Psychological suffering
Ojai - 17 April 1982
Discussion with Scientists 2
0:05 | The Nature of the Mind |
0:13 | Part Two |
0:15 | Psychological Suffering |
0:23 | This is one of a series of |
dialogues between J Krishnamurti, | |
0:27 | David Bohm, Rupert |
Sheldrake, and John Hidley. | |
0:31 | The purpose of these |
discussions is to explore | |
0:34 | essential questions |
about the mind, | |
0:36 | what is psychological |
disorder, | |
0:38 | and what is required for |
fundamental psychological change. | |
0:43 | J Krishnamurti is a religious |
philosopher, author, and educator, | |
0:48 | who has written and given lectures |
on these subjects for many years. | |
0:51 | He has founded elementary |
and secondary schools | |
0:54 | in the United States, |
England, and India. | |
0:57 | David Bohm is professor |
of theoretical physics | |
1:00 | at Birkbeck College, |
London University in England. | |
1:03 | He has written numerous books |
concerning theoretical physics | |
1:07 | and the nature |
of consciousness. | |
1:09 | Professor Bohm and |
Mr. Krishnamurti | |
1:11 | have held previous |
dialogues on many subjects. | |
1:14 | Rupert Sheldrake is a biologist, |
whose recently published book | |
1:18 | proposes that learning in |
some members of a species | |
1:21 | affects the species |
as a whole. | |
1:24 | Dr. Sheldrake is presently |
consulting plant physiologist | |
1:28 | to the International Crops |
Research Institute | |
1:30 | in Hyderabad, India. |
1:32 | John Hidley is a psychiatrist |
in private practice, | |
1:35 | who has been associated |
with the Krishnamurti school | |
1:38 | in Ojai, California |
for the past six years. | |
1:41 | In the first dialogue the nature |
of the self was discussed, | |
1:45 | its relationship to suffering, |
to society, and to religion. | |
1:49 | Questions raised were, |
can one discover or learn | |
1:53 | about these relationships, |
1:54 | and is the need for psychological |
security the root of the problem? | |
2:00 | Today's discussion continues |
with these questions. | |
2:04 | H: We talked yesterday, |
we started with the question of | |
2:07 | the origin and nature |
of psychological disorder, | |
2:10 | and we suggested that it has |
its roots in self-centred activity, | |
2:18 | which is divisive and |
conflictual in nature, | |
2:21 | and that biologically such factors |
as instinctual aggression | |
2:25 | and dominance drives, the facts of |
illness and death, all contribute. | |
2:30 | I wondered if we could |
start this morning, David, | |
2:32 | by having you comment |
on relationship | |
2:35 | between these biological factors |
and psychological security. | |
2:43 | B: Yes, well, biologically, |
if you begin with the animal, | |
2:48 | you have all sorts of things |
like fear, and anger, | |
2:51 | and aggression, |
and they're fairly simple. | |
2:54 | They exist for a short period |
while the fact is there, | |
2:58 | and then they generally disappear, |
leaving little trace. | |
3:03 | There may be a few cases |
in the higher animals | |
3:06 | where there's |
some memory, | |
3:08 | but it's in man that the memory |
becomes very significant, | |
3:11 | remembering all these experiences |
and anticipating the future, | |
3:16 | you get a very different |
sort of behaviour. | |
3:19 | For example, with an animal, |
he might have a bad experience | |
3:24 | with another animal, |
and shortly afterward | |
3:27 | he'll be in fairly good |
state of equilibrium, | |
3:29 | but, say, we have a quarrel |
between two groups, | |
3:33 | as in Northern and |
Southern Ireland, | |
3:35 | this has been going on |
for 350 years, | |
3:38 | and there is a specific effort |
to remember it | |
3:40 | which you can see |
going on. | |
3:43 | And I think this is |
the biggest difference. | |
3:48 | H: Memory being the... |
3:50 | B: Yes, the effect of memory, |
the consequences of memory. | |
3:53 | You see, memory by itself would |
obviously not cause any trouble, | |
3:56 | because it's only |
a fact, right? | |
3:59 | But memory has consequences: |
it may produce fear, | |
4:04 | it may produce anger; it may produce |
all sorts of disturbances, | |
4:09 | to remember what did happen |
and to anticipate what may happen. | |
4:13 | S: You mean thinking about it? |
B: Yes. Based on memory, right? | |
4:18 | S: I mean, obviously the animal that's |
been attacked by another animal | |
4:21 | remembers in the sense that |
when it sees the other animal again, | |
4:24 | it's afraid. It probably |
doesn't think about it in between. | |
4:28 | B: Yes, it can't form an image, |
I don't believe | |
4:30 | that most animals can form images |
of the other animals, | |
4:34 | and I can base that on experience, |
that I have seen dogs | |
4:38 | fighting very hard, |
and as soon as they turn the corner, | |
4:41 | the dog sort of forgets |
what happened. | |
4:44 | He is disturbed but he doesn't know |
why he is disturbed. | |
4:47 | Now, if he could remember the other |
dog after he turned the corner, | |
4:50 | he could continue the struggle |
over territory indefinitely. | |
4:54 | So, the point about territory is, |
the animal maintains it | |
4:58 | in a certain limited |
context. | |
5:00 | But man remembers it, |
5:02 | and he maintains this territory |
indefinitely | |
5:05 | and wants to extend it, and so on, |
because of his thinking about it. | |
5:13 | S: So, are you suggesting |
that the basis of the specifically | |
5:17 | human kind of pain |
and suffering, | |
5:20 | over and above the |
kind of suffering | |
5:21 | we see in the animal |
kingdom, | |
5:23 | is this ability to remember, |
to brood over it, think about this? | |
5:27 | B: Yes, the animal |
may have some of that. | |
5:29 | I've seen examples on television |
of a deer who lost its doe, | |
5:33 | and it was pining away in the wild, |
but I think it's limited, | |
5:38 | that is, there is some suffering |
of that kind in the animal world, | |
5:40 | but with man it's enormously |
expanded, it seems limitless. | |
5:49 | Yes, I think the major point is |
that with man | |
5:51 | the thing can build up |
like a tremendous explosion | |
5:54 | that fills his whole mind, |
and it can become | |
5:57 | the major motive in life, |
to remember the insult | |
6:00 | and to revenge |
the vendetta, | |
6:05 | in families over |
many generations. | |
6:10 | To remember the bad experience |
you had with somebody | |
6:13 | and to be frightened of what's |
coming like the examination | |
6:17 | that the child may be frightened of, |
or something like that. | |
6:20 | K: But have you answered |
his question, sir? | |
6:22 | B: Which is? |
K: Which was... | |
6:24 | H: How does the biological fact |
of illness, or death, | |
6:29 | or instinctual drive result in |
a psychological problem or disorder? | |
6:35 | B: By thinking about it. |
I say that the biological fact | |
6:41 | is not a serious problem, |
