Krishnamurti Subtitles

Creation is never ending

Ojai - 18 May 1985

Public Talk 3

0:25 Krishnamurti:
It is a beautiful morning, isn't it?
0:35 And I hope you are
enjoying yourself.
0:47 We have only
this morning's conversation
0:51 between you and the speaker,
0:55 and also tomorrow morning.
1:02 We have to go into various subjects
or various problems.
1:12 We are going to talk over
1:15 the whole question of pleasure,
1:20 sorrow, death,
1:25 and what is it that human beings
1:29 throughout the world have sought,
1:33 beyond the physical daily
troublesome, boring, lonely life,
1:41 what is there beyond,
1:45 not only for the individual,
1:48 but the whole of humanity.
1:54 What is there that is not touched
by thought,
2:02 that has no name,
2:06 that may be eternal,
that is lasting, enduring?
2:11 So we are going to talk over
all these matters,
2:15 including meditation,
2:19 perhaps yoga too.
2:22 Everybody seems to be
terribly interested in yoga.
2:27 They want to keep young
and beautiful.
2:38 Shall we begin with that?
2:44 I thought you would be
interested in it.
2:52 Yoga has now become
a business affair
2:56 like everything else.
3:01 There are teachers of yoga
all over the world,
3:10 and they are coining money,
as usual.
3:15 And yoga at one time,
3:21 I have been told by those
who know a great deal about this,
3:27 it was only taught
to the very, very, very few.
3:33 Yoga doesn't mean merely
to keep your body healthy,
3:39 normal, active, intelligent.
3:44 But also it meant,
3:47 the meaning of that word
in Sanskrit
3:50 means 'join together'.
3:54 Joining the higher
and the lower.
3:59 I don't know who joins it,
but that is the tradition.
4:07 And also,
4:09 there are various forms of yoga.
4:16 But the highest form
is called raja yoga,
4:20 which is the king of yogas.
4:24 There, that system,
4:28 or that way of living
4:33 was concerned not merely
with the physical wellbeing,
4:41 but also much more strict
4:49 There was no discipline,
4:52 no system,
4:54 nothing to be repeated
day after day.
5:02 But to have a brain
that is in order,
5:09 that is all the time active
but not chattering,
5:16 but active,
5:19 that activity
5:21 – the speaker is interpreting
all this.
5:24 Probably they wouldn't
tell you all this.
5:28 The speaker has talked to
various scholars and pundits
5:32 and real yoga teachers.
5:36 There are very few of them now.
5:39 So to have a very deeply,
orderly, moral, ethical life,
5:47 not just merely
take various postures
5:52 but to lead a very moral,
ethical, disciplined life,
6:01 that was the real meaning
of the highest form of yoga.
6:08 Thereby you kept
the body healthy.
6:12 The body was not first,
of primary importance.
6:17 What was of primary importance
was to have a brain, a mind,
6:23 a wellbeing that is clear,
6:30 – not in the sense of movement,
6:33 but in itself active, alive,
6:37 full of vitality.
6:41 But now it has become
rather shallow,
6:46 profitable and
becoming mediocre.
6:55 The speaker was taught
6:59 – oh, many years ago –
7:01 something that could not
be taught to another.
7:05 Let's leave it at that,
shall we?
7:08 Is that enough talk about yoga?
7:11 Questioner:
Could you go into it more?
7:12 K: Or you want me to tell you
what I was taught?
7:20 I am sorry, I can't tell you.
7:24 It is not to be taught
to the casual.
7:31 It is something that you do,
7:35 perhaps every day
as the speaker does for an hour,
7:43 to have perfect control
of your body.
7:47 So that you are watchful
– I won't use the word 'control,'
7:50 but to watch your body,
not make any movement,
7:55 any gesture,
which is not observed.
8:02 There is no unnecessary
movement of the body.
8:08 But it is not controlled.
8:11 That is where the difference is.
8:13 May we drop that subject
and go on to something else?
8:19 I know you are reluctant,
8:24 because you think,
8:26 perhaps you may consider yoga
to be something
8:31 to be practised day after day
8:34 to develop your muscles,
8:38 have a muscular body.
8:41 It is not that at all.
8:46 It is something
you live all day long.
8:52 Something you watch,
8:56 observe,
8:59 be clear about.
9:04 We were talking about,
the other Saturday and Sunday,
9:12 the question of guilt,
9:18 being psychologically hurt,
9:24 and the various forms
of relationship.
