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RV78DT3 - How will you, as educators, help the student to listen?
Rishi Valley, India - 3 December 1978
Discussion with Teachers 3



0:00 This is J. Krishnamurti’s third discussion with teachers at Rishi Valley, 1978.
0:09 Krishnamurti: We were talking about comparison, why human beings throughout the world compare themselves with somebody else. Having set an example, and then they try to imitate, copy, conform to that pattern. From childhood, we’re brought up to compare in schools, colleges, universities. It’s all the cultivation of measurement and whether, in a school of this kind, could we not dispense altogether with any sense of comparison: better marks and better examinations – you know, the whole set up? And we said, what is the cause, the root cause of comparison? Why we always measure our actions, our thoughts or our feelings against a standard set by the whole movement of thought. I don’t know if you are following all this. And having set an example, either externally or for ourselves, that standard or that principle or that idea which is essentially the action of thought – I hope you’re...
2:03 Am I going alright? – and then any movement away from that we call deviation. That is, one thought having established a certain conclusion, and any other thought away from that conclusion is a distraction. Right? I’m not trying to teach you, sir, but you know all this, perhaps.
2:46 And actually there is no distraction at all – that’s what we... – because one thought opposes another thought and the thought that is moving away from that which has been concluded, is considered deviation. So actually, there is no deviation. And we went also into the question of attention. Please correct me, if I’m not representing it accurately, what we talked about yesterday.
3:26 (Pause) Where was I? Attention. After all, a school is place where one learns – at least, limited to that time between school and the end of university – during those periods of ten years or eighteen years or twenty years there is the accumulation of knowledge and that’s called learning, and the rest of the whole existence of man is neglected. So can we consider the whole of existence, plus the little part, including the little part, and be educated to comprehend, not intellectually, but actually live our daily life, including the whole of life. That seems to me – subject to correction from all your... – that is the right kind of education. Not just academic training, a job, and the rest of it, marriage and the beginning... the whole misery of existence.
5:06 And is it possible to learn without compulsion, without coercion, without pressure, and you can only learn if you have the capacity to listen. And listening implies attention. Right sir? Right? Am I going along what we discussed yesterday? Attention. So if we bear in mind that there is no distraction, then whatever you are looking at – whether it’s a bird or a flower or a person – when you look, look completely. A boy or a girl in a class is not paying attention to what you’re saying, but he’s looking out of the window, help him to look out of the window at what he’s looking at with complete attention. You also look, so that the student or the girl or the boy learns the meaning of attention, in which there is no distraction. Right? And we came to yesterday: can we, in a class of ten, as educators help them to listen and in that very act of listening become aware what attention is? That’s where we left off, if we remember rightly. Isn’t that it? How is an educator in a class of ten...
7:25 (Break in audio) them to listen and so give total attention? That’s the problem we left yesterday. I don’t know whether the other people have thought about it, gone into it, or merely forgotten all about it.
7:47 George Narayan: In fact, we discussed last night, a few of us, especially from Bangalore.
8:00 You say there is no distraction at all.
8:03 K: Yes. That is tremendous... I don’t know if you understand that basic question.
8:09 GN: I think that needs a lot of clarification.
8:13 K: Yes.
8:14 GN: If you say there is no distraction at all, then every movement of thought could be a movement of attention.
8:19 K: Which means, that thought itself is a distraction. I don’t know... (Break in audio) GN: As we...
8:30 K: Have we understood this? When one thought comes to a conclusion, an idea or an ideal, a principle and any movement away from that is a distraction. That is, thought has established a principle, a point, and another thought moving away from it is called distraction.
9:15 Right? It is still the movement of thought. Right sir? So thought itself may be a distraction.
9:28 I don’t know if you can...
9:33 GN: From what you say, the point is itself crystallisation of thought...
9:40 K: That’s right.
9:41 GN: ...in a certain interest.
9:42 K: In a certain cadre, in a certain framework and so on.
9:45 GN: And you say this is the change we must do now.
9:47 K: Yes.
9:48 GN: And that itself is a crystallisation of thought, and in that there is no attention but a kind of concentration.
9:54 K: Yes.
9:55 GN: We can bring into being a state of attention which is not crystallisation of thought, at that point.
10:02 K: Quite right.
10:03 GN: If that is possible, then concentration and distraction doesn’t arise.
10:08 K: That’s right.
10:09 GN: But what happens is, in any situation, there is a crystallisation of thought as a focus of interest, and then you say... it becomes a thought form and you don’t want to move away of it, and if someone else moves from it, you say, ‘Now, come on; do this.’ K: Yes, quite right.
