Krishnamurti Subtitles

A crisis in our consciousness

Ojai - 12 May 1985

Public Talk 2

0:32 Krishnamurti: May we continue
0:34 with what we were talking about
yesterday morning.
0:47 We have got the next two talks
0:51 – three talks, rather –
0:53 today and next Saturday
and Sunday.
1:00 We have to cover
a great deal of ground.
1:07 We must talk over together
1:11 the question of time,
1:16 thought,
1:19 and the various forms of fear,
1:25 and the everlasting pursuit
of pleasure,
1:30 satisfaction, gratification,
1:35 and also we should talk over
1:41 sorrow
1:44 – whether it is possible
to end sorrow.
1:51 And also love and compassion,
1:56 death,
1:58 and the religious mind,
2:02 or the brain.
2:07 And also we should go into
the question of meditation,
2:14 and ask ourselves
if there is anything
2:18 beyond all the travail of man,
2:24 all this confusion,
2:28 all this loneliness
and despair and anxiety,
2:34 if there is anything sacred,
2:41 And so we have a great deal
of ground to cover,
2:48 if you are willing.
2:53 As we said yesterday,
2:55 we are not imposing
anything on you,
3:01 not trying to convince you
of anything.
3:07 And the speaker really means it.
3:11 We are not trying to convert you,
do propaganda
3:17 or program you,
3:21 because we are apt to be
rather gullible,
3:27 easily satisfied with new forms
of experiences and sensations.
3:38 So we should together
3:42 – not that the speaker
is the only talker –
3:50 but together,
you and the speaker
3:56 are going to look into
all these matters.
4:02 Not only verbally
or analytically,
4:08 which is comparatively easy,
4:13 but rather
4:17 go much deeper
than mere rationalisation,
4:24 explanation,
4:26 and description.
4:30 If that is clearly understood
between us,
4:36 that the speaker doesn't want
anything from you,
4:41 fortunately,
4:46 neither your applause
4:50 – please, your applause
at the end of the talks –
4:55 or your encouragement
or discouragement.
5:02 Literally,
he doesn't want a thing from you.
5:07 So you can all be quiet,
relaxed, and listen.
5:19 It has been one of our problems,
5:23 perhaps for many,
many millennia,
5:28 the question of guilt.
5:34 It is important
to understand this question,
5:38 why human beings
throughout the world
5:46 have this sense of guilt.
5:52 Having been told from childhood
to do something
5:57 and not being able to do it
like most children, happily,
6:03 but unfortunately they cultivate
this sense of guilt.
6:12 And also in religions,
especially in Christianity,
6:20 the original sin
6:22 – you must know all about it
if you are Christian –
6:26 and one who saves you
from that sin.
6:30 So you begin to have guilt
there too.
6:35 That we are all guilty,
6:38 we are all the product
of original sin
6:42 whatever that may mean.
6:45 And also,
6:49 we are always falling short
of our own ideals.
6:56 And thereby also
one feels guilty.
7:03 You must know this.
Probably most of us do.
7:08 Either we are aware of it
7:14 or it is deeply hidden
in most people.
7:20 We are indifferent to all that,
7:23 and if one awakens to it,
7:28 knows the process of guilt,
7:31 what is implied in it.
7:36 And also there are those who love
to keep other people feeling guilty.
7:44 Then you have them
under your thumb
7:47 and they love
that kind of power.
7:52 So there is the guilt
of not behaving rightly,
7:59 according to some tradition
8:01 or according to your own
pattern of thought,
8:04 and not being able
to reach that level
8:10 one begins to feel guilty,
and so on.
8:17 And also
there is the other question.
8:22 We are living with something
dreadful around us,
8:35 something very, very ugly.
8:41 Surely we all must be
aware of it.
8:44 Not only the ugliness,
the naughtiness,
8:48 the brutality of wars,
8:51 but also this tremendous
8:58 – if one can call it evil,
9:00 the speaker doesn't like
to use that word –
9:06 but the constant pressure,
9:11 influence of certain ideologies,
9:17 like the totalitarian
Communist ideologies,
9:23 which is completely monstrous
and deadly,
9:30 if you know all about it,
9:34 and we have to live with that
next door.
9:41 It is our brother
across the wall.
9:46 Not only the Berlin wall,
9:48 but the wall that exists
to push this away
9:53 or to fight it or face it.
9:57 And we are living with that.
10:02 If you are at all aware
of all this,
10:07 not only the monstrosities
and the cruelty of war,
10:15 but the ideology of wars.