9:29 Not only with human beings,
with each other,
9:34 but also our relationship
to nature,
9:40 to all the beauty of the world,
9:44 to the mountains, to the meadows,
to the groves,
9:51 and the hills and the shadows,
9:56 the lakes and the rivers.
9:59 To have a relationship.
10:06 We talked a little bit about
that relationship too.
10:15 Where there is an image
made by thought
10:20 between you and the mountain,
10:22 all the fields and the flowers,
10:28 as one makes an image about
one's wife or husband and so on,
10:36 that image prevents one from having
complete relationship with another.
10:47 And our relationship
with each other now,
10:52 between you and the speaker,
10:56 that relationship is very important
to understand.
11:02 He is not persuading you
to any point of view.
11:11 He is not putting
any kind of pressure
11:17 so that you listen,
accept or deny.
11:23 He has no authority.
11:26 He is not a guru.
11:29 He has an abomination of all this
idea of leadership psychologically
11:36 or spiritually,
if I can use that word.
11:40 It is an abhorrence to him.
11:44 And he really means it.
11:47 It is not something
to be taken lightly,
11:52 that the speaker pretends.
11:58 that is why one has to be
extremely honest in all this.
12:07 And we talked about
the activity of time.
12:18 We went into it fairly clearly.
12:23 And also
the movement of thought,
12:27 what is thinking.
12:30 We talked about that too.
12:34 Do you want the speaker
to repeat it again?
12:38 Please tell me.
12:40 If it is not clear,
12:42 the speaker has got
a great deal of patience about it.
12:50 Perhaps I won't even
use the word 'patience'.
12:55 So we talked about all that,
12:59 had a conversation
between you and the speaker.
13:05 Therefore that conversation
is carried on mutually.
13:11 It isn't one sided conversation.
13:17 And also,
13:20 we said the world
is made up of bullies
13:26 – the religious bullies,
13:30 the newspapers,
the politician,
13:35 the guru, the priests,
13:39 the bullies in the family.
13:44 And those bullies
make us feel guilty,
13:49 they attack first and
then you have to defend.
13:52 That is the game
that has been going on
13:56 in our relationship
with each other and so on.
14:01 So that brings about
this feeling of guilt.
14:06 We talked a great deal
about that.
14:10 And also we talked
last Sunday about fear.
14:18 Why human beings
who have evolved
14:23 through these many, many,
many millennia,
14:28 live with this terrible burden
called fear.
14:36 That fear is a sensation.
14:40 And sensation takes many forms,
14:45 the sensation of drugs,
alcohol and so on,
14:51 the sensation of sexuality,
14:55 the sensation of achieving
15:01 climbing the ladders,
15:02 either the mundane ladder
15:07 or the so-called spiritual ladder.
15:13 We talked also,
15:17 what is the relationship
between time and thought.
15:23 Or are they one?
15:28 And we went into that,
and also
15:34 what is the root of fear?
15:39 And we have many, many fears,
15:43 which destroy
not only the human capacity,
15:49 distort the brain,
15:54 distort or curtail or limit
15:59 both biological and
psychological activity.
16:05 What is the root of it,
root of fear?
16:09 We went into it.
16:11 We said the root of fear
is time and thought.
16:20 One can listen to all this
16:23 casually or seriously,
16:28 listen to each other's
16:32 But the words are not the thing.
16:37 Fear is not the word.
16:40 Or the word may create the fear.
16:45 You understand?
16:46 The word may create the fear,
16:50 or there is fear by itself.
16:55 Right?
16:58 The word is the picture,
is the idea.
17:04 But the fact of fear
is quite different.
17:10 So one has to be clear
that the word is not inducing,
17:15 cultivating fear
17:18 and then overcoming that fear,
17:23 which means overcoming the word
but not the fact.
17:28 You are following all this?
17:32 And we said
one has to face this fact.
17:37 And how one faces
this fact is all-important,
17:41 not the fact,
but how you approach it,
17:44 how you come to it.
17:50 If one has conclusions,
17:54 concepts,
17:57 how to get over fear,
18:00 how to suppress it,
18:02 or how to transcend it,
18:08 or go to somebody who will
help you to overcome that fear,
18:13 then that fear will continue
in different forms.
18:18 It may be one day
you are frightened of something,
18:21 the next day another.
18:24 And out of this fear we have done
terrible things to mankind.
18:32 We have done terrible things
to each other.
18:39 Out of this fear
of wanting security,
18:43 or having security,
18:46 we have destroyed human beings
by the million.
18:52 The last war and the previous war
showed it.