10:27 GN: Now, much of instruction is a crystallisation of a thought form. To some extent it is of the nature of concentration, though it could be the nature of attention. The difficulty for the normal teacher is: he only lives at the thought level and the crystallisation of thought as the focus of interest is what he’s concerned with, and if the student goes from it, he drags him back to that. He doesn’t understand a situation where there is no crystallisation of thought as a focus of interest and where there is the energy of attention.
11:13 K: Are we clear what we’re saying to each other? I’m not quite sure I understand what you are saying. I want to be... I’m not saying what you’re saying is not correct, but I want to know what you’re saying. I am a teacher in a school. I have got ten children.
11:36 My intention is friendly and all that – leave all that aside – my intention is that they should learn, not only the academic side but the whole of life, with all its confusion, uncertainty, insecurity, power, position, status, money, sex, all the complexities of existence. That’s my... I want them to understand this, because to me as an educator, I am the most important person in society – not the businessman, not the politician, not the professor – as a teacher, I’ve the greatest importance and therefore I have the greatest dignity, the greatest respect, because I’m preparing a new generation of people coming into the world. I regard that as something of supreme importance and therefore with it goes a great sense of dignity.
12:52 Now, how am I to convey to the students, ten of them, to learn? That’s my concern. I don’t want them to learn under pressure, then that’s no learning at all. I don’t want them to learn in terms of punishment or reward. Right? I don’t want to force them to learn, I want them to learn happily, which means there must be a quality of attention in which there is no sense of saying, ‘Don’t be distracted.’ That’s my whole concern.
13:50 How am I to do that? That is the principle or the framework or the cadre in which I work.
13:59 I don’t know if you’re interested in this, as teachers. Won’t we discuss this, sir?
14:13 Is that your interest? (Laughs) I’ll help him to pass an examination, if he must, at the end of five years, six years, or whatever it is, but I’m not concerned with that.
14:30 I’m only concerned, most deeply and with complete responsibility, that he should have a good academic training and understand his life, and not be caught in a trap of society, all that. So that’s my urge, my interest, my concern, my affection, my care for the student. Now, how am I to carry this out? Right? Come on, sirs, discuss; this is a dialogue.
15:23 I’m not talking to myself, I’m talking to you; we are investigating together the problem: what are we as educators to do, given this: that they must have excellent academic training and also excel in the way of living? How would you do it? What will you do?
16:02 (Pause) After all, this is a challenge. Probably, most teachers haven’t this kind of challenge.
16:28 We are offering you a challenge, how do you respond to it?
16:41 M. Venkatraman: First, I’ll see to it that he doesn’t waste much of energy in the learning of, say, mathematics.
17:00 K: Ah no. No. Sir, forgive me interrupting you. Not a subject; I want, I desire, I wish or I care that he should have the art of learning, not a subject – I don’t know if I’m conveying this – not mathematics, geography or biology or this or that, but the capacity to learn. Let us investigate a little bit; what is the capacity to learn? What does it mean to learn? Not mathematics — to learn. I don’t if I’m...
17:50 Mrs Thomas: Curiosity.
17:51 K: Yes.
17:52 Q: Openness of some sort. Tolia: To be aware of the whole movement of life.
18:09 K: No sir; no, no, no. You are missing my point. To learn, sir.
18:17 Jayaprakash: I think it’s just to understand, sir; to comprehend, to understand everything.
18:27 K: Sir, if I may point out, I want you to learn.
18:31 J: That is, to understand.
18:34 K: No, no; just a minute. Learn. It may be to understand but I want... Say, for instance, I’m your teacher – forgive me, I’m not your teacher but I’m just saying I’m your teacher, for the time being – I want you to learn and you say to me, ‘What do you mean by learning?’ You are quite right; you say, ‘What do you mean by learning?’ What is the act of learning?
19:09 T: To be open.
19:17 Kathy: Listening.
19:20 K: Listen. Yes, all right, you say, ‘Listen.’ What do you mean by listening?
19:33 T: Passive awareness?
19:35 K: Oh no, you’re caught in what... Forget what I have said, sir, for God’s sake. No, you’re not paying attention. You are just quoting some idiot, and it becomes idiocy if you quote.
19:51 Pattabhiram: I think we must make our mind empty first, without any prejudice or anything, then you must listen that... and then if you think about that one, that is one way of learning, I think. Without any prejudice or any of our own opinions, if you listen carefully, then if you think about that one...
20:12 K: Which means what? That you listen.
20:14 Pa: Yes, what you are saying.
20:17 K: No, listen. Right? Not what I am saying, but to listen to the birds, to the trees, to the river, to the winds – you follow? – to listen.
