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RV78DS6 - Intelligence is total security
Rishi Valley, India - 18 December 1978
Discussion with Students 6



0:01 This is J. Krishnamurti’s sixth discussion with students at Rishi Valley, in 1978. Krishnamurti (K): I can't see you over there, come over here. Those who are sitting on the ground, I can't see Come over here. Some of you... That's right sir, come.. Lean against it. Come over here. Look, plenty of room. I can't see you sir, come over here. I can see you, but the ones that are sitting... Look.
1:18 K: Now what shall we talk about?
1:24 Student(S): What is love, sir? What is love?
1:30 K: What do you think it is? First of all, how will you find out?
1:52 Girl Student (GS): You must love, sir, to know what love is.
1:57 K; Yes, but what do you mean by love?
2:04 GS: This is something that can’t be defined.
2:08 K: What?
2:09 GS: Can you define it?
2:10 K: Why not? Let’s find out. Before you ask…
2:19 S: A relationship where you expect no returns.
2:27 K: Now, before we ask that question: what love is, what are you interested in, all of you? What is your main interest? What is it you want to do in life? How old are you, most of you?
2:56 GS: Seventeen, eighteen.
2:58 K: Seventeen, eighteen, nineteen.
3:00 G. Narayan (GN): Sixteen and seventeen.
3:03 K: Sixteen and seventeen. What are you interested in? And what are you going to do? As for girls they will get married inevitably and settle down, is that it? What is it that really, deeply interests you? And then perhaps, if we can find that out we can then proceed to investigate what love is. Right?
3:50 S: Sir, I think most people are interested in security.
3:57 K: In?
3:58 S: Security. In the search for it through physical means—job, money.
4:02 K: So, you want security. What do you mean by that—money?
4:07 S: Yes, physical. Material security.
4:12 K: Material security. And there are for one job three thousand people or ten thousand people - right? - specially in this country where there is over-population. You know all the business. So, how will you find that security?
4:30 S: The point is, you don’t. Everybody keeps trying for it.
4:39 K: What are you going to do to find it? Most people don’t have security. Right? None of those villagers have security. But security is in terms of job, generally given to those who have some kind of degree, right?, higher echelon. Are you looking for that security? Are you?
5:16 S: Yes.
5:19 K: How will you get it? Will your father, uncle, grandfather, grandmother, pull wires? That generally happens in India. Right? You want a job, your father says, goes to somebody and says, please, begs him or bribes him or flatters him, or something or other to get a job. Is that what’s going to happen to you? Have you thought this out at all?
6:00 S: Yes.
6:01 K: So what are you going to do? Join the Communist party?
6:06 S: No.
6:07 K: Why not?
6:08 S: Sir, what I’d look for in life is, at least, whatever I do, I’d like to live happily. I mean, in the, in the sense, without conflict. The communists are not without conflict.
6:23 K: So what will you do, sir? What will you do to have a life in which there is no conflict? Hm? That’s what you are saying, in which you will have security, in which you’ll have a happy life. Can all this be taken for granted? You understand what I’m saying?
6:51 S: Yes.
6:52 K: You can’t, can you? You can’t take it for granted: To have security, to live a life without conflict, to have a life that’s happy, productive, creative. How will you get it? What will you do to have this?
7:20 S: By doing what you really want, what you are interested in.
7:27 K: What are you interested in? [Laughs]
7:31 S: Sir, is that possible?
7:34 K: He wants that!
7:35 S: I say it’s not possible. I’ll take life as it comes.
7:41 K: ‘It’s not possible’. I’m not so sure it’s not possible. I’m pretty sure it’s possible. But if it is possible, what will you do for it? How will you work for it? What your actions will be? You follow what I mean? If it is not possible then we can look at the other. You follow what I mean?
8:09 S: Not to have any ties. To do whatever you want, whenever you want.
8:14 K: Oh, can you?
8:16 S: Maybe, sir.
8:17 K: Can you?
8:18 S: Not now.
8:19 K: I mean even when you grow up, can you do what you want, at any time you want?
8:24 S: Maybe, sir, I don’t know.
8:25 K: Is that possible?
8:27 S: I think so.
8:30 K: [Laughs] That is, you may want to be a—have a great deal of money, hm?, or you may want to have a very successful life—big man. And you may not have the capacity.
8:48 GS: I think life is what it is now, not in the future or in the past. It is what’s happening right now.
9:01 K: What is happening right now?
9:02 GS: I am sitting and listening to what you are saying.
9:04 K: Yes, you can listen to what I am saying, but will that bring about a happy life, a creative life, a life that’s worthwhile, not wasted? You understand? Most lives are wasted, right?
