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RV78DT1 - Is there a way of living not based on thought?
Rishi Valley, India - 28 November 1978
Discussion with Teachers 1



0:00 This is J. Krishnamurti’s first discussion with teachers at Rishi Valley, 1978.
0:10 (miscellaneous interactions - no subtitles) K : - Will you tell me what to talk about? May I ask a few questions? Are you all happy here, secure, and do you feel, if I may ask, that you are not compelled or under pressure to listen to what I have to say? May I ask these questions? And, as a group of educators, is this what we are interested in? Or, if you had a better job, more money, would you drop this and go away?
3:18 By questioning, one is being challenged. And one has to respond to them, not casually or indifferently, but as the challenge is, as all challenges are, demanding, urgent, compelling; what is one's response to all this? Either one is cynical or bitter, or being compelled to stay in this place because of circumstances, or we are human beings, grown up, and have willingly, voluntarily, happily, come here to do work? That’s a challenge. And we respond to that challenge with equal intensity. Every culture, which is part of us, is being challenged throughout the world - economically, socially, politically, religiously, in every direction we are being challenged. Not only from outside, from without, but also inwardly. Are we responding to it with e qual integrity? So I would like to ask, if I may, this question, whether as a group of teachers and educators, we are challenging ourselves and responding to that challenge fully. Or are we merely settling down in a comfortable place with a family and grumbling, cynically or bitterly? Somebody else travels, and we are stuck with our little family and ‘my God! I wish I could travel like everybody else!’ – and so on. I wonder what our responses are. I don't know if you will answer it. Probably you won't. But if you do answer it – to yourself at least, what is your actual response? Actual - I mean by that word - that which is taking place now. The meaning of that word is - what is happening now. I think it rather important, if I may point out, because as educators, we are responsible for the future generation. You may think that’s highfaluting nonsense, a theoretical rhetoric statement, but actually, if you observe, that you are responsible wholly for a future generation. And do we meet that challenge? I hope you don't mind my talking seriously, and if you are not interested in it, please get up and go back to your studies and all the rest of it. I am not forcing you to stay here. You don't have to listen to me at all - and I really mean this. If you do listen - and I hope you will be good enough to listen – aren’t we as educators, as grown-up people, seeing the utter misery and confusion of the world. Aren't we responsible wholly, totally, for all the children that come here, and are we educating them to meet this enormous chaos in the world? You understand my question sirs? Or, are we merely satisfied to help them to pass some exams and be academically good and the rest neglected, or we are not concerned because we have our own problems. Our own individual, personal problems and so that is always in the background. We may be very good academically transmitting some information to the students, and as educators, are we concerned with the whole development of man, of the student? Please, this is a challenge to you. You understand what I mean by challenge?
12:09 Challenge means you are asked, you are demanded, you have to answer - not to me - life is demanding this. Every event that is going on in the world is a challenge for all of us. You may say it is all very nice for you to come for a week or a month and talk about all this, but we have to stay here with our families - not sufficient, probably enough money, grumbling, cynical, bitter, a little bit frightened; therefore we are always concerned with ourselves and are never meeting the extraordinary crisis that is a great challenge. That is why sirs and ladies are asked if you are happy here, not satisfied, not saying, ‘well, it’s very nice’ - that becomestoo silly for grown-up people to say it’s all very nice and comfortable.
14:24 Happiness involves not only cultivation of the intellect, good mind, capacity to think very clearly, objectively but also have a great deal of affection, love - all that involves an extraordinary sense of happiness, gaiety - and security, which I also said. Are you secure here? Security implies great responsibility. If one wishes to be secure, one has to work for it, not others provide and I am secure. That becomes a rather infantile, rather immature way of life. Please, I am not scolding or trying to push you in any direction or compelling you to listen to what I am saying, you can always switch off very easily. So, if we can exchange, have a conversation between us in a way easily, happily; I am nobody and I do mean it, I come and go, but if we could talk each other, expose to each other of our problems, of our conflicts, of our confusion, misery, whatever it is, to talk it over - will you? Will you, Mr. Major? And you, sir – will you? Don't keep quiet, then there is no fun.
