Krishnamurti - Learning the art of attention

Krishnamurti Subtitles

RV78DT2 - Learning the art of attention
Rishi Valley, India - 2 December 1978
Discussion with Teachers 2

0:00	This is J. Krishnamurti’s second discussion with teachers at Rishi Valley, 1978.
0:10	Krishnamurti: This is a dialogue, not a talk by me, but a dialogue – which means not that I’m teaching you English – which means a conversation between two people who are friendly, who want to investigate certain problems, so I hope you don’t mind if we turn this into a dialogue. I would like to discuss with you, if I may, the question of comparison, which we talked [about] the other day to the students; why we compare at all, both in our personal lives and our educational system is based on comparison. The examinations are the ultimate expression of that comparison. Shall we talk about that? Would that interest you?
1:46	(Pause) Or would you like to talk about something else?
2:04	(Pause) Please, set the ball rolling. Where is Mrs Major?
2:35	Questioner: She has gone to Bangalore.
2:43	K: Bangalore has come here and she has gone over there. That’s alright.
2:56	(Pause) Can we put it down, the discussion: what is the function of a good teacher, a good educator?
3:12	Can we discuss that? Absolute silence. George Narayan: I would like to talk a little about comparison, as to how really one feels about this whole business of comparison, because it seems to be coming in diverse ways, especially in the classroom and elsewhere. Does one think that through comparison one is teaching in a better way or helping the student in a better way? If you feel you are teaching in a better way through comparison, one must talk about it; because some educators, especially the old type of teachers, feel that through comparison, competition, a certain amount of fear, you are promoting discipline in the classroom. Many teachers feel that, and they think with that basis they can promote learning. I think some of the older teachers here will be quite familiar with this kind of argument. Do some of you feel that through comparison, a lot of marks – the whole teaching is also comparative – do you think you are promoting learning or making your subject more interesting or creating a better sense of discipline?
5:04	(Pause) It’s quite interesting to discuss this, because if you compare and I say, ‘Please don’t compare,’ you may say, ‘Well, unless I compare and bring in some of these things, I really can’t maintain discipline or teach effectively.’ Some teachers do say that. Do you think in those terms or do you feel the need to see the beauty of not comparing and teaching that way?
5:42	R. Thomas: Would you say that pointing out to a child that, ‘You could have done better by better application,’ is comparison?
5:51	GN: Well, I think it depends the way you say it.
6:01	RT: Oh, I mean, if you just point out to the child that, ‘You are capable of doing better, if you pay a little more attention and apply yourself to the work,’ would you say that it is comparison? Personally, I don’t feel that is.
6:11	GN: It would be if you are not teaching in an interesting way.
6:16	RT: Ah, then so many things come into it.
6:18	GN: That’s right.
6:19	K: So I would like to begin, if I may interrupt, what do we mean by comparison, to compare?
6:30	Is that better?
6:34	RT: That’s exactly what I am not clear about, sir.
6:42	K: Let us clear it up. One compares between two materials, between two cars, between two gardens, RT: But they are inanimate, that’s the difference.
6:57	K: Just let’s go slowly, slowly, slowly. Between two architectural beauties, between two structural movements of life. May I go on like this way? I’m using the word structure in the sense movement, not static structure. All structure is movement; the word itself means that, structure. Beyond that certain point, where there is comparison between two materials, two cars, two houses, between tall and short and so on — we’re not dealing with that kind of comparison; let’s be clear. We are dealing with psychological comparison.
7:56	Right sir? Psychological being: I am better than you, or you are not so good as somebody else. This constant variations and differences and opinions, judgments, according to some fixed idea. Right? And from there we compare. One compares between two painters; in comparing the two painters, you never observe the painting. I wonder if you... You’re just wobbling between the two. Can one observe a painting – I’m just beginning, please – without comparison? A better writer, better poet; one may prefer Keats to Shakespeare and so on.
8:59	Now, what is the reason, psychological reason, of comparison? I can understand between different materials. This kurta is not so good as the other and so on; this material will last longer than the other — it’s necessary there. A better car and so on. But, if we understand that clearly, then why do we compare psychologically at all? That’s the real crux of the matter.
9:41	Why? Go on, sir; it’s a conversation. I compare myself with you, who are more clever, brighter, intelligent, nice looking and so on, and in that comparison I make myself dull, because I’m not as good as you are. So I’m always struggling to be like you, which means I’m always imitating you, conforming to the pattern set by you. Right? Are you following all this, sirs? Am I...? So I am... this movement of comparison is away from me. Right? It’s obvious. Psychologically, it is an escape from me. Right. Would you say that?
11:00	Cathy Harris: At the same time, it seems that it makes the me much stronger.
11:08	K: Not necessarily. Please, this is a discussion. Sir, there are so many of us; discuss.
11:20	Pattabhiraman: Sometimes if we compare with others, we can find out our own weaknesses and then we can come out of that.
11:28	K: Do you compare...? Is that so? I compare myself with you, do I become better than you?
11:40	Pa: Sometimes, it gives a sort of thinking; I can think that, ‘I am weak like this, I am weak like this,’ so I can march like this, so I can think in a better manner.
11:52	K: No sir, you’re not... (Laughs) You’re not meeting the...
11:56	GN: What he’s saying is: through comparison, I can see my weaknesses and mistakes and rectify them.
12:06	K: Is that so?
12:07	GN: Yes. Rajesh Dalal: There is an area in which it is so. If I want to be a good English teacher...
12:18	K: Come over here, sir; I can’t see you.
12:21	RD: If I want to be a good English teacher...
12:24	K: Come over here. (Laughs) RD: I’m saying if I want to be a good English teacher – I really want to teach English well – and I see another English teacher and I compare, I see that he does it this way, it is a kind of imitation.
12:43	K: Ah, no, no, no.
12:45	RD: I see the beauty of...
12:46	K: No sir, just a minute. You teach English better than I do. Is that comparison? We are concerned with the English language. You teach it in one way and I teach it in another; and I am not, perhaps, as... I haven’t got the capacity to teach it as well as you do. So capacity is involved. Right? And how do I change or bring about greater capacity. Will that greater capacity come through comparison? That’s what you are trying to say, in different words.
13:43	GN: Yes.
13:44	K: Will greater capacity come...? Is that the result of comparison? Capacity.
13:52	Kabir: Is it only capacity that is involved? If he has taught English for more years than I have, there are many things that I could learn.
14:05	K: Learning is not comparison.
14:08	RD: Sir, isn’t there a comparative learning in the functional, technical sense, not in the psychological sense?
14:17	K: Wait sir. Yes.
14:18	RD: So is referring to...?
14:19	K: You know how to dismantle a car.
14:23	RD: Right.
14:24	K: I don’t. I learn from you, but that’s not comparison. When I learn from you and I want to beat you at it, then comparison comes in.
14:46	In learning, there’s no comparison. Is there? T. K. Parchure: My knowledge about myself is relative after seeing another one only.
14:58	In the beginning, by myself, I didn’t know what my capacity is; when I see another’s capacity and then I see it has a better...
15:07	K: No. Capacity. It’s not... Sir, he has greater capacity; we are discussing capacity.
15:16	I haven’t the capacity which he has in dismantling a car. Right? I learn from him.