9:23 S: After the age of twenty-five, I think none of us are creative any longer. We are very dull.
9:29 K: Yes, sir. So your most lives are wasted. Right? Right, sir? Do you want to waste your life?
9:36 GS: No, sir.
9:38 K: Ah, you may not want it now, but circumstances, society, your parents, you follow?, everything will prevent you. You can’t do what you want to do in life. I may want to be the queen of England, I can’t. I may want to be the prime minister—which I don’t. [Laughs] I may want to be a businessman—I don’t. You follow? I can’t because I haven’t got the capacity. So, have you the capacity—please listen—have you the capacity or the energy or the drive to say, look, this is what I want to do. Hm? And I don’t care if it brings me happiness, money, but this is what I want to do.
10:29 GS: Sir, you need a great deal of courage for that, to say that.
10:44 K: Not courage. Would you call that courage?
10:50 GS: Understanding?
10:51 K: No, just, don’t use words, one word after the other, we can get lost in words. Do you need courage for this? Now, just a minute. Fear and its opposite is courage. Right? This is a little bit difficult. Go into it, I’ll go into it, you’ll see it. If courage is born of fear, is it courage?
11:27 GS: No.
11:29 K: No. You understand? So, to say to yourself, look, I don’t know what I want to do, but I am going to find out. Not that I can do anything, that’s impossible. I want to find out. How will you find out, each one of you?
11:48 S: Sir, I know what I don’t want to do.
11:52 K: What is that?
11:54 S: That is, I reject a lot of things that are placed before me, I reject each value, saying this is not for me. I am not sure what’s ahead, really.
12:01 K: What are they? Mention, say them, tell me what you don’t want.
12:05 S: Like, I don’t want a good job, I don’t want the money…
12:08 K: Right, wait, wait. You don’t want a job. Why not?
12:13 S: Because I feel by getting money it’s not helping me in any way.
12:17 K: Job implies getting up every morning, going to the office at 9 O clock, come back at 5 for the rest of your life.
12:28 S: And you’ve got a lot of social values too.
12:33 K: Wait, sir, go into it slowly, have a little patience. If you want a job and you are working for a job, that’s what is implies—everyday of your life for the next fifty years. You understand? And seeing that, you say I don’t want to do that. Right? Right? Then what is it you don’t want to do?
13:04 S: Could you repeat the question?
13:09 K: You said certain things I don’t want to do, right? What are the other things? You don’t want a job.
13:16 S: Sir, there are a lot of values in society which I think they are not relevant to me, like owning a car, owning a refrigerator, whatever it is. I mean I am not going to gain any happiness that way.
13:31 K: No. So what will you do? I may not want to be the prime minister, or a governor or some silly thing like that, but I have to do something in life. Right? I have to act, I have to live, I have to have a shelter, clothes. What shall I do? Dance?
14:03 S: You work. You work with the common man, with the labourers.
14:07 K: Will you do that?
14:08 S: Yes, why not?
14:10 K: Ah, not why not. [Laughs] Will you say I don’t want to go to an office from morning till night for the rest of my life, but I would like to do something which I want to do. What is it you want to do?
14:29 S: The fact is that there is a lot of disparity existing in society…
14:35 K: Yes, sir, those are facts.
14:38 S: These facts hit me and I would like to help them.
14:42 K: Help who?
14:43 S: I see them in their dejected state—the poor of India.
14:46 K: That is, you want to become a social worker.
14:50 S: I am not implying that, but I am saying that I see them in their dejected state but…
14:56 K: It means that, sir. To help these poor people you have to either live with them, help them and so on, so on, so on, or you join an organization and they send you to help various villages. Is that what you want to do?
15:17 S: Yes.
15:19 K: Do it. And will that bring you happiness?
15:22 S: I wouldn’t know.
15:26 K: That’s just it. And will that give you tremendous satisfaction? Say that’s really what I want to do for the rest of my life, and that’s good enough.
15:44 S: Sir, I know that a degree, if I have a degree it gives me a security in the sense that with that degree I could always earn enough money so that I can live. And after that I go away and do something else which I actually want to do.
16:06 K: Will you have time to do that? Or you are all dreaming. I may want to earn a sufficient sum of money and then do what I want to do. But to earn sufficient amount of money you have to work pretty hard.
16:32 S: No, I am not saying that. I’m not going to save up money. What I’m saying is, I have a degree, yes, but I might not use the degree. I might work at something else. But I know the degree is something I can fall back on.
16:44 K: So, all right. Then, having the degree, what will you do? You know, face something very clearly. The world is very difficult. Right? Right? This is a cruel world. Right? And it’s rather mad. Right? And you have to face that. That’s a reality. And you may be sane, healthy. How will you meet this madness?