19:02 Perhaps you may talk to me or by yourself, but we are a community of people, somewhat isolated, fortunately, from the chaotic world, and as we are living in a small community, in a lovely place, we must get to know each other; trust each other, have confidence in each other. Have we? For God’s sake, come on.
20:06 GN : - May I ask something, sir. People do come with an intensity especially young people.
20:21 But this intensity is not always coupled with the learning situation. It seems to go off for various reasons which is beyond one’s control, who come with a great deal of intensity, you want to teach, you want to learn, but somehow it does not go with the learning situation, the learning fades and the intensity seems to become some kind of stalemate and you start correcting others; it happens to many people who are interested in helping the other person - you are not able to help yourself. Why does it happen? Is it possible to correct this situation? I have seen it happen with many teachers; somehow the learning process does not go on with the intensity.
21:22 K : - May I repeat the question? One comes with a great deal of enthusiasm, interest - we must be careful - the word ‘enthusiasm’ and ‘interest’. Enthusiasm soon fades, but interest is sustained…is there- it doesn’t fade. And the question is, can this intensity go with learning? Learning being not only teaching, but also learning oneself, that is not only giving information to the students about Mathematics, Geography and all the rest of it, but also learning about oneself and one's relationship with the student; can these two go together intensity and that? Is that what you are asking?
22:39 GN : - Yes K : - Is that a problem? Or are you inventing a problem?
22:54 GN : - No, if somebody has no intensity, there is no problem at all, but I think it is a problem as I see it in relationship to myself and a few others here; they may not be able to articulate it and, as we live in a small community and no outlets, it does sometimes lead to a stalemate though one may get out of it sooner or later. There is a time lag though.
23:29 TKK : - You used the word learning situation; I hope it includes the whole place, not only the classroom situation.
23:48 GN : - It includes the classroom situation as well. TKK: - Of course, we are not neglecting the classroom, but it includes the life in the community, the whole relationship.
23:59 K : - I want to understand this a little more clearly. When you say the whole, what do you mean by that? TKK : - The school, sir.
24:08 K : - The school, the earth, the trees, the rocks, the mountains and also the nature.
24:17 I want to understand what you mean by that whole. TKK: - Life here, sir.
24:23 K: - Why here? TKK : - We are here, sir.
24:37 K : - Do you separate the life here from the world? TKK : - No, not at all.
24:46 K : - So the life here is the world. TKK : - Precisely.
24:51 K : - So you are learning about the world which is yourself.
25:00 TKK : - Yes.
25:04 K : - Whether you are in a small community, in a small family or working in the world, it is the same problem. Right sir? So it is not we are here and they are there.
25:21 TKK : - We are not separating ourselves from the world.
25:24 K : - That’s all I wanted to know. So, our question is, if I understand it rightly: are we learning about our relationship with each other, our relationship with the students, our relationship with my wife or husband, our relationship with all our contacts both intellectual, emotional, sentimental, romantic - the whole of it? Is that what you are trying to convey? I come here and I have got tremendous interest, not because I come here because I cannot get other jobs. I come here because I am attracted to this- I want this kind of thing. I want it for my children, for my daughter, for my wife – I want this kind of life. So I come here because that is my tremendous interest. That interest includes teaching, the school, the whole thing. Right? Do we feel that way? Rajesh, sir?
27:13 Ramesh : - We don't feel at home.
27:23 GN : - Probably because his home is very near. Pramila : - I think I can get what Ramesh said. There are times when you feel that you are not a part of the community, however much you may try to be part of it. There is a kind of a barrier because what he meant about enthusiasm fading, I feel it is happening to me. There are times when I feel that there is only interest left - no enthusiasm. The enthusiasm with which I came is gradually fading.
28:21 K : Why? Pramila : - That is exactly what I want to know; I try to think about it a lot. There are instances when you are made to feel that you are not part of the community, then you don’t feel like doing this. You may have the interest, but the enthusiasm wanes, so you withdraw.
