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RV78DS7 - Love means having no fear
Rishi Valley, India - 19 December 1978
Discussion with Students 7



0:01 This is J. Krishnamurti’s seventh discussion with students at Rishi Valley, in 1978.
0:10 Krishnamurti: What would you like me to talk about? (Pause) Would you like to know what we were talking with your teachers, with the staff? Would you?
0:38 Many: Yes sir.
0:39 K: (Laughs) I thought you would. Do you want me to talk to you about it, to tell you what we discussed?
0:55 Many: Yes sir.
1:05 K: First of all, we talked about what the school – this school – exists for, why it has come into being. You know, we started this school about fifty years ago, and when we started it there was no electric light, hardly any water, we slept on the floor. We got up when the sun rose and got to bed when the sun went down. It was a very hard life in those days, and I used to come here and spend a great deal of time. And during these years – this is what we discussed – the school has not produced or brought about through right education one single human being who is totally developed, flowering, and is not caught by the society, the culture in which he lives. You have understood that? There hasn’t been one person – or one girl, one boy – who hasn’t been caught in the trap of the world; they became businessmen, scientists, went off to America or became electricians, engineers, but only good probably in making money, becoming engineers and so on. But the other side of human beings, the whole psychological, the whole world of the spirit, the whole world of a religious way of life, all that has been totally, completely neglected. Those are facts. And so we were discussing how to bring about in the school – here in Rishi Valley, and also in Rajghat in the north – a human being, not merely an engineer, not merely a scientist or a businessman, but a human being who is not only technologically has understood his activity in that field but also inwardly he’s very moral, ethical, aesthetic, a sense of deep religious life; not the religious life of going to a church, temples and all the rest of that nonsense, but morally, establishing a good relationship with human beings, having a global outlook, not just the outlook of some little state. And that we discussed, for some length. And then we said, ‘How is this to be brought about?’ You are following all this? Are you?
5:13 Student: Yes sir.
5:16 K: You wanted to know what we’ve discussed with the teachers, with the staff and I’m telling you. Are you interested to understand what we discussed? Because it concerns you, every one of you here, every student, every girl and boy, so please listen carefully. So we said, ‘How is it possible to bring about a total human being?’ You understand what I mean by a total human being? A human being... All right? Can you hear me? Many: Yes sir.
6:07 K: All right. I’m glad the electricity is off. We said, ‘How to bring about a human being that has no conflict in life, that isn’t constantly struggling, struggling, constantly in battle with himself and with his neighbour or with his wife or husband; a human being who is morally very, very strong like a rock, and religiously to discover for himself what is truth?’ And how is this to be brought about? You understand my question? You understand my question? Many: Yes sir.
7:27 K: Do you? Are you interested to live a different kind of life than the ordinary man who goes to the office or to a factory, from nine till five every day of his life, for the next fifty years? You understand what I am asking you? Do please pay attention, this is your life. We are concerned – at least a few of us are concerned – that you live a different kind of life, that you are happy, creative, that you have no conflict in life, that you have no problems; and we said, ‘How is this to be brought about?’ Most of the boys and girls are weak; they are not strong in themselves. They’ll be caught or influenced by their parents, by the society in which they live, by the economic conditions, by the culture in which they live, all that will bring about a pressure – for them, for you – to become like the rest of them, to become the rest of the crowd. You understood this? Yes? Now, how is this to be ended, how is it to be brought about, that a few of us at least, a few of the students, a few of you; which doesn’t mean... not... all of you; we’d like all of you to join us. All of you, every boy and girl to lead a different kind of life, who are not influenced, who are not under pressure by your parents, by your society, by your aunts, mothers, or whatever that is. So we said, most of you are not interested in a different kind of life. Is that so? Answer me, please. Are you all interested – all of you – to lead a different kind of life?
10:33 S: Sir, if... (inaudible)
10:36 K: Wait, wait, wait. I’m asking all of you. I mean a different kind of life, a life where you are very strong, that you are not easily persuaded by your parents, by your society; that you live a very moral life, not always chasing money or pursuing pleasure all the time. Are all of you interested in this? Many: Yes sir.