10:26 And how do we meet that,
10:29 not only
as individuals but collectively,
10:37 and what is the response
of each one of us?
10:45 We are living with something
in the world
10:51 that is becoming
more and more ugly,
10:57 more and more destructive,
11:01 tyrannical.
11:04 This is happening
the world over,
11:09 it isn't just in certain spots
of the world,
11:13 it is gradually creeping.
11:18 And what is our response
to all that?
11:23 Is it indifference?
11:28 Is it we don't care what happens
in the other field?
11:36 Is it that we don't want
to face all this?
11:44 And if we do face it,
what can we do?
11:53 Not organisationally,
11:57 because that always ends up
in another kind of mess.
12:06 What do we, as human beings
living on this earth,
12:14 – which is also being
gradually destroyed
12:17 because of overpopulation,
12:22 more and more big cities,
12:25 and our indifference to nature –
12:35 what is our responsibility
to all this?
12:45 Do we feel at all responsible?
12:52 Responsible in the sense
12:55 not only to your wife or husband
or to your family,
12:59 but to the rest of mankind,
13:04 whether you be Protestant,
13:07 Hindu, Buddhist
– those are all just names,
13:12 labels, without much depth.
13:24 Will you go into
all this matter?
13:28 Please don't wait
13:32 – if I may most respectfully
point out –
13:39 for the speaker to tell you
what to do.
13:44 Which would be another form
of cultivation of guilt.
13:52 But rather,
in talking things over together,
13:58 observing,
14:00 hearing each other
very carefully,
14:04 not merely to the words
but behind the words,
14:11 the deep significance of a word
and what it signifies,
14:18 then we don't have to tell
each other what to do.
14:27 So there is guilt,
14:33 and there is the thing
with which we are living daily,
14:40 and what is the relationship
of that,
14:45 of these two, to fear.
14:53 And in the enquiring
into this question of fear,
15:01 – that which is brutal, terrible,
that is happening in the world,
15:06 and also
our own sense of inadequacy,
15:13 which is another form of guilt –
15:18 what is the relationship
of all this to fear
15:24 and what is fear,
15:30 not the superficial or deep fears
but the root,
15:39 not only the trunk of it
but the many, many branches of it,
15:46 what is the root of it?
15:49 So we are going to enquire
15:54 not only into time,
16:00 because time is related to fear,
as we shall go into it.
16:06 What is time, by which we live
16:11 – today, tomorrow,
the past, the future –
16:17 and also what is thinking?
16:26 Because we live by thinking.
16:30 Everything we do, act,
16:36 is based on thought.
16:41 So may we go into all that?
16:47 It is a nice,
not too hot a morning,
16:52 pleasant under the trees,
16:57 and a rather cool breeze,
which one hopes you will not mind,
17:05 and it is rather convenient
to go to sleep here,
17:14 if you are well covered
with blankets, etc.
17:19 Nice Sunday morning,
17:22 free of all the office work,
and labour and travail and skill.
17:29 And under the trees
in the dappled light
17:32 it is rather pleasant.
17:35 'You can go on talking,
but it doesn't matter,
17:40 I will go to sleep
and you go on.'
17:48 If that is what you want,
go to sleep.
17:56 But if we are serious,
18:00 earnest, which we must be
18:02 because that is one of the crises
we have come to.
18:08 It is no longer
mere entertainment,
18:15 no longer
mere intellectual game,
18:24 or seeking sensation
from one thing to another,
18:30 or from another.
18:33 We have got to face
some extraordinary crises in life
18:40 – life being our consciousness.
18:46 The crisis is not in economics,
18:50 political, religious,
18:53 but the crisis
is in our consciousness.
19:00 Why we are what we are after
thousands and thousands of years,
19:08 that is where the crisis is.
19:14 And merely to solve
the economic crisis
19:20 or the political crisis
19:26 or the brutality
of ideologies and wars,
19:31 it is not only there
but it is much deeper.
19:37 So we are going to
enquire first,
19:42 because they are all related,
19:44 all problems are related
to each other,
19:47 they are not separate.
19:49 If one can solve one problem
19:58 then you have solved
all other problems
20:04 because there is
no separate problem,
20:10 whether it be sexual,
20:12 whether it be the desire to fulfil,
and so on.
20:19 So in the resolution of one
the whole thing is solved,
20:26 if you know how to do it.
20:31 So what is time?
20:43 Time not only by the sunrise
and the sunset,
20:49 the darkness of a night
and the glory of a morning.