20:26 M. V. Prasad: There is no exclusion in that.
20:30 K: Yes. Are you doing that now? (Laughs) Are you actually, when you say, ‘There is nothing excluded,’ that you are actually listening? Are you? Or you have all kinds of activity going on while you are listening?
21:02 (Pause) So how will you, as educators, help the student to listen? I believe if you can help him to listen, you have done everything. How will you, as educators, and how shall we help the student to listen? Go on, sir, please tell me. (Laughs) S. Natarajan: Sir, can you listen when you’re thinking? Because most of the time we think.
21:57 K: So what are you...? You can’t listen if you are thinking. Are you saying this?
22:05 SN: Yes.
22:07 K: Are you doing it?
22:09 SN: Yes.
22:10 K: No sir; just wait a minute. Just go slowly. Is this a theory or an actual fact?
22:15 SN: Actual fact.
22:16 K: That is, when you are listening to this man, are you not thinking?
22:25 SN: I’m not able to stop my thinking.
22:29 K: Ah! (Laughter) You see, you’ve become immediately theoretical. When you say the art of learning is to listen, and to listen your mind must have this total attention. Have you go that?
23:02 Have you, when you listen to that noise of the washmen, are you listening completely?
23:15 Leila Rau: Thoughts come in, sir.
23:22 K: So how will you prevent thought coming in? You follow? See the complexity of the problem, not just say, ‘Well, I listen.’ (Pause) You see, for example, this person says, ‘There is no distraction.’ Do you listen to that?
24:07 Not say, ‘Well, what do you mean by it? Of course, there is distractions.’ You follow? The moment you hear a statement with which you’re not familiar, immediately you have reactions going one after the other. Right sir? Can you listen without reaction? Just listen? If you can’t listen, how are you going to help the student to listen?
24:42 (Pause) After all, listening is like a seed planted in the earth. Then the very seed begins to grow, flower, but we don’t let a statement either false or true enter through the ears and so on, with the hearing of the ear, but we’re always blocking it. I don’t know if you are following what I’m saying. So my concern is, as an educator, how am I going to help the student to listen? Go on, answer it, sir.
25:40 LR: Sir, may I ask you a question?
25:42 K: Delighted.
25:43 LR: It’s all right when you talk about generality but when we are teaching a subject where thought is connected...
25:50 K: Wait, I’m coming to that. What do you want him to do? You are teaching him a subject – right? – and you want him to listen; how will you help him to listen so that he understands... he catches what you’re saying instantly?
26:10 LR: No, I mean, listening then means free of thought.
26:17 K: No! Just a minute. You are teaching history or mathematics or whatever it is.
26:23 LR: History, and history is a subject where thought is connected.
26:25 K: Yes. Now, how will you help him to listen to what you’re saying? To what you are saying.
26:33 Because he’s looking somewhere else, he is not interested, he’s bored, he’s pulling somebody’s hair, kicking somebody under the table and so on, so on, so on. How will you help him to listen? If he can listen to you, the problem is finished, isn’t it?
27:00 No?
27:01 LR: Yes, it is.
27:03 K: Right? So how will help him to listen?
27:08 Pa: But each student is different.
27:11 K: There are ten of them; I said ten of them in the class.
27:14 Pa: Yes sir. Their interests are different.
27:17 K: I know, sir.
27:18 Pa: So, at a time, it is not possible to make them...
27:22 K: I wonder. Don’t say it is not possible, let us find out. (Laughs) Pa: Ten students there are different, their interests are different, their views are different...
27:31 K: Yes, I know all that. I know all that, but there may be a way of helping them all to listen.
27:41 Pa: Now, when I am not interested in history, how can I listen?
27:45 K: I’m going to find out. (Laughs) I’m going to find out why you’re not... Sir, I am... You see, you are not getting the principle of it. I want – not I want – it is essential the students listen. Right? In my class there are ten students with contradictory... all the rest of it. How am I going to help those students to listen? That’s your problem.
28:16 What will you do? (Pause) T: Well sir, listening without assimilation or without the movement of thought or connection of thought becomes purely physical, isn’t it?
28:36 K: Sir, I asked you... You see, you are going off to accumulation of thought, accumulation of knowledge. I am asking you how will you help them to listen?
28:48 (Pause) Rajesh? Come on, sir.
28:57 R. Thomas: Is it by showing the right relationship of that particular subject or principle that you are saying, with everything that is around?
29:19 K: (Laughs) You see? I am not concerned with subjects, for the moment. I want him to learn the art of listening. What am I to do?
29:34 Q: Is attention something that has to take place by itself or can it be brought about?