17:35 GS: Sir, I think the most important thing is to go through this whole process of living, that is, facing this mad world without losing your sensitivity and by not getting hurt.
17:54 K: Will you do that?
17:55 GS: I think I’ll have to do it as it comes, sir.
17:59 K: So are you prepared to face the world as it is, and not yield to the things that the world is caught up in? You understand? Will you do that?
18:15 GS: Yes, sir.
18:17 K: Or are you going to be swallowed up?
18:21 GS: I think I’ll do it, sir, because otherwise you…
18:27 K: Ah, not otherwise. [Laughs] Just think it out carefully. You may get married, your husband will have a job, you’ll have children, and you are caught in the trap. Right? And if you don’t marry it’s also a trap. [Laughs] Right? So you have to go into this question very, very carefully. You can’t just say I want to do what I want to, and all the rest of it. You see that’s why I am saying while you are very young as now, for God’s sake realise and understand and work at it, not to waste your life. You understand? The wasting of life is, to be caught in his trap—in the worldly trap, in the world, what’s happening in the world. That means you have to study the world, you have to know exactly what the world is: brutal, violent, every kind of insanity that’s going on. Did you read the other day in ‘Newsweek’ and ‘Time’ magazine, there was a religious leader called Mr. Jones—you’ve read it?
20:10 S: Yes. Jim Jones.
20:12 K: Just imagine it! You follow? And there are Hindu leaders—gurus, they are exactly doing the same. They don’t murder, but they murder the brain of people! You understand, sir? So you must know what the world is, and are you prepared to meet that? That means you have to be extraordinarily inwardly very strong. Hm?
20:51 S: Sir, could you go into security?
21:02 K: To us security means having money, job, house—generally. That’s what it means generally, doesn’t it? My son is secure. [Laughs] He’s got a very good job, and there is a promise of better, more money, more money. He is married. His wife is kind, nice, and all the rest of it. And he is settled down. Right? That’s what is called, generally, security. Do you agree to that?
21:41 GS: Yes. We end up as life, sir.
21:48 K: That is generally what is called security. And the parents only want that. Right, sir? Right?
22:02 S: Why do they want it?
22:09 K: Because they feel responsible only in the context of that. You understand? They think they have brought you up. You are born, they bring you up, send you to school, college, university, and say, please, settle down. [Laughs]
22:31 S: And their responsibility is over.
22:34 K: Is over. They come and visit you, and you visit them and—’Hello daddy, hello mummy, how are you’, but they wash their hands off you. Right? It’s a cruel world, you understand? For God’s sake, face it. Don’t be depressed by it because that won’t answer the question. Therefore, to face it you must be intelligent.
23:08 S: There are times when you can’t help yielding to it, in the sense, too much pressure. But I do it, because right now I’ve got no alternative, sir.
23:19 K: Don’t do anything under pressure. Go, starve. I’ve done this. I am saying things which—they are not words to me, you understand?
23:40 GS: Even if you hurt others.
23:43 K: How can you hurt others? What do you mean hurt others?
23:45 GS: Okay.
23:46 K: Not okay. What do you mean okay?
23:49 GS: Suppose my father wants me to do something.
23:52 K: Wants you to marry.
23:54 GS: Okay. That’s it. That’s the situation. I’ll just starve.
23:58 K: Would you mind stopping, saying okay? [Laughs] All right. Proceed.
24:03 GS: If he wants me to marry and I don’t want it and I starve, I will be hurting him.
24:14 K: What?
24:15 GS: No, no, I’ll be hurting myself—I understand.
24:17 K: Will you stand up against your father, mother, and against your grandmother, and say, wait, I may marry but I want to finish my studies, don’t push me. But they want to push you.
24:36 S: Sir, I think what she is trying to imply is, when she marries they will feel secure in the end. But if she does not marry they will feel insecure because they feel their duty is not being complete.
24:48 K: That’s it. So you are caught in it both ways, coming and going. Now, he asked me what is security. Most people, throughout the world, consider security to mean: to have a job, a house, a wife, and settle down, right? Right, sir? So every parent throughout the world wants this. Is that possible? They may want it—I may not have the capacity to pass exams. Hm, face it. I may not be capable of living with another. So you are pushing me into a position where I may not have the capacity for this.
25:59 S: I guess this is something I have to find out for myself.
26:05 K: No, no, just listen. So what does security mean? We all want security, right?
26:16 GS: Sir, it means stagnation.
26:23 K: What we generally call security is stagnation.
26:27 S: It’s conflict also. It brings about total conflict in the person.
26:33 K: Yes, yes. All that it brings about. The word stagnation is good, in which is implied living a life that’s constant conflict, right?, constant competition with somebody, somebody fighting, fighting, fighting. Right? Is that security?