20:59 Time as the past,
21:03 not only the past
of one's own life
21:08 but the vast historical past,
21:13 the story of mankind,
21:15 which is the history of mankind.
21:20 That is, the long centuries,
21:24 millennia upon millennia past,
21:29 and the present
21:37 – and the past modifying itself
through the present
21:43 becomes the future.
21:46 Time is a cycle,
21:50 it is a circle
21:54 in which we are caught.
22:02 So we should look at it closely,
22:07 not merely understand
it intellectually
22:11 but actually go into it,
if you will.
22:20 We are the past,
22:25 whether that past be one day
22:30 or many thousands of years.
22:36 The past being the knowledge,
22:39 the memories,
the remembrances,
22:43 concealed or open,
22:52 and from that past
is our action.
22:59 That past is the tradition,
23:05 that past is the religions of
Christianity with all its divisions
23:15 during the last 2000 years.
23:20 That is the past.
23:23 And in India and China
23:26 the past is 3 to 5000 years old,
23:33 with their tradition,
with their beliefs,
23:36 with their superstition,
with their nonsense.
23:42 So the past is what we are.
23:50 Without the past, you are not.
23:55 So that past,
that enormous past,
24:00 weighty past,
24:02 goes through and modifies itself
through the present.
24:11 You can see economically,
24:14 the pressures
change the present,
24:19 which is the past.
24:21 And the future
24:24 – tomorrow or the very end
of one's life and beyond,
24:31 not reincarnation,
we will go into all that presently –
24:36 the future.
24:39 That future is the modified form
of the past.
24:45 It is so obvious.
24:52 And that future
24:59 is in the now.
25:03 Right?
25:07 Because the past modifying itself
is the future.
25:16 And that future is now,
25:19 because if I am smoking,
I will smoke tomorrow,
25:24 if I am greedy,
tomorrow I will be greedy still,
25:30 and so on.
25:32 So the past is in the present.
25:37 Please understand
this very simple fact.
25:42 This whole movement
25:45 from the past through the present
modifying itself as the future,
25:50 and that future is now because
unless I fundamentally change,
25:58 the future will be
what I am now.
26:02 Right?
26:03 See the truth
of this simple fact.
26:08 Not I am persuading you,
26:11 not that you are being told
or pressurised,
26:16 or computerised.
26:19 This is a simple fact.
26:23 If I am vicious, cruel,
brutal today,
26:29 as I have been in the past,
26:33 I will be that tomorrow.
26:39 You can't get away from it.
26:42 If I am quarrelling with my wife
or husband and so on,
26:47 I will do it tomorrow too.
26:50 So tomorrow is now.
26:55 And to break this chain
in which we are caught
27:00 there must be a mutation now.
27:05 You follow this? Simple fact.
27:12 This is the whole cycle of time,
27:18 isn't it?
27:24 And is it possible
to bring about this mutation?
27:34 What is it that is being
27:39 – not transformed,
27:40 the word 'transformed' means
27:43 moving from one form
to another form,
27:47 therefore it is not mutation –
27:51 what is it that is being
radically changed
27:58 – even that word 'change'
implies time,
28:02 changing from this to that.
28:05 So we have to stick to that word
– to bring about a mutation.
28:12 That is,
a radical ending of something,
28:17 and the beginning of something
totally new.
28:26 Isn't it that our consciousness,
28:32 each one's consciousness,
28:37 which is what we are.
28:42 There are lots of books
written about this stuff,
28:47 but it is very simple.
28:50 I don't know why people like things
very complex.
28:56 It is probably very exciting to get
talking about things rather complex.
29:03 But it is rather simple.
29:05 What is one's consciousness?
29:12 Surely what one believes,
29:16 what one has faith in,
29:20 what one desires,
29:24 one's nationality, one's fears,
29:28 one's terrors, one's depression,
29:31 anxiety,
29:35 loneliness,
29:39 despair,
29:44 cruelty,
29:47 guilt,
29:51 fear, pleasure, sorrow,
29:53 the multiplication of desires
29:59 all that is our consciousness,
30:05 isn't it?
30:09 Let's be simple about it.
30:14 You see, to approach
very complex problems
30:17 one must come
simply to it first.
30:20 Then it becomes complex,
30:23 then you can understand it.
30:24 But if you begin already
with complexity,
30:28 then the thing will become
more and more complex,
30:32 we will never resolve anything.
30:38 So, our consciousness
is all its content.
