 The river is not Asiatic river,
or European river, it is a river.
29:21 S: Yes, well that is clearly true
at some level.
29:23 But I am not quite sure
at what level, you see.
29:26 K: I am talking
basically, deeply.
29:31 S: But you see, it seems to me,
why stop there?
29:36 I can see something in common
with all other human beings,
29:39 but I can also
by looking at animals
29:41 see something
in common with them.
29:43 We have a great deal
in common with the animals.
29:45 K: Surely, surely.
S: So why stop at human beings?
29:47 K: I don't.
S: Why not say...
29:49 K: Because I say
if I feel...
29:54 I don't like the word
29:59 One feels that is the ground
on which all human beings stand.
30:08 Their relationship with nature,
animals, and so on,
30:13 and the content of our
consciousness is, again,
30:19 the ground of humanity.
30:25 Love is not English,
American, or Indian.
30:32 Hate is not,
30:36 agony is not yours
or mine, it is agony.
30:40 But we identify
ourselves with agony,
30:43 it is my agony,
which is not yours.
30:46 S: We might go through it
in very different ways though.
30:50 K: Different expressions, different
reactions, but basically it is agony.
30:56 Not German agony
and Asiatic agony.
31:01 It's not what is happening
- British and Argentine,
31:06 it is human conflict.
31:10 Why do we separate
ourselves from all this?
31:16 The British, the Argentine,
the Jew,
31:18 the Arab, the Hindu,
the Muslim.
31:20 You follow?
31:22 Which all seems
so nonsensical, tribal.
31:29 The worship of a
nation is tribalism.
31:32 So, why can't we
wipe out all that?
31:37 S: I don't know. You tell me,
why can't we?
31:40 K: Because, again, we have
come back to the question:
31:44 I identify with my nation, because
that gives me a certain strength,
31:49 certain standard, certain
status, certain security.
31:58 When I say,
'I am British'...
32:04 So, this division is one
of the reasons of war,
32:12 not only economic, social,
and all the rest of it.
32:14 Nationalism,
which is really
32:17 glorified tribalism,
is the cause of war.
32:20 Why can't we wipe that out?
It seems so reasonable.
32:28 H: It seems reasonable
on a level like nationalism;
32:32 people don't think
they are England.
32:35 K: Start from there.
H: Okay.
32:37 But then I have a patient,
and he does think that he is married
32:45 and that it is his wife.
K: Yes.
32:47 Of course,
it is his wife.
32:50 H: Well, isn't that the same action
that you are talking about?
32:53 K: No, no.
32:56 Sir, just let's go
into it slowly.
32:59 H: Okay.
33:02 K: Why do I want to identify myself
with something greater?
33:10 Like nationalism, like god.
33:14 H: Because I don't feel sufficient.
K: Which means what?
33:18 H: Insecure.
33:19 K: Insecure, insufficient,
lonely, isolated.
33:28 I have built a wall round myself.
H: Yes.
33:31 K: So, all this is making me
desperately lonely.
33:38 And out of that conscious
or unconscious loneliness
33:42 I identify with god,
with the nation, with Mussolini
33:47 - it doesn't matter - Hitler,
or any religious teacher.
33:52 H: Okay. Or I get married, I have
a job, I make a place for myself.
33:56 K: Yes.
H: And that's all also identification.
33:59 K: Yes. Why do we want
to identify with something?
34:05 No, the basic question is too,
why do we want roots?
34:10 H: To belong.
K: To belong,
34:14 which is also implied to become.
H: Yes.
34:21 K: So, this whole
process of becoming,
34:25 from childhood,
34:27 I am asked to become,
become, become.
34:31 From the priest to the bishop,
the bishop to the cardinal,
34:35 the cardinal to the pope.
34:37 And in the business world
it is the same.
34:40 In the spiritual world
it is the same.
34:45 I am this,
but I must become that.
