Krishnamurti Subtitles

What is a healthy mind?

Ojai - 18 April 1982

Discussion with Scientists 4

0:10 The Nature of the Mind
0:23 Part Four
0:25 What is a Healthy Mind?
0:37 This is one of a series of
dialogues between J Krishnamurti,
0:41 David Bohm, Rupert
Sheldrake, and John Hidley.
0:45 The purpose of these discussions
is to explore essential questions
0:48 about the mind, what is
psychological disorder,
0:52 and what is required for
fundamental psychological change.
0:57 J Krishnamurti is a religious
philosopher, author, and educator,
1:01 who has written and given lectures
on these subjects for many years.
1:05 He has founded elementary
and secondary schools
1:07 in the United States,
England, and India.
1:11 David Bohm is professor
of theoretical physics
1:14 at Birkbeck College,
London University in England.
1:17 He has written numerous books
concerning theoretical physics
1:20 and the nature
of consciousness.
1:22 Professor Bohm and
Mr. Krishnamurti
1:24 have held previous dialogues
on many subjects.
1:28 Rupert Sheldrake is a biologist,
whose recently published book
1:32 proposes that learning in
some members of a species
1:35 affects the species
as a whole.
1:38 Dr. Sheldrake is presently
consulting plant physiologist
1:42 to the International
Crops Research Institute
1:44 in Hyderabad, India.
1:46 John Hidley is a psychiatrist
in private practice,
1:50 who has been associated
with the Krishnamurti school
1:52 in Ojai, California
for the past six years.
1:57 The first three dialogues have
focused on various processes
2:01 of self-identification
and their effects.
2:04 The need for psychological security
has been discussed as growing out
2:09 of a basic division, in which
the contents of consciousness
2:13 appear to be separate
from consciousness itself.
2:16 Today's discussion begins
with the importance of attention.
2:21 K: What is analysis?
2:26 And what is observation?
2:31 In analysis there is the analyser
and the analysed.
2:37 And so there is always
that difference maintained.
2:41 Where there is difference
there must be conflict,
2:46 division,
2:50 and that's one of the factors
that really is very destructive
2:56 to the whole psychological
3:04 this conflict,
this division.
3:07 And analysis maintains
this division.
3:14 Whereas if one
observes closely
3:17 - I'm not correcting you,
sir, I'm just enquiring -
3:22 the analyser
is the analysed.
3:24 Again the same problem:
3:26 thought has divided the analyser
and the analysed.
3:32 The analyser is the past, who has
acquired a lot of knowledge,
3:35 information,
separated himself,
3:39 and is either correcting
the observed, the analysed,
3:45 make him conform
- he is acting upon it.
3:49 Whereas the analyser
is the analysed.
3:54 I think if that is really
understood very deeply,
3:59 the conflict,
psychological conflict ends,
4:03 because in that
there is no division between
4:09 the analyser
and the analysed,
4:12 there is only
4:14 Which Dr. Bohm and we discussed
at considerable length last year.
4:25 So, if that is clearly
4:28 - I am not laying
down the law,
4:30 but I am just…
as I have observed,
4:33 as one has observed
this whole business of conflict,
4:39 whether one can live the whole
of one's life without conflict.
4:48 That means the controller
is absent,
4:50 which is a very
dangerous question.
4:56 I feel where there is inattention,
lack of attention,
5:00 is really the whole
process of conflict.
5:09 S: Yes, I can see that if both sides
saw this with the utmost clarity...
5:15 K: Yes. That means they are giving
intelligence to the whole problem.
5:20 S: What happens if only
one party in a conflict
5:22 sees it with that utmost clarity?
K: What happens?
5:27 One gives complete attention
in one's relationship between
5:31 man and woman;
let's begin with that.
5:36 You have given
complete attention.
5:41 When she insults you,
when she flatters you,
5:44 when she bullies you,
5:46 or when she is
attached to you,
5:48 all that is the lack
of attention.
5:52 If you give complete attention,
and the wife doesn't,
5:57 then what happens?
That is the same problem.
6:04 Either you try to explain,
day after day,
6:09 go into it with her
6:15 After all, attention implies also
great deal of care, affection, love.
6:20 It's not just
mental attention.
6:24 It's attention
with all your being.
6:30 Then either she moves
along with you,
6:36 comes over to your side,
as it were,
6:39 or she holds on to her
6:45 separative
contradictory state.
6:52 Then what happens?
6:55 One is stupid,
the other is intelligent.
6:58 S: But the conflict...
K: So there is always the battle
7:01 between the stupid
and the ignorant.
7:04 I mean between the ignorant,
the stupid, and the intelligent.