in the long run, | |
6:46 | but as soon as you begin |
to think about it, | |
6:49 | and not merely think about it, |
but make images about it | |
6:52 | along with that thought, |
and to revive the memory | |
6:57 | and anticipate the |
feeling of the future, | |
7:01 | and while you are thinking, then |
it becomes a very serious problem, | |
7:04 | because you can't |
stop it, you see. | |
7:06 | You will never attain security |
by thinking about it, | |
7:11 | but you are constantly |
seeking security. | |
7:13 | You see, the purpose of thinking |
is to give you security | |
7:16 | in practical affairs, |
technical affairs. | |
7:20 | Now, therefore you are doing |
a similar sort of thinking | |
7:24 | saying how can I be secure against |
the possibility of suffering again? | |
7:33 | And there is no way |
to do that. | |
7:36 | You may take technical steps |
to make it unlikely, | |
7:38 | but as you think about it, you |
begin to stir up the whole system | |
7:45 | and distort the whole |
mental process. | |
7:48 | H: Well, it seems clear |
that by thinking about it | |
7:51 | we stir up the emotions |
and the associations | |
7:56 | that are those thoughts, |
but we're not suggesting | |
8:01 | we shouldn't think |
about it, are we? | |
8:03 | B: Well, it depends on |
how you think about it. | |
8:05 | This thinking gets to be directed |
toward giving you | |
8:10 | a sense of security, you see, |
an image of security. | |
8:15 | H: Right. I get hurt when I'm little, |
or some time along the line, | |
8:19 | and it creates a fear in me, and |
I anticipate that kind of situation. | |
8:24 | I may not even remember |
the incident, | |
8:26 | but I want to avoid it |
in the future. | |
8:29 | B: Yes, and now, the point is this: |
the mind is always searching | |
8:33 | for how to avoid it, and |
searching out thoughts, images, | |
8:37 | saying, that fellow |
is the one who did it, | |
8:39 | I must keep away from him; |
coming to conclusions, | |
8:43 | and if any conclusion gives you |
an image of security, | |
8:47 | then the mind holds on |
to it, right? | |
8:50 | Without actually |
any basis. | |
8:53 | H: Could you elaborate |
on that a little? | |
8:56 | B: Well, if you have had |
a bad experience with somebody, | |
9:02 | you may conclude that you should |
never trust him again, for example. | |
9:06 | Although that might be |
quite wrong. | |
9:09 | But the mind is so anxious |
to have security that it will | |
9:12 | jump to the conclusion |
that it's not safe to trust him. | |
9:17 | Right? |
H: Yes. | |
9:19 | B: Now, if you find somebody else |
who seems to treat you well, | |
9:23 | and reassures you, and flatters you, |
then you may | |
9:26 | jump to the conclusion |
you can completely trust him. | |
9:29 | Now, the mind is now |
looking for thoughts | |
9:32 | that will give it |
good feelings, | |
9:34 | because the feelings of the memory |
are so disturbing | |
9:38 | to the whole system that its |
first function is to make the mind | |
9:42 | feel better, rather than |
find out what is the fact. | |
9:45 | H: Okay, so you're saying that at |
this point the mind isn't interested | |
9:49 | in what's true, |
it's interested in getting secure. | |
9:51 | B: Yes, it's so disturbed that |
it wants to come to order first, | |
9:54 | and it's adopting |
a wrong way, as I see it. | |
9:58 | H: The wrong way being? |
10:00 | B: To think about it |
and try to find thoughts | |
10:02 | that will make it |
feel better. | |
10:04 | H: So you're saying that thoughts |
themselves in some sense | |
10:08 | are taking the place of reality, |
that the person is trying | |
10:14 | to get certain thoughts in his head |
that make him feel better. | |
10:16 | B: Yes. And that's |
self-deception. | |
10:24 | S: What makes you think that |
the primary drive is for security? | |
10:28 | B: Oh, we discussed that yesterday, |
of course, but I wouldn't be sure | |
10:34 | that's the only primary drive, |
but it's obvious, for the animal | |
10:37 | it's a very important drive |
to want security, right? | |
10:40 | We also want pleasure, |
I think that's another drive, | |
10:43 | which are closely |
related. | |
10:47 | S: But to come back to this question |
of security, in its limited forms | |
10:51 | security is clearly |
one goal that we have. | |
10:53 | People like to have houses |
and have them secure, and cars, | |
10:58 | and possessions, and bank |
balances, and that kind of thing. | |
11:01 | But there's this factor that |
comes in, when you've got that, | |
11:05 | there are two things, actually, |
that come in, one is maybe | |
11:08 | the fear that you'll lose it, |
but the other is boredom | |
11:10 | with the whole thing and the |
craving for excitement and thrill. | |
11:13 | And this doesn't seem to fit |
within this model of this primary | |
11:17 | and central craving |
for security. | |
11:19 | B: Well, that's why I said |
it's only one of the drives, right? | |
11:23 | That there's also the drive |
toward pleasure, as an example, | |
11:26 | much of what you said is included |
in the drive toward pleasure, right? | |
11:29 | S: I'm not so sure. |
11:30 | B: Excitement is pleasurable, |
and people hope | |
11:33 | for pleasure and excitement |
rather than pain, as a rule. | |
11:37 | S: But don't you think there's a |
pleasure in itself in curiosity, | |
11:40 | and there's a sense of freedom |
in discovery that you can get | |
11:42 | from certain kinds |
of exploration, | |
11:44 | which is neither just |
straightforward pleasure, | |
11:47 | it's not a repetitive kind |
of pleasure, nor is it security. | |
11:50 | B: Yes, well, I didn't want to say |
that all our drives are caught | |
11:53 | in this thing, I said that |
if you think about them | |
11:57 | and base them on memory, |
then they are going | |
11:59 | to get caught |
in this problem. | |
12:01 | Now, there may be a natural, |
free interest in things | |
12:05 | which could be enjoyable, and |
that need not be a problem, right? | |
12:09 | But if you were to become dependent |
on it, and think about it, and say, | |
12:12 | 'If I don't have it I |
become very unhappy,' | |
12:14 | then it would be |
a similar problem. | |
12:17 | K: But could we go into the question, |
what is security? | |
12:22 | What does that |
word convey? | |
12:28 | Apart from physical |
security. | |
12:34 | S: I would have said |
invulnerability. | |
12:38 | K: Not to be hurt. |
12:40 | S: Not to be hurt at all, |
not to be able to be hurt. | |
12:43 | K: Not to be able to be hurt |
and not to hurt. | |
12:48 | Physically we are all hurt |
one way or another | |
12:52 | - operations, illness, |
and so on, so on. | |
12:56 | When you talk |
about being hurt | |
12:58 | are you talking about |
psychological hurts? | |
13:05 | H: Yes, I'm wondering |
how it is that | |
13:10 | when a person comes |
into my office, | |
13:13 | his complaint is |
his psychological hurts. | |