34:48 H: Okay, what I am
is not sufficient.
34:50 K: Why do we want to become?
What is it that is becoming?
35:01 S: Any obvious reason
for wanting to become
35:04 is a feeling
of insufficiency,
35:06 inadequacy, in the state
that we are.
35:08 And one of the reasons for this is
that we live in an imperfect world,
35:14 our relations with other people
are imperfect.
35:18 We are not content for a variety
of reasons with the way we are.
35:21 So the way out of that
seems to become something else.
35:24 K: Yes. That means
escaping from 'what is.'
35:30 S: Yes. But it may seem
'what is' is something
35:32 we have a need
to escape from,
35:34 because there is
something wrong with it.
35:36 K: All right. Take the usual
experience. I am violent,
35:40 and I have invented
35:44 Right? And I am trying
to become that.
35:50 I'll take years to become that.
In the meantime I am violent.
35:55 So, I have never escaped from
violence. It is just an invention.
36:00 S: Well, you are trying
to escape from it.
36:04 You may escape
in the end.
36:06 K: No, I don't want to escape.
I want to understand
36:11 the nature of violence,
what is implied in it,
36:14 whether it is possible
to live a life
36:16 without any sense
of violence.
36:19 S: But what you are suggesting is a
more effective method of escaping.
36:22 You are not suggesting an
abandoning the idea of escaping.
36:25 You are suggesting that
the normal way of escaping,
36:28 trying to become
36:30 is one way of doing it
which doesn't work.
36:32 Whereas if you do
another method,
36:34 where you actually look at
the violence in a different way,
36:37 you can become non-violent.
K: I am not escaping.
36:40 S: Well, you are
changing then.
36:42 K: No. I am violent.
S: Yes.
36:45 K: I want to see what is the
nature of violence, how it arises.
36:50 S: But for what purpose?
36:51 K: To see whether it is possible
to be free of it completely.
36:55 S: But isn't that
a kind of escape from it?
36:57 K: No.
S: Being free of something...
36:59 K: not an escape.
S: Why not?
37:01 K: Avoidance, running away, fly
away from 'what is' is an escape,
37:07 but to say, look, this is
what I am, let's look at it,
37:11 let's observe what its content is.
That is not escape!
37:16 S: Oh, I see, the distinction you
are making is that if you run away,
37:19 and escape in a normal sense
is running away from something,
37:22 like escaping from prison,
or one's parents, or whatever,
37:26 but they still remain there.
What you are saying is that
37:29 rather than escaping
from violence,
37:31 which leaves violence
intact and still there,
37:34 and you try and distance
yourself from it,
37:36 you try to dissolve violence,
or abolish it.
37:39 K: Dissolve.
S: Yes.
37:41 K: Not abolish it, dissolve.
S: All right.
37:44 So this is different from escape,
because you are trying
37:47 to dissolve the thing
rather than run away from it.
37:51 K: Running away is...
Everybody runs away.
37:57 S: Well, it usually works,
to a limited extent.
37:59 K: No.
38:03 It's like running away from
my agony by going to football.
38:08 I come back home,
it is there!
38:12 I don't want to go
to watch football,
38:15 but I want to see
what violence is
38:19 and see if it is possible
to be completely free of it.
38:24 S: If I am in a very unpleasant
society and I can escape from it
38:28 by defecting, or leaving it
and going to another one.
38:31 And this does in fact mean
I escape to some extent.
38:34 K: Of course.
38:36 S: So these are always partial answers
and they are partially effective.
38:41 K: I don't want to
be partially violent.
38:44 Or partially
free from it.
38:46 I want to find out if it is possible
to totally end it.
38:52 That's not an escape,
that's putting my teeth into it.
38:56 S: Yes. But you have
to believe it is possible
39:00 in order to put
your teeth into it.
39:03 K: I don't know,
I am going to investigate.
39:05 I said, for me, I know
one can live without violence.