15:25	TKP: Before wanting to learn...
15:28	K: No, I... All right. TKP: Before wanting to learn, didn’t you see that he is better then you?
15:36	K: No, I don’t know. All that I know is, I don’t know how to dismantle a car; but he knows, so I learn from him. Where is comparison involved?
15:52	Pa: Now again, I am teaching yoga asanas, if I see some other person who is teaching yoga asanas, naturally I’ll compare with that person how I am teaching and how he is teaching. Then if something, if anything good is there, I try to...
16:03	GN: Try to learn.
16:04	Pa: I try to learn, yes.
16:07	K: You are learning. That’s the point, sir.
16:11	Pa: No, again, through comparison only... Pupul Jayakar: Sir, if I may put it... if I can say one thing, isn’t there one element involved in comparison, which is that in approximating yourself with another you either shrink because you consider you are worse – inwardly shrink – or you expand because you consider yourself better. This shrinking and expanding, which is a psychological process, when it enters the field of approximating with another, then it is in the realm of comparison. There is always inwardly either a growing smaller or a growing bigger, but in the learning process there is no growing smaller or bigger, there’s neither shrinking nor expansion.
17:02	K: So what is it we are discussing?
17:05	PJ: That in comparison inwardly there is a shrinking within oneself or a becoming bigger, when the process is comparison. When the process is learning, there is neither shrinking nor expansion.
17:16	Q: Isn’t there in learning, sir, you just see the fact as it is in this particular respect?
17:25	Do you see the fact that...?
17:29	K: No, just... Please. Do you compare yourself with anybody? Be straight... very honest about all these matters, otherwise we can’t discuss these things, otherwise we play... we become hypocrites. Do I compare myself with anybody? ‘She is more beautiful than me, more intelligent than me,’ and when I do that, what takes place in me?
17:59	Won’t you come and sit here, some of you; you’re so crowded there. For God’s sake, there’s so much room in here. Avanti. Please, push nearer. That’s right, come and sit here. Pharbathi, and who is the other bird?
18:18	Q: Shiva.
18:19	K: Shiva, that’s right. (Laughter) L. Rao: Sir, why should we always compare with somebody else? Why not compare ourselves with our own achievements? In which case...
18:38	K: No, no, I’m asking you, do you as a human being compare yourself with another, both psychologically as well physiologically? Do you?
18:50	LR: We do.
18:51	Q: Yes.
18:52	K: Yes?
18:53	Q: It needn’t be comparison with another; it is an urge to excel.
19:00	K: Wait, wait. First let’s see the fact that you do compare. Right? Do you?
19:09	LR: Very often, we do.
19:14	K: (Laughs) We refuse to face facts.
19:17	GN: She says, ‘Very often, we do.’ K: All right; if you do, why? What is the urge, the desire, the intention in comparing yourself with another?
19:35	Sharada: We try to improve ourselves.
19:39	K: We try to improve ourselves. What does that mean?
19:46	Mary Zimbalist: Sir, if I say, ‘Narayan knows more about mathematics than I do,’ am I comparing?
20:05	K: I don’t compare.
20:06	MZ: No, but if I say that.
20:07	K: I say, ‘Narayan knows more mathematics than I do,’ I want to learn from him. But when I say, ‘Narayan, by teaching mathematics, has achieved a status, and I want to achieve the same status or go beyond that status,’ then the mischief begins.
20:27	Scott Forbes: Sir, could we say that the difference between learning and comparison is an involvement of the ego?
20:34	K: Yes sir. I don’t want to enter into ego and all the rest of it, for the moment. I am asking why human beings throughout the world compare themselves with somebody.
20:45	Q: We want to feel secure.
20:48	SF: But it seems, sir, that the ego might be...
20:52	K: Through comparison you become secure? My God, that’s the most destructive security; you’re always wobbling: ‘I’m not so good as him,’ and you’re in a state of agitation.
21:05	Q: No, but if you want to excel yourself and you’re comparing with another person, that means you have got a tangible example to emulate.
21:17	K: So, if you have got a tangible example, then you are trying to imitate him.
21:20	Q: No, why not say emulate him?
21:23	K: It’s the same thing. You use different words but it’s exactly the same thing. I emulate, I copy, I imitate, I conform.
21:33	Q: No, copy has got a very low connotation, I feel. (Laughter) K: Ah, but emulation is the same thing. (Laughter) By employing a better word, you don’t... it’s the same fact.
21:52	N.V. P: Sir, ‘He knows more mathematics than I do,’ is a fact, and if I see the fact and I want to learn mathematics from him, there is no comparison.
22:06	K: Of course, not. NVP: He’s not superior to me.
22:10	K: No, I don’t bring in superiority or inferiority; I just say, ‘He knows more.’ Full stop.
22:17	Q: Sir, in relationships where a new teacher and an old teacher – when such a situation is there – superiority and inferiority comes in very often. That’s why I’m using that word. The new teacher thinks sometimes that he is inferior to the senior person, but, ‘He knows more mathematics than I do,’ is a fact. I see it, I want to learn mathematics from him and I learn mathematics from him. But he knows more mathematics, he has a higher position, higher status, I want a higher status...
22:52	K: That’s all, sir; that’s where...
22:54	Q: Then I’m deviating from the fact.
22:55	K: That’s all I’m saying, sir. When I stop learning, but use learning for the acquisition of a status, then I’m comparing. Full stop; it’s clear, as mud. Is it as clear as mud?
23:08	MZ: But sir...
23:10	RD: Clear.
23:11	K: Mud?
23:13	RD: (Laughs) Just clear.
23:15	K: (Laughs) All right.
23:18	MZ: Sir, if one says, ‘This student is not doing well in his studies,’ is there comparison in that or is that a statement of fact?
23:31	K: Maria, let’s first understand the whole process of comparison; what the implications are involved in it and the consequences of it, then we can come to the particular. First understand the whole structure of comparison, then come to details; but if we start with details, we’ll end up with nothing. So first let’s be clear what we mean by comparison.
24:04	That’s all I’m trying to get clear. There is no comparison – is there? – when I am learning. You know more about biology, history, geography, physics, than I do — I’m learning from you. But you get all the garlands and I get all the kicks.
24:38	(Laughter) And so I want to have the garlands, I want the position, I want the status, then begins the whole comparative struggle. Right? That’s simple and clear. Now, if that’s clear, how do we, as educators, convey this fact to the student? Because he is competitive, he is comparing, he is imitating; his whole background is that: his parents, his society, his education, his religious background is to compare. Right? So how am I, as an educator, knowing exactly what we mean by comparison... Do we? That’s all; I want to be clear on that point.
25:47	Ka: Is there one more element in comparison, that is insecurity? Because I feel insecure, afraid, I’m constantly comparing.
25:57	K: Sir, that means what? As I’ve said, at first, which means running away from myself.
26:05	Ka: Precisely.
26:06	K: As long as I am running away from myself, an indication of that is comparison.
26:15	Ka: Because I’m running away, I want to compare and see whether others are running faster than me.
26:19	K: That’s what I’m saying. So is this clear? Evelyn Blau: May I just ask something else? Is there another factor in comparison, which is ingrained in the basic human being, that is, as a child is growing up it observes how to walk, how to run, how to speak, and it learns that way because it hears its mother speaking, it sees how... so that is in the core of the human being, that learning how from observing others.