19:01 Where there is fear
there is God,
19:09 and all the comfort
that one derives out of illusion.
19:17 But when there is psychologically,
and therefore biologically,
19:22 not the other way around
19:25 – it is not
physical security first
19:29 and then
the psychological security after.
19:34 The socialists,
the communists,
19:38 the radicals,
so-called radicals,
19:40 have tried to establish order
19:47 as the communists are trying to do,
the totalitarians.
19:53 And they are not succeeding,
they are only suppressing.
19:59 But if one starts
20:05 to understand
this whole psychological structure
20:09 of every human being,
of oneself,
20:14 then one begins to understand
the nature of fear.
20:20 And it can be ended if we understand
the nature of time, thought,
20:26 which we went into.
20:32 And we ought to talk over
together this morning,
20:36 as it is
such a beautiful morning,
20:39 what is beauty.
20:43 Are you interested in this?
20:46 What is beauty?
20:52 The speaker is putting you
that question,
20:56 and you must reply.
20:57 Not all of you, that is impossible,
or even one.
21:01 What would be your reply,
21:05 if one may ask respectfully,
21:09 what is your response
to that question?
21:13 What is beauty?
21:17 Is it in the mountains?
21:21 In the shadows?
21:25 In the dappled light
under these trees?
21:32 Is it a sheet of water
still in the moonlight?
21:37 Or the stars of a clear evening?
21:44 Or the beautiful face,
21:51 well-proportioned,
21:55 having that weight
and beauty inward?
22:02 Or does it lie in the museums,
22:07 the pictures, the statues?
22:12 There is a marvellous statue
in the Louvre in Paris.
22:18 The statue of
the Victory of Samothrace.
22:23 It is a marvellous statue.
22:28 And is that beauty?
22:33 So one should ask this question.
22:37 Not the beauty in a magazine.
22:42 Is that beauty?
22:45 A beautiful woman,
carefully made up,
22:52 etc., etc.
22:54 Is that beauty?
22:59 So one should ask this question
of ourselves.
23:05 Because man, woman,
are seeking this thing all the time.
23:12 that is why museums
become important
23:16 because in ourselves
we are so ugly.
23:21 Not sinful,
that is a wrong word to use.
23:27 We are so broken up,
23:31 fragmented,
23:34 we can never see
something whole,
23:39 holistic way of living.
23:43 And we think beauty
is out there,
23:49 in the pictures,
in a lovely poem of Keats,
23:59 or in marvellously
written literature.
24:07 So what is beauty?
24:16 Are you waiting
for the speaker to explain?
24:22 Or have you ever
asked of yourself?
24:30 Or are you seeking
for the experts to tell you?
24:39 Can we go into it together?
24:43 Not that the speaker
wants to convince you,
24:47 show you, tell you anything.
24:54 That is very important
to understand.
24:59 He is not authority.
25:02 He is not a public figure.
25:08 He hates all that
ugly reputation,
25:13 success,
25:16 becoming somebody.
25:18 Then you can threaten
that somebody.
25:22 You understand?
25:27 But it is not like that.
We are two human beings
25:32 talking over together our
whole complex problem of existence.
25:43 So what is beauty?
25:47 Is beauty love?
25:56 Is beauty pleasure?
26:00 Is beauty something
that gives you an élan,
26:07 a sensation?
26:09 You say, how marvellous,
how beautiful that picture is.
26:17 So what is beauty?
26:22 May we go into it together?
26:27 Together.
26:33 When you see those hills
behind there
26:39 and the blue sky
26:42 and the line of those mountains
against the sky,
26:49 and see some of the shadows
26:54 on the sunburned grass
26:59 and the shady trees,
when you look at it,
27:04 not verbalise it immediately
but when you look at it,
27:10 or see a great mountain
27:15 full of snow,
27:18 high peaks,
27:24 and a sky that has
never been polluted
27:31 – when you see this majesty
of a mountain,
27:36 what takes place?
27:43 Does the majesty
of that mountain,
27:46 the enormous solidity of it,
27:51 the greatness of it,
27:56 what happens at that second
when you see that mountain
28:00 and that hill
and those shadows
28:02 or this dappled light
under these trees?
28:09 For a second,
28:13 the greatness of the mountain
drives away all our pettiness,
28:20 all our worries and problems
and all the travail of life
28:26 – for that second.
28:35 Then you become silent and look.
28:39 Right?
28:43 Take a boy,
28:46 small boy or a girl,
28:50 they have been running about
all day long,
28:52 shouting, you know,
28:54 being a little bit naughty,
28:57 which is nice.