39:13 But that may be a freak, that may
be a biological freak, and so on.
39:20 But to discuss together,
the four of us and see
39:25 if we could be free of violence
completely, means not escaping,
39:31 not suppressing,
not transcending it,
39:37 and see what
is violence.
39:40 Violence is part of
imitation, conformity.
39:46 Right?
39:47 Apart from physical hurts,
I am not talking about that.
39:52 So, psychologically there is
this constant comparing,
39:58 that is part of hurt,
part of violence.
40:02 So, can I live
without comparison,
40:07 when from childhood I have
been trained to compare
40:10 myself with somebody?
40:12 I am talking comparison,
not good cloth and bad cloth.
40:16 H: Right. Talking
about comparing myself.
40:19 K: Myself with you who are bright,
who are clever,
40:23 who have got publicity.
40:26 When you say a word
the whole world listens.
40:29 And I can shout,
nobody cares.
40:32 So, I want to be
like you.
40:35 So, I am comparing constantly myself
with something I think is greater.
40:42 H: So, this is where becoming
comes from, this comparison.
40:45 K: That's just it. So, can I live
without comparison?
40:50 H: Doesn't that leave me
in an insufficient state?
40:53 K: No. To live without
comparison? No.
40:57 H: Here I start off
41:00 K: You understand, sir? Am I dull
because I compare myself with you,
41:04 who are bright?
H: Yes.
41:06 Yes, you are dull because
you compare yourself.
41:10 K: By comparing myself with you,
who are bright, who are clever,
41:14 I become dull. I think I am dull.
H: Yes.
41:17 K: But if I don't compare
I am what I am.
41:20 S: Well, you may not compare but I may
compare. I may say, 'You are dull'.
41:25 K: All right. I say, 'All right'.
You say I am dull. I say, 'Am I?'
41:30 I want to know
what does it mean.
41:32 Does it mean he is
comparing himself with me,
41:36 who is...
- you follow?
41:38 the reverse of it!
41:39 S: Very frustrating, that. Yes.
I mean, if one compared oneself
41:44 with somebody and said,
'You are dull',
41:47 and then they said, 'What does
dullness mean?'
41:53 K: The other day, after one
of the talks in England
41:57 a man came up to me and said,
'Sir, you are a beautiful old man,
42:01 but you are
stuck in a rut'.
42:04 I said, 'Well,
sir, perhaps, sir,
42:07 I don't know,
we'll go into it'.
42:08 So I went up to my room
and said, 'Am I?'
42:12 Because I don't want
to be stuck in a rut. I may be.
42:17 So, I went into it very, very
carefully, step by step, and found
42:23 what does a rut mean - to stick
in a groove along a particular line.
42:27 Maybe, so I watch it.
42:33 So, observation of a fact
is entirely different
42:38 from the escaping or
the suppression of it.
42:45 H: So, he says
you are stuck in a rut,
42:47 and you observe it,
you don't compare.
42:50 K: I don't. Am I in a rut?
I look. I may be stuck in a rut,
42:56 because I speak
43:00 I speak Italian
and French.
43:03 All right.
And that's not…
43:06 Am I psychologically, inwardly,
caught in a groove, like a tram car?
43:16 H: Just motivated by something
and not understanding it.
43:19 K: No, am I? I don't know, I am going
to find out. I am going to watch.
43:25 I am going to be terribly
attentive, sensitive, alert.
43:32 H: Now, this requires that you are not
reacting in the first place by saying
43:36 'No, that's horrible, I couldn't
possibly be stuck in a rut'.
43:39 K: I wouldn't.
You may be telling the truth.
43:50 H: To not have that reaction
you can't have that self there
43:53 that says, 'I am not the type
of person that is stuck in ruts'.
43:56 K: I don't know.
43:59 Sir, is there a learning
44:04 about oneself,
which is not...
44:10 - this leads to something
else, I mustn't go into it -
44:13 which is not constant
accumulation about myself?