26:58 S: You still aren’t secure.
27:02 K: Therefore…
27:03 GS: It’s false.
27:05 K: It’s false. So what is right security? Is there such a thing as complete security? You understand my question? Physically, there’s going to be more and more insecurity—overpopulation, everybody fighting for a better job, which means only those people who have the capacity to fight, fight, fight are going to win. So you say perhaps there may be a different kind of security. Not merely physical, but perhaps if I understand there is a different kind of security then physical security will be put in its right place. You understand? So is there another form of security?
28:20 S: Sir, isn’t the drive for security based on fear?
28:25 K: No, leave fear for the moment—of course. Is there another form of security?
28:31 GS: Sir, when you are a complete person without any conflict, without any fear…
28:41 K: Are you?
28:43 GS: No, no.
28:45 K: Therefore why do you talk about it? Don’t ever talk about something which is not actual to you. Then you are entering into a world of supposition, theories and get lost. Say what you have found, what your life is, don’t imagine somebody else’s. You understand what I am saying? All right, sir, are you following? Is there another form of security? I say there is if you are intelligent. Intelligence is total security. I am going to show it to you. You know what the word means?
29:44 S: Reading between the lines.
29:48 K: Yes. Not only that. Go on, work at it a little more, use your brain. Work at it, find out. What does intelligence mean? Not only read between the lines. [Laughs] What does reading between the lines mean?
30:12 S: You are able to see everything as a whole.
30:15 K: No. I asked first of all, old boy, just listen. He said reading between the lines.
30:21 S: You used that last time.
30:23 K: I used that—aha. I see. I thought… [Laughter] I thought I recognised the repetition. It’s not repetition because a good dictionary points that out. Not only read between the lines, but something more. What does reading between the lines mean? I write to you a letter—very polite, very friendly but if you read between the lines you’ll see I may not be friendly. [Laughs] I may politely say all this just to cover up my timidity, my hesitancy, my anger. So when you read between the lines, it implies that you must be extraordinarily sensitive to go behind the line, behind the word, right? You get it? You get this, sir?
31:33 S: Sometimes you might…
31:36 K: Listen, no, not sometimes. Have you understood what I said?
31:40 S: I understand.
31:41 K: That’s good enough. Just hold. It means that a mind that is intelligent is a mind that’s sensitive, has a grasp of the world situation, you understand?, a global situation, understands human relationship, whether it’s possible to live with another without quarrel, without self-centredness. You understand? And intelligence also means to find out if there is something beyond theories, beyond beliefs, beyond rituals, all that. That is, an intelligent mind implies a religious mind—not the phoney religious, I am not talking all that nonsense, that circus that goes on. And to have good, true relationship with human beings, and a global feeling of what the world is going through. All that implies intelligence. And in that intelligence there is complete security, not in the other. If you have that intelligence then you can operate anywhere you like.
33:31 GS: It is very clear.
33:36 K: Will you do it? Aha, lady?
33:40 GS: I have been thinking what you are saying, understanding it, and it is clear.
33:45 K: It may be clear but will you do it? [Laughs] I don’t doubt you, but when you say I will, you mean you will for the rest of your life. Right? That means that you understand this tremendous thing which is life.
34:10 S: Can intelligence be developed?
34:21 K: No. Look, listen to it carefully. Now, you look at the world as it is, right? You know what the world is: divided, Hindu-Muslim, Jew-Arab, Communist and Socialist, Liberal and Conservative, Social, Democratic, wars. Do you know they are spending, the world is spending on armaments four hundred thousand million dollars a year! Do you know what that means? That’s madness. You understand this? That’s madness. When each nation says I must be prepared to fight another nation—which is also preparing to fight me, it’s madness! So religiously they are divided, right?: Catholic, Protestants, Hindu, Muslim. Economically they are divided. Nationally they are divided, racially they are divided. Right? So, this division is bringing about in the world utter chaos. You know all this? Do you? Uh?
36:04 S: Yes.
36:05 K: So when you see the division you say I won’t be divided, I won’t accept that. I am neither a Hindu nor a Muslim. You understand? Not just—I am not! Are you like that?: I don’t belong to this tradition or that tradition. That is part of intelligence. That intelligence says I cannot do certain things. I won’t belong to any nation. Though I, personally, carry an Indian passport I am not an Indian, or European or… I am a human being, why should I be Indian? You understand what I am saying? Now, can you see the truth of that and say no, I am going to stick to that. That is a fact. I won’t say well, it is true but it is convenient to be a Hindu because I’ll have a better job. You understand? Hm.
37:34 S: So this form of intelligence I think can only be developed by circumstance.
37:44 K: No.