7:09 H: A thing that seems to happen
in that situation is that
7:15 the one's intelligence makes room,
in which the other person,
7:20 who is caught in some attachment,
may have freedom to look at it.
7:24 K: But if the other
refuses to look at it,
7:29 then what is the relationship
between the two people?
7:31 H: There is none.
K: That's all.
7:37 You see tribalism is deadly,
7:44 You see it basically,
fundamentally, and I don't.
7:53 You have seen it probably
7:59 and I'll take many years,
a long time to come to that.
8:04 Will you have the...
8:07 - I won't use
the word patience -
8:09 will you have the care,
affection, love,
8:13 so that you understand
my stupidity?
8:19 I may rebel against you.
8:23 I may divorce you.
8:26 I may run away
from you.
8:29 But you have sown the seed
somewhere in me.
8:38 But that does happen,
doesn't it, really, in life?
8:43 S: Yes.
8:45 H: You said something
that interests me here,
8:48 you said that if you
have seen it immediately
8:50 and the other person may take
a long time to come to seeing it.
8:53 And it seems like in this attention
that you're talking about
8:57 perception is immediate.
K: Of course.
8:59 H: It isn't built up out of...
K: Oh, no, then it's not perception.
9:04 H: That may be part of the reason
the other person is having
9:06 difficulty seeing it, is that
they want it to be proved to them.
9:09 K: You see conditioning is
9:14 and I don't.
H: Yes.
9:16 K: What is our relationship
between us two?
9:20 It's very difficult to communicate
with each other...
9:23 H: Yes.
9:25 K: ...verbally or with care,
it's very difficult, because...
9:29 H: You won't know
what I'm talking about.
9:31 K: No, and also I'm resisting you
all the time. I'm defending myself.
9:36 H: You're defending
what you think you see.
9:38 K: What I think is right. I have
been brought up as a Hindu,
9:42 or a British, or a German,
or a Russian, whatever it is,
9:48 and I see the danger of letting
that go. I might lose my job.
9:53 People will say
I'm little-minded.
9:58 People might say
I depend on public opinion,
10:02 so I'm frightened
to let go.
10:06 So, I stick to it.
10:08 Then what is your
relationship with me?
10:14 Have you any relationship?
H: No.
10:17 K: No, I question whether
you have no relationship.
10:20 H: I can tell you
what I see.
10:22 K: Yes. But if you have love for
me, real, not just attachment,
10:27 and sex, and all that business,
if you really care for me,
10:33 you cannot lose
that relationship.
10:37 I may run away,
10:39 but you have the feeling
of relationship.
10:43 I don't know if I am conveying
what I mean.
10:45 H: In other words, I don't just
say, well, I see it and you don't,
10:48 and if you're not going
to listen, the heck with you.
10:50 K: No. But, sir,
10:54 you have established
a kind of relationship,
10:59 perhaps very profound,
when there is love.
11:03 I may reject you, but you have
that responsibility of love.
11:14 Not only to the particular
11:17 but to the whole
of humanity.
11:22 What do you say, sir,
about all this?
11:25 B: Well, I can't say
a great deal more.
11:29 I think that this care and attention
are the essential points.
11:33 And, for example, in the question
of the observer and the observed,
11:37 or the analyser
and the analysed,
11:40 the reason why that
separation occurs
11:42 is because there has
not been enough attention.
11:44 K: Attention, that's what
I'm saying.
11:46 B: So that one has to have
that same attitude even in looking
11:50 at one's own
psychological problems.
11:56 H: An attitude of care?
11:58 B: Care and attention
to what's going on.
12:02 One starts to analyse
by habit,
12:06 and one might condemn
that, for example,
12:08 that would not be
the right attitude.
12:11 But one has to give care
and attention to exactly
12:15 what is happening in that,
just as in relationship with people.
12:22 And it's because that
there was no attention
12:24 or not the right kind
of attention,
12:27 that that division
arose in the first place,
12:31 and was sustained,
12:35 S: But it's possible to have
perhaps this kind of attention
12:38 towards people that we know:
wives, children, friends, etc.,
12:43 but what about people we don't know?
I mean, most of us
12:46 have never met any Russians,
for example, and we feel, many of us,
12:51 there's this terrible fear of Russia,
and Russian nuclear weapons,
12:55 and the Russian threat,
and all the rest of it.
12:58 And so it's very easy to think,
'We've got to have all these bombs,
13:01 and so on, because the Russians
are so terrible'.
13:05 We can think all these things about
Russians; we've never met them.
13:09 So, how do we have attention
to enemies, or imagined enemies,
13:13 that we don't know?
K: What is an enemy?
13:18 Is there such thing
as an enemy?