13:18 | K: How do you deal with it? |
H: I try and... | |
13:21 | K: Suppose, I come to you. |
I am hurt from childhood. | |
13:24 | H: Yes. |
K: I am hurt | |
13:28 | by the parents, school, |
college, university. | |
13:34 | H: Yes. |
13:36 | K: When I get married |
she says something, I am hurt. | |
13:39 | So, this whole living process |
seems to be a series of hurts. | |
13:44 | H: It seems to build up |
a structure of self that is hurt, | |
13:49 | and a perception of reality |
that is inflicting hurt. | |
13:52 | K: Yes. Now, how do |
you deal with it? | |
14:03 | H: I try to help you see |
how you're doing it. | |
14:07 | K: What do you mean, |
how I'm doing it? | |
14:09 | H: Well, for example, if you |
have built up in you the notion | |
14:16 | that you're one down, |
14:22 | or that you're |
the victim, | |
14:24 | then you perceive yourself |
to be victimised, | |
14:27 | and you perceive the |
world to be a victimiser. | |
14:31 | And I help you realise that |
that's what you're doing. | |
14:35 | K: But by showing me that, |
will I get rid of my hurt? | |
14:43 | My hurts, very deep |
unconscious hurts that I have | |
14:50 | make me do all kinds |
of peculiar actions, | |
14:53 | neurotic, isolating |
myself. | |
14:58 | H: Yes. |
15:01 | It appears that |
people get better, | |
15:04 | that they realise |
that they are doing it. | |
15:08 | And in some local area |
it seems to help. | |
15:11 | K: No, but aren't you concerned, |
if I may ask, | |
15:17 | with not being able |
to hurt at all? | |
15:23 | H: Yes. |
15:24 | B: What do you mean by that, |
not hurting somebody else | |
15:26 | or not hurting... |
not bing hurt inside of you. | |
15:29 | K: I may hurt others |
unconsciously, unwillingly, | |
15:35 | but I wouldn't hurt |
voluntarily somebody. | |
15:37 | B: Yes, you really don't |
intend to hurt anybody. | |
15:39 | K: Yes. I wouldn't. |
15:42 | S: Well, maybe not, but I don't |
see the connection between | |
15:45 | not hurting other people |
and not being hurt oneself. | |
15:49 | At least I'm sure there must |
be one, but it's not obvious. | |
15:52 | And most people's view of the |
best way not to be hurt would be | |
15:55 | to be in such a position that |
you can hurt others so much | |
15:58 | they'd never dare. This is the |
principle of nuclear retaliation, | |
16:02 | and this is a very |
common principle. | |
16:04 | K: Yes, of course. |
16:06 | S: So it's not obvious |
that not hurting others | |
16:08 | is related to not |
being hurt oneself. | |
16:10 | In fact, usually it's taken |
to be the reverse. | |
16:13 | It's usually assumed that |
if you're in a position | |
16:15 | to hurt others very much |
you'll be very secure. | |
16:18 | K: Of course, I mean |
if you're a king, or a sannyasi, | |
16:21 | or one of those people who have |
built a wall round themselves... | |
16:25 | S: Yes. |
16:26 | K: ...naturally you can |
never hurt them. | |
16:28 | S: Yes. |
16:30 | K: But when they were children |
they were hurt. | |
16:32 | S: Yes. |
16:34 | K: That hurt remains. |
It may remain superficially | |
16:40 | or in the deep recesses |
of one's own mind. | |
16:43 | Now, how do you, as a psychologist, |
psychotherapist, help another, | |
16:49 | who is deeply hurt |
and is unaware of it, | |
16:54 | and to see if it is possible |
not to be hurt at all? | |
16:59 | H: I don't address the question about |
is it possible to not be hurt at all. | |
17:02 | That doesn't come up. |
17:04 | K: Why? |
17:08 | Wouldn't that be |
a reasonable question? | |
17:12 | H: Well, it seems to be |
what we are asking here. | |
17:15 | It is the essence of the question |
that we're asking. | |
17:18 | We ask it in terms of |
particulars only in therapy, | |
17:22 | and you're asking |
it more generally, | |
17:24 | is it possible |
to end this hurt, period. | |
17:27 | Not just a particular hurt |
that I happen to have. | |
17:32 | K: So, how should |
we proceed? | |
17:35 | H: Well, it would seem that the |
structure that makes hurt possible | |
17:40 | is what we have to get at. |
What makes hurt possible | |
17:43 | in the first place, |
not this hurt or that hurt. | |
17:46 | K: I think that's fairly simple. |
Why am I hurt? | |
17:53 | Because you say something to me |
which is not pleasant. | |
17:57 | H: Well, why should |
that hurt you? | |
18:00 | K: Because I have an image about |
myself as being a great man. | |
18:04 | You come along and tell me, |
don't be an ass. And I get hurt. | |
18:10 | H: What is it that's |
being hurt there? | |
18:13 | K: There, the image |
which I have about myself. | |
18:17 | I am a great cook, |
18:19 | a great scientist, a great |
carpenter, whatever you will. | |
18:23 | I have got that |
picture in myself, | |
18:26 | and you come along |
and put a pin into it. | |
18:30 | And that gets hurt. |
18:32 | The image gets hurt. |
The image is me. | |
18:37 | B: I feel that that will not be |
terribly clear to many people. | |
18:41 | How can I be an image, |
many people will ask. | |
18:43 | How can an image |
get hurt, | |
18:45 | because if an image is nothing |
at all, why does it hurt? | |
18:49 | K: Because I have invested |
into that image a lot of feeling. | |
18:53 | B: Yes. |
18:55 | K: A lot of ideas, emotions, |
reactions | |
19:00 | - all that is me, |
that is my image. | |
19:03 | H: It doesn't look like |
an image to me though, | |
19:05 | it looks like |
something real. | |
19:08 | K: Ah, of course, |
for most people it's very real. | |
19:12 | H: Yes. |
19:13 | K: But that is me, |
the reality of that image is me. | |
19:17 | H: Yes. |
19:20 | Well, can we get clear that |
it's an image and not real? | |
19:24 | K: Image is never real; |
symbol is never real. | |
19:28 | H: You're saying that |
I'm just a symbol. | |
19:31 | K: Perhaps. |
H: That's a big step. | |
19:43 | K: From that |
arises the question | |
19:46 | whether it's possible |
not to have images at all. | |
19:54 | S: Well, wait a minute. I don't think |
we've clearly established | |
19:57 | that I am an image. |
20:00 | K: Ah, let's go into it. |
20:03 | S: I mean, it's not entirely clear. |
I mean, it's obvious | |
20:06 | that to some extent |
one is an image, | |
20:08 | that when I have a feeling |
about myself, and so on. | |
20:12 | It's not entirely clear that |
this is entirely unjustified. | |
20:17 | You see, certain aspects of it |
may be exaggerated, | |
20:19 | certain aspects may be |
unrealistic, but, | |
20:24 | one approach would be, |
we've got to remove, shave off | |
20:27 | these unrealistic aspects, pare |
it down to sort of reasonable size. | |
20:31 | And then that which remains |
would be the real thing. | |
20:33 | K: So, sir, are you raising |
the question, what am I? | |
20:37 | S: Well, I suppose so, |
yes. | |
20:39 | K: Yes, basically. |
20:42 | What are you? |
What is each one of us? | |
20:46 | What is a human being? |
20:48 | That's the question |