44:23 I don't know if I am
making myself clear.
44:25 H: Yes.
44:28 K: I observe myself.
H: Yes.
44:31 K: And I have learnt from
that observation something.
44:36 And that something
is being accumulated
44:39 all the time
by watching.
44:41 I think that is not
learning about yourself.
44:44 H: Yes. It's being concerned with
what you think about yourself.
44:48 K: Yes, what you think
about yourself,
44:51 what you have gathered
about yourself.
44:53 H: Yes.
44:57 K: Like a river that is flowing,
you have to follow it.
45:03 That leads somewhere else.
Let's get back.
45:06 H: Maybe this is part of
the question we are asking,
45:08 because we start with
45:10 how does this disorder occur.
K: Yes, sir, let's stick to that.
45:15 H: It occurs because I have the image
of myself of someone who knows
45:19 he is not stuck in a rut.
I don't like to think
45:21 that I am stuck in a rut,
and somebody says, 'Yes, you are.'
45:25 K: But you may be.
45:27 H: Yes. I have to be
open to looking, to see.
45:30 K: Yes, to observe.
45:32 S: But then what about
this approach:
45:34 somebody says
I am stuck in a rut,
45:37 I look at myself and think,
'Yes, I am stuck in a rut'
45:41 and then I can respond by thinking,
what's wrong with that?
45:44 Everyone is stuck in a rut.
K: Sir, that's just blind.
45:47 S: No, you accept the fact,
but then you think,
45:51 'Why should I do
anything about it?'
45:53 What's wrong with that
as an approach?
45:55 K: Like a man stuck
as a Hindu, he is stuck.
45:59 He is then
contributing to war.
46:03 S: I may say, well, I am stuck
in a rut, but so is everybody,
46:07 it is the nature of humanity
to be stuck in ruts.
46:10 K: You see, that's it, you go off,
that is the nature of humanity.
46:14 But I question that.
46:17 If you say that is
the nature of humanity,
46:19 let's change it,
for god's sake!
46:22 S: But you may believe
it is unchangeable.
46:25 What reason have I for believing
that we can change it?
46:28 I may think that
I am stuck in a rut,
46:29 so are you,
so is everybody else.
46:31 And anyone who thinks they are not
is deceiving themselves.
46:34 K: It's cheating themselves.
I may cheat, so I begin to enquire
46:38 - am I cheating myself? I want
to be very honest about it.
46:43 I don't want to cheat,
I don't want to be a hypocrite.
46:46 S: You may not be a hypocrite,
you may think, 'I am stuck in a rut',
46:49 and you may be
a pessimist.
46:51 The alternative to being
a hypocrite is a pessimist.
46:54 K: No, I am neither a
pessimist nor an optimist.
46:57 I say, 'Look, am
I stuck in a rut?'
47:01 I watch all day.
47:04 S: And you perhaps conclude, 'Yes'.
But then you can take
47:08 the pessimistic cause and say,
'Yes, I am, but so what?'
47:14 K: If you prefer that
way of living, go ahead.
47:18 But I don't want
to live that way.
47:22 H: Well, the person
who comes into therapy
47:25 usually comes with both sides
going on at the same time.
47:28 He says that I have this problem
which I want to be free of,
47:33 I don't want to be stuck in a rut;
on the other hand,
47:36 when it gets down to really
looking at that, he doesn't want
47:39 to look at it either,
because it becomes uncomfortable.
47:43 K: Of course. So, to come back
to your original question,
47:50 the world is in disorder,
human beings are in disorder,
47:57 and we described
what is disorder.
48:00 And is there a possibility
to live free from disorder?
48:07 That is the real
basic question.
48:14 We said as long as there is
this divisive process of life
48:21 - I am a Hindu,
you are an Arab,
48:25 I am a Buddhist,
you are a Muslim,
48:27 I am British,
you are an Argentine -
48:31 there must be
conflict, war.