28:52 K : - No, wait a minute. Let’s be clear. The words ‘enthusiasm’ and ‘interest’ – right? A mother is greatly interested in her children; that interest does not fade, but being enthusiastic about something does fade. So, let us forget the word enthusiasm and stick to the word interest. Why does that interest fade when we are living in a community and you feel that somehow a barrier arises between people? Is that barrier created by a hierarchial structure?
29:42 Pramila : - I wouldn’t say it is a hierarchial structure.
29:50 K : - We are investigating. It’s not that…? Pramila : - At times, I may I interpret it that way that when a person in a particular situation imposes or insists on another person believing in what he or she says, then it becomes a kind of barrier.
30:11 K : - So opinion against opinion, judgement against judgement, evaluation against another evaluation, and each one sticking to his own prejudice, opinion; opinion is just the same as prejudice, if you go into it. So if I stick to my opinion, you stick to your opinion, naturally there is a barrier. If I think this is so and you think that is not so, that is a barrier naturally, and in that division one loses contact and one separates oneself and thereby loses this vitality, this integrity, this deep interest. Do we agree with that?
31:19 Shall we go on with that?
31:34 Why do we have opinions at all? Why should I have an opinion about you or you have an opinion? Why? Please, this is a challenge – answer it! I have an opinion about Mrs.
32:17 Gandhi, politics, this, that. What for? You haven’t answered my question.
32:44 Pramila : - I have an interest in the subject.
32:50 K : - If I have an interest in the subject, I invite criticism, I invite their information not their personal opinion. Who cares? - I am interested in that? If you are interested in that too, then opinions don't enter. If you and your husband has a child, then the child is important, not your opinion – or his opinion; you will find out what is best for the child. Do we do that here? Or my opinion is more important and so there is a battle of opinions? Right? What is an opinion? You see you are discovering something – to live without opinion. I am interested… one is interested in the right kind of living. So we both of us discuss - what is the right kind of living, not I say this is right, this is wrong, but what is the right kind of living - which means the art of living? Now, let us talk about it, investigate it together, not say this is my opinion, that’s your opinion. Then we stop investigating - then we become silly asses. So can we investigate the art of living in a community, in a world, in a family, without opinions, because opinions separate people. Beliefs separate people. Your experience opposed to my experience separates people. So can we drop all that? No - will you drop all that? I can drop it easily- for me it’s fun that way. Can you - all of you sirs? Not her – (chuckles) poor lady becomes the target! You are all the target. Can we live together in a community of this kind which is involving teaching, learning, communicating, without a single opinion? Sir, it liberates one! One is free of all this muck!
36:37 Pattabhi : - If the communication is one sided, then how is it possible to give up opinions?
36:58 K : - Communication is never one sided – there is no communication then… Pattabhi : - If a man is very interested (inaudible) with love and affection - if he doesn’t get, if he tries earnestly, then he has to create his own opinions.
37:16 K : - No, sir. I want to communicate with you with affection, with love, but you won't listen to me. I am doing this now – you won’t see all this.
37:33 R.Thomas : - We do understand that that is the right thing to do, but nobody is able to live that way. Why – I would like to know.
37:50 K: - Let’s find out why. R Thomas: - That is the problem – no one is able to live that way.
38:02 K : - Let us find out. Why not? We will go into it. I am not offering my opinion against yours. We are together investigating - why we cannot live that way, which is communicate with each other and in that communication is involved not only a communication at the verbal level, but also something much more; not merely intellectual, verbal, clarification, but also a sense of affection, care, give and take - all that’s implied in communication, sharing. You say it is impossible to live that way. I am asking you, sir - why? I am trying communicate with you. I am really, desperately trying to communicate with you.
39:38 Are you listening to what I am saying? Are you? Or are you saying, ‘For God’s sake!
39:47 I’ve already heard all this umpteen times.’ (chuckles). Are you listening to what I am talking about? Are you? Now, wait a minute. I want to be very clear whether you are listening to what I am saying or are you already forming an opinion. If you are listening to me, what do you mean by listening? Let’s be very clear. I am listening to you. What do you mean by listening ? That is your question sir. You say, ‘I want to communicate with you,’ which is what I am trying to do. Are you listening to what I have to say? And what do you mean by that word ‘listening’?