30:45 You can put into that content
everything you can think of:
30:51 your knowledge,
your superstitions,
30:55 your fears, and so on.
30:59 The multiplication
of human experiences
31:03 and trials and attempts, etc.
31:16 And can the content,
31:18 which is what we are,
31:22 which is not only the past
but the future
31:26 – and that future is now, we went
into all that just now, briefly.
31:31 The whole of that is you,
31:38 is the persona, is the ego,
31:41 is the tremendous self-interest.
31:49 And we are asking, can that
31:54 – that consciousness is the result
of vast evolution,
32:07 not only the survival
32:09 but also
the knowledge of surviving –
32:22 so can there be
32:26 a total mutation
in that consciousness?
32:31 And if we rely on time,
as we do,
32:40 then we will begin
the same old pattern again.
32:43 I wonder if we understand
each other.
32:49 The speaker recently talked
32:55 – if I may most
humbly point out,
32:57 this is not out of vanity
I am informing you –
33:01 he talked to the United Nations.
33:07 I don't know why he was invited,
but he went there.
33:14 And after the talk, one of
the high authorities there said,
33:19 'I have come to the conclusion,
conviction rather,
33:25 that after 40 years
working in this organisation,
33:33 I have come to the conclusion
that I must not kill'.
33:40 40 years it took him.
33:46 No, just see the significance
of it.
33:57 That it takes the human brain
to come to some truth
34:07 during 40 years.
34:13 That is, not to kill
another human being.
34:19 And the whole organisation
is based on
34:22 not to bring about wars,
34:26 prevent wars
34:27 – they haven't done,
that is irrelevant.
34:31 But the whole point is
how the human brain
34:35 refuses to face fact and act.
34:43 And we think that during time
we will resolve everything.
34:51 Time will help you to forget,
34:55 and so on.
34:57 So that is the nature of time:
35:01 the past modifying itself
through the present
35:08 and continuing as the future.
35:12 So the future, the past,
and the present are one
35:20 unless there is fundamental,
35:26 radical ending of all that.
35:30 Otherwise you will be
what you are tomorrow.
35:36 We are unfortunately
miserable people, unhappy people,
35:45 which is a fact,
35:47 and if we don't change now
we will be tomorrow the same.
35:51 It is simple reality, truth of it.
35:57 And also,
what is the relationship of time
36:04 – not the chronological time
36:08 what is the relationship of time
to thought?
36:13 And what is the relationship
of time, thought, to fear?
36:19 You follow?
36:22 May we go on?
You are not too bored with all this?
36:29 I hope the sun is warming you.
36:33 But please, keep awake for another
50 minutes or so, will you?
36:43 Which is not an insult,
please, asking this.
36:49 So we are asking,
what is the relationship
36:55 of time, thought, and fear.
37:00 We have more or less gone into
the question of time,
37:05 so let us go into the question
of thought.
37:11 What is thinking?
37:20 The speaker is using words
37:24 to communicate what he is
supposed to be thinking,
37:31 and you hear the words
37:35 and translate those words
37:37 according to your pleasure
or displeasure,
37:40 or you are casually hearing,
37:42 or probably you don't understand
English quite well,
37:45 or you do understand
English very well
37:47 and give certain significance
to those words.
37:53 Thinking.
37:55 This is the whole process
of thinking.
37:58 Thought has put man
on the moon.
38:04 Thought has created
the instruments of war.
38:12 Thought has created
the destruction of man.
38:20 Put together the most
amazing cathedrals in the world,
38:24 temples and mosques
38:27 – if you have seen some of them,
they are marvellous beauties.
38:33 And thought has also created
the vast technological world.
38:41 Thought has also established a
relationship between man and woman,
38:53 which we will go into presently,
39:00 Thought produces
all our actions,
39:02 so thought is very important.
39:08 Not to expand or give
greater depth to thought,
39:14 but we are enquiring
into the very nature
39:17 and structure of thought,
39:22 of thinking.
39:25 Right?
Shall we go into it?
39:33 The speaker doesn't know
39:35 if you have really gone
into this question at all.
39:39 Probably one has never asked,
39:41 even the professionals
don't ask,
39:44 so why should you?
39:48 You are not educated
to enquire,
39:52 you are educated to conform,
39:57 educated to say,
yes, I have memorised,
40:03 I have acquired information,
40:05 and I will get a good job,
or no job,
40:07 or whatever one does.
40:10 But one has never gone into
this question really very deeply
40:17 – enquiring what is thinking.