11:26 K: No, no, don’t... This is a very serious question, because the moment you pass your exams, you go into college and if you’re lucky you go to university and then all that you’re concerned [about] is a job. Right? Most of you are concerned with that, aren’t you? That means you want physical security. Right? Why don’t you answer me? And that’s... if you want that, that you’re only concerned to have a job, to have money, to have a wife or a husband, a house, and be caught in the trap of human misery — is that what you want? So we said, as most students, as all of you... can all of you desire, want a way of living which is not what the world is? Though here you will have academic first-class training. We are going to... We have discussed that, that you must have – you know what A-level and O-level is? – a first-class education, academically. If that’s all you want, you will have it. But we the staff, ourselves, we want also not only academic good brain, but also a human being who is happy, who is not constantly struggling, fighting with himself, with the world; he can live happily. So that’s what we were discussing, partly; and how is this to be brought about?
14:39 S: Sir, did you find a solution for this?
14:49 K: Yes. (Laughs) Have you understood what I’ve said? Yes? Many: Yes sir.
14:57 K: We want all of you, every one of you, to have a very good brain, a very good academic career; but also we want a human being, not just a machine that goes to the office from nine o’clock to five o’clock, for the rest of his ugly life. And if that is what you want – to conform to the present world as it is, which is in such chaos, such misery, such confusion – then you will have it, all of you, if you want that. But if you don’t want that, that is, to have a very, very strong moral, ethical, spiritual life, we want to help all of you. You’ve understood this? So we said how is this to be brought about? Some of you are more sensitive, more serious, more concerned; you think more deeply, you feel much more, some of you. Others don’t care. You’ve understood this? Some of you pass A-level or O-level, some of you pass excellently in exams, others don’t, because they haven’t got the capacity, they haven't got the brains. They are lazy, or whatever it is. Now, listen carefully. When somebody passes better than you in an examination, you’re not jealous of him, are you?
17:30 S: We are, sir.
17:33 K: Oh, come over here. I forgot. My support, he is. You are jealous, are you?
17:50 S: Yes sir.
17:51 K: Why?
17:52 S: Because you would like to get the same; you would like to do as well as him.
17:59 K: Why do you like to be as good as that man who has just passed some silly examination?
18:04 S: It depends upon your future, sir; if you lose your career...
18:10 K: That’s what I’m asking. That is, you want to pass your exams – right? – in order to have a good job. Right?
18:21 S: Yes sir.
18:23 K: And those of you who pass well and those of you don’t pass, do you have antagonism to him?
18:36 S: No bad feeling, sir.
18:38 K: So you have no bad feeling. You don’t get angry with him?
18:45 S: No sir.
18:47 K: You’re not jealous of him?
18:49 S: No sir. Rather, we are jealous in a way that we should have also got that, sir.
18:55 K: That’s not jealousy. You say, ‘I want to be as good as him,’ so you are not antagonistic, you’re not angry, you are not... you don’t hate him. You say, ‘He has got better brains than I have’ – right? – ‘He has got more capacity than I have.’ Right? Carefully listen to this. So some of you, as you are now, are more sensitive – right? – more thoughtful, more attentive, serious; those of you who are serious are not opposed to those who are not serious. Right? You are following all this? Listen very carefully because this is very important for you. You want to know what we discussed with your staff; I’m telling you. So as you are now, some are clever, some are not so clever, some are sensitive, others are not. So there is already a division, isn’t there?
20:21 S: Yes sir.
20:23 K: Right? Right? You are bright, the other is not. One is more affectionate, kindly, generous, the other is not. I’m not saying you are.
20:42 S: Yes sir.
20:45 K: Right? (Laughs)
20:47 S: Yes sir.
20:49 K: So there is this inequality. That’s a fact. It’s not my invention, that’s a fact; like some are tall, some are short, some have bad eyes, others have good eyes and so on, so on. That’s a fact. Right?
21:16 S: Yes sir.
21:18 K: Now, therefore you accept inequality.
21:22 S: Yes sir. We have to go with it. We are going with it.
21:28 K: Yes, you have to... It is so. I mean, that’s a red flower. You might like to think that’s a purple flower, but it’s not, but it’s a red flower. Right?
21:45 S: Yes sir.
21:47 K: (Laughs) So there is inequality. Right? Now, suppose – please listen – suppose we encourage those who are more... who are sensitive, serious, thoughtful, attentive, suppose we encourage them, we look after them, we say, ‘Go... think much more seriously, live much more seriously,’ would the others be jealous?
22:34 S: No sir, because they know their abilities.
22:39 K: They know they’re... they are not capable of what you are capable, therefore you are not jealous of them and they are not jealous of you. Is that so?
22:48 S: But the person who is weak, though he is not jealous he won’t be happy, because he is not...