41:12 Pattabhi : - When we share our views.
41:18 K : - No views. Views are opinions. Please listen sir, I am asking what do you mean by listening? Not to what you will listen to, but the act of listening. You understand this, sir? The act - not what you are going to listen to, but the actual state of listening. I want to tell you something and I want to be quite sure that you are actually listening to what I am saying. That is all. I want to be quite sure that you are listening to what I am saying.
42:34 I want to find out what is your state of mind or your heart - whatever it is - that is listening.
42:45 You understand this; which means you have no opinion at that moment of listening. You are not judging, you are not evaluating what is being said; you are just listening. Right?
43:16 Are you, are you Indira?
43:27 Indira : - Yes K : - Don't say yes. Be very careful - It is very easy to say, ‘yes I am listening,’ and it means nothing. I am asking you - what is the state of the mind that is listening?
43:56 Is there an opinion, or you say, ‘I have heard this before’; so the state of the mind that is listening is completely empty. Empty - you follow? That quality of complete emptiness in which there is total attention. What do you say sirs? Are you listening that way?
44:45 Indira : - I am now listening to you.
44:48 K : - You are listening to me. I want to be quite sure because this is important. Am I forcing you to listen And therefore you say, ‘Yes, I am doing my best,’ or you are listening so that communication can take place. In that state of listening, neither Indira nor I exist. Only there is a state of listening. Have you lost me or am I with you? You understand what I am saying? If I say to you -I can’t say to you…you’re married with a husband.
45:57 If I say to you I love you, will you listen to that? Well sir, will you listen?
46:09 Ramesh : - We will listen, but we cannot understand what you mean by love.
46:22 K : - There you are, you see - what do you mean by love, which means you have never been loved or you have never loved; that is just what I am saying. You want verbal clarification. I will clarify what I mean by love, but it will still be verbal clarification. So let us leave love alone for the time being.
47:08 I want to tell you something - and I have great affection, care, I want to really tell you something - and to tell another, the other person must also feel that I must listen to the man. I must also have that same feeling to listen.
47:47 Have you got it? You have no problems; all that is gone. You just say - look…. I want to tell you something, and you listen. Are we in that relationship? Then there is no problem. Do you understand that? I don’t oppose your opinion; I have no opinions. Then I am only concerned with the fact. I wonder if you see that. Sir, you and I have no opinion about this, which is called a microphone. All are agreed that it is a microphone, that is a fact. So in the same way, can you listen only to the fact? Not to an opinion. When you are listening or observing a fact, opinion has no place. Right sirs, what do you say to all this?
49:25 Q: - That quality of intensity seems to come and go. There are times when we can listen completely, but other times it fades away and it becomes…
49:37 K: - I don’t think interest can ever fade away. Leila : - The intensity of interest can vary, the intensity of the interest that calls for different viewing of… (inaudible). For example, when you talk to us, we know that you are absolutely unbiased.
50:00 K : - Why? Leila : - God knows why. It is a fact.
50:10 K : - That is an easy way to get out. I won’t accept that. I said, I am asking you why do you think I am unbiased? What gives you the feeling that I am unbiased? I can tell you.
50:34 May I tell you? I only stick to facts, not what you tell me about the fact, or what I tell myself about the fact. I just look at the fact. The fact is we are living in a community and the fact is we are not listening to each other. That is the only fact. We are living in this place; we have got to listen to each other. You have your opinion and I have my opinion. This is logical. Facts have gone; opinions remain. But if we both of us said – look, let’s remain with the fact - that is in a community of this kind, we must listen to each other, otherwise it is impossible to live together. That is a fact. So, am I listening to you? Or you say, I have seen that lady for years, she is so and so and so - and I stop listening. So, can I put away my opinions? If I cannot, I cannot listen to you. You have hurt me, slighted me, insulted me and that remains - choking me, and I won't listen to whatever you say. Can I drop my hurt; otherwise I cannot listen to you; I won't listen to you.
53:24 Indira : - Not to listen, that has almost become a habit, sir – not to listen.
53:32 K: - Not to listen, of course, because I am caught up in my own whirlpool of idiocy – you agree to that?