40:22 Why does the brain,
40:25 which is after all
our only instrument we have,
40:28 neurologically, biologically,
40:34 it is the centre
of all our existence.
40:40 And that thing inside the skull,
40:46 which we call the brain,
40:50 that brain has never asked itself:
why am I constantly thinking,
40:57 chattering away like blazes
41:02 about everything
41:06 – what I did yesterday,
what I will do tomorrow,
41:09 what I am doing,
why this, why that,
41:13 dreaming at night
and all day long chattering.
41:19 What extraordinary
human beings we are.
41:25 So we must enquire
what is thought, what is thinking?
41:31 What is the origin of it?
41:37 Do you want my explanation?
41:43 You see,
that is what I am objecting to,
41:51 because you are not
actually enquiring.
41:57 You are waiting for somebody
to tell you.
42:03 Therefore he becomes the nasty guru
and you become the follower.
42:10 And the speaker says
please don't do that.
42:16 That is,
you will destroy not only yourself
42:20 but also the one who leads you.
42:26 So let's put aside all that nonsense
and enquire together.
42:37 The word 'together'
is important,
42:40 but don't let's go into that
for the moment.
42:44 So what is thinking?
42:48 Does thinking rely on memory?
42:58 The accumulated memories,
43:04 – I want to be a great man
43:06 because I have seen
a great many people,
43:08 great men,
having a good time,
43:11 becoming famous, plenty of money,
plenty of cars, etc.
43:17 So, there is this vast collection
of memories.
43:22 Not only personal,
43:28 but also the remembrance
of many things past,
43:34 the remembrance historically,
43:41 collected memories,
43:44 conscious memories
and deep layers of memories
43:50 – aren't we the memories?
43:53 Aren't we a bundle
of memories?
43:56 Forgive me for using that word
and putting it so limited,
44:02 in a limited manner,
aren't we all memories?
44:07 And what are memories based on?
44:13 Please enquire with me,
don't just listen to the poor man.
44:19 Go into it with the speaker.
44:23 What are memories based on?
44:27 Aren't they based on knowledge?
44:34 The tremendous accumulation
of information as knowledge,
44:42 whether it be vast
44:46 – not vast –
limited knowledge of science,
44:51 adding to itself all the time,
44:57 and that knowledge which is being
added to must always be limited
45:04 because you are adding to it,
therefore it is limited.
45:12 One doesn't know about aerodynamics
or the astrophysics,
45:19 but I will gather, I will get it
experiment after experiment.
45:26 So, knowledge
is based on experience.
45:32 Right?
45:37 And experience,
or experience and all that,
45:42 is essentially limited.
45:48 Isn't it?
45:51 All experience, it doesn't matter
whatever experience it is,
45:58 it must be limited because there is
an experiencer who is experiencing.
46:06 And the experiencer is the past
46:13 – his memories, his accumulation,
his hopes, his fears,
46:17 his wanting to be enlightened,
his wanting to be godly,
46:21 his wanting to say,
I want to be popular,
46:23 therefore I will learn a few phrases
and translate in my own way
46:27 and then become
– blah, blah, blah.
46:37 So, experience
must be recognised,
46:40 otherwise
it is no experience at all.
46:44 And the one who recognises
is the past
46:48 – it is all so silly, isn't it?
46:53 So, the experiences
are always limited.
47:02 I experience the divine,
47:06 that tremendous feeling
of elation,
47:08 temporarily – you can fall back.
47:14 So, experiences
are always limited,
47:19 therefore knowledge
is always limited.
47:27 Always.
47:30 In the past, or now,
47:32 to which that knowledge
is being added to, is limited.
47:37 So memories are limited.
47:40 So thought is limited.
47:43 Right?
47:46 I wonder if we understand this,
47:49 actually the truth of it,
47:50 not just intellectual concept of it
or the idea of it,
47:55 the truth of it,
that thought will always be limited.
48:03 Thought can imagine the limitless,
but it is still limited.
48:09 Thought has invented gods
all over the world,
48:13 for the last millennia
upon millennia,
48:15 those gods are limited,
48:23 So whatever the activity of thought
and its action,
48:28 must always be limited.
48:30 Therefore thought
is not holistic.
48:34 You understand?
48:39 If we can realise
this simple fact
48:44 that the thought
and the thinker are one,
48:49 and therefore
they are always limited.
48:55 Therefore all the religions
of the world,
49:00 though they say divine revelation
direct from the horse's mouth
49:07 – I am not being irrelevant
or cynical,
49:11 but that is so,
they all claim direct...