48:35 My son is going
to be killed, for what?
48:39 H: For as long as I identify
on a personal level with my job,
48:42 or with my family, and so on,
there will be pain.
48:46 K: Of course.
H: It is the same process.
48:48 K: So, is it possible to have, without
identification, responsibility?
48:56 H: If I am not identified
will I even go to work?
48:59 K: But I am responsible
for the lady whom I am married.
49:08 Responsible in the sense that I
have to look after her, care for her,
49:13 and she has to care for me.
Responsibility means order.
49:20 But we have become
totally irresponsible
49:24 by isolating ourselves
- British, French.
49:27 H: We handle the problem of
responsibility by developing a rut
49:31 that we can work in.
K: Yes. That's it.
49:33 H: And staying
inside that.
49:40 K: If I see the fact
that responsibility is order
49:47 - I am responsible to
keep this house clean -
49:53 but as we all live on this earth,
it is our earth, not British earth,
49:57 and French earth, and German earth,
it is our earth to live on.
50:06 And we have
divided ourselves,
50:10 because in this division
we think there is security.
50:14 H: There is stability
and security.
50:16 K: Security. Which is
no security at all.
50:21 H: Well, it isn't clear, we have got
to go slow, because
50:24 I think that my job is security,
I think that my family is security.
50:29 K: You may lose it.
50:31 H: That problem
keeps coming up.
50:32 K: There is great unemployment
in America and in England,
50:37 three million people
unemployed in England.
50:39 H: Or maybe I could get by
without my job, but I need to think
50:42 that I have some
self respect.
50:45 K: What do you
mean, self respect?
50:47 H: What I am trying to say
is that there is some place
50:50 at which I put
an identification.
50:52 K: Why should I want to identify
with anything, sir?
50:58 That makes
immediate isolation.
51:04 H: For stability's sake.
51:08 K: Does isolation
bring about stability?
51:12 H: It gives one a sense of
something hard and firm.
51:15 K: Does it? Has it?
51:24 We have had for the last
five thousand years
51:30 nearly five thousands wars.
Is that stability?
51:34 H: No.
51:35 K: Why don't we accept...
51:37 I won't go into all that.
What is wrong with us?
51:41 H: Well, why don't we see this thing?
You are saying that
51:44 the root of the problem is
that I continue to identify
51:47 with one thing after another,
if one doesn't work I just find
51:50 something else.
I don't stop identifying.
51:52 K: Yes, sir,
which breeds isolation.
51:56 H: But in your example about the
person that is stuck in a rut,
52:01 you say, 'I don't have to identify,
I can just step back
52:04 and look at this thing,
and see if it is true'.
52:07 K: Yes.
52:08 H: So, you are suggesting
that there is something
52:10 that is not identified,
something that is free to look.
52:15 K: No. This leads
to something else.
52:18 Why do I want
to identify myself?
52:22 Probably, basically,
the desire to be secure,
52:29 to be safe,
to be protected.
52:33 And that sense
gives me strength.
52:37 H: Strength, and
purpose, direction.
52:40 K: It gives me strength.
H: Yes.
52:43 S: But this is a biological fact.
It is not merely an illusion.
52:47 And if we again, to come back to
the animal kingdom, we see it there
52:51 - deer go round in flocks, birds
have flocks, bees have hives
52:56 and they are identified with
the hive in which they work.
52:58 K: But bees don't kill themselves,
species don't kill themselves.
53:04 S: Well, they kill other, they kill
other bees that invade their hive.
53:08 They don't commit suicide.
They kill others.
53:10 K: But we are!
53:12 S: Yes and no, bees do fight other
bees that come into the hive.
53:16 K: Of course. Yes, I know,
I've raised bees, I know.
53:19 S: So, we see even in the animal
kingdom this identification
53:25 with the group,
in the social animals,
53:27 and many social animals,
and we are social animals.