53:46 K : - Look Indira, I am asking you something – be simple. To even…. a husband and a wife and a community and family - we must listen to each other and we cannot possibly listen to each other if we have opinions and if we have any sense of – ‘oh! You are much bigger than I am’ – any sense of comparison. Can we put all that aside and listen? Can you? This is your challenge sir, for God's sake, answer!
54:44 Mr. Venkatraman, what do you say. I am not trying to browbeat you or put you into a corner so you must reply. This is….
55:02 MV : - I think it requires a different type of training altogether to see or to listen.
55:12 K : - Different dimension? GN : - He says it really requires a different type of training from what we have received.
55:23 K: - No! the moment you use the word ‘training’, you have lost it.
55:31 MV : - Most of the time we have got used to the type of learning situation in which the chap understands, recalls an application, which is the creative aspect of the learning.
55:46 We are used to that type of thing where mostly accumulation of knowledge takes place. This type - what you are saying, see the fact of a particular statement….
56:02 K : - May I put it differently? One is conditioned one way and it is impossible to get out of that conditioning to listen properly. Is that what you are trying to say?
56:17 MV : - Yes, for most of us with the type of education we are exposed to….
56:26 K : - …has made you this and therefore that education, that training, that discipline, that way of living prevents you from listening. Is that it? Now if you see that listening has far more importance, then you drop the other. Look sir, you know as well as I do what the world situation is. The old traditional response is to carry on, let us live in the mess, we have lived in a mess before, it is nothing new and so on and so on. Or, you have to answer it totally, differently - which means I cannot be conditioned by the culture in which I have been living which has produced this chaos. The challenge is so great that I break away from it. Do we do this - or do we just say, ‘yes, that’s perfectly right,’ and carry on our way? If we are at all aware of things in the world and in ourselves, we must find a totally different way of living. Now, what is that? What is a way of living totally different from the past, which has made this mess? Now, don't offer opinions.
59:20 Don't say I know; I don't know. Can we start with that? You see, you refuse to answer!
59:36 Or do you say ‘Yes, this is the right way of living because Gita, the Upanishads or some blasted guru says this? Or do we say, I must find out, I don't know? Are you like that sirs? I will go into it. Please listen to me.
1:00:17 First of all, I must be very clear in the usage of words, because I want to tell you.
1:00:25 So, you and I must be very clear what the words mean; otherwise you’ll say this, that and the other, and we’re lost. We say the right way of living. The word ‘right’ means accurate; not accuracy according to me, but accurate - accurate means: in the observation of what is taking place now. That is accurate. Not what should take place or what has taken place. So, when I use the word right, accurate, correct it means exactly what is happening now. So am I aware of what is actually happening now, not only outside and also now - what is happening in me - which is my relationship with him or with her? I’ll go on.
1:02:03 I am telling you something – for God’s sake, listen! So, I say, ‘what is happening?’ Do I know what is happening now? Or is it always what has happened. Do you follow what I am saying? So I always know what has happened, never what is happening. So to understand what is happening, I must understand what has happened because I live always in the past. So let me understand what has happened in the past, not what is happening now. So, what has happened in the past - because that is my life. My life is what has happened.
1:04:11 And what has happened is coloured by what is happening, and that shapes the future.
1:04:31 So, what has happened which has produced in me this extraordinary chaos? What are the events that have produced this knowledge - knowledge being the collective experience of mankind? That experience, which is knowledge, is transmitted from generation to generation through the genes and so on and so on - which is the brain. So the brain is the oldest instrument man has – or the woman has - and so this brain has lived in the past, is the past and contains the past. So that brain is operating always in its conditioning.
1:06:53 GN : - If you say the brain is the past, how can you get out of it – it is the past?
1:07:14 K : - I am coming to that. You are already ahead of me. You are not listening. That is, the brain is conditioned by the past which is the tradition - the Hindu tradition, the Christian tradition, the communist tradition and so on. So that the brain is conditioned.
1:07:45 Right? Now what will the brain do to uncondition itself? Otherwise you respond always according to that conditioning, which is based on reward and punishment. I will meditate in order to . . . I will do this in order to have that. I will follow the guru in order to get that; so it is always the reward and punishment, gratification and dissatisfaction. It’s always this.