26:58	K: But when the mother says to the child, ‘You are not walking as well as your brother who did it at the age of two,’ then you’re back in the whole business. I think this is fairly clear. Can we start...? Is this clear?
27:16	Sh: Yes.
27:17	K: Now, what do you mean by clear?
27:20	Sh: I’m clear.
27:21	K: No, what do you mean by being clear? Verbally clear?
27:26	Sh: No, I understand what you said.
27:28	K: No! It’s not what I say. Do you understand, psychologically, the whole consequence of comparison? Not understand intellectually, but see the fact.
27:48	Q: When there is comparison, there is no pleasure and there is no learning; it is only to achieve something and...
27:57	K: Quite right. Now, are you like that, or are you merely stating that as an explanation?
28:05	Q: I mean, when one compares...
28:07	K: No madame, I am asking quite a different question. Are we discussing theoretically or factually? Factually means, am I doing that?
28:25	(Pause) Verbally, descriptively, it may be clear, which means I understand the meaning of the words, the ideas that are conveyed through the words, I intellectually grasp it, but that grasping intellectually has nothing whatever to do with my daily life. I become... one becomes a hypocrite; if one wants it, that’s all right. But if we are talking of helping the student to understand the whole nature and the structure of comparison, then we must be clear not only verbally but psychologically. If I am comparing psychologically and telling the student not to do it, it means... gradually he’ll spit on my face — quite right.
29:34	Q: Sir, when the student conforms in a classroom, when the student is sitting in the classroom and observes other people’s behaviour and then conforms to that behaviour, is that a hint that comparison is taking place?
29:57	K: No sir, that’s a different question. Let us stick to one thing, sir, comparison, because that involves another way of looking at it. May I stick to one thing – if you don’t mind – that is, if I am learning there is no comparison but if I am using the learning to achieve a status, because he has greater status than I have and I am feeling inferior and I struggle to reach up to his level, I call that comparison. Both physically, as well as psychologically. Physically, he gets more money than I do, he has a better car, a better house, a better dress, better sari and all the rest of it. So I have to ask myself, if I’m honest, am I comparing psychologically with another?
31:12	(Pause) And if I am not – and I hope we are not – then how am I to convey this to the student: that comparison, psychologically, is a very destructive thing? I don’t know if you...
31:37	I feel very strongly about the matter. (Pause) You see, the whole of our educational system is based on that. Right? All social structure is based on that. The minister, the Prime Minister – you know? – down, down, down, up, up. Religiously, it is exactly the same thing. Economically, socially, morally, ethically, religiously, politically, the whole structure is based on this. I don’t know if you see it. So if you are going to teach the children not to... you are revolutionising the whole system. Right sir.
32:36	RD: Sir, in perspective, could we discuss the depth of how...?
32:42	K: I’m coming to that, sir.
32:43	RD: The destructiveness of comparison.
32:46	K: Obviously. A and B: A says, ‘B is better than me’ – right? – and the teacher says to me that A is better than B – or rather, the other way – B is better than A. So what have you done to A, as a human being?
33:07	RD: Hurt him.
33:09	K: Hurt him. Go on; explain it, sir. Hurt him, made him... belittle him.
33:18	RG: Made him jealous.
33:21	K: Bring about a jealousy, anxiety, uncertainty, conformity — all that’s implied; so it is the most dangerous thing. Of course, you don’t...
33:32	M.V. P: There is another very important aspect of comparison in the classroom...
33:42	K: Wait sir. First see... Don’t bring in the classroom yet. I want to make this clear: that comparison, psychologically, is a very destructive process.
33:56	EB: Sir, before the child ever enters the classroom...
34:02	K: No madame, I don’t want to enter into the child and the classroom. I am asking you, do you, do we see the truth – the truth, not my opinion against your opinion, your judgment against my judgment. I have no judgment, I have no opinion about the matter. I’m saying, look, this is what happens when you psychologically compare, that you are denying A and encouraging B. That means you are denying the essential human nature of A. You’re making him conform, you’re creating in him the sense of inferiority, jealousy, hatred — all that you are creating through comparison, and is that not dangerous to the psyche?
34:59	SF: And couldn’t you say, sir, that it’s equally destructive for B because it makes him feel superior?
35:05	K: Of course, of course. B is comparing himself with C. The whole process goes on. Sorry to be emphatic, but there it is.
35:16	RD: Sir, there is one aspect...
35:19	K: Wait; do you see this?
35:21	RD: Sir, I want to say something with regards to this itself. I have often watched in me that, as an educator, I see this...
35:32	K: As a human being first.
35:33	RD: No, just listen. As an educator, I see this...
35:36	K: I refuse to separate the human being from the educator.
35:39	RD: I know, sir, I’m bringing in the same division within me. As an educator, I see this and I’ll never compare two children, and I don’t, but the same within me for myself, in my own daily, actual life is not equally emphatic. And I don’t understand...
35:57	I want to understand this division.
35:58	K: What division?
35:59	RD: As an educator, I will never compare.
36:06	K: Wait; all right. What is an educator? Tell me, sir, you are all educators here. What is an educator? A man who has passed... taken a degree and has acquired certain knowledge according to some special subject. Is he an educator, because he is giving information about that subject in which he has passed an examination? Is he an educator? Come on, sir; discuss with me. I’m not...
36:49	RD: I understand.
36:51	K: That’s what we have made him. You follow? That’s what we call him: an educator. We have limited that profession of educator to a very small, narrow, limited existence. First he’s a human being, then as a human being he should be an educator; not pass some blasted degrees and then gets a job.
37:24	RD: Sir, but you did not answer my question.
37:30	K: What is that?
37:33	RD: I see, when you said this, that comparison is dangerous.
37:38	K: Do you see it, sir? Now, wait a minute; do you have a quick perception into it, or are you going to argue? I can argue.
37:50	RD: No, not argue; I see it, sir.
37:54	K: You see the truth of it?
37:56	RD: I see the truth of it; what happens to me is I see the truth of it for the child. You see, it always moves away outside that.
38:04	K: No, leave the child, the student, another, out of it. I’m asking you, do you, Rajesh, see the truth of this fact?
38:20	(Pause) RD: Not with that clarity with which I can say that it has ended.
38:34	K: No, do you...? No, no; if you see the truth of the fact, that truth says everything else is unreal.
38:44	RD: Sir, is there anything called penetration of this insight into oneself?
38:51	K: We are doing it now.
38:54	RD: Because I see that the deeper I have gone in this, this is becoming more true. Now, you will not accept such a statement.
39:01	K: Ah! There is no more true. (Laughter) RD: I know, sir, but I am saying it is happening. There was a time when I would have compared...
39:07	K: Just a minute, sir. I am asking you, do you see logically, reasonably and therefore sanely that comparison with all its sequence is a dangerous factor in our life?
39:32	RD: I do.
39:34	K: Wait. When you say, ‘I do,’ is it an idea that you see and agree with that idea?
39:40	RD: No, it’s operating in my daily life.
39:44	K: So, which means what? That you, Rajesh, are not comparing; otherwise it’s not a fact.
39:52	RD: But you see, sir, when we see logically...