13:24 S: Well, there are enemies in the
sense that there are people who...
13:27 K: ...who disagree
with you.
13:29 S: Not only disagree…
K: Who have definite idealistic,
13:33 ideological differences.
13:36 S: Well, they're usually people
who are afraid of us, I mean,
13:39 the Russians are afraid of us,
and we're afraid of them,
13:42 and because they're
afraid of us,
13:44 they're in a position
of being our enemies.
13:46 K: Because we are still
thinking in terms of tribalism.
13:50 S: Yes, certainly.
13:53 K: Supposing you and I
move out of that.
13:55 I'm Russian, you are English,
or British, or German, or French.
14:01 I move, I despise
this sense of tribalism.
14:07 What's my relationship
then with you?
14:12 H: Well, we...
K: I'm not Russian then.
14:14 S: No.
K: I'm a human being
14:18 with all my psychological
14:22 and you are another
human being
14:24 with all your
psychological problems.
14:27 We are human
beings, not labels.
14:31 B: Of course, the Russians
may reject this, you see.
14:34 Suppose, we're in this situation...
K: We are in that.
14:37 B: ...and the Russians will
reject us, right? Then we have to…
14:40 then what's the next step,
14:43 K: So what shall we do?
14:48 You see,
14:54 I represent
all humanity.
14:58 I am all humanity.
15:04 I feel that way.
To me it's an actuality, not just
15:09 an emotional explosion,
emotional, romantic idea.
15:14 I feel I am the rest of mankind;
I am mankind.
15:19 Because I suffer, or I enjoy,
I go through all the tortures,
15:24 and so do you,
so do you.
15:26 So, you are the rest
of mankind.
15:34 And therefore you have terrible
responsibility for that, in that.
15:39 So when you meet a Russian, or a
German, or a British, or Argentine,
15:46 you treat them as human beings,
not labels.
15:49 S: Then does this simply mean
that in this largely tribal society,
15:54 with governments, and bombs,
and weapons of war,
15:57 there'll just be a few individual
scattered here and there,
16:00 who've dissolved
tribalism in themselves?
16:03 K: Yes. If a hundred of us
all over the world really had
16:08 a non-tribalistic attitude
towards life,
16:13 we would be
acting like a...
16:17 I don't know - like a light
in the midst of darkness.
16:23 But we don't.
16:25 This just becomes
an idealistic romantic idea,
16:29 and you drop it, because
each pursues his own way.
16:35 S: Yes.
16:37 K: Sir, I think we ought
to differentiate
16:40 between attention
and concentration.
16:49 Concentration is focusing
your energy on a certain point.
17:01 And attention -
17:05 there is no focusing
on a certain point.
17:09 It's attention.
17:12 H: Concentration seems
to have a goal in mind.
17:15 K: A goal, motive.
It's a restrictive process.
17:20 I concentrate on a page,
but my thoughts...
17:24 I am looking out of the window,
and I'll pull it back,
17:27 and keep on
this business.
17:30 Whereas if I gave
complete attention to
17:33 what I am looking
out of the window
17:37 - that lizard which is going
along the wall -
17:41 and with that same attention
I can look at my book,
17:45 look what I am doing.
17:47 H: Concentration presupposes
that there's a controller
17:50 in there pulling it back.
K: That's just it.
17:58 S: But then, if there's
no controller of the attention,
18:00 the attention is
simply a response
18:03 to whatever the present
circumstances are.
18:06 K: You insult me
- I'm attentive.
18:11 There is no recording
that insult.
18:20 B: Yes, I said.
18:23 K: You flatter me - a marvellous talk
you gave the other day.
18:27 I've heard this so often repeated.
And I'm bored with it, so
18:31 - I'm not only bored -
I see, what?
18:38 You follow, sir?
18:40 Is it possible - really, that's
the much more difficult question -
18:44 is it possible
not to record
18:48 except where
it is necessary?
18:50 It's necessary to record
when you are driving.
18:54 To learn how to drive.
18:56 Record when you do your business,
and all the rest of it.
19:00 But psychologically,
what is the need to record?
19:07 S: Isn't it inevitable? Doesn't
our memory work automatically?
19:11 K: Memory is
rather selective.
19:15 H: We seem to remember things
that are important to us...
19:18 S: Yes.
H: ...have some...
19:19 connect in with who we think
we are and what our goals are.
19:24 B: But it seems to me that when
there is paying attention
19:29 then in general attention
determines what is to be recorded
19:33 and what is not, that is,
it is not automatic anymore.
19:35 K: It's not automatic
any more. Quite right.
19:37 B: If it comes from the past,
from the concentration,
19:41 or from the analysis,
then it will be automatic.