37:45 S: I mean if you are exposed to various influences you move away, you try and analyse them for yourself.
37:55 GS: When you are a child, you are exposed to certain influences.
38:00 K: No, you are influenced by the Hindu, which is happening now, lady. You are under pressure by the Muslim. So it is all there! It doesn’t depend on circumstances.
38:20 GS: Sir, everyone has intelligence.
38:24 K: Have they?
38:26 GS: Yes, but many people allow it to be submerged, sir.
38:32 S: Given the right circumstance everyone does have a basic intelligence.
38:38 K: Is that so?
38:39 S: It is so, sir.
38:41 K: What makes you say so?
38:42 S: If you expose a person to a lot of things in life that he has not been exposed to previously, he will at least analyse those things, those factors…
38:50 K: Now, you are being exposed to this intelligence, now, right? I have exposed to you this intelligence which is total security. Have you seen that? And therefore you are intelligent? Or you have just taken the words.
39:15 S: I have seen the words, sir.
39:19 K: So you are intelligent that way.
39:22 S: Sir, how do we know how far you’ve taken it as a theory, and how far you take it as an actuality?
39:36 K: You will do it in your life. Test it. My father tells me you must go to the temple, if he does. I say, I am sorry, I won’t. Not ‘I am sorry, I can’t go today, but some other time’ but I am not going! I won’t carry the flag.
40:06 GS: It has happened. My mother told me to go to the temple and I said I am going today, and she cried.
40:13 K: I know. Poor lady. And you say what? And you say, ‘Poor mummy, it’s all right, I’ll come with you.’
40:27 GS: I still didn’t go.
40:29 S: For her sake you go, sir. For your parent’s sake you go to the temple.
40:35 S: Sir, does it keep you from being intelligent—I mean all this tradition and culture keep you from being intelligent?
40:49 K: Yes, sir. Tradition and culture prevent you from being intelligent. Tradition says accept authority, right?, accept the authority of the priest, authority of the guru. The acceptance of authority is the lack of intelligence.
41:15 S: Sir, could you go into how intelligence brings about security?
41:30 K: I explained it, sir. When there is intelligence, that intelligence operates and so there is no fear of insecurity. [Pause] Now, you wanted to talk about love, hm? Do you have love, do you love?
42:13 S: Depends on what you call love.
42:21 K: Do you love your parents? Do you love your sister? Do you love the rocks, the dog, the trees, the heavens and the blue sky? Do you? Do you?
42:58 GS: I do. I do.
43:02 K: What?
43:03 GS: When you talked about the heavens and the sky and the rocks…
43:09 K: Don’t you love to look at the blue sky?
43:12 GS: I do.
43:14 K: The evening stars? Don’t you love to see a cloud? Hm? Right? Do you love so that you won’t harm them?
43:30 GS: I do harm them but…
43:32 K: Uh, just listen quietly. [Laughs] You are always playing this game. Do you love? If you love you won’t hurt, will you? You’ll take care, you’ll look after, you are concerned. Do you? He wanted to know what love is—somebody wanted to know.
43:58 S: I think love means absolute care.
44:10 K: Yes, sir. Not when you are just baby, not just when you are very young, care throughout life. You people…hm? Love means no jealousy, right?, no fear.
44:43 S: I think that this can exist only when there is no fear?
44:51 K: Absolutely.
44:52 S: Sir, just a minute, sir. I may still love the cloud, but I may have my own fears.
45:14 K: Ah, but cloud of course you have no fear. A rock, it won’t fall on you, so you have no fear. A tree, you love it because it doesn’t harm you. But do you love your father, your mother, or the man next door? He might hurt you. Or you are frightened of him or, say, you are a rival to him because you have a better job. You understand? If you compare yourself and try to beat him, is that love? In game or in jobs or in other ways? So love can only exist when there is no fear, when there is no jealousy, when there is no violence, when there is no antagonism, vanity. Right? To have that thing will you deny all this, put away all this? Will you?
46:33 S: To lead a life without conflict, you have to.
46:50 K: Yes, sir. To have a relationship with human beings in which there is no conflict, no fear, no antagonism.
47:01 S: Sir, it is but natural for every human being to register pain, hurt and pleasure, whatever it is. So how do you deny it?
47:18 K: Why am I hurt when you call me a fool?
47:22 GS: You are afraid of being laughed at.
47:32 K: Yes. You laugh at me, and I am hurt. Why am I hurt, and what is it that’s hurt?
47:42 S: Because I think I am not a fool.
47:46 K: So. Yes, which means what?
47:50 S: I have an image. My image doesn’t want to be hurt.
47:55 GS: The image is the one that’s hurt, it isn’t himself that’s hurt.