39:59	K: (Laughs) Logically, because I’ve explained the meaning of the word, and also there is comparison between two material cars, and also psychologically I said when A compares himself with B, A is putting himself into a position where he’s denied, degraded, feels ashamed, jealousy, hatred, anxiety and always struggling, struggling to be something else. I’ve explained that. And do you see the consequences of comparison?
40:42	RD: I do.
40:44	K: You may see it intellectually, but the seeing intellectually is not the actual application of it.
40:58	(Pause) LR: Sir, what if A compares himself to himself?
41:07	K: Now, do you?
41:09	LR: Very often I do, when I feel that I have not done... I could have done better. Isn’t that a degree of comparison? ‘This class has been this much, I could do much better in my next class.’ K: Now, wait a minute, wait a minute. What is involved in that?
41:22	LR: A desire to...
41:25	K: No madame, just go slowly, go slowly, go slowly, step-by-step. He teaches me yoga and my muscles are not used to... are not pliable enough. Right? So he says, ‘Do it slowly, go at it week-by-week, day-after-day, your muscles will get more supple.’ Right? Psychologically, inwardly, you say, ‘Yesterday I was angry, I hope I’ll be less angry today and tomorrow I hope I’ll be less angry.’ Right? That you call comparison. The more – right? – the word more implies comparison. Right? The better implies comparison, which means measure. Are you...? Measure. Now, one’s mind, one’s brain is conditioned to that. ‘I was yesterday, today and tomorrow’: less, more and more. That is, time is involved in it. I won’t go into the whole question of time, for the moment. So, you are comparing from what you were, to today and tomorrow. Right? So is that your conditioning? Is that your tradition?
43:32	Is that your habit?
43:33	Q: It’s not...
43:35	K: Wait, wait. Of course it is. Because you are educated to that, you are conditioned to that, that’s your tradition. When this lady says, ‘I’ll improve myself,’ it is that. You never question what is the me that’s improving. Is there such a thing as me which is selfish, improving to become more selfish? No, no; I don’t want to go into all this, that leads to a little more complex problems. So when you say more, you’re already involving in measurement. See the importance of it. Can you look at yourself without measurement?
44:31	(Pause) I’m angry, and I look at that, but if I say, ‘I was more angry than yesterday,’ I’ve brought in measurement. Therefore, I’m not facing anger; I am measuring anger.
45:02	You get it? Is this clear? T.K. K: Sir...
45:07	K: As clear as mud? What sir? Somebody... TKK: In other words, you are trying to say is that... In other words, what is implied is that we should get rid of all standards of excellence and all sense of duty from our mind.
45:25	K: No, no, no. Excellence is something... not standards of excellence. TKK: No, I won’t bring in excellence. Standards? Did you say standards?
45:30	K: No, the moment you have standard, you have measurement. TKK: But that’s what I said.
45:34	K: Excellence is not measurement. TKK: No, I won’t bring in excellence. We should get rid of... we get rid of all standards from our mind, the measure.
45:43	K: Measure. Stick to that word. It’s a very good word. TKK: Yes. That’s correct; the standard is the measure.
45:49	K: No, measure. TKK: Measure.
45:51	K: I measure myself with him, both physically and psychologically. Right? I won’t go into the whole question of what is measurement, which is time, which is thought; I will just leave all that alone for the time being. I come... I measure myself with him, which is comparison. Now, Mrs Rao says to me, ‘Can’t I compare myself with myself?’ The myself is – or was – yesterday, so today I am better, tomorrow I’ll still be better, which is the measurement. This measurement allows me to escape from the fact.
46:39	Ka: It’s like this.
46:41	LR: But it also motivates me...
46:43	K: Ah no, I don’t want... When you say – just listen to it carefully – when you use motive...
46:49	LR: I’m sorry. (Laughs) K: When you say motive, what do you mean by motive?
46:54	LR: Again, the desire to excel.
46:57	K: No. Motive implies...
46:59	LR: Ultimately, a desire to reach excellency.
47:03	GN: Can I say something? Is it the urge to learn or the desire to excel? What is it that’s happening? Is it the urge to learn something or is it the desire to excel? Which is desire to excel, all it’s a blockage.
47:14	LR: But the urge to learn... what is the motive for the urge to learn?
47:25	GN: You’re observing.
47:26	K: No. Wait, wait. What is the urge to learn? The urge, curiosity. Wait; go slowly, madame.
47:34	I am curious to know how a motor works. I have undone... Personally, I have stripped a car completely and put it together. Now, curiosity made me open the engine, take it all to pieces and put it all together. Now, he comes along and says, ‘Look, I’ll teach you a better way of putting the machine together,’ so I learn. First is curiosity, then the interest in the whole mechanical process – how it’s put together so beautifully and so on, so on, so on – and having the capacity, if anything goes wrong, to put it right. But the moment you say, ‘He’s a better mechanic that I am’ – which he is, because he gets more money – then I am back into the game. It’s so simple when you understand this.
48:39	So I want to come back to this: can you live without measurement?
48:48	EB: Sir, am I just deluding myself that I’m not comparing myself with the woman who sweeps my room? Is that a delusion?
49:07	K: No, the woman who sweeps your room, that’s her function. If each one did his function and not seek status, then the thing is quite different. No...
49:21	EB: Those comparisons, though, when they’re not quite so obvious, somehow your mind is subtle enough to deal with it, but there are very obvious distinctions that could seem very glaring when you look at them, and you question yourself as to whether you are just pretending.
49:43	K: Mrs Blau, if I may ask – not you personally, I wouldn’t be imprudent or inquisitive – but can we live without measurement? That’s the whole point.
50:00	EB: If I could be in relationship, I could be without measurement.
50:05	K: I’m doing it, I am doing it, I am doing it in relationship. If I live without measurement in my relationship, the whole relationship undergoes a radical change. Now, just come back. I’m an educator, that is, I have got a degree – perhaps if I had a better degree or better brains, I would go off and do some business or become a prime minister or whatever the nonsense is – but I haven’t got such a good brain, so I become a teacher. I’m not insulting you. (Laughs) (Laughter) And what is my function? My function is to teach what I know. Right? What do I know? I know about mathematics, the new mathematics and the old mathematics, so I teach it, and I limit my whole existence to that little area of mathematics. Right? Is he an educator?
51:28	Q: No.
51:30	K: Wait; don’t say, ‘No,’ so quickly. That’s what we are doing. You may not. Is that what we are doing? Please, let’s be honest about this matter, for God’s sake.
51:53	Come on, sirs, don’t all sit quiet; come on. Or I’m using the word educator in its total sense, in its inclusive, that is: learning about the whole of life, not just mathematics.
52:16	For God’s sake, that’s so... (Pause) Right? So whole of life, which means my physical life – food, clothes, shelter – my inward life, with all its ambitions, greed, envy, covetousness, ambition, struggle, grief, pain, pleasure, fear, sex — all that is my life. Right? Right? Sir, you’re all so... Please, am I...? It becomes like...
53:23	LR: Sir, when you say whole of life, what exactly do you mean?
53:25	K: This is what I’m explaining, whole of life: my relationship to my wife, to my husband, to my girl, to my neighbour, to the skies, to the rock, to the nature, to the birds — my relationship to life.