29:44 K: You’re not answering my question, sir.
29:46 Q: Sir, which was that?
29:52 K: I want you to listen. You. Will you listen? Will you listen to the statement – which may be false or true – that education is the whole study of the nature and the structure of human existence? Now, have you listened to that? Have you? What does that mean, that you have listened? Have you listened to the words and the meaning of the words and therefore you say, ‘Yes, I have listened’? Or have you listened to the content? You understand?
31:10 I wonder if I’m making something clear?
31:23 (Pause) You see, it’s like this: you have a general map of India, say, or Europe, and if you have a direction and you’re going to a particular town or a village, you don’t see the whole map – right? – because you’re only concerned from here to there. So you neglect to observe the whole stretch of the map. Right? And, in the same way, can you listen without direction to see the whole map, which is to see at one glance the whole movement of life? You understand what I’m saying? Which means you have to listen, not to what I am saying, to your own whole existence. I wonder if I’m making it clear. Your sorrows, your pleasures, your sex, your ambitions, your greed, envy, suffering, pain, anxiety, uncertainty, instability, wanting more, wanting this... – you follow? – the whole of that — see it all at one blow, as it were. That is the art of listening. Listening when the man says, ‘The academic life is necessary, but the whole of existence has to be studied, learnt.’ You understand?
33:34 This probably is a little bit too abstract. T. K. K. Nair: Sir, maybe the difficulty comes because we go to the classroom primarily as subject teachers and, at least for the time being, we forget ourselves as human beings.
33:52 We may not be at that moment...
33:54 K: Cut it out, the human being; let’s cut out. TKK: We primarily think of ourselves as subject teachers...
34:00 K: Yes. TKK: ...and we go there with a specific aim in our minds.
34:04 K: I understand. TKK: So that probably prevents us from...
34:08 K: Now, wait a minute; let us take that. I want to teach history. Right? My concern is that they must learn. Right? The capacity to learn, not my history, but I want them to have the quality of learning. Right sir?
34:36 TKK: Yes.
34:38 K: Now, I want to teach history, I want them not only to know the Indian history but the history of mankind. Right? Because mankind is the student, mankind is the teacher – right?
35:06 – so history is the story of man – right sir? – and the story of man is the story of me and the story of the student. Right? Right? Are we...? Now, how am I going to help him not only to learn the history of India – always coloured, always prejudiced, always one-sided and all history, as you know, is the history of... what? Prejudice?
35:40 TKK: Prejudice.
35:41 K: Good. (Laughs) So how am I going to teach him not only this particular Indian history, but the history of man? That’s my concern. Right sir? What shall I do?
36:05 (Pause) History of man, the story of man. Right? So I would say, ‘Look, we are going to discuss history, which means I’m going to discuss you and me.’ Right? Would you agree to that?
36:28 Discuss, have a dialogue about you and about me. Then he... – you follow? – wouldn’t he be interested in it? No? Why do you sit that way? Why do you think that way? What are your reactions? You follow? No? Then, from there, move to the potty little Indian history. I don’t know if you are capturing what I’m saying. Right? Will you do that?
37:13 LR: We have been doing that for some time now. We have been experimenting on this for quite some time.
37:23 K: Good. And equally, mathematics.
37:25 Q: The calculus, too, the same way?
37:28 K: Yes, why not? Everything. Mathematics is sequence, which means order. Right? So I would say, ‘Look, what is order? Forget mathematics. Is your room in order? Are you in order? What does order mean?’ I’d go in... You follow?
37:57 So my intention is that he should learn. So what is learning? Is it academic accumulation of knowledge? If it is, and if that is the only things with which we are concerned, then I ask you what is knowledge? Why do you want knowledge – about mathematics, history, geography and all the blasted stuff – why do you want it? And why do you accumulate knowledge? It may be about the Vedas, Upanishads, blah, all the rest of it, but it’s still knowledge. So what is knowledge, which is so praised, which is so respected, which is so – you know? – elevated to a great status and all the rest of it? ‘A man of great learning.’ Blah, I call it: doesn’t matter. What is...? Come on, sirs, you all...
39:32 Q: Relating oneself to the total pattern of the universe.
39:39 K: What does that...? I said knowledge, madame. I have learnt about engineering, about pressure, strain, the whole business of mathematics and engineering; in a school, college, why do I learn that?
40:11 Q: I think it’s if we don’t learn like that, we don’t get jobs; so again survival, how to survive.
40:20 K: That’s all. Quite right, sir. I’m coming... That’s all. Knowledge is used skillfully or unskillful to acquire a job. That’s all. Right? Is that all knowledge?