53:29 K: Just a minute.
53:32 Are we by identifying
ourselves with India,
53:36 or China, or Germany,
is that giving us security?
53:43 S: To a limited extent it is.
K: A limited extent.
53:45 S: And by identifying ourselves
with our families does,
53:48 because this whole question
of responsibility
53:51 seems closely
linked to it.
53:53 If I identify myself
with my family,
53:57 feel duties towards them,
protect - if my sister's insulted,
54:01 I rush to her defence, and make
a big fuss about it, and threaten,
54:05 if not actually kill, the people
who insulted her.
54:07 K: We have no sisters.
S: Yes, fortunately not.
54:13 S: So, if I protect members
of my family and defend,
54:19 rush to their defence,
so an insult to them
54:21 or an attack on them is an insult
to me, so I rush to their defence.
54:24 K: Of course.
54:25 S: There is a reciprocal
obligation on their part,
54:27 if I fall ill or sick they'll
feed me and look after me,
54:31 if I get arrested by
the police they will try
54:33 and get me out
of prison, and so on.
54:35 So, it does give me a kind of
security, it actually works.
54:37 K: Of course.
54:39 S: And that is a very good reason
for doing it, for most people.
54:41 K: But stretch it further from
the family, to the community,
54:46 from the community to
the nation, and so on,
54:48 that is a vast
process of isolating.
54:54 You are English, I am German,
and we are at each other's throat.
54:59 And I say, for god's sake,
this is so damn stupid!
55:04 S: Well, it is not entirely
stupid because it works
55:07 to a certain extent.
K: This is most impractical.
55:09 It may work, but it's impractical,
it is killing each other.
55:14 S: But we haven't killed each other
yet, there are more human beings
55:16 than there have ever been before.
So the system so far
55:20 has gone to the point where we
are far from killing each other,
55:23 we have actually got to
the point where we have got
55:25 a bigger population than
the world has ever seen.
55:29 So, the system works only
too well, for some reason.
55:33 K: So, you propose
war to kill them off?
55:37 S: No!
55:40 But there is some aspect of it
that does work, and some security
55:44 that is genuine that
these things confer.
55:46 K: Yes, sir. At a certain
level, identification
55:51 has a certain importance.
55:53 But at a higher level,
55:56 if you can call it higher,
it becomes dangerous.
56:00 That's all we are saying.
56:02 Of course, if you are my brother
you look after me.
56:08 B: It is very hard
to draw the line,
56:10 you see, that
starts spreading out.
56:13 K: That's right, spreading out.
B: You know, it slips.
56:16 K: That's is what
I am so objecting to.
56:19 S: But you see, the question is
where do you draw the line,
56:21 because if you are my brother,
then you have the tribal,
56:24 the clan, or in India,
the caste.
56:26 K: That's it. Extend it.
56:28 And then we say,
'I am Argentine,
56:32 you are British, he's French',
56:35 economically, socially, culturally,
we are murdering each other.
56:39 And I say,
that is so insane!
56:44 S: But where do you
draw the line?
56:46 If you say the nation state is wrong,
then what is wrong with the tribe
56:49 or the caste, then you have
got conflict between those.
56:53 We've got conflict between families.
K: I wouldn't draw the line.
56:55 I say, I am responsible
as a human being
56:59 for what is happening
in the world,
57:03 because I am a human.
57:06 And so what is happening in the
world is this terrible division,
57:10 and I won't be a Hindu,
57:12 I won't be a Catholic,
Protestant, Buddhist - nothing.
57:18 If there were a hundred people
or a thousand people like that
57:21 they would begin
to do something.
57:26 H: So you are saying that
the problem comes up,
57:28 because I mistake
my local security,
57:32 I think that it rests
in some local identification.
57:35 K: Yes, sir,
which is isolation.
57:39 And therefore in isolation
there is no security.
57:45 And therefore
there is no order.