53:42	RT: Is there any one person who is equipped to do that, sir, in that total sense?
53:48	K: Of course; otherwise you’re not an educator.
53:51	LR: Now, the whole of life...
53:53	K: Not you, madame; I’m not saying you.
53:57	RT: No, I know.
53:59	LR: Now, the whole of life for me will be quite different from what the whole of life to you means.
54:06	K: Not in the least.
54:07	LR: Now, I may have a different sense of beauty, a different sense of joy.
54:12	K: Wait. Have we a different sense of beauty? You make a statement of that kind — have we? Then we have to discuss, very clearly, what is beauty? Not your sense of beauty and my sense of beauty, but what is beauty? That leads off to something else. I don’t want...
54:46	I mean you may prefer a blue to my... I may prefer... that’s not beauty. That’s good taste. So I’m asking – I must come back – are we educators concerned with the totality of life or a small part of life? What do you say, Rajesh?
55:16	RD: Sir, we don’t see, perceive totality in this instant.
55:22	K: No, I’m not... We may not. Are we concerned?
55:26	RD: Yes, we are. I am.
55:28	K: That’s it. Are we concerned to help the student – and therefore ourselves – to understand the whole enormous, complex factors of existence of one’s life? Love, compassion, death, sorrow, pain, anxiety, grief, tears, laughter, which is not different from mine; you can’t say that’s different from you. Are we concerned with the whole of man’s existence or a little part? Would you answer this, sirs?
56:18	RT: A child at the age of five or eight years old, is that child capable of perceiving the whole thing?
56:26	K: I don’t know. First, I want to be clear before I tackle the child. I’m asking, as an educator, am I concerned with the enormous beauty and the greatness and the struggle, the pain, all that, or am I concerned with just a little... a tiny little part of life?
56:55	Please answer, sir; go on, it’s your job.
57:15	(Pause) Such a person is a teacher who is concerned with the whole and therefore it’s the greatest profession in the world; not the minister and the Prime Minister and some crooked...
57:34	because he’s concerned with that and therefore he’s helping to bring about a new generation of people. I would call that person worthy of being a teacher. Right? Are we? Sir, answer...
57:55	Come on, sir; how am I to...? You’re a teacher?
58:01	Sh: Yes.
58:03	K: Are you?
58:04	Sh: Yes, I am concerned.
58:08	K: What do you mean concerned?
58:10	Sh: I feel death, I feel pain, I feel sorrow.
58:14	K: No. You’re concerned not merely with your particular subject...?
58:21	Sh: No, with the whole...
58:23	K: Wait lady, wait. Are you concerned with the whole?
58:26	Sh: Yes.
58:27	K: If you are, how are you going to help the student to understand the whole and not just a little part? This is your job, sir; come on. How are you going to help him? Knowing his parents, his grandparents, are only concerned for him to pass exams, get a job. Right? So what am I to do?
59:14	(Pause) Will you tell me, sirs? You are educators, will you tell me what am I to do?
59:30	RD: Firstly, because I’m concerned about the whole, I will not impose a part on the child.
59:45	K: Yes sir, don’t... First feel the importance, the tremendous responsibility you have if you feel this – you understand? – if you feel that you are concerned with the whole of life, including the little part, and you are totally responsible for it. When there is this extraordinary sense of total responsibility, then what is your relationship with the student?
1:00:33	Q: Concern.
1:00:35	K: No madame, you... (Laughs) You haven’t understood my question. Forgive me. What is your relationship with your student when you feel that you’re totally responsible for him? Totally, not academically.
1:01:10	(Pause) What’s your relationship? All right, sir. I feel this way: totally, completely responsible; not in front of you, this is my life. I feel this all the time. What is my relationship to you?
1:01:40	(Pause) If you are my students – you’re not – if you are, what’s my relationship to you?
1:01:57	Pa: Pure brotherly relationship.
1:02:04	K: Oh... I don’t know what you mean by brotherly; brothers hate each other...
1:02:11	(Laughter) quarrel with each other.
1:02:13	Pa: That is not the relationship.
1:02:14	K: That’s a fact, sir.
1:02:17	GN: Do you mean there’s a great deal of affection?
1:02:23	Pa: Ah yes...
1:02:24	RD: Sir, you and the student are the same in this relationship.
1:02:27	K: No. You’re going to find out, sir; don’t... What...
1:02:30	RD: I’m saying something is happening, sir.
1:02:32	K: No. What do you mean by that: same?
1:02:34	RD: By same, I mean that you are both together in this journey.
1:02:40	K: Which means what?
1:02:44	RD: Which means... (Pause) the teacher does not know.
1:02:56	K: No sir, no sir. Oh yes, he knows.
1:02:59	RD: No, he knows the subject; that’s different, that is very different.
1:03:02	K: Wait. So what is your relationship when you feel you are concerned with the whole of life? You are concerned with that and the student is not. He is conditioned to pass exams, get a job and all the rest of it. Right? So what is your relationship to him? You feel, very strongly, one thing and the other chap doesn’t. Right? Can there be a relationship between you two? You would like it, but is there actually?
1:03:50	RD: Not till he sees the same thing.
1:03:53	K: Of course; so there is no relationship. Why don’t you face these things? Is there any relationship between you and me now? (Laughs) You may listen, you may say, ‘Marvellous,’ and all the rest of the bilge, nonsense, but is there actually any relationship when if you are only concerned with that? But if you’re concerned with the whole of it, then we can both if us enter into the same field. Right?
1:04:30	So my function as a teacher who is concerned with the totality of life, which is the wholeness of life, which means both physical, moral, ethical – if I can use the word spiritual without degenerating that word – and all that, then my responsibility is to help the...
1:05:02	to bring about an understanding in him of the importance of the whole of life. So I have to find a way of communicating to him. Right? Now, will you do it? (Laughs) Q: Then what is your relationship, teacher-student relationship?
1:05:29	K: Have you any relationship now with the student, if you are really honest?
1:05:36	Ka: There is a great deal of affection.
1:05:42	K: Great deal. What do you mean by that?
1:05:44	Ka: I feel very strongly for him.
1:05:47	K: For what? For what? Just let’s be clear, sir. For what? For him?
1:05:51	Ka: For him, as a person.
1:05:53	K: Sir, forgive me, what do you mean by that?
1:05:57	Ka: I want to see that the child does not grow up into all sorts of deformities.
1:06:06	K: How will you prevent that happening?
1:06:13	Ka: I cannot prevent it happening, I can only see that in my relationship with the student, I don’t make it happen.
1:06:26	K: Yes sir, but how will you prevent it, all the same? How will you prevent a boy throwing himself down a precipice? It’s your responsibility. How will you prevent a boy or a girl not to enter this monstrous world? That’s your responsibility. You may have tremendous affection, you may have great care, consideration and all the rest of it, but you have to do something.
1:07:06	Ka: Yes, and if there is the great care, one is doing it in the school.
1:07:10	K: I am asking you, sir. I am your student, you are my teacher. You are wholly concerned not only with the little part, but with the extraordinary life with all its complexity.
1:07:27	How will you help me to understand that and live that, not just talk, talk, talk. That’s the function of an educator, isn’t it? What will you do with me? I’m your student; tell me.