29:00 But parents
don't like them to be that way.
29:05 What happens
to their naughtiness
29:09 when you give them a lovely toy,
29:14 complicated toy?
29:18 Their whole energy
is concentrated in that toy.
29:25 They are not naughty.
29:28 Until they break that toy.
29:32 Then the whole begins again.
29:35 That is, the toy
29:38 – please listen to this,
together we are talking –
29:42 that toy absorbs the child.
29:50 The toy becomes all important.
29:54 He loves it, he holds it,
he kisses – you follow?
29:58 You have seen
teddy bears worn out.
30:08 And all that naughtiness
has gone
30:11 because the toy has absorbed
the naughtiness,
30:16 the toy becomes important.
30:19 Right?
30:21 You know this
if you are mothers and fathers.
30:26 And the toy is the television,
30:35 So, the mountain absorbs us
for the second.
30:41 that is our toy.
30:44 And we forget ourselves.
30:47 This is actuality.
30:50 If you see a marvellous statue,
30:54 not only Grecian statues,
30:59 but the ancient Egyptian ones.
31:04 Their extraordinary
sense of earth,
31:08 fullness, richness,
31:12 stability, dignity.
31:19 For a second, for a moment,
their dignity,
31:25 their immensity
drives our pettiness away.
31:31 So we are absorbed by the toys.
31:35 The grown-ups too.
31:37 It is maybe their business,
31:42 their chicanery in politics.
31:50 So all these things absorb us.
31:54 And if there is nothing
to absorb you,
32:01 then you get depressed,
32:04 try to escape from it,
32:07 do all kinds of things
to run away from what we are.
32:17 So, is not beauty
32:22 something that takes place
32:27 when you are not?
32:33 When you with all your problems,
32:36 with your anxieties, insecurity,
32:39 whether you are loved
or not loved,
32:44 when you with all the
psychological complexities are not,
32:51 then that state is beauty.
33:04 And this is one of the problems
of meditation.
33:08 To cultivate,
33:11 practise,
33:13 day after day,
33:16 to see that you are not.
33:26 And who is the entity
that is practising?
33:31 You understand?
It is the same old toy.
33:35 Only you call it meditation.
33:41 So where you or K is not,
33:45 there is beauty.
33:55 As we said,
beauty is not pleasure,
33:59 it is not sensation.
34:03 So we ought to talk over
34:08 pleasure,
34:13 because for us pleasure is an
extraordinarily important thing.
34:20 The pleasure of a sunset,
34:23 the pleasure of seeing somebody
whom you like
34:32 enjoying himself.
34:38 So we ought to talk over together
the whole concept of pleasure.
34:46 Because that is what we want,
if you are honest.
34:53 And that is our difficulty,
we are never
34:55 seriously honest to ourselves.
35:03 But we think to be
so terribly honest to oneself
35:07 may lead to further trouble,
35:09 not only for yourself
but your husband, wife, etc.
35:19 So to understand
the nature of fear,
35:22 guilt, relationship,
35:27 and all the movement
of our daily life
35:31 one has to look at it
very closely,
35:35 not control it, shape it,
35:37 and say this must go that way
or that way.
35:40 But to look at it first,
35:43 without fear,
35:47 without being depressed
35:52 or feeling that you must
do something about it.
35:59 So we are going to together
enquire what is pleasure.
36:07 To possess a beautiful car.
36:14 Or have lovely
12th century furniture
36:20 – to polish it, to look at it,
36:24 to evaluate.
36:28 There is a furniture in England,
in a particular room,
36:34 it is about 16th, 15th century.
36:40 And one has paid
a great deal of money for it.
36:44 And it gives you great pleasure
watching it.
36:48 Then you identify yourself
with that furniture.
36:52 Then you become the furniture,
36:57 because whatever you identify
yourself with, you are that.
37:03 It may be an image,
it may be a piece of furniture,
37:07 it may be a man, woman,
37:09 or it may be some idea,
37:13 some conclusion, some ideology.
37:17 And all the identification
with something greater
37:22 or something
which is convenient,
37:26 satisfying,
37:28 doesn't give you
too much discomfort,
37:32 that brings us
a great deal of pleasure.
37:38 And pleasure goes with fear.
37:42 I don't know
if you have watched it.
37:45 It is the other side
of the coin.
37:49 But we don't want to look
at the other side.