22:56 K: You didn’t listen carefully. I said we want all of you, the students here – the three hundred and more – we want all of you to be this way: sensitive, alive, attentive, affectionate, not jealous – you follow? – we want all of you; but some of you are not serious, so there is inequality. You follow this? And we say, bearing in mind that we want all of you in this, not just the few.
23:35 S: But there may be only a few.
23:39 K: So there will be inequality; so there’ll only be a few. Now, if we say to the few – which means we do not neglect the others, we are careful with the others, we want the others to be equally intelligent, equally serious – we say to the few, ‘We’ll look after... we will see that you have much more... you become much more sensitive, much more attentive, more active,’ would the others be jealous of you?
24:16 S: They could, sir.
24:19 K: They could. Which means that, as you are not jealous of a person who passes examinations and you can’t – you can’t be jealous of him, it is a fact. You follow? So why be jealous? Suppose I choose you – listen carefully – I choose you. I say, ‘By Jove, this boy is much more intelligent, he’s serious, he’s thoughtful, he’s affectionate,’ and I am going to talk to you. I talk to you in the class, I see that you study properly, that you’re clean, that you... all the rest of it. Would the others be jealous?
24:59 S: Yes sir. Yes. They’re sure to be, because you would like the same thing.
25:06 K: But you can’t pass A-level; you pass the A-level, the others can’t. So why don’t you accept the fact that there is inequality: you are that and he’s that? Do you understand?
25:20 S: Yes sir.
25:23 K: But also bear in mind that we’d like all of the students – all of them – to be sensitive, intelligent, attentive, affectionate, generous and so on – all of them – but they’re not interested in it. Do you understand? Some are, others are not; and we say, ‘Let us encourage the some, the few,’ but we’d also like the others, which doesn’t mean we neglect the others. You understand? We look after them, we’ll encourage them, we’ll say, ‘Be affectionate,’ but we are going to give more attention to the few, because they want all this. Right? Have you followed all this? And if the few... If the majority who don’t want all this, if amongst them there are one or two, they come into this. You follow? It’s an open door. Careful; listen carefully. It’s an open door; if you want to come in, come in, which demands that you have capacity, that you have brains, that you are sensitive, affectionate, are serious and so on. If you want to come in, come in; nobody is going to prevent you, except yourself. You have got this?
26:58 S: Yes sir.
26:59 K: That’s partly [what] we discussed. Probably, we spent a considerable time over that, because among the teachers themselves there’s inequality – right? – some are bright, some are not; some are serious, some are not. So there is inequality there among the teachers; there is inequality among you. Some of those who are serious, we’ll work together; some of those teachers who are not, well, you can’t do anything. As long as those who are not serious don’t destroy you. So that’s one of things we discussed. I hope I have made this clear. Have I? Those of you who were there... (inaudible) ...sir? Teacher: Yes.
27:58 K: Have I missed anything?
28:00 T: It’s clear, sir.
28:02 K: I have missed something?
28:04 T: No, this is clear.
28:06 K: Right. Then also we discussed that we should have small college here.
28:11 S: What do you mean by that, sir?
28:16 K: What do I mean by that? I’m going to explain. You are too impatient. (Laughs) Right. You know what a college is?
28:28 S: Yes sir.
28:29 K: That’s when you pass... What do you pass here, when you leave here?
28:33 S: Schooling.
28:34 K: Schooling.
28:35 S: Twelfth class.
28:36 K: Twelfth class. When you pass... when you have finished with Rishi Valley – I prefer that way – you go to some college, don’t you? You go to Madras, colleges in Madras, or Bangalore, or Bombay or Calcutta or wherever you come from. Right? We want here a small college like that. In a college there are about – I don’t know how many – thousands; here we want a small college, about thirty students, who want to go through our college, which is, they’ll have science, they’ll have mathematics, whatever the colleges offer, for a small number of people. Because we want the same atmosphere, the same sense of seriousness, the quality of affection, care, all that. So that they come here at eight – when they are eight or five or whatever [age] they come – and keep them here till they are twenty, twenty-two – you understand? – so that they have good, strong bodies and a strong mind. Do you want such a college? Will you stay here?
30:03 S: Yes sir; I would like to.
30:05 K: You would like to?
30:06 S: But if you are not very good at studies, you’ll not be allowed to come back.
30:12 K: No, if you are not good at studies, you might do something else. Why make studies as the most important thing? You understand?
30:32 S: Yes sir.
30:33 K: You might come here and teach. What is wrong with that? This is another thing we discussed; which is that, especially in this country, the teachers have no respect. Right? Right?
30:52 S: Yes sir. No respect for?