1:07:49	Ka: If you are my student, I’ll first see to it that I do not put a lot of pressure on you.
1:07:54	K: All right.
1:07:57	Ka: Academic pressure. I do not make you...
1:08:00	K: But he has to learn... Sir, he has to have knowledge, academic knowledge.
1:08:06	Ka: Knowledge, but it does not come through pressure. The boy will not learn when there is a great deal of pressure on him.
1:08:14	K: Pressure; though you will say, ‘Look here, Old Boy, let’s study, let’s learn.’ Ka: Yes, and learning where the curiosity is.
1:08:23	K: Wait sir; no... When you say, ‘No pressure,’ he will go off and do something else.
1:08:28	Ka: Oh, then I will tell him, ‘Look...’ If he is all the time being distracted, if he is all the time going away, that is part of my responsibility...
1:08:38	K: So what will you do, what will you do?
1:08:40	Ka: Well, I have taken students who are always being distracted and asked them to sit in the corner quietly and do the work by themselves.
1:08:46	K: Oh no! No... (inaudible) (Laughter) Ka: That’s part of it.
1:08:49	K: No! That’s another pressure.
1:08:51	RD: Sir, I have to help him understand his distraction, sir.
1:08:59	K: You’re all so nuts, you are. (Laughs) What will you do with me, sir, as your student, will you put me in a corner?
1:09:13	Ka: I do not put him into a corner; I ask him, ‘Would you feel that you can work better if you’re not in the centre of the class, but if you go away, if you’re working by yourself, do you feel that you can do that?’ K: Why is he not paying attention to what you’re saying? That’s what you call distraction.
1:09:34	Ka: No sir; a child is enormously distracted by a number of things.
1:09:41	K: I know, sir; I know. I am your child; I am distracted by the wind, by the birds, by the leaf on... – you follow? – a dozen things. How will you prevent me from what you call distraction?
1:09:56	Ka: Well, I wouldn’t call the birds and the leaves...
1:10:01	K: You’re not facing the fact, sir. You said distractions.
1:10:08	Ka: What I meant by distraction is... You see – let me put it in my own words – I see the children, at least in our county, have come to a stage where they have been taught and taught and taught all the time, so that they absolutely do not grasp and learn on their own. That is...
1:10:38	K: I think this is more or less all over the world, sir.
1:10:41	Ka: They are very passive.
1:10:43	K: Yes. The other fellows are too active, they don’t even listen to you, they’re always off.
1:10:51	(Laughter) Go to America, go to England, you will see this; they’re not interested in what you are talking about. They are forced to learn, their arms are being twisted by the professor, the teacher and so on. So I’m asking you, you say they are distracted. If I may ask, why do you use that word distraction? Distracted from what?
1:11:19	Ka: From doing anything that...
1:11:22	K: No! Please sir. Distracted from what?
1:11:24	Ka: Sir, that’s what I’m trying to tell you. I do not mind if the child in the arithmetic class does not do arithmetic; that is not a distraction.
1:11:33	K: Sir, you are not... (Laughs) I am asking you what do you mean by that word distraction?
1:11:41	Distract from what? Sir, all of you sitting there quiet, please, join us. This isn’t a battle between him and me or between her and me; you’re all involved in it.
1:12:00	T.M. N: Sir, the perfect learning situation needs the child should concentrate on something, whatever he’s doing, either he could be looking at a flower or a tree or anything, he has to pay attention.
1:12:15	K: So don’t use the word distraction. I am objecting to that word distraction.
1:12:25	Ka: I don’t mind giving up that word.
1:12:30	K: Not you mind. For God’s sake, what childish... (Laughter) Ka: Attention. Does he not pay attention?
1:12:38	K: No, I... No, wait sir, please. The moment you use the word distraction and employing that word to the student, you’ve already made him — what? You are the teachers, tell me. When you use the word distraction, what have you... what is the result of that word on the student?
1:13:11	Q: You have conditioned him to listen.
1:13:15	K: Which means you want him to pay attention to one thing and if he doesn’t anything else is distraction.
1:13:25	Q: If he disturbs others, isn’t it...?
1:13:27	K: Wait, wait. Not others. Just follow this, madame; you go off into details so quickly.
1:13:36	When you use the word distraction, in that usage of that word there is the implication that there is a certain point from which you are moving away – right? – who has fixed that point?
1:13:54	Q: The teacher.
1:13:55	K: Oh, you people don’t even... And you talk about not having pressure.
1:14:05	Ka: You did not... (Laughs) I’m afraid you are maligning me. (Laughter) RD: Sir, I feel you’re not understanding what he’s saying.
1:14:17	K: Sir, if you can put away the word distraction altogether from our mind and our... there is only... What is it you want him to do: to pay attention – right? – so that he will listen? Right? Now, how will you help him to listen and help him to pay attention?
1:14:47	Beat him on the head, put him in a corner, give him marks? Which is what you are doing, sir. Don’t say, ‘No.’ Q: We are not doing it in our school, sir.
1:15:05	Q: We are not giving marks.
1:15:06	K: Aren’t you doing it in your school, sirs?
1:15:12	GN: Not that grossly. (Laughter) K: Come on, sir; for God’s sake...
1:15:22	Ka: We are not giving any marks in our schools, we are not saying that by the end of this time the child has to learn this or that.
1:15:32	RD: But Kabir, wouldn’t you say that all that you are doing still is not enough? Kabir, wouldn’t you say after all that you have done, still the problem remains, the question remains, the challenge remains? Are you satisfied with whatever we have done?
1:15:49	Ka: No. I feel that we... You see, the point is again, as he said, if I put a fixed point, then I am worried that the child is being distracted.
1:16:03	K: But further, sir...
1:16:05	RD: There are so many forms of it.
1:16:08	Ka: Precisely, I agree to that.
1:16:11	K: Further sir, how will you help him to pay attention, help him to listen to what you are saying? Not only you, to the universe, to the world, what the politicians with their nonsense are saying; how will you help him to listen, which means attention? Go on, sir, answer me; you are... Madame, Mrs Thomas, how will you do it?
1:16:47	Pa: You can understand the psychological problems or conflict going on in the student’s mind, then if you move closely with the student, then you can... by watching his movements and all that...
1:17:05	K: Sir... Look sir, you are teaching me yoga – you are not, but suppose you are teaching me yoga – and I’m looking out of the window while you’re talking. Right? What will you do with me?
1:17:24	Pa: Now, first I inquire myself whether I am conveying properly...
1:17:29	K: No, you have told me. You have told me, watched me, communicated carefully – I’m just taking all that for granted – and yet I am looking out of the window. What will you do with me?
1:17:44	Pa: Then I try to know why he is not interested.
1:17:51	K: No. (Laughs) What will you do with me at that moment?
1:17:57	Sh: Allow you to look, sir.
1:17:59	K: Now, what do you mean allow? (Laughter) Sh: Or let you.
1:18:03	K: No, you are all so blastedly traditional.
1:18:07	Ka: Do not interrupt.
1:18:08	Sh: Do not interrupt.
1:18:09	K: Have you finished? (Laughter) I am looking out of the window while he’s teaching me yoga. Wouldn’t you say, ‘Now, let’s forget your yoga, mathematics, all the rest, let’s both look at it, carefully’?