49:20 and putting on medieval dresses
and robes,
49:23 and all the trickery of that
goes on in the name of religion
49:27 is invented by thought.
49:33 And therefore
the whole hierarchical
49:36 and the religious structure
is limited.
49:39 And their belief, their faith,
their ritual
49:43 etc., is limited
because it is based on thought.
49:51 So the question arises,
if you will kindly listen:
49:58 is there something
beyond thought,
50:02 or everything is thought?
50:06 Not nature, of course.
50:09 The tiger wasn't put together
by thought – thank God –
50:16 or the swift gazelle.
50:24 So, what is the relationship
50:30 of time, thought to fear?
50:34 We are talking about fear.
50:37 Is there fear
without time and thought?
50:45 Please look at it carefully.
50:50 Is there a sense of fear
50:55 that is not rooted
in thought and time?
51:04 I have done something
some time ago,
51:10 and I am frightened of that,
51:13 guilty.
51:17 Something that I have done ugly,
51:20 not straight,
not excellent in its quality,
51:28 and I am ashamed of it,
51:31 and I am frightened of it,
I feel guilty about it,
51:36 I have lived with it
51:43 – and fear of all that.
51:48 Therefore the root of fear
is time and thought.
51:57 Fear of what might happen.
52:00 I have got a good reputation,
52:05 but tomorrow
you might not turn up
52:13 – not that I would care,
but I'm just...
52:19 So there is always
the shadow of fear with us,
52:25 shadow of this fear
between man and woman,
52:32 what might happen.
52:34 And the ultimate fear is death,
52:38 and out of this fear
all the gods are invented.
52:46 So one asks is there an end
to fear, total ending?
52:55 You are asking this question,
not I, not the speaker.
53:04 Which means,
53:07 is there an end
to thought and time?
53:13 You understand the relation?
53:15 The logical sequence
of all this.
53:21 It is not only logical,
but factual.
53:27 Is there an ending
to all this process,
53:34 which causes fear?
53:39 And one knows the results of fear,
the consequences of fear,
53:46 all the cruelty,
53:52 all the ugliness,
the shrinking,
53:56 the whole world of fear
which is dark.
54:03 And that breeds a great deal
of neuroticism, etc.
54:12 So is there an ending
to all this?
54:18 Not only to ask a question
of that kind
54:23 – the very question
sounds rather silly –
54:29 you can't end time.
54:33 You can't end thought.
54:40 Because to go to your house
from here you need thinking.
54:44 To turn on the ignition
you need thinking.
54:51 On Monday morning you are probably
going to an office
54:53 or something or other,
you need to think.
54:59 So to say, can thought end,
or time end,
55:02 is not the actual question.
55:05 But rather to ask,
55:08 do I really comprehend, understand
the truth of time and thought?
55:16 Because thought has its place,
time has its place.
55:21 But why should fear arise
from thinking?
55:26 You understand the question?
55:30 Why should time be a factor
in fear?
55:36 So, if I understand
the whole picture,
55:42 the whole design,
55:45 the whole map of time,
thought, guilt, or fear,
55:52 then the very observation of it,
55:57 the very eyes, seeing,
56:01 not only the eyes,
but your whole being looking at it.
56:06 That means giving your whole
attention to this map of fear,
56:13 not one spot in the map,
56:17 not one village or town
or the road,
56:20 but the whole map of it.
56:24 Can one observe
without any distortion,
56:28 this whole structure of it?
56:35 Of course one can.
56:39 That is to give attention
56:44 to pure observation
without any distortion.
56:55 Then that whole chain is broken.
57:06 What time is it, sirs?
57:09 Audience: Twenty-six until one.
57:14 K: Twenty five minutes.
57:17 Shall we go on
little while longer?
57:19 A: Yes.
K: Aren't you tired?
57:21 A: No.
K: Why not?
57:29 Are you all so actively thinking,
working, applying, or just saying,
57:35 well, it is a nice day,
let's talk about it.
57:45 One also,
in understanding fear,
57:52 one should look at desire.
58:00 We are driven by desire,
58:05 not only for God,
whatever that may mean,
58:10 not only for success,
for power, position,
58:14 being at the centre
of everything,
58:19 like in Washington
58:25 or in Delhi or in London
or in Paris or in Moscow,
58:29 or Peking – shall we include
Peking – better.
58:36 We want so many things in life,
58:42 not only physical things:
58:47 good cars, good clothes,
58:51 having a nice body,
a nice face, nice cosmetic,
58:55 you know, the whole game of it.