30:57 K: People don’t respect them, because they are poorly paid, they have no status, they’re not worldly regarded as important people, but they are the most important people. You understand?
31:15 S: Yes sir.
31:16 K: Teachers are the most important people, not the college professors, not the vice chancellors, not the government; because the teachers are important for the reason that they are preparing a new generation of people.
31:33 S: But are they, sir?
31:36 K: What?
31:37 S: Are they?
31:38 K: That’s... Are they? Quite right. You are asking, ‘Are they?’ They should, they must, and they are going to do it here. Those teachers who are not capable, they are going to say, ‘Good morning, there is the door.’ (Laughter)
31:51 S: Yes sir.
31:56 K: Because you are important. You understand?
32:03 S: There’ll be very few teachers, sir.
32:05 K: What?
32:06 S: There’ll be too less teachers.
32:07 K: What?
32:08 S: There’ll be very few teachers.
32:09 K: But we are going to work, find out if there are other teachers who are capable to join us, join the school, Rishi Valley. You understand? It’s our job. It’s the job of Mr Narayan and a few others; it is their responsibility to see that they’re going to have first-class teachers who are interested in what we are talking about. You understand?
32:36 S: Yes sir.
32:37 K: And it’s their responsibility. It is not a joke, we are working at it. You have understood this?
32:47 S: Sir, it should also be part of the responsibility of the students here, because mostly the teachers, they get annoyed at our behaviour.
32:56 K: Quite right, sir. So it’s your responsibility too. You understand? If the teacher is not good and doesn’t help you, it’s your responsibility to say, ‘Sir, you’re not good; you’re not helping us.’ It’s both ways. You understand? It’s not just the teachers take the responsibility and you have nothing. You have understood? Will you do all this, or just shake your head now? (Pause) This is what we discussed.
33:46 S: Sir, if we feel a teacher is not helping us by any way, how do we convey it to him?
33:54 K: Oh, talk to him: ‘Sir, you’re not helping me to live properly; you’re not helping me not to be jealous, not to be angry, not to be violent. You’re not helping me to be intelligent, not just learning books, books, books.’ You understand? So tell him. If he doesn’t listen to you, go to Mr Narayan. Be responsible... Tell him, ‘Sir, what do you mean, my parents have trusted you and you’re not paying... you’re not fulfilling that trust.’ You understand?
34:29 S: Yes sir.
34:30 S: But sir, the parents themselves want us to get a job and live...
34:34 K: It’s for you to say, ‘Look, I’m going to find out.’ That’s what I mean, strong. Not just say, ‘Parents want me to become an engineer, I’ll become an engineer,’ or my parent says, ‘You must marry.’ I may not want to marry or I may want to marry somebody whom I like, not what the parents or the horoscope says. (Laughs) (Laughter) Now, will you... you have listened to this, haven’t you? It’s clear.
35:15 S: Yes sir.
35:16 K: Will you do it?
35:18 S: With the help of the teachers.
35:25 K: I said mutual. So will you do it?
35:57 S: Sir, tell us what use it is to be this sensitive if we haven’t stopped destroying each other.
36:11 K: If we haven’t stopped? What is it to be sensitive and can we stop destroying each other? Is that the question? Is that what you asked?
36:30 S: Yes sir.
36:34 K: All right. You know, the word sensitive comes from the senses. You understand? The senses are touch, taste, seeing, hear... – you know? Now, if your senses – you understand the word senses? Do you?
37:03 S: No sir.
37:05 K: No? How do I explain that? (Laughs) I’ll tell you. You like hot food?
37:18 S: Yes sir.
37:21 K: Now, the tongue tastes – right? – and you like that taste, so it’s part of the senses, isn’t it, tasting?
37:33 S: Oh yes, sir.
37:35 K: Got it?
37:36 S: Yes sir.
37:38 K: ‘Oh yes, sir.’ (Laughs) Good. Touching something hot, touching something cold, touching something soft or touching something hard – right? – all this... they’re all senses. Now, from that word comes sensitivity. Right? Are you sensitive?
38:05 S: To, sir?
38:09 K: Sensitive. To see the colours; look at those colours, look at them. To see them – right? – their brightness, their extraordinary shape, their colour, their beauty, and the hills behind it, dark – you follow? – the variety of greens. Right?
38:29 S: Yes sir.
38:30 K: Now, to see all that and to say, ‘How lovely,’ and to feel it, that’s part of your senses, isn’t it? Now, if you don’t see it, you say, ‘Yes, those are flowers. I’m more interested in my handkerchief’ (laughs) then you’re not very sensitive, are you?