1:08:41 Rajesh Dalal : - It is not always this….when the brain sees the stupidity of all this….
1:08:54 K : - Go slow, Rajesh. This is one of our difficulties, sir. The brain must know for itself that it is conditioned; not thought tells it it is conditioned. This is important.
1:09:16 Please go into it slowly. I have heard you say this - the brain is conditioned. In the hearing of it…. in the hearing of it with the ear, I have formed an idea; the brain is conditioned, that is an idea - which is not facing the fact, but observing the fact and drawing a conclusion which becomes an idea. So I am living with the idea; not with the fact. I wonder if you see that. So all our education is to make an abstraction of the fact, which is an idea, and live according to that idea, not with the fact. You are getting this? So when you hear that the brain is conditioned for thousands and thousands of years - do you listen? Does the brain listen to the fact that it is conditioned, or thought is telling the brain that it is conditioned? I won’t move until you are clear on this point - thought is not telling the brain that it is conditioned. This is very, very important; you have to watch it so carefully.
1:11:36 Pattabhi : - How to say whether it is conditioned or not. For example, if I think in a particular direction, I always think that I am right, I am right, and then if I analyse the event, then I come to the same thing that I am right.
1:11:55 K : - I am telling you. You are a Hindu. Your brain is conditioned by the tradition, by the superstition, by the rituals, by the vedas, Upanishads - you are conditioned. That is a fact.
1:12:18 Pattabhi : - I say that it is real.
1:12:24 K : - That is a fact, isn’t it? And I am a Catholic or a Muslim and I have been conditioned for a million years.
1:12:35 GN : - No, what he says is - he thinks his conditioning is real.
1:12:41 K : - But it is a fact; it is not real or unreal; an illusion can be real.
1:12:47 Q: - How can you say whether you are not conditioned?
1:12:53 K: - I didn’t say…no!…
1:12:55 Q: - When Rajesh says he is very sure….that’s the same as (inaudible)… Rajesh : - No, I was not saying that. I was saying it is possible for the brain to play the trick that Krishnaji mentioned, to make an idea out of the conditioning. But the more it continues, it is living. So it sees that even the idea that I am conditioned, is still only conditioning. It is becoming more and more concerned now.
1:13:21 Pramila : - That is prompted by an idea, you see. Once again you are only fighting with an idea. If you continue in that case, then we are only battling against an idea which says - now you are not conditioned, now you are conditioned.
1:13:41 K : - I am delighted! The ladies are winning. Premilla : - Is there a state of being totally non-conditioned?
1:13:51 K: - That’s a wrong question. Premilla: - How do we get to…?
1:14:03 K : - That’s a wrong question. You are putting a series of wrong questions because you are already thinking in terms of reward and punishment. When you say, ‘How do I get there’……right?
1:14:22 good! GN : - The crux of the thing seems to be what Venkatraman has been saying. We all (inaudible) to a certain concept applied, and you are saying something entirely different – and the mind is too gross to sustain this or follow it.
1:14:45 K : - Which means what? That you are not listening, to what is being said. How do I know I am conditioned? You are playing the fiddle all the time; but never reading the music.
1:15:06 GN : - What Pattabhi Raman says is real, because in a situation like in this country with Hinduism being such a strong tradition - it is real, it works - though it is an illusion.
1:15:32 K : - Of course - it is an illusion which works. GN : - That again is a big barrier to face. Some people don't face it at all. Premilla : - That can apply to any other faith?
1:15:45 K : - I said I am a Catholic or a Muslim. I have been conditioned for centuries to repeat ‘Allah’ or ‘Christ’ or whatever it is, which is I have accepted an illusion which has becomes a reality, but it is still an illusion.
1:16:08 Pattabhi : - How do you say it is an illusion?
1:16:18 K : - First I said it is an illusion. Then you say - how do you say it is an illusion?
1:16:26 Why do you say it is an illusion? I might be wrong. So let us find out. The difference is this, you don't want to find out, but I want to find out what is an illusion, not your illusion or my illusion, but what makes for illusion? What do you think makes for an illusion?