1:18:38	You will help me to look at the thing I am looking more intensely. Wouldn’t you? What are you interested in? You are interested, as an educator, to help me, the student, to be attentive. Right? Right? So I am attentive about the flower, about that bee that’s going along. So help me to look at it much more intensely, carefully, watch it. Right?
1:19:24	Because you have helped the student, me, to pay attention to that bee – right? – so you have taught me how to be attentive.
1:19:41	Ka: And when he’s bored, do I help him to look at the boredom?
1:19:50	K: Oh yes, or you have helped... Sir, you are missing my point. You have helped me to pay attention, which means you have altogether put aside distraction. Right?
1:20:09	RT: Sir, in practicality that is possible only when there are two people.
1:20:15	K: No, I’m going to show you. Wait, wait.
1:20:16	RT: Not when there are twenty-four in a class.
1:20:18	K: Get the principle right first.
1:20:21	RT: Yes, we do. We do that, but...
1:20:24	K: Get the root of attention.
1:20:25	RT: Yes sir.
1:20:26	K: No, the root; no madame, I don’t think you have... The root of attention, in which there is no distraction whatsoever. I look at the bee, it’s finished; then I look at something else, that’s finished – right? – and what has happened? Is that attention?
1:20:59	Moving from one thing...? Or is that...?
1:21:05	RT: A child’s span of attention is certainly very short.
1:21:11	K: Yes, that’s what I’m saying. It’s very short. He can’t sustain it – right?
1:21:18	– neither can you. You see, you are always, ‘Child and me.’ (Pause) So sir, the one act of attention is good enough. Right? Right? Do you...?
1:21:47	RD: Sir, will you just go into this a little more? When you say, ‘One act of attention is good enough,’ what do you mean?
1:22:01	K: To attend to something without contradiction. When I watch the microphone, all that intricate net, there is no distraction, is there? There is no saying, ‘I must not. I must. This is right, this is wrong. I should,’ none of that. I have learnt the art of attention, which is there is no struggle in it, there’s no conflict and there is no me attending.
1:22:44	Right? Is that...?
1:22:51	(Pause) That’s attention, isn’t it? That one act, if I have really grasped that, then when you tell me to pay attention to the book, I am there. But whereas, if you’re telling me all the time, ‘Don’t look out of the window; do this, do that,’ you are distracting me.
1:23:28	(Laughter) (Pause) So can I teach the student, because that is what is the most important – isn’t it? – to teach him how to attend; not what to learn, but how to... the nature of attention.
1:24:10	(Pause) Right sir? Can we do that? That’s your responsibility as a teacher.
1:24:33	Pa: In a classroom, one student is all right. There are twenty students...
1:24:42	K: That’s her question, yes. How am I, as an educator, with ten boys and girls who are all the time playing around, what am I to do; bearing in mind that all my concern is that they should learn attention? Right? Right sir? What shall I do with that ten of them in my class? What will you do? Come on, sir; that’s your challenge. What will you do?
1:25:24	I know what I would do but there’s no point my telling you what I would do. What would you do, sir? What would you do?
1:25:45	Q: Talk to children only to those who are interested in listening to you?
1:25:50	K: There are ten of them. Then if you only say, ‘Well, I’m going to pay attention to that boy or girl,’ the others will say, ‘All right, go ahead...’ (Laughter) No, you don’t... You see, it’s not a challenge to you. You understand what I mean by the word challenge? You have to answer it, not just say, ‘Well, tell me about it.’ TMN: Sir, there must be something or other which all the children are interested in.
1:26:29	K: I am not talking about interest. I’m asking... TMN: Which all of them are interested in paying attention to.
1:26:36	K: Sir, we have said, now, we know what we said about attention. Now, as a teacher – I am a teacher with ten students – how am I to convey to them all – not just one, two, but to them all – to learn attention? What shall I do?
1:26:59	Q: It’s a slow process, sir; we have to do it every day, keep on at it.
1:27:12	K: No, I object to doing it on every day. That becomes a routine, a job, and that’s a boredom. That’s why teachers get so bored. What shall I do? Face it.
1:27:28	(Pause) What sir?
1:27:31	RD: I don’t know, sir. (Laughter) K: Do you want me to tell you?
1:27:43	Q: Well, again, I will make it here and go to the classroom...
1:27:53	K: No, do you want me to tell you?
1:27:56	Q: Yes, definitely, I am interested, sir.
1:28:02	K: Why should I tell you? (Laughter) This is a challenge; you have to be creative, you have to find out. What will you do?
1:28:17	(Pause) I know what I would do. Do you want me to tell you? (Laughs) Come on, Rajesh, what would you do? Sir, what would you do, Mr Venkatraman? Put your brains to operate. What would you do? You have got this problem now – right? – with those ten children to whom you are teaching mathematics, and you want them – not the subject – you want them to learn attention.
1:29:08	Right? Right sir? Learn attention. What will you do?
1:29:12	RD: I’ll give this challenge priority in my life.
1:29:19	K: Now do it. I’m doing it. (Laughs) (Laughter) What will you do, Rajesh?
1:29:33	RD: Sir, you see, you can’t answer a question what you like, you can only say, ‘This is my challenge.’ K: No! This...
1:29:39	RD: How can I...? If I give you any ways, you will...
1:29:42	K: Oh yes, there is. Challenge... Look, look.
1:29:45	RD: The challenge response is itself in action.
1:29:47	K: Just listen. The challenge doesn’t wait.
1:29:50	RD: It doesn’t wait. It is acting.
1:29:52	K: And therefore, you have to reply. You say, ‘Wait, wait, challenge, until I get ready, then you ask me,’ then it’s not a challenge.
1:29:59	GN: What did you say, Miss Tolia? Tolia: I’ll tell them a story.
1:30:12	K: Oh no! (Laughter) RD: Sir, there is one other question also involved in this. I have frequently seen this when I am in this...
1:30:29	K: Rajesh, I’ve asked you a question, don’t go a lot of other things are involved in it... (inaudible) ...I’m asking you, as an educator, how will you teach those ten boys to attend?
1:30:41	RD: Sir, a frank answer I am giving: by wanting to find out how to attend myself. This is to me very, very important.
1:30:54	K: Yes, have you learnt that there is no distraction? It is a tremendous thing to learn that, sir; don’t fool yourself. You see, one’s mind is chattering endlessly and this chatter is part of our distraction, part of our life, everyday life, and then you say, ‘I mustn’t chatter,’ so you have already brought about a contradiction. Right? No? So where there’s contradiction, there is conflict, and the conflict then becomes another habit. Right sir? This is obvious. No? (Laughs) Right? I must talk to somebody. (Laughs) So what shall I do? As an educator, with ten children in front of me now – not tomorrow, they are there waiting for me – what shall I do?
1:32:28	Sh: I would take them for a walk. Surely they’d be interested in nature.
1:32:36	K: Yes, and then what?
1:32:39	Sh: And then show them beautiful things.
1:32:43	K: All right, take them out, but you’ve got to have a class.
1:32:48	Sh: That’s the class. It’s a form of a class.
1:32:51	K: All right, but lady, you have to teach mathematics. You can’t take them out for a walk when you want them to learn mathematics.