38:54 S: No sir.
38:55 K: So that’s what it means to be sensitive; that implies not to hurt others – right? – not to say something cruel about others, not to be contemptuous of others – right? – all that implies to be sensitive. As you walk along... I notice many of you boys, as you walk along, you pick... you take the branch and pull all the leaves. Have you noticed it?
39:29 S: Yes sir.
39:31 K: Haven’t you? Now, would you like your hair to be pulled all the time? That’s what you’re doing when you walk by and see a branch or a leaf and you pull it. So that is an indication that you’re not sensitive. Sensitivity means care – right? – affection. Right? And the girl, somebody asked can we stop hurting, destroying, killing each other.
40:13 S: If you’re sensitive you can, sir.
40:16 K: Yes sir. If you are sensitive, you will not hurt another – right? – if you are sensitive, you won’t say anything cruel about another.
40:30 S: Sir, but if you want to do biology, sir, you have to kill some plants.
40:39 T: If you want to do biology, you have to kill some plants.
40:41 K: Not only biology: to kill the least living thing.
40:48 S: Sir, then how...?
40:49 K: Have you heard?
40:51 S: Sir, when we eat, we kill...
40:55 K: When you eat cabbage (laughs) you are killing the cabbage.
41:00 S: Yes sir.
41:02 K: So I am saying to kill the least thing; not animals, fishes, but the least... the lowest living thing, which are vegetables.
41:19 S: Sir, you have never eaten non-vegetarian, sir?
41:21 K: I have never eaten meat in all my life. (Laughs) I am sorry. (Laughter) Have you?
41:31 S: No sir.
41:32 K: Good. I’ve never smoked, never drank and all the rest of it, because...
41:40 S: Sir, but nearly the majority eat [it].
41:43 K: I know.
41:44 S: So you cannot... There is nothing wrong in eating [it], they say.
41:48 S: Sir, but you eat rice, you eat plants.
41:55 K: What?
41:55 S: Don’t you eat rice, sir?
41:57 K: I eat rice. Why not? What’s wrong with it? (Laughs)
42:01 S: They eat meat and say, ‘What’s wrong with it?’
42:06 K: I don’t want to kill the animals. (Laughs)
42:10 S: They will say, ‘Don’t kill the plants.’
42:12 K: Ah, but I have to kill the least little thing to live. You understood?
42:16 S: Then you can’t tell the lion, ‘Don’t kill the deer.’
42:18 K: I’ll tell you something very interesting. I’ll tell you.
42:21 S: Sir, you can’t tell the lion, ‘Don’t kill the deer.’
42:24 K: What?
42:25 S: You can’t tell the lion not to kill the deer.
42:27 K: No, that’s their natural life; it’s their nature. I was in Ceylon. I used to go there very, very often: Ceylon, Australia, New Zealand, all over the world before the world war and after. I was once in Ceylon – you know where Ceylon is, don’t you? Many: Yes sir.
42:53 K: Two very serious Buddhists, a man and a wife, came to see me. You know what Buddhism is? Many: Yes sir.
43:08 K: The man said to me, ‘We have a problem, a very serious problem; I hope you will help us to resolve the problem.’ I said, ‘What is it?’ He said, ‘We change our butcher’ – you know, Buddhists are not supposed to eat meat – ‘We change our butcher every week.’ I said, ‘What...?’ I said, ‘You’re not supposed to kill.’ ‘Ah,’ he said, ‘We don’t kill, but the butcher kills.’ (Laughter) Wait, wait, wait. (Laughs) ‘So we change the butcher every week.’ They said, ‘That’s not our problem. Our problem is (laughs) we like eggs very much and we are killing life when we eat an egg.’ You have understood?
44:02 S: You ask somebody else to crack the egg and eat it.
44:08 K: (Laughs) But they were not as intelligent as that. (Laughter)
44:40 T: You have got easy solutions.
44:42 K: Sir, translate this to Mr...
44:46 T: Afterwards.
44:47 K: Afterwards.
44:48 S: Sir, but you have to survive though, sir.
44:52 K: What?
44:53 S: You have to eat and kill something.
44:57 K: I said kill the least living thing.
45:01 S: Sir, but like native cannibals, they like to kill the highest living thing.
45:07 K: (Laughs) Cannibals too, because they like the human meat. So, but you’re not a cannibal, are you?