37:56 But we say to ourselves
37:58 pleasure is the most
important thing,
38:00 either through drugs,
38:03 which is now becoming
more and more in this country
38:09 – opium, cocaine, alcohol.
38:13 You know all that,
what is happening in the world,
38:16 especially in this country,
38:20 which breeds
certain irresponsibility,
38:26 gives you for the moment
certain élan, energy,
38:31 quietens the brain probably
and dulls the brain,
38:35 and ultimately
destroys human beings.
38:39 You have seen all this
on television.
38:42 If you haven't seen all this,
you know somebody,
38:47 and so on.
38:49 We start with pleasure,
and end up in ruination.
39:01 And pleasure of possessing
39:06 the woman or the man,
39:10 pleasure of power
39:14 over somebody.
39:16 It may be, if you have
domestic help, over that person,
39:22 or your wife or husband
or something or other
39:26 – we want power.
39:29 Right?
39:30 Let's be quite honest
about all this.
39:35 We admire power,
39:39 we extol power,
39:44 we idolise power.
39:48 Whether it is spiritual power
39:52 of the religious hierarchy,
39:56 or the power of a politician,
40:01 the power of money.
40:08 To the speaker
power is evil,
40:17 that is why followers
who want power
40:23 through knowledge,
through enlightenment,
40:26 you know all that rot
they talk about.
40:29 Not that there is not
40:32 but the rot, the stupidity,
nonsense they talk about.
40:37 That gives them power.
40:39 Which is,
if we may go on with it,
40:44 our education,
40:47 televisions,
40:51 our environment,
40:55 all that is making us mediocre.
41:00 We have read too much
of what other people say.
41:06 The word 'mediocre' means
41:12 going up the hill halfway
and never reaching the top.
41:18 Not success
41:20 – success is utter mediocrity.
41:28 Sorry to talk emphatically
about all these matters.
41:36 If you don't want to listen,
it is all right too.
41:41 You are not entertaining
the speaker,
41:44 or he is entertaining you.
41:46 These are all
terribly serious matters.
41:52 And we give power to others
41:56 because we ourselves lack power,
42:00 position, status,
42:02 therefore we hand it over
to somebody else.
42:07 And then we worship that,
adore it, or idolise it.
42:15 And we have lived that way
for millennia.
42:23 So,
42:26 power,
42:29 identification,
42:34 having security, money,
42:40 and feeling that money
will give you freedom,
42:43 which is not freedom at all.
42:48 In freedom you can choose
what you want or what you like,
42:52 is that freedom?
42:56 One does not know if you have
gone into this question of freedom,
43:00 what does freedom mean?
43:05 Not in heaven.
43:10 Do you remember that joke
– may I repeat a joke?
43:17 Two men are in heaven
43:21 with wings and halos, all that.
43:24 One says to the other,
43:28 'If I am dead,
why do I feel so awful?'
43:37 Have you got it?
43:50 So all forms of pleasure
is part of our life.
43:57 It has become more and more
44:03 more and more
44:06 – it is becoming noisy,
44:09 vulgar,
44:12 mediocre.
44:15 And so we go on
with our pleasures,
44:23 and in its wake comes fear.
44:28 So unless one understands
this activity of sensation,
44:36 fear and pleasure will go on.
44:40 What is sensation?
44:43 If one may go into it now.
44:47 The actual meaning of that word
is 'the activity of the senses'.
44:53 Right?
44:59 Either that activity
of the senses is partial,
45:04 which it always is,
45:07 or all the senses
are fully awakened.
45:12 You understand?
45:17 When it is partial,
it is limited.
45:22 Right?
45:23 You want more and more
and more and more.
45:33 And 'the more' means
45:37 that the past sensation
has not been sufficient.
45:42 You want some more of it,
45:45 go to different schools
of thought,
45:50 go from one sect
to another.
45:53 You have seen all this
in this country,
45:57 and elsewhere.
46:03 So, is there a holistic activity
for all the senses?
46:09 You understand my question?
46:14 I am asking you a question.
46:17 Our sensations are limited.
46:23 And you take drugs, etc.,
to have higher sensation.
46:29 It is still limited because
you are asking for more.
46:36 When you ask for 'the more'
there is always 'the little',
46:42 therefore it is partial.
46:46 Right? Simple.
46:49 So we are asking,
46:51 is there a holistic awareness
of all the senses,
46:59 therefore there is never asking
for 'the more'.
47:04 I wonder if you follow all this?
47:07 Are we together in this,
even partially?