59:00 Commercialism in this country
is rampant
59:03 – buy, buy, buy, buy.
59:10 And desire to be good,
59:15 desire not to hurt
my closest friend
59:20 but it doesn't matter
if I hurt others,
59:21 but somebody nearby, and so on.
59:24 We have got so many desires.
59:30 To be great, to be this,
to be that.
59:33 And we have never asked, perhaps,
what is desire?
59:40 Why religions,
the monks have suppressed desire.
59:49 They burn with it,
59:52 but they suppress it.
1:00:00 The speaker was once walking
behind a lot of monks
1:00:05 in the Himalayas.
1:00:09 Have you ever been
to the Himalayas?
1:00:12 Some marvellous hills,
marvellous mountains.
1:00:18 It was a place where you see
1:00:23 nearly 400 miles
across the horizon,
1:00:27 snow-capped,
1:00:30 great valleys,
1:00:32 great marvellous blue sky,
1:00:36 unpolluted, sharp, clear.
1:00:43 400 or 350 miles
from range to range to range,
1:00:50 the highest peaks.
1:00:58 The speaker was walking
behind a path
1:01:05 and there were monks
in front of me.
1:01:09 They were chanting,
1:01:12 and never looking at any flower,
any sky, any tree,
1:01:18 and the rivers, they have little
streams singing down the hill,
1:01:23 dancing waters.
1:01:26 And there they were,
1:01:28 completely absorbed
1:01:33 in what they were
supposed to be thinking.
1:01:38 Didn't dare to look up
and see the beauty of the sky,
1:01:45 the trees and the rivers
and the flowers.
1:01:49 Because that is a distraction.
1:01:53 Like all the monks
all over the world.
1:01:57 So there is this desire
in every human being,
1:02:06 and without suppressing
or denying
1:02:12 or transforming or transmuting
into something higher,
1:02:19 which becomes another form
of desire,
1:02:23 can we
– sorry to laugh –
1:02:27 can we look at desire
and find out what is the nature,
1:02:33 what is the movement,
what is the structure of it?
1:02:40 Quite objectively.
1:02:46 What is desire?
1:02:50 What is the beginning of it?
1:02:53 Not the ending of it.
1:02:56 What is the origin,
the source,
1:02:59 the movement of it?
1:03:03 Shall we go into it?
1:03:19 We live by sensation.
1:03:23 Biologically it is necessary.
1:03:26 Otherwise we are paralysed.
1:03:33 Sensation plays a tremendous part
in our life, not only sexually,
1:03:40 but wanting, having more and more
and more sensations.
1:03:49 Sensation is the result
of seeing
1:03:58 – will you kindly follow this
for a little –
1:04:01 seeing, contact, sensation.
1:04:07 Right?
1:04:08 Seeing those hills
and saying, how beautiful,
1:04:14 getting a sensation from it,
1:04:17 and that is sensation.
1:04:21 I read a beautiful poem
and sensation,
1:04:26 or see a marvellous painting,
that is another sensation
1:04:32 and so on.
1:04:37 That is a natural thing, sensation,
isn't it?
1:04:42 You look at the trees
and the leaves and the sky,
1:04:47 and you say,
how beautiful it is.
1:04:51 We are not talking about
what is beauty.
1:04:54 Perhaps we will at the next meeting
if we have time.
1:05:03 But we live by sensation,
1:05:05 the whole nervous organism
is sensation.
1:05:10 What is the relationship
of sensation to desire?
1:05:17 You understand my question?
1:05:18 Because we are enquiring
into desire.
1:05:23 What is the relationship
between sensation and desire?
1:05:30 Why they are always
instantly related.
1:05:34 I wish I could always live under
these trees with a nice house
1:05:43 – and then desire: I must have
a nice house under the tree.
1:05:51 So what is the actual fact,
1:05:56 the relationship,
the communication,
1:06:00 between sensation
and what is called desire?
1:06:05 Right?
1:06:07 Is there an interval
– please listen –
1:06:12 is there an interval
between sensation
1:06:16 and the movement of desire,
1:06:19 a gap,
1:06:21 or they are instant.
1:06:28 See something, grab it,
if you want.
1:06:35 So we are going to find out
if there is a division,
1:06:39 if there is a separation,
if there is an interval.
1:06:42 Right?
1:06:48 There is sensation
in seeing a beautiful garden,
1:06:55 well kept,
1:06:57 a lawn that has been mowed
and rolled for the last 500 years.
1:07:06 There are such lawns.