45:16 S: No sir. (Laughter)
45:18 K: So why bring in the cannibal? (Laughs) I’ve had a good laugh. (Laughs) ‘Ask somebody else to break the egg’ — I like that. (Laughs)
45:34 S: Sir, when you eat rice you are killing something.
45:47 K: I said the least living thing.
45:50 S: Yes sir, but some like to eat the higher things; like, they say it’s tastier, it’s more nutritious.
45:57 K: But I don’t want to kill. You know – just a minute – scientists are saying to kill cows, all that, is not saving the land; they take more land than they are worth. You understand? A cow – you know, in Europe they kill cows and all the rest of it – a cow needs so much piece of land to graze upon, and that land is more precious than the cow, so they are saying, ‘Don’t have cows, don’t eat meat.’ It’s becoming more and more expensive. You understand? So there are people saying, ‘Don’t let’s eat meat.’ You understand?
46:51 S: Yes sir.
46:52 K: That’s all.
46:53 S: But there are others who grow it.
46:56 K: Ah well, let them; I can’t prevent them.
46:59 S: Yes sir; you can’t prevent them so it is going on.
47:02 K: So what am I to do?
47:03 S: Nothing.
47:04 K: No, I am going to... I am going to talk against killing. Right?
47:08 S: They’ll not listen to you, sir.
47:10 K: They won’t. Will all of you listen? (Laughs)
47:17 S: Sir, the carnivores are to control these animals which eat grass, sir; if all the animals go on eating grass, there’ll be no grass.
47:27 K: That’s right.
47:30 S: So in the end, there’ll be no grass, and you’ll have to start eating meat, sir.
47:33 K: (Laughs) No sir; if there is no grass there will be no cows. Sir, wait a minute; you asked what it means to be sensitive. You asked what it means to be sensitive — we explained. You asked how can we prevent destroying each other; we went into that. Now, all this implies that you love. Do you know what love is?
48:15 S: Liking for another.
48:20 K: Liking is not the same as love, is it? I like you, but I may not like him; but if I have love in my heart, I like you, I like him. So what is love? You understand my question?
48:42 S: Liking for all.
48:45 K: Now, wait a minute. Do you love your parents?
48:51 S: Yes sir.
48:53 K: Yes? Many: Yes sir.
48:57 K: All right. Are you afraid...? What sir?
49:02 S: No sir.
49:04 K: You don’t?
49:05 S: I don’t know what love is; how can I love my parents, sir?
49:08 K: What?
49:09 GN: He says he doesn’t know what love is, so...
49:11 K: I’m going into that, sir. Some of you say, ‘Yes, we love our parents.’ Are you afraid of your parents? Many: No sir.
49:22 S: Sometimes, sir. Sir, during those...
49:26 K: You haven’t answered my question. I asked you, ‘Do you love your parents?’ you said, ‘Yes.’ Please just listen. I asked you, ‘Do you love your parents?’ and you said, ‘Yes,’ and I asked you also, ‘Are you afraid of your parents?’ And the reply is, ‘Sometimes.’ Right? Right sirs?
49:53 S: Yes sir.
49:56 K: So can fear and love exist...?
49:59 S: No sir.
50:02 S: No sir.
50:05 S: We do love people, sir.
50:07 K: Answer my question; don’t be clever.
50:09 S: No sir, during that... the moments when you’re frightened of them, then you have got no love for them.
50:15 K: So I’m asking, when you are frightened of him and you love him, can both of them exist together?
50:25 S: No sir.
50:26 S: No sir, but...
50:28 K: No; that’s all. Right? I’m not trying to stop you from arguing.
50:32 S: But I would like to ask you something.
50:35 K: Go ahead, Old Boy.
50:36 S: So if you like your mum...
50:37 K: What?
50:38 S: You like your mother.
50:40 K: You like your mother.
50:41 S: Sir, and then one day she says, ‘I’m going to give you a beating.’
50:44 K: Yes.
50:45 S: So when she says she’s going to give you a beating, you run away; you say, ‘I’m frightened of her,’ I don’t like her at that moment.
50:51 K: At that moment.
50:52 S: But then after she says... afterwards she says, ‘It’s okay, I’ll not beat you,’ you come back and cuddle up to her.
50:58 K: Yes. (Laughs) So one day she loves you, the next day she beats you. (Laughter)
51:05 S: No, you might have made a mistake.
51:09 K: I know; you made a mistake, you have been naughty, you have been throwing stones at somebody (laughs), taking some fruit from somebody else, so one day she is very... you love her, she loves you and you do something and she beats you. Can this go together - beating, fear and love?