47:17 And where there is this total,
47:23 fully aware of all the senses
47:25 – awareness of it,
not you are aware of it –
47:28 the awareness of the senses
in themselves,
47:32 then there is no centre
47:36 in which there is an awareness
of the wholeness.
47:40 You understand?
47:43 When you look at those hills,
47:48 can you look at it
not with only visual eyes,
47:52 optic nerves operating,
but with all the senses,
47:57 with all your energy,
with all your attention?
48:03 Then there is no 'me' at all.
48:09 Then when there is no me,
there is no asking for more,
48:13 or trying to become better.
48:20 Then we ought to also
talk over together,
48:25 what is sorrow.
48:28 You understand?
All these are related to each other.
48:33 Guilt,
48:35 the psychological wounds,
48:40 which most people have,
48:44 and what the consequences are
of those psychological wounds,
48:54 the vanity of one's own
cultivated intelligence,
49:01 which gets hurt,
49:07 and the images
that one has built about one's self
49:11 – that gets hurt, nothing else.
49:15 We went into all that.
49:17 And we talked about
49:21 We talked about fear, pleasure.
49:25 They are all interrelated,
49:28 they are not something
to be taken bit by bit
49:34 or separated and say,
this is my problem,
49:39 and stick to that.
49:42 If you say, I can solve that,
I don't mind the rest,
49:48 but the rest remains there.
49:55 So can one see
this whole movement,
49:58 not just one movement?
50:04 So we want to talk about
50:10 This is an immense subject.
50:18 It brings tears to one's eyes.
50:25 Not the words.
50:28 The word 'sorrow'
50:32 has been in the minds
of men and women
50:36 from the beginning of time
50:41 – this feeling of sorrow.
50:52 And sorrow has never ended.
51:03 If one travels,
51:05 especially in the Asiatic world
or in Africa,
51:10 you see immense poverty,
51:14 immense.
51:19 And you shed tears
or do some social reform,
51:23 or give them food
51:27 or give them clothes, etc.
51:30 But there is still sorrow there.
51:35 And there is the sorrow of someone
whom you have lost.
51:44 You have their picture
on the mantelpiece, or the piano,
51:48 or hung on the wall
51:51 and you remember it,
51:56 look at it, shed tears,
52:01 and all the memories
connected with that picture.
52:07 One sustains, nourishes,
continues loyally with that picture.
52:18 That picture is not the person.
52:23 That picture is not
the memories.
52:26 But we cling to those memories,
52:29 and that brings us
more and more sorrow.
52:37 And the sorrow of those people
who have very little in their life,
52:44 not only money,
52:48 few sticks of furniture,
52:52 but also
52:56 ignorance.
52:59 Not the ignorance
of something great,
53:04 but the ignorance
of their daily life,
53:13 of their having nothing
inside them
53:19 – not that the rich people
have either,
53:23 they have it in the bank account,
but nothing inside.
53:28 Look at all this.
53:30 And there is the immense sorrow
of mankind which is war.
53:42 Thousands, millions
have been killed,
53:49 and if you have seen it
in Europe
53:54 – thousands of crosses
all in a straight line.
54:04 How many women, men,
parents have cried,
54:12 not only in this country,
54:16 every community, every country,
every state.
54:25 Have we realised
that for the last historical times
54:32 there have been wars every year?
54:38 Tribal wars, national wars,
ideological wars, religious wars.
54:46 In the Middle Ages
they tortured people,
54:51 burnt them.
54:53 They were heretics.
54:58 You know all this
55:00 if you have listened,
if you have looked.
55:08 And from the beginning
of man or woman
55:12 the sorrow has continued
in different forms,
55:20 poverty of sorrow,
poverty of ignorance,
55:24 poverty of not being able
to fulfil your desires,
55:30 poverty of achievement
55:34 – there is more to be achieved.
55:40 And all this has brought
immense sorrow,
55:44 not only personal sorrow,
55:52 but also the sorrow
of humanity.
55:58 In Cambodia,
what is happening there.
56:01 What is happening in Russia,
56:06 in the totalitarian states.
56:10 We read about it,
we never shed a tear!
56:14 We are indifferent to all this
56:17 because we are so consumed
by our own sorrow,
56:19 our own loneliness,
our own inadequacy.
56:28 So we are going to
ask ourselves
56:32 is there an end to sorrow?
56:40 Ending,
not what happens after sorrow,
56:45 after the ending.
56:50 Is there an end
to our personal sorrow,
56:55 with all the implications of it?
57:00 Ugly face
– I won't call them ugly,
57:03 it is a face you don't like.