19:46 K: Another problem
which we ought to discuss
19:50 - we said yesterday we would -
religion, meditation,
19:56 and if there is
something sacred.
19:58 We said we would
talk about that.
20:06 Is there anything
sacred in life?
20:13 Not thought creating
something sacred
20:19 and then worshipping that sacred,
which is absurd.
20:28 The symbols in all the Indian
temples, they're images,
20:33 like in the Christian
20:37 or the Muslim
in the mosque,
20:39 there is this marvellous writing,
it's the same.
20:46 And we worship that.
20:48 H: That's idolatry.
K: No. Thought has created this.
20:55 The thought has created
the image
21:00 and then it worships it.
21:03 I don't know if you see
the absurdity of it.
21:06 H: Yes.
21:07 S: Well, that's manifestly
21:10 but the more sophisticated
members of different religions
21:13 would say that
it's not the thought,
21:15 the image that's created by thought
that's being worshipped,
21:17 but the image points to something
beyond thought
21:20 which is being worshipped.
K: Wait a minute, let's look at it.
21:22 That is, the symbol,
21:25 we know symbol
is not the real,
21:30 but why do we create
the symbol?
21:38 Please answer it.
21:40 If there is something beyond,
why do we create the intermediary?
21:47 S: Well, I think that
this is a question
21:51 which in certain religions
has been central to them.
21:53 The Jews who were against all
idolatry for exactly this reason,
21:57 and the Muslims, who don't
have images in the mosques.
22:00 K: No, but they have these scripts.
S: They have writing.
22:03 K: Of course.
22:05 S: Well, they think writing
is what tells them about
22:08 what lies beyond all symbols.
K: Yes.
22:11 S: Now, you could say
the writing simply becomes a symbol,
22:14 but I mean, these are words,
and words can help us.
22:18 We're having a discussion,
and these words that we're having,
22:20 your words may help me, for example,
if they're written down,
22:24 then they're written words
like Muslim words.
22:27 K: So, why do I have to have
an intermediary at all?
22:38 H: Because I think I'm here, and
it's over there, and I don't have it.
22:41 I need some way
to get there.
22:44 K: No, you're not answering
my question.
22:49 Is it that you, the intermediary,
understand, or realised, or
22:55 follow truth,
or whatever it is,
22:58 and therefore you are
telling me about it?
23:03 H: Maybe I've seen something
and I want to tell you about it.
23:06 K: Yes, tell me about it, but why
do you make yourself interpreter?
23:11 Why do you become the intermediary
between that
23:14 - I don't know
what that is -
23:18 and me, who is ignorant,
who is suffering?
23:21 Why don't you deal with my
suffering rather than with that?
23:26 H: I think that that will deal
with your suffering.
23:29 If I can get you to...
23:31 K: That has been, sir,
that has been the old trick
23:35 of all the priests
in the world.
23:43 We have had priests
from time immemorial,
23:46 right?
H: Yes.
23:48 K: But you haven't
released my sorrow.
23:53 I am still suffering
after a million years.
23:57 What for?
23:59 Help me to get rid
of that.
24:03 Help me to be free, without fear,
then I'll find out.
24:12 Is it that you want
position, power, status,
24:19 like the rest
of the world.
24:23 Now, this is really
quite serious.
24:27 B: I think, if we try
to give the priests
24:30 the most favourable
24:32 that they may
have considered,
24:35 at least the best among them,
that there's a kind of poetic imagery
24:39 that people may use to point
to something beyond that - right? -
24:43 in a communication,
they are trying to point
24:46 to this sacred which
we were talking about.
24:50 That's perhaps the way
they would look at it.
24:52 Now, would you say that
that would make no sense,
24:54 you know, to have a poetic image
to point to the sacred.
24:57 K: But, sir, why don't you help me
to see what is happening to me?
25:04 B: Yes, that's your point,
don't point to the sacred right away,
25:06 but look at this first.
25:08 K: Help me to be free of it,
then I'll walk.
25:10 B: Yes, I understand that.
25:14 K: We have never talked -
nobody has gone into this like that.
25:18 Always God, some saviour,
some Brahma, and so on, so on.
25:29 And this is what
we call religion.
25:34 All the rituals are invented
by thought,
25:39 marvellous architecture
- by thought,
25:44 all the things
inside the churches,
25:47 temples, mosques,
created by thought.
25:51 And having thought create it,
then thought worships it.
25:57 But thought is not sacred.
25:59 H: Yes, I see that.
So you are saying,
26:01 is it possible to put a stop
to thought?
26:03 K: Thought.
Is it possible?
26:05 H: And thought is the thing
that gets in the way
26:07 by creating the images...