that's involved. | |
20:51 | S: Yes, that seems |
unavoidable. | |
20:53 | K: Yes. What am I? |
20:58 | I am the form, the physical form, |
the name, | |
21:04 | the result of all education. |
H: Your experience. | |
21:09 | K: My experiences, |
my beliefs, | |
21:13 | my ideals, principles, |
21:16 | the incidents that |
have marked me. | |
21:22 | H: The structures you've built up |
that are how you function. | |
21:24 | K: Yes. |
H: Your skills. | |
21:26 | K: My fears, my activities, |
whether they are limited | |
21:29 | or my so-called |
affection, my gods, | |
21:34 | my country, |
my language, | |
21:39 | fears, pleasures, |
suffering - all that is me. | |
21:43 | H: Yes. |
21:45 | K: That's my consciousness. |
21:48 | H: And your unconscious. |
K: That's my whole content of me. | |
21:53 | H: Okay. |
21:56 | B: But there's still that feeling |
of actuality that me is there. | |
22:01 | I mean, you may say, |
you could reasonably argue | |
22:03 | that that's all there is to me, |
but when something happens | |
22:06 | there's the feeling of its |
actual presence, at that moment. | |
22:11 | K: I don't quite |
follow you there. | |
22:15 | B: If somebody reacts |
to being hurt or angry, | |
22:18 | he feels at that moment |
that there's more than that, | |
22:22 | that there is something deep |
inside which has been hurt, right? | |
22:29 | K: I don't quite see. |
22:32 | My image can be |
such a deep... | |
22:40 | That's my image, |
at all levels. | |
22:45 | B: Yes, but how... |
22:47 | K: Wait, sir, I have an image |
of myself, suppose, | |
22:51 | that I am a great poet, |
or a great painter, | |
22:54 | or a great writer. |
22:59 | Apart from that image |
as a writer, | |
23:01 | I have other images |
about myself. | |
23:04 | I have an image |
about my wife, | |
23:08 | and she has an image |
about me, | |
23:12 | and there are so many images |
I've built around myself; | |
23:17 | and the image |
about myself also. | |
23:21 | So, I may gather a bundle of images. |
B: Yes, I understand. | |
23:25 | K: Partial. |
B: Yes, you are saying that | |
23:27 | there is nothing |
but this bundle of images. | |
23:30 | K: Of course! |
B: But the question is | |
23:32 | how are we to see this |
as an actual fact? | |
23:34 | K: Ah. |
S: But wait a minute, | |
23:37 | there is something |
but this bundle of images. | |
23:39 | I mean, I'm sitting |
right here, now, | |
23:42 | seeing you, and all the rest of it. |
Now, I have the feeling | |
23:46 | there's a centre of action |
or centre of consciousness, | |
23:49 | which is within my body |
and associated with it, | |
23:52 | which has a centre, and it's |
not you, and it's not you, | |
23:55 | and it's not David, |
it's me. | |
23:57 | And associated with this centre |
of action, my body, sitting here, | |
24:02 | is a whole lot of memories |
and experiences, | |
24:04 | and without those memories |
I wouldn't be able to speak, | |
24:07 | to talk, to recognise anything. |
K: Of course, of course. | |
24:09 | S: So, there seems to be some |
substance to this image of myself. | |
24:14 | There may be false images |
associated with it, | |
24:16 | but there seems to be a reality |
which I feel as I sit here. | |
24:19 | So it's not |
entirely illusory. | |
24:21 | K: Sir, are you saying |
that you are totally, | |
24:24 | basically different |
from the three of us? | |
24:27 | S: Well, I'm in a different place |
and I have a different body. | |
24:30 | K: Of course. |
S: And in that sense I'm different. | |
24:32 | K: Of course, I admit that, |
I mean, you're tall, I'm short, | |
24:34 | I'm brown, you're... |
S: Yes. | |
24:36 | K: ...black, or you're white, |
or you're pink, or whatever it is. | |
24:39 | S: Now, at another level I'm not |
basically different in the sense | |
24:43 | that we can all speak the same |
language and communicate, | |
24:45 | so there's something in common. |
And at a purely physical level | |
24:49 | all of us have a lot in common |
with each other, | |
24:51 | the same kinds of enzymes, |
chemicals, and so on. | |
24:54 | And those indeed |
- hydrogen atoms, oxygen atoms - | |
24:56 | we have in common |
with everything else. | |
24:58 | K: Yes. Now, is your consciousness |
different from the rest? | |
25:05 | Consciousness, not bodily |
responses, bodily reactions, | |
25:10 | bodily conditioning, |
25:16 | is your consciousness, |
that is your beliefs, | |
25:18 | your fears, |
your anxieties, | |
25:21 | depressions, faith |
- all that? | |
25:26 | S: Well, I would say that many of |
the contents of my consciousness | |
25:28 | or many of the beliefs, desires, |
etc. I have, other people also have. | |
25:33 | But I would say the particular |
combination of experiences, | |
25:36 | memories, desires, etc. I have, |
are unique, because I've had | |
25:39 | a particular set of experiences, |
as you have and as everyone has, | |
25:42 | which makes a unique combination |
of these different elements. | |
25:46 | K: So, is mine unique? |
S: Yes. | |
25:48 | K: So is his? |
S: Exactly. | |
25:50 | K: The uniqueness makes it all common. |
It's no longer unique. | |
25:56 | S: That's a paradox. |
It's not immediately clear. | |
26:01 | B: Why isn't it clear? |
Everybody's unique, right? | |
26:04 | S: Yes, we're all unique. |
K: I question that. | |
26:06 | S: We're not unique |
in the same way. | |
26:09 | Otherwise the word 'unique' |
becomes meaningless. | |
26:14 | If we're unique, each of |
us is unique, we have | |
26:17 | a unique set of experiences, |
environmental factors, memories, etc. | |
26:22 | K: That's what you just now said, |
that's common lot to all of us. | |
26:24 | S: Yes, we all have it, |
but what we have is different. | |
26:28 | K: Yes, you brought up |
in England, | |
26:31 | and perhaps another brought up in |
America, another brought up in Chile, | |
26:35 | we all have different experiences, |
different country, | |
26:41 | different views, different |
mountains, and so on. | |
26:44 | S: Yes. |
26:47 | K: But apart from the physical |
environment, | |
26:51 | linguistic differences, |
26:54 | and accidents |
of experience, | |
26:59 | basically, fundamentally, |
deep down, | |
27:02 | we suffer, we are frightened |
to death, we are anxious, | |
27:08 | we have agony about something |
or other, and conflict | |
27:14 | - that's the ground |
on which we all stand. | |
27:17 | S: But that doesn't seem |
a very startling conclusion. | |
27:20 | K: No, it is not. |
27:22 | B: But I think, what you are saying |
really implies that | |
27:27 | what we have in common |
is essential and fundamental | |
27:30 | rather than |
just superficial. | |
27:33 | And now, I've talked with |
people about this, and they say, | |
27:36 | everybody agrees, we all |
have these things in common, | |
27:38 | but sorrow, suffering, and so on, |
are not so important; | |
27:40 | the really important point are |
the higher achievements of culture | |