51:40 S: Not at the same time.
51:46 K: But if there is sometime fear, sometime love, can the two exist like that?
51:55 S: They can, sir.
51:56 K: They can, but is that love?
51:58 S: What do you mean by love, sir?
52:01 K: Love means having no fear.
52:03 S: No sir.
52:05 K: That’s right, sir; you’ve got it? Love means having no fear at all. I love you and I’m not afraid of you. You might take away my money, you might take away my clothes, I’m not afraid of you because I love you. You understand? So sensitivity implies care – right? – attention, generosity, tenderness; all that is love, without fear. The moment there is fear, there cannot be love. You’ve understood this? I won’t make it more complex because there’s a lot more in it.
53:04 S: Sir, we have no feelings for our mother and father?
53:08 K: I?
53:09 S: No; do you imply that we don’t have any good feelings for our...?
53:15 K: Oh yes, you have good feelings. (Laughs) You go and... Mother can hug you, you can hug her and say, ‘Oh...’ all the rest of it; but when she frightens you, then at that moment or later on there is no love. Where there is love, there is no fear. If I love you, I won’t beat you; I’d say, ‘Let’s talk it over. You did something wrong, let’s see what’s wrong.’
53:47 S: She says, ‘Don’t throw stones at the window.’
53:50 K: Yes.
53:51 S: You throw it once.
53:52 K: Yes.
53:53 S: Next time, she says, ‘Okay, don’t,’ again you throw it.
53:54 K: Ah, wait.
53:55 S: You continue throwing it about five times, after that she is sure to be angry with you.
54:00 K: (Laughs) Quite right.
54:01 S: It’s costing her a hundred rupees... (inaudible)
54:03 K: Wait, wait; wait, wait. First time you throw stones at the window and the mother says, ‘Darling, please don’t.’ Second time you throw it, she gets a little bit...
54:15 S: ‘Please don’t.’
54:16 K: ‘Please don’t.’ Third time she says, ‘Hey, stop it!’ (Laughs) (Laughter) Fourth time she says, ‘Come over here,’ and beats you. (Laughter)
54:27 S: Yes sir; you should also understand her.
54:32 K: Now, wait a minute. Why didn’t you – please listen – why didn’t you, the first time you threw stones at the window, why didn’t you listen to her? When she said, ‘Please darling, don’t do it,’ why didn’t you listen to her?
54:52 S: Sir, you have not listened.
54:53 GN: Why?
54:55 K: Why haven’t you listened?
54:57 S: Sir, because you want to defy her.
55:01 K: That’s it.
55:02 S: And that’s a reaction.
55:04 K: That is... you want to defy her, which means you have no love for her. So if the mother says, ‘Don’t do it. Please, don’t do it,’ you pay attention.
55:22 S: Sir, at the end, it boils down to: you don’t like her but she may like you.
55:28 K: Ah, you don’t like her (laughs) but she may like you. Why don’t you like her?
55:32 S: Because she is not allowing you to do...
55:35 K: She is not allowing you to do what you want?
55:39 S: Yes sir.
55:41 K: Is that...? Ah? You want to throw stones, you want to beat your younger brother up, and she says, ‘Don’t do it,’ because she loves you, she loves him; so what happens? And you keep on beating. And she says, ‘Look, stop it.’ Next time she says... she beats you. So the mother says first time, ‘Be nicely, kindly, affectionately,’ and you don’t pay any attention. If you paid attention, there is no beating. You follow? So love means to pay attention, love means to care, and no fear. Have you understood all this, what we discussed with the teachers? This is very important for you, for God’s sake, listen. Because this is going to happen. There might be twenty or thirty students who are affectionate, caring, attentive, thoughtful, serious, and we are going to pay more attention; not that we are neglecting you, not that we say, ‘No, they are no good, just leave them alone’ — on the contrary, we want all of you to become the few; so the door is open for you to come in or not to come in, because we’re not choosing. Then you might say, ‘How do you know, if you don’t choose who are intelligent, serious, affectionate, if you don’t choose, you have already done that, when you say they are more?’ You understand my question? We say, as in the A-level and O-level, ‘Unless you come to that standard, up to that level, you can’t pass.’ So we say anybody can come into the house who is gentle, kind, serious, affectionate, and so on — anybody. You understand? It’s up to you. If you want to come in, come in; if you want to keep out, keep out. But it doesn’t mean that we’re going to neglect you. You have understood this?
58:33 S: Yes sir.