K: Of course.
26:09 H: ...which we take
for something really valuable.
26:11 K: I start out looking
for something sacred.
26:15 You come along and say,
26:18 'I'll tell you all about it'.
Then you begin to organise it.
26:24 It's all gone by then,
it's finished.
26:28 H: Then I just stay within thought,
that's all I have.
26:30 K: So, if we reject, or understand,
that thought is not sacred,
26:39 there's nothing holy
about thought,
26:43 but thought thinks that
what it has created is holy.
26:48 Right, sir?
B: Right.
26:50 Would you also add that,
just for the sake of…
26:53 that time is not sacred?
K: Time, of course, not.
26:55 B: Nothing in time,
people would say that.
26:57 K: Tomorrow is not sacred!
26:58 B: They always say,
only the eternal is sacred.
27:01 K: But to find out what is eternity,
time must stop.
27:07 H: But we get into a real subtle
place here, because you have said
27:10 things like absolute attention
dissolves the self.
27:14 Then absolute attention
can become a thought.
27:17 K: Idea of it, yes.
H: Yes, the idea of it.
27:20 So we may go the route
of creating the idea.
27:24 That seems to always be the danger.
K: Sir, you make a statement...
27:27 H: Yes.
27:29 K: ...'absolute attention'.
27:33 I don't capture the depth
of your meaning, what is implied.
27:39 You have gone into it, and you
can say that - absolute attention.
27:44 I hear it and make it
into an idea.
27:47 And then I pursue
the idea.
27:50 H: That seems to be the process.
K: That's what we do all the time.
27:53 S: Yes.
27:54 K: So - gone.
Idea is not what you've said.
28:00 What you said
had depth in it, had some...
28:02 H: But we don't know
that we're pursuing an idea.
28:05 We don't realise at the time
that we're pursuing an idea.
28:08 K: Of course not, because I am
used to this reducing everything
28:15 to abstract ideas.
28:23 So, could we try
to find out,
28:28 or realise, that anything
thought does is not sacred?
28:40 S: That seems
self-evident to me.
28:43 K: All right.
That's self-evident.
28:45 In all the religions as they are now
- there is nothing sacred.
28:52 Right?
28:54 S: No, there's nothing sacred
in itself in the words,
28:57 or the buildings, or the…
and so on. But in a sense
29:02 all these religions are supposed
to point beyond themselves.
29:06 K: Yes.
29:09 And to help me to go beyond
all this, I must start
29:15 with my being free
from my agony,
29:21 understand my relationship
with people.
29:25 If there is confusion here,
in my heart and my mind,
29:30 what's the good
of the other?
29:36 I am not materialistic.
29:39 I am not anti…
the other.
29:45 But I say, 'Look,
I must start where I am'.
29:49 To go very far,
I must start very near.
29:54 I am very near.
29:58 So I must
understand myself.
30:04 I'm the rest
of humanity.
30:07 I am not an individual.
30:11 So, there is the book
of humanity in me.
30:14 I am that book.
30:16 If I know how to read it,
from the beginning to the end,
30:19 then I can go...
30:22 then I will find
if there is a possibility...
30:26 if there is really something
that is immense, sacred.
30:33 But if you are all the time saying,
'Look, there is that,
30:38 that will help you',
I say, 'It hasn't helped me'.
30:42 We have had these religions
for millions of years.
30:48 That hasn't
- on the contrary,
30:50 you have distracted
from 'what is'.
31:01 So, if I want to find out
if there is anything sacred,
31:07 I must start very near.
31:11 The very near is me.
31:15 And can I free
myself from fear,
31:20 agony, sorrow, despair
- all that?
31:27 When there is freedom I can move,
I can climb mountains.
31:36 S: Sir, are you saying that
the sacred would become apparent
31:39 if we dissolved fear
and all these other things.
31:42 K: Obviously, sir.
That's real meditation, you see.
31:51 S: Through attention
to what is really happening in us.
31:54 K: Happening, yes,
that's it.
31:56 S: And what is really happening
between us and other people,
31:59 and all the rest of it.
K: Between our relationships.
32:01 S: Yes. Through attention to this,
this action...
32:05 K: Attention, and we have discussed,
too, with Dr. Bohm, some time ago,
32:12 having an insight into the whole
movement of the self,
32:21 which is not
a remembrance.
32:25 Insight is total perception
of what you are,
32:32 without analysis,
without investigation - all that.
32:38 Total immediate perception
of the whole content
32:43 of your consciousness,
32:48 not take bit, by bit, by bit
- that's endless.
32:54 H: Oh, we're broken up,
so we look at each little piece.