27:44 | and things like that, |
as an example. | |
27:48 | H: Maybe the distinction is |
between the form and the content. | |
27:51 | Our contents are all different, |
and they have similarities | |
27:54 | and differences, but maybe the |
form is the same, the structure. | |
27:59 | K: I would say contents are |
the same for all human beings. | |
28:03 | S: But you see, I can recognise |
that there is such a thing | |
28:06 | as common humanity, but I would |
regard that quite possibly | |
28:10 | as an abstraction or a projection |
rather than a reality. | |
28:14 | How do I know |
that is not an abstraction? | |
28:17 | K: Because you go around the world, |
you see people suffer, | |
28:25 | you see human beings |
in agony, despair, depression, | |
28:30 | loneliness, lack of affection, |
lack of care, attention, | |
28:39 | that's the basic |
human reactions, | |
28:44 | that is part of |
our consciousness. | |
28:47 | S: Yes. |
28:49 | K: So, you are not |
basically different from me. | |
28:54 | You may be tall, you may be born |
in England, I may be born in Africa, | |
29:00 | I have a dark skin, |
but deep down the river | |
29:06 | the content of the river |
is the water. | |
29:13 | The river is not Asiatic river, |
or European river, it is a river. | |
29:21 | S: Yes, well that is clearly true |
at some level. | |
29:23 | But I am not quite sure |
at what level, you see. | |
29:26 | K: I am talking |
basically, deeply. | |
29:31 | S: But you see, it seems to me, |
why stop there? | |
29:36 | I can see something in common |
with all other human beings, | |
29:39 | but I can also |
by looking at animals | |
29:41 | see something |
in common with them. | |
29:43 | We have a great deal |
in common with the animals. | |
29:45 | K: Surely, surely. |
S: So why stop at human beings? | |
29:47 | K: I don't. |
S: Why not say... | |
29:49 | K: Because I say |
if I feel... | |
29:54 | I don't like the word |
'common.' | |
29:59 | One feels that is the ground |
on which all human beings stand. | |
30:08 | Their relationship with nature, |
animals, and so on, | |
30:13 | and the content of our |
consciousness is, again, | |
30:19 | the ground of humanity. |
30:25 | Love is not English, |
American, or Indian. | |
30:32 | Hate is not, |
30:36 | agony is not yours |
or mine, it is agony. | |
30:40 | But we identify |
ourselves with agony, | |
30:43 | it is my agony, |
which is not yours. | |
30:46 | S: We might go through it |
in very different ways though. | |
30:50 | K: Different expressions, different |
reactions, but basically it is agony. | |
30:56 | Not German agony |
and Asiatic agony. | |
31:01 | It's not what is happening |
- British and Argentine, | |
31:06 | it is human conflict. |
31:10 | Why do we separate |
ourselves from all this? | |
31:16 | The British, the Argentine, |
the Jew, | |
31:18 | the Arab, the Hindu, |
the Muslim. | |
31:20 | You follow? |
31:22 | Which all seems |
so nonsensical, tribal. | |
31:29 | The worship of a |
nation is tribalism. | |
31:32 | So, why can't we |
wipe out all that? | |
31:37 | S: I don't know. You tell me, |
why can't we? | |
31:40 | K: Because, again, we have |
come back to the question: | |
31:44 | I identify with my nation, because |
that gives me a certain strength, | |
31:49 | certain standard, certain |
status, certain security. | |
31:58 | When I say, |
'I am British'... | |
32:04 | So, this division is one |
of the reasons of war, | |
32:12 | not only economic, social, |
and all the rest of it. | |
32:14 | Nationalism, |
which is really | |
32:17 | glorified tribalism, |
is the cause of war. | |
32:20 | Why can't we wipe that out? |
It seems so reasonable. | |
32:28 | H: It seems reasonable |
on a level like nationalism; | |
32:32 | people don't think |
they are England. | |
32:35 | K: Start from there. |
H: Okay. | |
32:37 | But then I have a patient, |
and he does think that he is married | |
32:45 | and that it is his wife. |
K: Yes. | |
32:47 | Of course, |
it is his wife. | |
32:50 | H: Well, isn't that the same action |
that you are talking about? | |
32:53 | K: No, no. |
32:56 | Sir, just let's go |
into it slowly. | |
32:59 | H: Okay. |
33:02 | K: Why do I want to identify myself |
with something greater? | |
33:10 | Like nationalism, like god. |
33:14 | H: Because I don't feel sufficient. |
K: Which means what? | |
33:18 | H: Insecure. |
33:19 | K: Insecure, insufficient, |
lonely, isolated. | |
33:28 | I have built a wall round myself. |
H: Yes. | |
33:31 | K: So, all this is making me |
desperately lonely. | |
33:38 | And out of that conscious |
or unconscious loneliness | |
33:42 | I identify with god, |
with the nation, with Mussolini | |
33:47 | - it doesn't matter - Hitler, |
or any religious teacher. | |
33:52 | H: Okay. Or I get married, I have |
a job, I make a place for myself. | |
33:56 | K: Yes. |
H: And that's all also identification. | |
33:59 | K: Yes. Why do we want |
to identify with something? | |
34:05 | No, the basic question is too, |
why do we want roots? | |
34:10 | H: To belong. |
K: To belong, | |
34:14 | which is also implied to become. |
H: Yes. | |
34:21 | K: So, this whole |
process of becoming, | |
34:25 | from childhood, |
34:27 | I am asked to become, |
become, become. | |
34:31 | From the priest to the bishop, |
the bishop to the cardinal, | |
34:35 | the cardinal to the pope. |
34:37 | And in the business world |
it is the same. | |
34:40 | In the spiritual world |
it is the same. | |
34:45 | I am this, |
but I must become that. | |
34:48 | H: Okay, what I am |
is not sufficient. | |
34:50 | K: Why do we want to become? |
What is it that is becoming? | |
35:01 | S: Any obvious reason |
for wanting to become | |
35:04 | is a feeling |
of insufficiency, | |
35:06 | inadequacy, in the state |
that we are. | |
35:08 | And one of the reasons for this is |
that we live in an imperfect world, | |
35:14 | our relations with other people |
are imperfect. | |
35:18 | We are not content for a variety |
of reasons with the way we are. | |
35:21 | So the way out of that |
seems to become something else. | |
35:24 | K: Yes. That means |
escaping from 'what is.' | |
35:30 | S: Yes. But it may seem |
'what is' is something | |
35:32 | we have a need |
to escape from, | |
35:34 | because there is |
something wrong with it. | |
35:36 | K: All right. Take the usual |
experience. I am violent, | |
35:40 | and I have invented |
non-violence. | |
35:44 | Right? And I am trying |
to become that. | |
35:50 | I'll take years to become that. |
In the meantime I am violent. | |
35:55 | So, I have never escaped from |
violence. It is just an invention. | |
36:00 | S: Well, you are trying |
to escape from it. | |
36:04 | You may escape |
in the end. | |
36:06 | K: No, I don't want to escape. |
I want to understand | |
36:11 | the nature of violence, |
what is implied in it, | |
36:14 | whether it is possible |
to live a life | |