47:57 K: You haven’t listened to my question: [Laughs] You laugh at me, or you all me a fool, I am hurt. What is it that is hurt?
48:12 S: My image.
48:14 K: [Laughs] You are repeating. Don’t repeat anything that you haven’t for yourself discovered.
48:18 GS: Sir, it’s because you think you aren’t a fool and that you think you are quite a clever person.
48:29 K: So which means what? I have an image about myself, right?, a picture about myself. And so when he calls me a fool or laughs at me, that image is hurt. Right? So not to be hurt means to have no image about yourself. Right? Have you an image about yourself? If you have, you are going to be hurt. So not to be hurt is to have no image about yourself. That is, if I am self-centred—do you know what that word means: self-centred? And you are self-centred. You are wife or husband, sister whatever it is. Then each person is concerned about himself. Hm? And this concern keep us divided. The husband goes off to the office, concerned—better job, better prospect, you follow?, and the wife is also concerned about herself, so there is—they never are related. I am sorry you are so young [laughs] because you are going to have a terribly hard life if you are not intelligent.
50:20 S: The whole of life is relationship, isn’t it?
50:30 K: Yes, sir. The whole of life means relationship with humanity, with each other. If I have an image of myself that I am a big man, that I have travelled all over the world, people have written about me, I have written books, and people have worshipped me, people have said you are a great man and blah, blah, blah [Laughs]. And therefore I have an image about myself. And you come along and say, don’t be a damn fool, I get hurt. Right? If I have no image, I can’t get hurt.
51:15 GS: It’s very simple.
51:21 K: Then do it.
51:27 S: It seems very simple but I don’t know what stops us.
51:33 K: Do it! Test it out and do it.
51:36 S: What creates the image?
51:38 K: What creates the image?
51:40 GS: The search for security.
51:42 K: That’s a form of security. Creating an image and living in that image: I am a Catholic, I believe in Jesus, I am this, I am that, and also, you follow?, my fathers, my great-grandfathers, the propaganda of the church, all that, society, everything has created this image. And I like the image.
52:07 S: So it is circumstance and thought.
52:13 K: Yes, circumstances, society, pressure, education. When there is comparison between A and B in the school, that’s creating an image. [Pause] You see, instead of being happy when you are young as you are all, as you are all young, instead of being happy, all these problems are weighing down on you. You understand? Which is wrong. Education is to help you while you are young, to face this, put away all these problems. Understand them and put away so that your mind is young, not burdened. You understand what I’m saying? Do it! [Laughs] [Pause]
53:27 S: In that case is it necessary to do academics?
53:28 K: Which implies you have a good job. You must have a good mind, it might help you.
54:09 S: Or it may not?
54:11 K: It all depends on you. I never passed a single examination. [Laughs] I don’t read serious books at all: Philosophy, religious books, Bhagavad Gita or any of those books. They bore me. But if I am dreadfully honest to myself everything comes right.
54:54 GS: Pardon?
54:55 K: If I am very honest, truthful to myself, then things come right.
55:01 GS: Sir, can you explain that?
55:12 K: I was offered, when I was quite young, tremendous lot of money, to go into the movies. [Laughs] Tremendous lot. They pursued me for three years, understand?, at Hollywood. And I said sorry, I am not interested, I don’t want money. Right? [Laughs] I was the head of a very big organisation, with castles and thousands of acres. I said this is wrong. I gave it up. So. You understand? I am not your example. You have to find out for yourself what is right action, which is to understand the world, human relationship and really a religious life.
56:31 S: Could you say what you actually mean by a religious life?
56:42 K: To love, to have compassion, to understand, to have no violence. You have heard all this, will you do it, and not let your parents, society pressure you to do something?
57:11 GS: Sir, then your mind must be very clear as to what you want to do.
57:32 K: That’s just it. No, first is to have a clear mind, which means a mind that is never in conflict, never wanting, grabbing, holding.
57:54 S: Sir, what I want to ask is: can a mind which is in conflict understand such a state?
58:05 K: No, obviously not.
58:06 S: And now how is it going to set about it?
58:09 K: First be free of conflict.
58:11 S: But it is in conflict.
58:13 K: So understand the causes of that conflict. Look at it. Why are you in conflict? Why are human beings in conflict, even when they get married, have sex, children, why are they in conflict?
58:34 S: They want more of the same—security and all.
58:42 K: Yes. Because each person is thinking about himself. Right?—my family, my children, my husband. You may put your nose up, but you are going to do exactly the same thing.
58:59 S: Sir, thought is responsible for all these creations.
59:08 K: Yes, sir.
59:09 S: So if we were to understand thought, that means you will be eliminating conflict. But even our daily understanding is done through thought. How do you deny this?