58:35 K: Right. And also we said we are going to have a college here, because we think it is very important that when you come to Rishi Valley at the age of five or eight, you remain here till you have finished your college.
58:56 S: Sir, is this college going to be only for...? Is it academic or is it...?
59:03 K: Both. Understood?
59:05 S: Yes sir.
59:06 K: Not only academic, but also to make you into a human being, not a monkey. (Laughs) We’ll have good music – the swami is here – good music; you will have science, you will have – you know? – all the things that are necessary, but it has to be small because we haven’t got the money. You understand? Therefore, being small we have to... those who really want to stay here, who really want to... Perhaps some of them may want to come back and teach – you follow? – all that. (Pause) And also we said that a school is a place where you learn, learn about the whole of life; not only mathematics or science but you learn the whole human existence, what it means, how human beings are miserable, unhappy. And we want to help those... all the students here not to live that way. You have understood all this?
1:00:36 S: Sir, when you said that you did not do well in your exams...
1:00:44 K: I didn’t pass an exam.
1:00:46 S: You said that you...
1:00:47 K: I did.
1:00:48 S: You said that you already had a status, sir.
1:00:52 K: Status?
1:00:53 S: Yes sir.
1:00:54 K: (Laughs) I didn’t.
1:00:55 S: You did, sir.
1:00:56 K: I did?
1:00:58 S: Yes sir.
1:01:00 K: How do you know?
1:01:04 S: Because you had been adopted by a worldwide... everybody knew Annie Besant, sir; you already had a status. You could do anything you wanted.
1:01:17 K: Do you know what he’s saying? Have you heard what he said? (Laughter) He said, ‘You didn’t pass any exams because you didn’t care because already you had a status.’ I said, ‘How do you know?’ He said, ‘Dr Besant, who is worldwide known, adopted you; therefore you were already high up.’ Right?
1:01:42 S: Yes, sir.
1:01:46 K: So what am I to reply to that? Ah? (Laughs) What am I to say to that? No, you see, my life was peculiar. Right? Right? I was slightly (laughs) deficient.
1:02:11 S: Deficient, sir?
1:02:15 K: Not all there. You understand?
1:02:19 S: I don’t understand, sir.
1:02:21 K: You are all here, aren’t you? Your mind is active. You’re watching, you are listening, you are thinking, you are serious, but that boy they adopted wasn’t like that. He was a little vague, dreaming, and just looking at clouds, remaining in the corner by the hour. (Laughs) You understand?
1:02:48 S: Yes sir.
1:02:49 K: I don’t remember all this, but they told me. I used to go to a school somewhere in Madras and because I didn’t pay any attention to the books, so they beat him up (laughs) and put him in a corner and he remained there till the teacher said, ‘Go home.’ (Laughs) So he was a little bit not all there. (Laughter) So that’s not status when he’s not all there. (Laughs)
1:03:20 S: No sir, you were given a status after that.
1:03:24 K: I was given a status after that, quite right; but I said, ‘No more, none of that.’
1:03:41 S: Sir, you are saying that you had a peculiar life; I don’t think that is a peculiar life, sir, it’s also a lucky life. (Laughter)
1:04:00 K: Lucky; it is not only a peculiar life you have had but you were very lucky. (Laughs) I wasn’t very lucky; it wasn’t luck. I won’t go into all that because you wouldn’t understand all that thing. They adopted because... (laughs) they adopted this boy because they thought he was the least selfish person they have seen, as a boy. You understand? You understand what I’m saying?
1:04:48 S: Yes sir.
1:04:49 K: He was not entirely selfish; there was very little selfishness in him.
1:04:58 S: Sir, if any other boy now, if he went and stood at a corner and started thinking dreamily, he wouldn’t be given anything. (Laughter)
1:05:14 K: (Laughs) If an ordinary boy sat in a corner, dreamily and looking at the clouds, nobody would pay attention to him. (Laughter) (Laughs) Well, I hope you had lot of fun this morning, apart from being serious. I am glad he has supplied a lot of the fun. (Pause) You know, when you are silent, when you are quiet, you hear far away noises. Right? You hear that goat calling, you hear a bird singing, but when you are not quiet, you are chattering, chattering, chattering, you never hear anything. Right? Right? So if you want to hear something, sit quietly for a minute and listen; listen to the wind, listen to the far-away bird, a crow calling and listen to the cough that boy is coughing; listen to your own heart beating, listen to your own thoughts – you follow? – listen; and you can listen very well if you are very quiet. (Pause)
1:07:28 Goodbye. See you next year.