32:56 K: Yes. And because we are broken up,
we can never see the whole.
33:03 Obviously, that seems so logical!
H: Okay.
33:06 K: So, is it possible
not to be broken up?
33:11 What is to be broken up?
33:14 This confusion,
this mess in consciousness,
33:17 which we talked about
33:25 You see, nobody wants to go
so deeply into all this. Right, sir?
33:32 First of all, one hasn't the time,
one is committed to one's job,
33:38 to one's profession,
or to one's science,
33:40 to one's whatever
one is doing.
33:44 And you say, 'Please, this is
too difficult, or too abstract,
33:49 not practical' -
that's the word they all use.
33:54 As though all this, what you are
doing and all is terribly practical.
34:05 Armaments - is it practical?
Tribalism, is...
34:10 oh, well, you know
all about it.
34:13 So, sir, let's move
from there.
34:18 Is silence of the mind
a state of attention?
34:33 Or is it beyond attention?
I don't know if I'm…
34:38 B: What would you mean
by 'beyond attention'?
34:41 Let's try to get
into that.
34:48 K: In attention is there…
34:52 Is attention
an act of will?
34:56 I will attend.
34:58 H: No, we said
that's concentration.
35:01 K: Sir, I am asking you,
where there is attention,
35:07 is there any kind
of effort?
35:15 Struggle?
'I must attend'.
35:24 What is attention?
Let's go into it a little bit.
35:29 What is attention?
35:35 The word 'diligent'
is implied in attention.
35:40 To be diligent.
Not negligent.
35:48 S: What does diligent mean?
Careful? You mean careful?
35:52 K: Yes. Care.
To be very precise. Diligent.
35:58 B: The literal meaning
is 'taking pains'.
36:00 K: Pains, that's right.
Taking pain. Which is to care,
36:06 to have affection, to do everything
correctly, orderly.
36:15 Not repetitive.
36:22 Does attention demand
the action of thought?
36:33 S: Well, it doesn't demand
the action of analysis,
36:35 in the way you've explained it.
K: No, certainly.
36:37 S: And insofar as thought is
analytical, it doesn't demand that.
36:41 And it doesn't demand the action
of will, insofar as will involves
36:46 a separation, an attempt to,
by one part of the mind,
36:50 force another part
to do something else.
36:53 And it doesn't imply
any sense of
36:58 going anywhere or
becoming anything,
37:00 because becoming leads
one out of the present.
37:03 K: That's right.
You can't become attentive.
37:07 S: But in the act of attention...
K: Just see what is implied in it.
37:11 You can't become
37:13 That means in attention
there is no time.
37:20 Becoming implies time.
S: Yes.
37:22 K: In attention
there is no time.
37:25 Therefore it is not
the result of thought.
37:29 S: Yes.
37:39 K: Now, is that attention
silence of the mind?
37:45 Which is a healthy,
sane mind,
37:53 uncluttered,
37:56 unanchored, free mind,
which is the healthiest mind.
38:08 Therefore I am asking,
out of that…
38:12 in that attention,
is the mind silent?
38:20 There is no movement
of thought.
38:30 S: Well, it sounds
like it, yes.
38:36 It sounds like
a state of being
38:38 rather than a state of becoming,
because it's not going anywhere
38:41 or coming from anywhere.
K: Again, when you say 'being'
38:44 what does that mean?
Being what?
38:50 S: Well, being what it is.
It's not being something else.
38:53 K: No, what does
that mean, 'being'?
38:59 Are you putting 'being'
as an opposite to becoming?
39:02 S: Yes.
K: Ah, then...
39:05 the opposite has
its own opposite.
39:09 S: Well, by 'being' I simply mean
a state which is not in a process
39:17 of going somewhere else
in time.
39:19 K: Which means
39:26 S: I suppose so.
B: You could say that, yes.
39:30 K: Non-movement.
39:31 B: If you say what you mean
by movement,
39:33 that it doesn't mean it's static,
to say it's non-movement.
39:35 K: No, it's dynamic,
of course.
39:37 B: Dynamic, but it's
a little difficult.
39:39 K: There is no moving
from here to there.
39:42 B: But there is another kind
of movement, perhaps.
39:45 K: That's what I want
to go into.
39:49 If we use the word
39:54 without movement,
it is without thought,
40:00 without time,
40:04 which is the movement
which we know.
40:09 But the other
40:13 has its own dynamism,
40:17 its own movement,
but not this movement,
40:21 the time movement,
the thought movement.
40:24 Is that what you call
40:31 S: I suppose it is.
40:39 K: Is that 'being'
40:45 You follow, sir?
40:47 We have various
forms of silence.
40:51 Right?
S: Yes.