57:08 You know the whole business
of all this.
57:20 And one asks,
57:22 if one is at all serious,
57:26 committed to find out,
57:31 is there an end to sorrow?
57:41 And if there is an end,
what is there?
57:48 Because we always want a reward.
57:54 Something – if I end this,
I must have that.
58:01 We never end anything by itself,
58:06 for itself – per se.
58:11 So can this sorrow end?
58:16 Which means,
58:24 can there be sorrow
with love?
58:34 Let's go into it.
58:39 I love my son
58:44 – if I have a son and daughter,
I love them.
58:57 And they become
every kind of human being
59:02 – drugs,
you know the whole process of it.
59:05 And I cry.
59:13 And I call that sorrow.
59:19 What is the relationship
of sorrow to love?
59:25 You understand my question?
59:27 I am asking you,
please find out.
59:33 We know what sorrow is:
59:36 great pain, grief, loneliness,
59:43 sense of isolation.
59:47 My sorrow is entirely different
from yours.
59:54 In the very feeling of it
I have become isolated.
1:00:02 We know, not only verbally
1:00:07 but in depth, in the feeling,
1:00:10 inward feeling
in our very being,
1:00:13 we know what the meaning
of that word is.
1:00:20 And what is the relationship
of sorrow to love?
1:00:33 Then we have to ask
what is love.
1:00:37 You are asking this question,
not the speaker.
1:00:41 What is love?
1:00:47 When one asks that question,
1:00:52 does one come to it positively,
1:00:56 in the sense, 'love is this',
1:01:02 give it certain definition,
1:01:06 verbal definition,
or inward definition,
1:01:10 and stick to it?
1:01:14 Love of God, love of books,
love of trees,
1:01:18 love of a dozen things.
1:01:22 So what is love?
1:01:28 Have you ever asked
this question?
1:01:31 If you have,
1:01:33 is it sensation?
1:01:37 Sexual,
reading a lovely poem,
1:01:42 looking at these
marvellous old trees.
1:01:48 Is love pleasure?
1:01:52 Please, one must be
terribly honest to ourselves,
1:01:56 otherwise
there is no fun in this.
1:02:02 Humour is necessary,
1:02:07 to be able to laugh,
1:02:13 to find a good joke,
1:02:21 to be able to laugh together,
1:02:24 not when you are by yourself,
but together.
1:02:33 And we are asking ourselves
what is love.
1:02:39 Is love desire?
1:02:46 Is love thought?
1:02:52 Is love something
that you hold, possess?
1:02:58 Is love that which you worship?
1:03:06 You understand?
1:03:09 the statue, the image,
the symbol.
1:03:14 Is that love?
1:03:17 The symbol, the statue, the picture,
is put together by thought.
1:03:24 Your prayers you put together
by thought.
1:03:28 Is that love?
1:03:30 Please go into it for yourself.
1:03:38 And when one realises
all that is not love
1:03:45 – your pleasures, sensation,
1:03:48 having a good cigar,
1:03:51 good meal,
1:03:55 well-clothed,
1:03:58 with good taste.
1:04:04 So is pleasure, desire
1:04:10 – of course fear is not,
obviously, love.
1:04:18 Have you ever looked at hate?
1:04:23 If you hate, you dispel fear.
1:04:28 Yes.
1:04:30 If you really hate somebody
there is no fear.
1:04:36 Right?
I hope you don't...
1:04:44 So, can we through negation
of what is not love,
1:04:50 negate completely in oneself,
1:04:56 totally put aside entirely
1:05:01 all that which is not love?
1:05:09 Then that perfume is there.
1:05:17 And that perfume can never go
once you have put aside completely
1:05:23 those things which are not love.
1:05:28 Then love,
which goes with compassion,
1:05:33 has its own intelligence.
1:05:37 It is not the intelligence
of thought,
1:05:42 not the intelligence
of the scientific mind, brain.
1:05:50 When one has that love,
that compassion,
1:05:55 there is no grief,
no pain, no sorrow.
1:06:04 But to come to that
1:06:09 – you can't come to it, sorry –
1:06:20 it is there when you negate
everything that it is not.
1:06:28 Not the beauty of an architect,
which has put stones together.
1:06:36 If you have seen
those cathedrals,
1:06:40 the temples and the mosques,
1:06:44 they are all put together
by thought and pleasure,
1:06:47 or devotion, worship.
1:06:52 Is all that love?
1:06:56 If there is love
then you will never kill another.
1:07:01 Never!
1:07:07 You will never kill
another animal for your food.