36:16 | without any sense |
of violence. | |
36:19 | S: But what you are suggesting is a |
more effective method of escaping. | |
36:22 | You are not suggesting an |
abandoning the idea of escaping. | |
36:25 | You are suggesting that |
the normal way of escaping, | |
36:28 | trying to become |
nonviolent, | |
36:30 | is one way of doing it |
which doesn't work. | |
36:32 | Whereas if you do |
another method, | |
36:34 | where you actually look at |
the violence in a different way, | |
36:37 | you can become non-violent. |
K: I am not escaping. | |
36:40 | S: Well, you are |
changing then. | |
36:42 | K: No. I am violent. |
S: Yes. | |
36:45 | K: I want to see what is the |
nature of violence, how it arises. | |
36:50 | S: But for what purpose? |
36:51 | K: To see whether it is possible |
to be free of it completely. | |
36:55 | S: But isn't that |
a kind of escape from it? | |
36:57 | K: No. |
S: Being free of something... | |
36:59 | K: ...is not an escape. |
S: Why not? | |
37:01 | K: Avoidance, running away, fly |
away from 'what is' is an escape, | |
37:07 | but to say, look, this is |
what I am, let's look at it, | |
37:11 | let's observe what its content is. |
That is not escape! | |
37:16 | S: Oh, I see, the distinction you |
are making is that if you run away, | |
37:19 | and escape in a normal sense |
is running away from something, | |
37:22 | like escaping from prison, |
or one's parents, or whatever, | |
37:26 | but they still remain there. |
What you are saying is that | |
37:29 | rather than escaping |
from violence, | |
37:31 | which leaves violence |
intact and still there, | |
37:34 | and you try and distance |
yourself from it, | |
37:36 | you try to dissolve violence, |
or abolish it. | |
37:39 | K: Dissolve. |
S: Yes. | |
37:41 | K: Not abolish it, dissolve. |
S: All right. | |
37:44 | So this is different from escape, |
because you are trying | |
37:47 | to dissolve the thing |
rather than run away from it. | |
37:51 | K: Running away is... |
Everybody runs away. | |
37:57 | S: Well, it usually works, |
to a limited extent. | |
37:59 | K: No. |
38:03 | It's like running away from |
my agony by going to football. | |
38:08 | I come back home, |
it is there! | |
38:12 | I don't want to go |
to watch football, | |
38:15 | but I want to see |
what violence is | |
38:19 | and see if it is possible |
to be completely free of it. | |
38:24 | S: If I am in a very unpleasant |
society and I can escape from it | |
38:28 | by defecting, or leaving it |
and going to another one. | |
38:31 | And this does in fact mean |
I escape to some extent. | |
38:34 | K: Of course. |
38:36 | S: So these are always partial answers |
and they are partially effective. | |
38:41 | K: I don't want to |
be partially violent. | |
38:44 | Or partially |
free from it. | |
38:46 | I want to find out if it is possible |
to totally end it. | |
38:52 | That's not an escape, |
that's putting my teeth into it. | |
38:56 | S: Yes. But you have |
to believe it is possible | |
39:00 | in order to put |
your teeth into it. | |
39:03 | K: I don't know, |
I am going to investigate. | |
39:05 | I said, for me, I know |
one can live without violence. | |
39:13 | But that may be a freak, that may |
be a biological freak, and so on. | |
39:20 | But to discuss together, |
the four of us and see | |
39:25 | if we could be free of violence |
completely, means not escaping, | |
39:31 | not suppressing, |
not transcending it, | |
39:37 | and see what |
is violence. | |
39:40 | Violence is part of |
imitation, conformity. | |
39:46 | Right? |
39:47 | Apart from physical hurts, |
I am not talking about that. | |
39:52 | So, psychologically there is |
this constant comparing, | |
39:58 | that is part of hurt, |
part of violence. | |
40:02 | So, can I live |
without comparison, | |
40:07 | when from childhood I have |
been trained to compare | |
40:10 | myself with somebody? |
40:12 | I am talking comparison, |
not good cloth and bad cloth. | |
40:16 | H: Right. Talking |
about comparing myself. | |
40:19 | K: Myself with you who are bright, |
who are clever, | |
40:23 | who have got publicity. |
40:26 | When you say a word |
the whole world listens. | |
40:29 | And I can shout, |
nobody cares. | |
40:32 | So, I want to be |
like you. | |
40:35 | So, I am comparing constantly myself |
with something I think is greater. | |
40:42 | H: So, this is where becoming |
comes from, this comparison. | |
40:45 | K: That's just it. So, can I live |
without comparison? | |
40:50 | H: Doesn't that leave me |
in an insufficient state? | |
40:53 | K: No. To live without |
comparison? No. | |
40:57 | H: Here I start off |
insufficient... | |
41:00 | K: You understand, sir? Am I dull |
because I compare myself with you, | |
41:04 | who are bright? |
H: Yes. | |
41:06 | Yes, you are dull because |
you compare yourself. | |
41:10 | K: By comparing myself with you, |
who are bright, who are clever, | |
41:14 | I become dull. I think I am dull. |
H: Yes. | |
41:17 | K: But if I don't compare |
I am what I am. | |
41:20 | S: Well, you may not compare but I may |
compare. I may say, 'You are dull'. | |
41:25 | K: All right. I say, 'All right'. |
You say I am dull. I say, 'Am I?' | |
41:30 | I want to know |
what does it mean. | |
41:32 | Does it mean he is |
comparing himself with me, | |
41:36 | who is... |
- you follow? | |
41:38 | the reverse of it! |
41:39 | S: Very frustrating, that. Yes. |
I mean, if one compared oneself | |
41:44 | with somebody and said, |
'You are dull', | |
41:47 | and then they said, 'What does |
dullness mean?' | |
41:53 | K: The other day, after one |
of the talks in England | |
41:57 | a man came up to me and said, |
'Sir, you are a beautiful old man, | |
42:01 | but you are |
stuck in a rut'. | |
42:04 | I said, 'Well, |
sir, perhaps, sir, | |
42:07 | I don't know, |
we'll go into it'. | |
42:08 | So I went up to my room |
and said, 'Am I?' | |
42:12 | Because I don't want |
to be stuck in a rut. I may be. | |
42:17 | So, I went into it very, very |
carefully, step by step, and found | |
42:23 | what does a rut mean - to stick |
in a groove along a particular line. | |
42:27 | Maybe, so I watch it. |
42:33 | So, observation of a fact |
is entirely different | |
42:38 | from the escaping or |
the suppression of it. | |
42:45 | H: So, he says |
you are stuck in a rut, | |
42:47 | and you observe it, |
you don't compare. | |
42:50 | K: I don't. Am I in a rut? |
I look. I may be stuck in a rut, | |
42:56 | because I speak |
English. | |
43:00 | I speak Italian |
and French. | |
43:03 | All right. |
And that's not… | |
43:06 | Am I psychologically, inwardly, |
caught in a groove, like a tram car? | |
43:16 | H: Just motivated by something |
and not understanding it. | |
43:19 | K: No, am I? I don't know, I am going |
to find out. I am going to watch. | |
43:25 | I am going to be terribly |
attentive, sensitive, alert. | |
43:32 | H: Now, this requires that you are not |