1:32:58	GN: You see, these... with very young children, the mathematics can wait, I think. (Laughter) But, again, one has to come to a state where you help them to pay attention and if you are not attentive, if I am not attentive, it’s going to be a bit difficult telling them to pay attention. That’s the first thing, I think.
1:33:21	K: Are you attentive? Do you know what attention is?
1:33:27	Sh: It’s difficult to answer that.
1:33:31	K: No, no. Don’t say difficult; after spending an hour, don’t say, ‘It’s difficult.’ GN: In a personality there’s a lot of day-dreaming, states of inattention, wooliness...
1:33:47	K: Daydream, but know that you are day-dreaming.
1:33:50	GN: Yes, but would you...? How does one...? You are not saying there is no distraction.
1:33:57	Are you saying that you can bring the same quality of attention to all these states of mind: day-dreaming, wooliness...?
1:34:05	K: No, there is only attention, sir, not bring attention to something.
1:34:12	GN: That’s right. If there is no attention?
1:34:14	K: Then find out does what attention mean, why you’re not attentive.
1:34:19	GN: So do I start with the fact that I am not attending, that I am not paying attention?
1:34:25	K: Start with that. Start with that: that you don’t know what attention is, but you know distractions. Because you know distractions – which implies that there is a point upon which you want to concentrate; that point of concentration is established by either desire, thought, a desire for... etc., etc., so you have fixed a point upon which you want to concentrate, everything else becomes a distraction. Right? Now, why have you fixed that point? Habit? Tradition? Desire? Or some desire for some enlightenment, God, all the rest of that stuff. So you have to say, why have I a concept, a belief, an opinion to which thought clings to and everything else is a distraction? You follow what I’m saying?
1:35:47	Why? Generally, it’s profitable financially, physically; it’s worthwhile, it gives me something. And the other, psychologically you fix a point because it gives me happiness – quotes ‘happiness’ – it gives me a sense of security and so on, so on, but when I have a fixed point, is that security? He comes along and knocks it down, or I resist it, so I’m afraid and so on. You’re tired, are you? What time...? You’re all tired?
1:36:31	You see, you haven’t answered my question. What will you do, as you’re going to meet them in half an hour or an hour, ten students, how will you help them to be attentive?
1:36:50	(Pause) Are you attentive now? You’re my students – apologies – you’re my students, I’m telling you something, are you attentive? Are you?
1:37:29	(Pause) Stuck. (Laughter) Which means you are not. And you are not, therefore you’re trying to convey something you are not to the student, and he says, ‘All right, all right, all right,’ he doesn’t pay attention to you. There, you’ve got the key, haven’t you? You are paying attention to me because I am very... I am – you follow? – I’m very clear; I don’t play a double game with myself. I say, ‘If I am not attentive, I want to know; I’ll go into it.’ (Pause) So when I have understood the meaning of attention and I see the great importance of it, the truth of that fact, then it is my life. It isn’t something I’ve imposed, I’ve learned, it’s my life. And when that is my life, it’s all simple. With those ten children, because I’m serious and I’m not playing the giddy goat, I’m not saying, ‘You are distracted, come back,’ and all that, I am attentive and there is a sense of stability.
1:39:18	Right? No?
1:39:19	Pa: Again, that’s a sort of force. Again, we are imposing something on the students.
1:39:27	K: Not in the least... I don’t think you and I are understanding each other, sir. I am not imposing a thing on him.
1:39:38	(Pause) Pa: A student wants to see a flower; if I am attentive, how can I help?
1:39:50	K: I say, ‘Look at the flower.’ Pa: Then, again, other students...
1:39:55	K: Yes, ‘Look at it.’ Pa: Each student has his own taste, his own interest.
1:40:00	K: Then look, look at it. Ten different boys: I say, ‘You’re looking at that flower, look at it. You are looking at that bee, look at it.’ I say, ‘Do look at something attentively.
1:40:11	Don’t bother about the class, about me here, but when you do look, look.’ Pa: Now, when we train them academically also, sir, is it possible in a classroom then?
1:40:27	K: Sir, academically, I’m not interested... at the moment.
1:40:33	Pa: No, because they have to face their exams...
1:40:36	K: Ah, wait, wait. I am not interested at the moment, I am only concerned that they should learn the art of the attention. That’s all; I’m not concerned about anything else.
1:40:47	If they understand that one thing, then I can... you know? Then it’s like a child’s play.
1:41:22	(Pause) It’s time, I know.
1:41:38	(Pause) What will you do, sir? You haven’t answered me.
1:41:44	Q: The answer is very simple, sir.
1:41:48	K: Yes sir?
1:41:51	Q: You can talk to the students and find out their difficulty. You can talk to the students and have a dialogue...
1:42:00	K: Yes. Will you?
1:42:05	Q: Yes sir.
1:42:06	K: (Laughs) Will you have a dialogue with the students? That means – listen, sir – you have established a relationship with the student in which you are not superior. That’s a dialogue; I said so at the beginning. I said a dialogue is a conversation between two people who are friendly, who are not superior, inferior, who are just two human beings talking over the... So will you treat that boy that way? No, don’t say, ‘Yes.’ You are the teacher.
1:42:48	You know. And he’s suspicious of you, and he says, (laughs) ‘You want something from me.’ Right? You don’t face all this.
1:43:08	(Pause) Why do you listen to me? Sir, that’s a question; I’m asking... why are you all listening to me?
1:43:24	Q: Because you are talking about the problems we face.
1:43:27	K: Why do you listen? Why don’t you listen to him? Why don’t you listen to your co-teacher?
1:43:45	(Pause) Because you say, ‘He doesn’t know, so what’s the good of talking to him, but perhaps he knows, therefore I’ll talk to him.’ Q: We feel that you may give an answer to our problems.
1:44:11	K: Why? Reputation? Books? Clever talk? Why do you listen to me? I’m asking this very seriously.
1:44:26	(Pause) I don’t think you listen to me.
1:44:41	(Pause) If you really listened, it’s finished. But you have your own ideas, your own opinions, your own saying, ‘This is right. Why should I... how shall I deal with the immediate, practical thing? He doesn’t tell me what to do...’ and so you‘re going on with all that. So you’re not listening. And that’s what is happening to the boy: he’s not listening.
1:45:19	As you don’t know – not you, madame, but... – how to listen, the boy doesn’t know how to listen. So the teacher begins with himself. Not that he retires to the Himalayas, but begins because he is like the student. Right? You may be older, you may know mathematics, but you are psychologically just like the student. Right?
1:46:00	You won’t listen and he won’t listen. Right? So how are you to make him listen, if you don’t know how to listen?
1:46:14	Sh: Learn how to listen.
1:46:23	K: Have you listened this morning?
1:46:27	Sh: Yes.
1:46:28	K: So have you learnt what it means to listen? (Laughs) Poor lady. I won’t put you in a corner. Sorry.
1:46:40	We continue tomorrow, don’t we? If you can tolerate it. I’m not fishing. You know what that is? Don’t say, ‘Oh yes, no, no, we want it,’ just say; if you don’t want it, it’s all right. Do you want to continue tomorrow?
1:47:02	GN: Yes.
1:47:03	K: All right. You will be here tomorrow?
1:47:06	Q: Yes.
1:47:07	K: Good. (Laughter)