59:20 K: What do we mean by the word understand?
59:24 S: You see another person acting in a different manner, so you try and…
59:29 K: I asked you what you mean by the word understand—the word.
59:38 S: To understand something is to be clear.
59:43 K: To be clear. What? Look, to understand something, you are saying, is to have a clear mind, right? That is unprejudiced mind, right?, that’s not a confused mind, that is, a mind that is not in conflict. Now, suppose I tell you something, and your mind is in conflict, you won’t understand it. I want to tell you something and you don’t pay attention to it, right? So attention, listening, giving your whole being to find out. That is understanding.
1:00:43 GS: Sir, when you look at a rock or a tree, you just see the whole thing as it is. Sir, but when you try to look at a human being…
1:00:57 K: It’s very difficult because—why?
1:00:58 S: Because you have already formed some ideas.
1:01:03 K: You have formed an opinion of the person…
1:01:06 GS: Or you are afraid of that person.
1:01:09 K: You are afraid of that person, he doesn’t smell nicely [laughs]. So you’ve all these things going through your mind, so you kind of push him aside. Right?
1:01:20 GS: How can you not do it?
1:01:22 K: Don’t do it! [Laughs] Not how can you, there is no how. If you don’t want to do something, don’t do it! When you see a cobra you don’t say, please tell me how to… [Laughter]
1:01:38 S: You just run away.
1:01:39 K: Right? Exactly. [Pause] What’s the time, sir?
1:01:44 S: Ten-thirty.
1:01:47 S: Are we changing all the time?
1:01:58 K: Obviously.
1:02:01 S: I mean you said that you look at him as if afresh. Which means when you look at him afresh without the thought of what he had done before, which means that you accept that he has changed.
1:02:19 K: That is, sir—wait a minute. You have hurt me. If I don’t understand that hurt and put it away, I haven’t changed. Whereas you might have changed because you might have said something ugly to me, but you didn’t mean it, and you’ve forgotten about it. But the hurt remains with me. So when I meet you next time, that hurt comes out. You might have changed but I haven’t. You follow? So, if I put away my hurt and you say I am so sorry I have hurt you, it is finished.
1:03:18 S: Sir, in that case how does one take any decision in that sense about a person?
1:03:27 K: You want a good teacher here—first class teacher, good brains, interested in helping you, educating you properly and so on, so on. And he comes to the door—to the valley, and says I want to do this. And you say come and stay, stay here for a week, see how you like us and how we like you, and then things happen.
1:04:07 S: Sir, is there any aim or purpose to the school?
1:04:30 K: Yes. I don’t know what you mean by aim or purpose. If I understand it rightly: why does the school exist? Right? It exists to bring about a new generation of people, right?, a group of children, students who will not be caught in the trap. Right? Will not.
1:05:01 S: Sir, I don’t think it is happening.
1:05:09 K: It is going to happen now. We have been discussing [laughs] with the teachers—yesterday morning, was it? Yes—yesterday morning and Saturday morning we spent two hours at each time, yesterday an hour and half, on Saturday two hours, saying this is going to happen here.
1:05:32 S: Is it going to happen?
1:05:34 K: It is going to happen. If not we will twist Narayan’s neck. [Laughter] And I mean it, sir. I’ve done it, you know. When I say something I mean it, I don’t just fool around with words. A foreign Questioner (Lady): Krishnaji, I feel strange that even among this group of people, quite young, there doesn’t seem to be a real urgency, a demand—you know, not so selfless.
1:06:08 K: Naturally. They’ve never been—they are all too docile here. They say my parents tell me what to do, and I will do it. Right?
1:06:27 GS: No, sir.
1:06:29 K: But you are going to do what your parents want you to do, aren’t you?
1:06:35 GS: No. [Laughter]
1:06:48 K: Sir, look, this school is going to be different, from yesterday morning! And I mean it. It means that all the students who live here are protected. You know what that means? Not watched over like a hen watches over little chicks, protected in the sense that you are free, that you are not frightened, that you are not under pressure, of exams., all that, so that your mind develops.
1:07:40 S: Sir, for that the teacher should change.
1:07:49 K: We have gone into that. If they don’t change, they leave.
1:07:53 S: It’s not that simple.
1:07:54 K: It is.
1:07:57 S: Excuse me, sir. A teacher can’t change overnight.
1:08:05 K: Teachers can’t change overnight? Why not?
1:08:11 S: They have their own fixed ideas with which they have come.
1:08:22 K: But we say the school exists for this. If you don’t fit in, please leave. That’s logic—simple.
1:08:29 S: Sir, but the teacher may want to stay for his own reasons.