reacting in the first place by saying | |
43:36 | 'No, that's horrible, I couldn't |
possibly be stuck in a rut'. | |
43:39 | K: I wouldn't. |
You may be telling the truth. | |
43:50 | H: To not have that reaction |
you can't have that self there | |
43:53 | that says, 'I am not the type |
of person that is stuck in ruts'. | |
43:56 | K: I don't know. |
43:59 | Sir, is there a learning |
44:04 | about oneself, |
which is not... | |
44:10 | - this leads to something |
else, I mustn't go into it - | |
44:13 | which is not constant |
accumulation about myself? | |
44:23 | I don't know if I am |
making myself clear. | |
44:25 | H: Yes. |
44:28 | K: I observe myself. |
H: Yes. | |
44:31 | K: And I have learnt from |
that observation something. | |
44:36 | And that something |
is being accumulated | |
44:39 | all the time |
by watching. | |
44:41 | I think that is not |
learning about yourself. | |
44:44 | H: Yes. It's being concerned with |
what you think about yourself. | |
44:48 | K: Yes, what you think |
about yourself, | |
44:51 | what you have gathered |
about yourself. | |
44:53 | H: Yes. |
44:57 | K: Like a river that is flowing, |
you have to follow it. | |
45:03 | That leads somewhere else. |
Let's get back. | |
45:06 | H: Maybe this is part of |
the question we are asking, | |
45:08 | because we start with |
45:10 | how does this disorder occur. |
K: Yes, sir, let's stick to that. | |
45:15 | H: It occurs because I have the image |
of myself of someone who knows | |
45:19 | he is not stuck in a rut. |
I don't like to think | |
45:21 | that I am stuck in a rut, |
and somebody says, 'Yes, you are.' | |
45:25 | K: But you may be. |
45:27 | H: Yes. I have to be |
open to looking, to see. | |
45:30 | K: Yes, to observe. |
45:32 | S: But then what about |
this approach: | |
45:34 | somebody says |
I am stuck in a rut, | |
45:37 | I look at myself and think, |
'Yes, I am stuck in a rut' | |
45:41 | and then I can respond by thinking, |
what's wrong with that? | |
45:44 | Everyone is stuck in a rut. |
K: Sir, that's just blind. | |
45:47 | S: No, you accept the fact, |
but then you think, | |
45:51 | 'Why should I do |
anything about it?' | |
45:53 | What's wrong with that |
as an approach? | |
45:55 | K: Like a man stuck |
as a Hindu, he is stuck. | |
45:59 | He is then |
contributing to war. | |
46:03 | S: I may say, well, I am stuck |
in a rut, but so is everybody, | |
46:07 | it is the nature of humanity |
to be stuck in ruts. | |
46:10 | K: You see, that's it, you go off, |
that is the nature of humanity. | |
46:14 | But I question that. |
46:17 | If you say that is |
the nature of humanity, | |
46:19 | let's change it, |
for god's sake! | |
46:22 | S: But you may believe |
it is unchangeable. | |
46:25 | What reason have I for believing |
that we can change it? | |
46:28 | I may think that |
I am stuck in a rut, | |
46:29 | so are you, |
so is everybody else. | |
46:31 | And anyone who thinks they are not |
is deceiving themselves. | |
46:34 | K: It's cheating themselves. |
I may cheat, so I begin to enquire | |
46:38 | - am I cheating myself? I want |
to be very honest about it. | |
46:43 | I don't want to cheat, |
I don't want to be a hypocrite. | |
46:46 | S: You may not be a hypocrite, |
you may think, 'I am stuck in a rut', | |
46:49 | and you may be |
a pessimist. | |
46:51 | The alternative to being |
a hypocrite is a pessimist. | |
46:54 | K: No, I am neither a |
pessimist nor an optimist. | |
46:57 | I say, 'Look, am |
I stuck in a rut?' | |
47:01 | I watch all day. |
47:04 | S: And you perhaps conclude, 'Yes'. |
But then you can take | |
47:08 | the pessimistic cause and say, |
'Yes, I am, but so what?' | |
47:14 | K: If you prefer that |
way of living, go ahead. | |
47:18 | But I don't want |
to live that way. | |
47:22 | H: Well, the person |
who comes into therapy | |
47:25 | usually comes with both sides |
going on at the same time. | |
47:28 | He says that I have this problem |
which I want to be free of, | |
47:33 | I don't want to be stuck in a rut; |
on the other hand, | |
47:36 | when it gets down to really |
looking at that, he doesn't want | |
47:39 | to look at it either, |
because it becomes uncomfortable. | |
47:43 | K: Of course. So, to come back |
to your original question, | |
47:50 | the world is in disorder, |
human beings are in disorder, | |
47:57 | and we described |
what is disorder. | |
48:00 | And is there a possibility |
to live free from disorder? | |
48:07 | That is the real |
basic question. | |
48:14 | We said as long as there is |
this divisive process of life | |
48:21 | - I am a Hindu, |
you are an Arab, | |
48:25 | I am a Buddhist, |
you are a Muslim, | |
48:27 | I am British, |
you are an Argentine - | |
48:31 | there must be |
conflict, war. | |
48:35 | My son is going |
to be killed, for what? | |
48:39 | H: For as long as I identify |
on a personal level with my job, | |
48:42 | or with my family, and so on, |
there will be pain. | |
48:46 | K: Of course. |
H: It is the same process. | |
48:48 | K: So, is it possible to have, without |
identification, responsibility? | |
48:56 | H: If I am not identified |
will I even go to work? | |
48:59 | K: But I am responsible |
for the lady whom I am married. | |
49:08 | Responsible in the sense that I |
have to look after her, care for her, | |
49:13 | and she has to care for me. |
Responsibility means order. | |
49:20 | But we have become |
totally irresponsible | |
49:24 | by isolating ourselves |
- British, French. | |
49:27 | H: We handle the problem of |
responsibility by developing a rut | |
49:31 | that we can work in. |
K: Yes. That's it. | |
49:33 | H: And staying |
inside that. | |
49:40 | K: If I see the fact |
that responsibility is order | |
49:47 | - I am responsible to |
keep this house clean - | |
49:53 | but as we all live on this earth, |
it is our earth, not British earth, | |
49:57 | and French earth, and German earth, |
it is our earth to live on. | |
50:06 | And we have |
divided ourselves, | |
50:10 | because in this division |
we think there is security. | |
50:14 | H: There is stability |
and security. | |
50:16 | K: Security. Which is |
no security at all. | |
50:21 | H: Well, it isn't clear, we have got |
to go slow, because | |
50:24 | I think that my job is security, |
I think that my family is security. | |
50:29 | K: You may lose it. |
50:31 | H: That problem |
keeps coming up. | |
50:32 | K: There is great unemployment |
in America and in England, | |
50:37 | three million people |
unemployed in England. | |
50:39 | H: Or maybe I could get by |
without my job, but I need to think | |
50:42 | that I have some |
self respect. | |
50:45 | K: What do you |
mean, self respect? | |
50:47 | H: What I am trying to say |
is that there is some place | |
50:50 | at which I put |
an identification. | |
50:52 | K: Why should I want to identify |
with anything, sir? | |
50:58 | That makes |
immediate isolation. | |