40:55 It may not be silent
in the sense of soundless.
41:01 K: I am using the word
'silence' in the sense,
41:04 without a single
movement of thought.
41:09 S: Well, in that sense it must be
silent, almost by definition.
41:12 K: Yes. So, has my mind, the mind,
has it stopped thinking?
41:22 Has - not stopped thinking -
has thought found its own place
41:27 and therefore
41:31 it's no longer moving,
chattering, pushing around?
41:39 Because there is no controller.
You follow?
41:51 Because when there is
a great silence
41:57 then that which
is eternal is.
42:00 You don't have to enquire
about it.
42:06 It's not a process.
42:09 It isn't something
you achieve, my god!
42:15 By fasting, by rituals,
by all these absurdities.
42:26 Sir, you hear that.
H: Yes.
42:29 K: You hear
X saying that.
42:32 What value has it?
42:37 Value in the sense -
what do you do with it?
42:45 Has it any importance
or none at all?
42:50 Because you are going
your way.
42:53 You are a psychologist,
you'll go your way, I'll go my way,
42:58 because I have said what I have
to say, and there it ends.
43:03 Then what?
43:05 Somebody comes along and says,
'I'll tell you what he means'.
43:12 You haven't the time.
He has a little time, he says,
43:16 'I'll tell you
all about it'.
43:18 And you are caught.
43:22 This is what is
43:28 From the ancient of times,
the Sumerians,
43:32 the Egyptians, the Babylonians
- they have played this.
43:35 And we are doing still
the same kind of nonsense.
43:41 And I say, what has
religion done to man?
43:45 It hasn't helped him.
43:51 It has given him
romantic illusory comfort.
43:57 Actually look what - we're killing
each other - I won't go into that.
44:14 So, sir, let's begin.
44:17 What is a healthy mind?
44:28 H: It's a mind that's
not caught so in this...
44:31 K: A mind that's
whole, healthy,
44:34 sane, holy
- H-O-L-Y - holy.
44:38 All that means
a healthy mind.
44:46 That's what we started
44:48 What is a healthy
44:53 The world is
so neurotic.
44:58 How are we going to tell you,
as an analyst, as a psychologist,
45:03 how are you going to tell people
what is a healthy mind,
45:05 nobody's going
to pay attention to it.
45:10 They'll listen to the tape,
to television,
45:13 they'll agree, but they'll go on
their own way.
45:19 So what do we do?
How do we…
45:22 First of all, do I have
a healthy mind?
45:31 Or is it just a lot of
pictures, words, images?
45:41 A mind that's
totally unattached
45:45 to my country,
to my ideas,
45:48 all totally dispassionately
45:58 H: Are you suggesting that
only then am I in a position
46:01 to talk to anybody?
K: Obviously.
46:03 Obviously.
46:06 I may be married,
I may,
46:09 but why should I be
attached to my wife?
46:14 H: Then it's an idea of marriage,
it's not a marriage.
46:17 K: But love is
not attachment.
46:23 So, have I realised
that in my life?
46:25 A healthy mind that says, 'I love,
therefore there is no attachment'.
46:31 Is that possible?
46:35 S: Sir, you make it sound so easy
and so difficult at the same time,
46:41 because...
K: I don't see why it's difficult.
46:43 S: Because, you see,
I hear what you say,
46:46 I think this is absolutely
wonderful stuff.
46:49 I want to have a healthy mind,
I want to be in a state of being,
46:52 and then I realise
that it's back into this,
46:55 that I can't become
in a state of having a healthy mind,
46:58 and I can't move by an act of will
or desire into this state.
47:04 It has to happen. And it can't
happen through any act of my will.
47:08 K: No. So…
47:10 S: So I have to let it happen
in some sense.
47:12 K: So we begin
to enquire.
47:15 You begin to say,
now, why?
47:17 Why am I not healthy?
Am I attached to my house?
47:21 I need a house,
why should I be attached to it?
47:25 A wife, relationship,
I can't exist without relationship,
47:32 life is relationship.
47:35 But why should I be
attached to a person?
47:38 Or to an idea, to a faith,
to a symbol - you follow? -
47:42 the whole cycle of it:
47:46 to a nation, to my guru,
to my god. You follow?
47:50 Attached means attached
right through.
47:52 A mind can be free of all that.
Of course it can.
47:58 S: But not just by wanting
to be free of it.
48:00 K: No. But seeing
the consequences of it,
48:04 seeing what is
involved in it,
48:09 the pain, the pleasure, the agony,
the fear - you follow? -
48:12 all of that is involved in it.
48:17 Such a mind is
an unhealthy mind.