1:07:11 Of course, please,
1:07:13 go on eating meat
if you want to,
1:07:15 I am not telling you.
1:07:23 So it is an immense thing
to come upon it.
1:07:29 Nobody can give it to another.
1:07:38 Nothing can give it to you.
1:07:43 But if you, in your being
you put aside all that which is not,
1:07:51 all that which thought
has put together,
1:07:55 the rituals,
all the things that go on,
1:08:00 the special dresses.
1:08:05 When you with all your problems
are totally empty,
1:08:09 then the other thing is,
1:08:11 which is the most
positive thing,
1:08:14 most practical thing.
1:08:18 The most impractical thing in life
is to build armaments,
1:08:25 to kill people.
1:08:28 Isn't it?
1:08:30 that is what you are spending
your tax money on.
1:08:33 I am not a politician
so don't listen to all this.
1:08:39 But see what we are all doing.
1:08:47 And what we are doing is the society
which we have created.
1:08:54 That society
is not different from us.
1:09:00 We may reform the society,
lots of us are doing it,
1:09:07 the socialists, the capitalists,
1:09:10 especially the Communists
tried to organise outside.
1:09:22 So love has nothing to do
with any organisation
1:09:29 or with any person.
1:09:34 Like the cool breeze
from the ocean, this breeze,
1:09:40 you can shut it out
or live with it.
1:09:45 When you live with it,
1:09:50 it is a totally
different dimension.
1:09:54 There is no path to it,
1:09:56 there is no path to truth,
1:10:01 either yours or mine.
1:10:04 No path whatsoever
1:10:07 – Christian, Hindu, sectarian,
1:10:11 gosh.
1:10:13 So one has to live it.
1:10:18 You can only come to it
1:10:21 when you have understood
the whole psychological nature
1:10:25 and structure of yourself.
1:10:35 We ought to talk over sometime,
tomorrow perhaps
1:10:40 – it is now twenty to one.
1:10:44 Yes, it is twenty to one –
1:10:46 do you want to talk over
together death
1:10:49 or wait till tomorrow?
1:10:52 This is not an invitation
for you to come tomorrow.
1:10:58 Whether you come
or don't come
1:11:00 is totally indifferent
to the speaker.
1:11:09 That is a very,
very complex problem, death.
1:11:16 Death is not a sensation.
1:11:22 Do you want the speaker, together,
to go into all this now?
1:11:27 Audience: Yes.
1:11:30 K: Are you quite sure?
A: Yes.
1:11:33 K: No, please,
you are asking this,
1:11:41 because this is a very,
very serious matter.
1:11:45 All that we have talked about
is very, very serious.
1:11:49 We have time to go into it.
1:11:52 You understand?
1:11:54 We went through all this
in detail,
1:11:57 we can go into these things
1:12:02 during six talks, etc.,
any number of talks,
1:12:10 any number of conversations.
1:12:13 But to talk about death,
1:12:16 it is not a morbid subject,
1:12:19 It is not something
to be avoided,
1:12:24 something at the end
of one's life.
1:12:33 I think we had better
wait till tomorrow
1:12:36 – just a minute, sir, just listen
to what the speaker has to say.
1:12:42 If you have lived the thing
that we have been talking about,
1:12:54 you must come to all this
delicately, gently, quietly,
1:12:59 not out of curiosity.
1:13:03 Come to it hesitantly,
1:13:08 delicately, in a sense
with great dignity,
1:13:14 with inward respect.
1:13:22 And like birth,
it is a tremendous thing.
1:13:30 And to talk about death
also implies creation,
1:13:37 not invention.
1:13:40 Scientists are inventing,
1:13:47 because invention
is born from knowledge.
1:13:51 Creation is continuous.
1:13:55 It has no beginning and no end,
it is not born out of knowledge.
1:14:01 And death may be
the meaning of creation.
1:14:06 Not having next life
a better opportunity,
1:14:09 better house,
better refrigerator.
1:14:15 It may be a sense of
tremendous creation,
1:14:22 endlessly,
without beginning and end.
1:14:25 And to talk about it
1:14:29 after an hour
and twenty minutes,
1:14:33 an hour and ten minutes
or five minutes, doesn't matter,
1:14:37 it requires your attention, care,
1:14:42 a sense of
delicate approach to it.
1:14:49 So may we
1:14:51 – most humbly I am asking you,
respectfully –
1:14:53 can we talk about it
tomorrow morning,
1:15:01 when we will
probably have more energy?
1:15:23 May we get up?