1:08:35 K: He can’t. I am your guest, I come to your house, you don’t smoke, I smoke. And you say, as a guest please don’t smoke. If I insist, the door is open, please go. [Laughter]
1:08:55 S: Sir, but are you sure all of them have understood what you have said?
1:09:07 K: Understand, what do you mean—up here? In their heart, they want to do this? Then they stay.
1:09:14 S: But how do you know they’ve understood?
1:09:18 K: How do I know…?
1:09:21 S: Yes, sir. If they haven’t understood and they stay on. They will continue as it is, sir.
1:09:25 K: No, you very quickly find out, it doesn’t take very long.
1:09:31 GS: Sir, do you feel their changing will help us change?
1:09:39 K: Of course!
1:09:41 GS: What if they don’t, what if people misuse the freedom they’re given?
1:09:45 K: I don’t understand your question.
1:09:47 GN: She says what if the students misuse the freedom they’re given.
1:09:50 K: Ah, that’s part of our education, to help them not to misuse it.
1:09:59 S: What happens when you leave school?
1:10:07 K: That’s why we are talking about having a small college here.
1:10:13 GN: How many of you would like to stay, how many of you would like if there is a small college here?
1:10:34 K: Put up your hand.
1:10:35 GN: Nearly half. Why would you want to stay here if there’s a college? Because we will be continuing the same environment. Don’t you want a change and go outside? General murmur: No, sir.
1:10:45 K: So, sir, you are going to have a college. We are going to work for it.
1:10:51 S: From when?
1:10:53 S: Sir, based on what will you take students back?
1:11:00 S: Merit. (General confused talk among the students)
1:11:06 K: For God’s sake!
1:11:09 GN: He is asking if you are serious about it.
1:11:14 K: Who?
1:11:16 S: You. K; We are.
1:11:20 S: Then why wasn’t this thought of before itself, sir? [Laughter]
1:11:30 K: Because people didn’t want it. Because the people who were here didn’t say—I have been talking about it for years. I won’t go into the past.
1:11:39 S: Sir, I think if we have to do anything, to do it right now, because…
1:11:47 K: It’s going to happen, sir. We’ll have to collect the money, we have to build, you follow, sir?
1:11:53 S: No, I am not talking of the college. I’m talking about changing the school.
1:11:58 K: Whole thing!
1:11:59 S: Sir, why do you say there shouldn’t be any routine, sir?
1:12:06 K: What does routine mean? Repeating, repeating the same thing.
1:12:11 S: Mechanical.
1:12:12 K: Mechanical.
1:12:13 GS: You become dull.
1:12:15 K: Dull. So let’s find a way of—we won’t go into that now, because [laughs] we have been talking about all these things. And they are going to happen!
1:12:25 GS: I am glad because I thought it’ll never happen.
1:12:29 K: It is going to happen. If Mr. Narayan can’t do it somebody else will take his place.
1:12:38 S: Sir, there is supposed to be a students’ discussion tomorrow. I was talking to some of the children today. They said that they would be much freer to express if the staff members were not there at the students discussion—elderly children, that is.
1:12:56 K: They wanted that?
1:12:57 S: Yes, they were saying so, but then they are scared to express that.
1:13:07 GN: I think the smaller children, they have more freedom to express themselves than some of you. I don’t think they are scared. (Many students talking simultaneously)
1:13:22 K: Sir, as it is the last talk, let them all come—the staff and the children and you. Anything else?
1:13:37 S: Sir, even in this school you do have marks and exams and all that.
1:13:49 S: So what’s the point in studying in a college with the same thing?
1:13:50 K: Sir, there are several colleges and universities and schools that are experimenting with not having examinations. Right? I have been suggesting this for years. But… [Laughs] I won’t go into the past, right? You see, unless the Principal, the teachers are interested in not having examinations, no marks, comparison, until they are really interested, the thing is impossible to produce. You understand? So we are trying to bring about, with all the teachers who are really interested, to see this happens.
1:14:42 S: Let’s hope it happens next year you come, sir.
1:15:04 K: Not hope. I’ve told Mr. Narayan and the staff…
1:15:09 S: Let it happen, sir.
1:15:11 K: Hm. [Laughter]
1:15:15 S: We are also part of it, are we?
1:15:19 K: Yes, sir. You are responsible for it too, not just a few. [Laughs] I think we better stop, don’t you? Or would you like to go on all the morning?
1:15:35 S: Are you tired, sir?
1:15:37 GS: Depends on you.
1:15:37 S: Are you tired?
1:15:38 K: No, this is my job! [Laughter]
1:15:44 GN: I think we should stop now.
1:15:47 K: I think we better stop because there are other things to do.
1:15:50 S: We’ve got enough to do, sir.
1:15:53 K: You have enough to think about, rather.