48:26 S: Yes, but one can even agree
with that, one can even see it,
48:29 one can even see the movements
of one's attachments,
48:32 one can even see the destructive
consequences of all this.
48:36 But that doesn't in itself seem
automatically to dissolve it.
48:39 K: Of course not. So, it brings in
quite a different question.
48:46 Which is, sir, do you hear it
merely with your sensory ears,
48:52 or do you really hear it?
48:57 You understand my question?
S: Yes.
48:59 K: Is it just casual, verbal, sensory
hearing, or hearing at depth?
49:15 If you hear it at the greatest depth,
then it's part of you.
49:21 I don't know if...
49:23 B: I think that generally one
doesn't hear at the greatest depth,
49:27 and something is stopping it,
you see. All the conditioning.
49:31 K: And also, probably
we don't want to hear it.
49:34 B: But the conditioning
makes us not want to hear it.
49:36 K: Of course, of course.
49:38 B: We're unwilling
to do so.
49:40 K: How can I say to my wife,
'I love you but I am not attached'?
49:44 She'll say, 'What the hell
are you talking about?'
49:57 But if one sees the absolute
50:05 to have a healthy mind,
50:14 and the demand for it,
not only in myself,
50:18 but in my children,
my society.
50:23 H: But you don't mean by that
going around demanding of myself
50:25 and other people
that they become healthy.
50:27 K: No, no.
I demand in myself.
50:30 I ask why is not
my mind healthy?
50:34 Why is it neurotic?
50:41 Then I begin
to enquire.
50:45 I watch, I attend,
I am diligent in what I am doing.
50:53 B: It seems to me that you said
that we must have to see
50:56 the absolute necessity
of a healthy mind, but I think,
50:58 we've been conditioned
to the absolute necessity
51:01 of maintaining attachment.
51:03 And that's what we hear,
51:10 S: Well, we haven't necessarily,
there are many people,
51:13 who've seen that
there's all these problems,
51:15 there's something wrong
with the mind,
51:17 they feel that something to be done
about it, and all that,
51:20 and then take up some kind
of spiritual practice,
51:23 meditation, whatnot.
51:25 Now, you're saying that
all these kinds of meditation,
51:27 concentrating on chakras,
and whatnot,
51:30 are all just the same
kind of thing.
51:34 K: I have played
that trick long ago.
51:37 S: Yes.
51:40 K: And I see the absurdity
of all that.
51:43 That is not going
to stop thought.
51:48 S: Well, some of these methods
are supposed to.
51:52 I don't know if they do or not.
They've never done it for me, or...
51:57 but I don't know if that's because
I haven't done them enough.
52:00 K: So, instead of going
through all that business
52:02 why don't you find out,
let's find out what is thought,
52:06 whether it can end,
what is implied.
52:09 You follow? Dig!
52:22 Sir, at the end of these
four discussions
52:28 have you got
healthy minds?
52:35 Have you got a mind
that is not confused,
52:40 groping, floundering,
52:44 demanding, asking?
52:47 You follow, sir?
52:49 What a business!
52:56 It's like seeing
a rattler and say,
52:58 'Yes, that's a rattler,
I won't go near it'. Finished!
53:01 H: It looks from the inside like
this is a tremendous deep problem,
53:05 that's very difficult
to solve,
53:07 and you're saying
from the outside,
53:09 that it's just like seeing a rattler,
and you don't go near it,
53:11 there's nothing to it.
53:13 K: It is like that with me.
H: Yes.
53:16 K: Because I don't want to achieve
nirvana, or heaven, or anything.
53:20 I say, 'Look'
- you follow?
53:23 H: Well, I think it's interesting,
why it looks so deep
53:26 when in fact it isn't.
53:30 K: No, sir, we are all
so very superficial.
53:35 Right?
53:37 And that seems
to satisfy us.
53:41 That's our...
good house, good wife,
53:44 good job, good relationship -
don't disturb anything.
53:51 I'll go to church,
you go to the mosque,
53:53 I'll go to the temple
- keep things as they are.
53:59 H: Then you're saying,
we don't even want to look at it.
54:01 K: Of course not.
H: But say, we come with a problem...
54:04 K: If Mrs. Thatcher and the gentleman
in Argentina looked at it,
54:08 how tribalistic they are
- they would stop it.
54:17 But they don't, because
the public doesn't want it.
54:20 British - you follow?
54:23 We are educated to be cruel
to each other.
54:30 I won't go
into all that.
54:37 So, a healthy mind
is that, sir.
54:41 A healthy mind is
without any conflict.
54:52 Then it is
a holistic mind.
54:58 And then there's a possibility
of that which is sacred to be.
55:03 Otherwise all this
is so childish.