1:16:58 Indira : - The very brain of us.
1:17:05 K : - No, I am asking you what is the source of an illusion?
1:17:17 Tolia : - Idea about reality.
1:17:21 K : - That is one form of illusion. What is reality? What is the cause of illusion? Would you say the cause of all illusion is desire?
1:17:53 R.Thomas : - Search for security. Seeking security in something, gratification.
1:18:03 K : - Seeking not security, but the very act of seeking which is the very act of desire.
1:18:16 I don't like this, but I like to have that. You are asking what is illusion. Where there is a desire, there must be illusion. Desire can create heaven because I live in hell and I desire - for God's sake, let me escape from this. And so I create marvellous gods and after creating the desire, that becomes real. It is much more complicated. Thought is the source of all illusion. So I say I want to find out a way of living, daily life, which is correct, accurate. I cannot find out a way of living, which is accurate, if I don't understand the whole movement of the past, which is my hurts, my longings, my prejudices, my problems, my desire for power, position, this is my past which all my grandmothers and grandfathers for the last million years had the same thing - both biologically and intellectually and emotionally, physically and psychologically. That is my conditioning, my brain is conditioned to that. It’s so obvious – a Muslim brought up, he remains a Muslim, a Hindu brought up…right? The next question is; is the brain aware of itself being conditioned or thought has said it is conditioned? Which is it?
1:21:45 GN : - If thought says it is conditioned, we are in the same field, idea, and application; so there is no release.
1:22:01 K : - See what happens. When thought says I am conditioned, then thought is separate from the conditioning. So then, in that duality, there is conflict which is what our tradition is which says you must live in conflict, and the brain says yes, we must live in conflict.
1:22:39 Man, woman, the individual, the collective, you know, the whole thing - battle, battle, battle. So can the brain know, be aware that it is conditioned? Of course, it is very simple the moment you ask that question; it is clear, if you listen. Can thought which is a fragment - would you accept that, sirs, thought is limited, though it has created Gods, though it has created traditions, though it has created all the cultural differences, political, national, religious divisions, thought is limited, finite. Whatever it does is limited. So, all our life is based on thought, our emotions are thought, our affections are thought, our love is thought, our relationship is based on thought which is memory; you were so good to me and I love you. All the architecture, the gods, the rituals, the relationship between man is based on thought, and therefore limited and therefore quarrels, battle. So, is there is a way of living which is not based on thought? Sir, this is your challenge, listen to it, for God’s sake, find out! You are educating the students to acquire knowledge so that they can act skillfully in this modern world or unskillfully, and their whole process of living is based on knowledge - which is limited. Knowledge whether it is Einstein's or yours or mine, any knowledge is always limited because knowledge implies the past. So you are educating these students to live a limited life and so you are helping them to live a beastly, quarrelsome, egotistic life; they may be good at Mathematics, and get a good job, but you are educating them for that. And so I am asking myself what am I to do as an educator with so many children as my total responsibility that they must have knowledge and yet realise knowledge is very limited, and any action based on knowledge except cycling, building a bridge, bathing and so on? Any knowledge in relationship is destructive. Go on, sir. What are you going to do? That is the challenge you have got to face if you are worthy as a good educator – that is your challenge.
1:28:34 Tolia : - There can be some moments in living without thought.
1:28:39 K : - It’s like a man who has toothache all the time and says, ‘some moments I am free’! He’s nuts, he’s neurotic! So I have to do something, That’s the challenge I have, and I have got to do something. I have got to teach them Mathematics, how to drive a car and all the rest of it, but any knowledge in relationship is destructive beyond words. If I say - you are my wife or husband and I love you, you follow. I wonder if you see all this? Is love a remembrance? If it is, it’s not love – but we live on rememberances, both sexually, every way, we live on rememberances.. So can I help those students to be totally human beings; otherwise you are not worth the salt as teacher. You are here to then merely to get a few grains, a few rupees a little comfort.
1:30:53 For God’s sake!, I’d better stop now.
1:31:19 (no subtitles for rest of audio)