51:04 | H: For stability's sake. |
51:08 | K: Does isolation |
bring about stability? | |
51:12 | H: It gives one a sense of |
something hard and firm. | |
51:15 | K: Does it? Has it? |
51:24 | We have had for the last |
five thousand years | |
51:30 | nearly five thousands wars. |
Is that stability? | |
51:34 | H: No. |
51:35 | K: Why don't we accept... |
51:37 | I won't go into all that. |
What is wrong with us? | |
51:41 | H: Well, why don't we see this thing? |
You are saying that | |
51:44 | the root of the problem is |
that I continue to identify | |
51:47 | with one thing after another, |
if one doesn't work I just find | |
51:50 | something else. |
I don't stop identifying. | |
51:52 | K: Yes, sir, |
which breeds isolation. | |
51:56 | H: But in your example about the |
person that is stuck in a rut, | |
52:01 | you say, 'I don't have to identify, |
I can just step back | |
52:04 | and look at this thing, |
and see if it is true'. | |
52:07 | K: Yes. |
52:08 | H: So, you are suggesting |
that there is something | |
52:10 | that is not identified, |
something that is free to look. | |
52:15 | K: No. This leads |
to something else. | |
52:18 | Why do I want |
to identify myself? | |
52:22 | Probably, basically, |
the desire to be secure, | |
52:29 | to be safe, |
to be protected. | |
52:33 | And that sense |
gives me strength. | |
52:37 | H: Strength, and |
purpose, direction. | |
52:40 | K: It gives me strength. |
H: Yes. | |
52:43 | S: But this is a biological fact. |
It is not merely an illusion. | |
52:47 | And if we again, to come back to |
the animal kingdom, we see it there | |
52:51 | - deer go round in flocks, birds |
have flocks, bees have hives | |
52:56 | and they are identified with |
the hive in which they work. | |
52:58 | K: But bees don't kill themselves, |
species don't kill themselves. | |
53:04 | S: Well, they kill other, they kill |
other bees that invade their hive. | |
53:08 | They don't commit suicide. |
They kill others. | |
53:10 | K: But we are! |
53:12 | S: Yes and no, bees do fight other |
bees that come into the hive. | |
53:16 | K: Of course. Yes, I know, |
I've raised bees, I know. | |
53:19 | S: So, we see even in the animal |
kingdom this identification | |
53:25 | with the group, |
in the social animals, | |
53:27 | and many social animals, |
and we are social animals. | |
53:29 | K: Just a minute. |
Agree. | |
53:32 | Are we by identifying |
ourselves with India, | |
53:36 | or China, or Germany, |
is that giving us security? | |
53:43 | S: To a limited extent it is. |
K: A limited extent. | |
53:45 | S: And by identifying ourselves |
with our families does, | |
53:48 | because this whole question |
of responsibility | |
53:51 | seems closely |
linked to it. | |
53:53 | If I identify myself |
with my family, | |
53:57 | feel duties towards them, |
protect - if my sister's insulted, | |
54:01 | I rush to her defence, and make |
a big fuss about it, and threaten, | |
54:05 | if not actually kill, the people |
who insulted her. | |
54:07 | K: We have no sisters. |
S: Yes, fortunately not. | |
54:13 | S: So, if I protect members |
of my family and defend, | |
54:19 | rush to their defence, |
so an insult to them | |
54:21 | or an attack on them is an insult |
to me, so I rush to their defence. | |
54:24 | K: Of course. |
54:25 | S: There is a reciprocal |
obligation on their part, | |
54:27 | if I fall ill or sick they'll |
feed me and look after me, | |
54:31 | if I get arrested by |
the police they will try | |
54:33 | and get me out |
of prison, and so on. | |
54:35 | So, it does give me a kind of |
security, it actually works. | |
54:37 | K: Of course. |
54:39 | S: And that is a very good reason |
for doing it, for most people. | |
54:41 | K: But stretch it further from |
the family, to the community, | |
54:46 | from the community to |
the nation, and so on, | |
54:48 | that is a vast |
process of isolating. | |
54:54 | You are English, I am German, |
and we are at each other's throat. | |
54:59 | And I say, for god's sake, |
this is so damn stupid! | |
55:04 | S: Well, it is not entirely |
stupid because it works | |
55:07 | to a certain extent. |
K: This is most impractical. | |
55:09 | It may work, but it's impractical, |
it is killing each other. | |
55:14 | S: But we haven't killed each other |
yet, there are more human beings | |
55:16 | than there have ever been before. |
So the system so far | |
55:20 | has gone to the point where we |
are far from killing each other, | |
55:23 | we have actually got to |
the point where we have got | |
55:25 | a bigger population than |
the world has ever seen. | |
55:29 | So, the system works only |
too well, for some reason. | |
55:33 | K: So, you propose |
war to kill them off? | |
55:37 | S: No! |
55:40 | But there is some aspect of it |
that does work, and some security | |
55:44 | that is genuine that |
these things confer. | |
55:46 | K: Yes, sir. At a certain |
level, identification | |
55:51 | has a certain importance. |
Right? | |
55:53 | But at a higher level, |
55:56 | if you can call it higher, |
it becomes dangerous. | |
56:00 | That's all we are saying. |
56:02 | Of course, if you are my brother |
you look after me. | |
56:08 | B: It is very hard |
to draw the line, | |
56:10 | you see, that |
starts spreading out. | |
56:13 | K: That's right, spreading out. |
B: You know, it slips. | |
56:16 | K: That's is what |
I am so objecting to. | |
56:19 | S: But you see, the question is |
where do you draw the line, | |
56:21 | because if you are my brother, |
then you have the tribal, | |
56:24 | the clan, or in India, |
the caste. | |
56:26 | K: That's it. Extend it. |
56:28 | And then we say, |
'I am Argentine, | |
56:32 | you are British, he's French', |
56:35 | economically, socially, culturally, |
we are murdering each other. | |
56:39 | And I say, |
that is so insane! | |
56:44 | S: But where do you |
draw the line? | |
56:46 | If you say the nation state is wrong, |
then what is wrong with the tribe | |
56:49 | or the caste, then you have |
got conflict between those. | |
56:53 | We've got conflict between families. |
K: I wouldn't draw the line. | |
56:55 | I say, I am responsible |
as a human being | |
56:59 | for what is happening |
in the world, | |
57:03 | because I am a human. |
57:06 | And so what is happening in the |
world is this terrible division, | |
57:10 | and I won't be a Hindu, |
57:12 | I won't be a Catholic, |
Protestant, Buddhist - nothing. | |
57:18 | If there were a hundred people |
or a thousand people like that | |
57:21 | they would begin |
to do something. | |
57:26 | H: So you are saying that |
the problem comes up, | |
57:28 | because I mistake |
my local security, | |
57:32 | I think that it rests |
in some local identification. | |
57:35 | K: Yes, sir, |
which is isolation. | |
57:39 | And therefore in isolation |
there is no security. | |
57:45 | And therefore |
there is no order. | |