1:07:10 And you see it and you say,
my God, how marvellous it is,
1:07:15 what depth,
what beauty in that grass.
1:07:20 And you wish you could
have it in your back yard.
1:07:26 So watch it,
please just watch it closely.
1:07:30 Sensation,
1:07:36 seeing that grass,
1:07:39 rich, heavy,
deep-rooted grass,
1:07:47 then the sensation,
1:07:50 then wanting it in your garden.
1:07:56 So that is, desire is born
1:08:00 – please listen –
1:08:02 the moment,
the second thought takes control
1:08:11 or gives shape to sensation,
1:08:18 and then at that second,
desire is born.
1:08:23 You follow?
1:08:26 That is, seeing that lawn,
1:08:32 protected behind walls,
1:08:37 and seeing it, the sensation,
1:08:42 and thought saying,
I wish I had that.
1:08:48 At that second desire is there.
1:08:52 You understand?
1:08:56 Now, we are asking,
can there be a movement, an interval
1:09:02 between the sensation
and thought giving it a shape,
1:09:08 an image.
1:09:10 You understand?
1:09:12 That is, sensation,
which is natural,
1:09:14 seeing that beautiful grass,
1:09:17 that field,
1:09:21 that lawn,
1:09:24 and then thought comes in and says,
I wish I had it.
1:09:30 At that second, desire is.
1:09:34 Right?
1:09:36 That is the truth.
1:09:39 So we are asking, can these two
be separate for awhile?
1:09:52 See a shirt in the window,
1:09:58 go and touch it and say,
what beautiful material it is,
1:10:04 and leave it
– we don't leave it there.
1:10:06 We say, I wish I had it.
1:10:11 Then desire is born.
1:10:16 So, the interval can be kept
1:10:21 – the gap can be kept separate
for a while,
1:10:24 then you will see
the movement of desire,
1:10:27 how it comes into being.
1:10:29 Then you can stretch
that space indefinitely
1:10:35 or keep it very narrow.
1:10:37 You understand
what I am saying?
1:10:40 When you understand this,
1:10:42 then discipline
is not necessary at all
1:10:46 – control or suppress
or fight it.
1:10:52 You understand all this?
1:10:55 Not verbally – in your heart.
1:11:00 Then you will do it naturally.
1:11:02 When you see
something beautiful,
1:11:04 it is beautiful,
and there it is.
1:11:08 You can't have those mountains
1:11:19 nor that beautiful lawn.
1:11:23 One can look at it, admire it,
1:11:26 and say, how lovely,
and feel it.
1:11:32 That requires great alertness,
1:11:38 a sense of deep attention to it.
1:11:42 But we rarely give all that,
1:11:46 except for money
or for pleasure.
1:11:51 This is much more stringent,
1:11:56 requires a great deal
of austerity.
1:12:03 The word 'austerity'
comes from Greek,
1:12:06 which means 'dry mouth'.
1:12:15 And then we have translated it, etc.
– austere:
1:12:18 a few clothes, one meal a day
and all that stuff.
1:12:23 But austerity is something
1:12:27 not the trivial stuff.
1:12:32 To be so attentive
1:12:38 to this movement
of sensation and desire,
1:12:44 and all the things
we have talked about.
1:12:50 To watch it very carefully,
1:12:54 see every thought in you,
1:12:59 not let it go by without
understanding why it arose,
1:13:04 what is its cause
1:13:06 – that is real austerity.
1:13:13 Not joining a monastery
and all that kind of stuff.
1:13:19 Austerity is in our daily life.
1:13:26 So we have talked about
all this.
1:13:30 Tuesday and Thursday
will be questions,
1:13:34 next Saturday and Sunday
we will talk about other things
1:13:39 – pleasure,
1:13:44 sorrow, pain,
1:13:49 and all the implications
of loneliness,
1:13:54 death, if we have time,
1:13:59 and what is religion,
what is a religious mind.
1:14:06 Is there something which thought
has not touched at all?
1:14:13 The limitless, the immense,
1:14:17 the nameless.
1:14:21 Which is not an invitation
for you to come.
1:14:26 It is part of our life,
1:14:31 not all the buying, buying, buying
and selling,
1:14:37 going to office
every day of one's life,
1:14:44 conflict and all that.
1:14:48 One must also give one's energy
to find this out.
1:14:56 Not merely live on faith,
symbols and all that.
1:15:05 So perhaps
we will see each other
1:15:10 the day after tomorrow
or next Saturday and Sunday.