40:37 Q: That is not the knowledge...
40:39 K: Wait. Keep to that, sir. First... (laughs). If that is knowledge, why do we give such tremendous importance to it?
40:51 Q: No, we don’t... (inaudible) Again, it is a question of survival energies and so...
40:58 K: So a question of... not survival.
41:03 Q: How to lead a life...
41:06 K: No!
41:07 Q: ...again in the society, that is the problem.
41:12 K: Please sir. I become a professor – God forbid; I become a professor – because I have learnt, I’ve studied, I have accumulated a tremendous lot of knowledge and with that professorship goes a lot of money, prestige, I am an authority. Right? So knowledge is used for status. No? So I say to myself, what is knowledge? Is that knowledge only about cars, how to drive a car, how to ride and so on, so on, so on. Is there any other kind of knowledge? And why has man given such terrific importance to that? Only because he gets more money? How to live?
42:21 Q: No, without security, how can he, again... (inaudible)? Security is also...
42:30 K: Security is necessary. So... Whose security?
42:36 Q: Again, next meal.
42:40 K: Security of man.
42:43 Q: Yes.
42:45 K: But if I use that knowledge to become a... to achieve a status, what has happened? And somebody else is better than me and becomes greater status, I feel insecure. This is all a childish game, what are we all playing with? So I’m asking you, sirs, you are teaching the children, the student, to acquire academic knowledge in order to get a job. Right? No?
43:30 T. M. Narasimhan: Not necessarily. I think there is something beautiful, either about physics, mathematics or biology. I don’t know, I can’t explain but it’s absolutely beautiful to know something in detail about physics or mathematics.
43:45 K: There is beauty, sir – we won’t go into the word beauty. What do you mean by beauty?
43:52 TMN: It’s something... I don’t know, I can’t explain.
43:53 K: Ah yes. Oh, you can’t just skip... (laughs) Q: The pattern in the nature.
44:00 K: I’m asking what is beauty.
44:04 Q: The pattern of nature.
44:09 K: When you see that flower and you look at it and say, ‘How beautiful it is,’ what do you mean by that word beauty?
44:21 RT: The colour, the symmetry.
44:24 K: Yes, go on.
44:27 RT: The unfolding of the flower.
44:31 K: Yes, there it is. Yes.
44:32 RT: All these go into it.
44:33 K: What does that flower say to you or what does that flower mean to you? Can you look at it – which is the appreciation of beauty – without your emotional projection about it, without you being the centre who is the observer?
45:04 TMN: It just happens, sir; suppose you are reading a particular passage in physics or mathematics, it could be even nature, just you are looking at a sunset, you just feel part of it. You don’t think, you are not...
45:18 K: No sir, I am asking what is beauty. That’s quite a complex problem, sir. Before you say, ‘There is beauty in physics and history and physiognomy and so on, I’m asking to myself – before I use that word – what do I mean by that word, and when do I really see beauty? When is there beauty?
45:50 Q: When you are one with that particular thing. Without any other thinking, sir. If you are one with that one, then we are... (inaudible) K: Which means what? You made a statement, ‘When there is no thinking.’ Q: Yes. Just observing.
46:13 K: Wait. You are... (laughs) ‘When there is no thinking.’ When does that take place?
46:20 RT: When it creates in you a sense of wonder and pleasure.
46:27 K: Ah. When you look at a mountain, the grandeur, the greatness, the depth, the solidity, the extraordinary sense of majesty of it, it drives away your self, doesn’t it? Drives away your thoughts, your problems, your... The wonder of it pushes you... Right? Then there is some immediate perception of something which you call beauty, that is, the external thing has driven all your personal issues. That is, like a child with a toy, the toy is so interesting he forgets to be naughty, but remove the toy, he becomes naughty. Right?
47:26 So in the same way, can you look at something without any movement of thought? This leads to quite a different issue, I won’t go into all that now.
47:51 So we are asking, what am I to do as an educator to help the student, there are ten of them in my class – please, discuss with me; it’s no good... – I want them to listen, because I’m going to teach them, I’m going to tell them about history, the facts and non-facts, the truth and the non-truth in history. I want to teach them, I want to help them, I want to help them to learn; that’s my intention. So I want to capture all their interest, all their attention – not one boy pays attention, the other doesn’t – I want them all to pay attention – right? No? – what am I to do? Come on, sirs, you’re a teacher.
48:51 LR: As an educator, and when my whole idea is to catch their attention to teach, can I do it without knowledge of history?
49:07 Q: Of course.
49:08 K: I am a teacher of history, I have acquired knowledge about history...
49:13 LR: Yes, your knowledge is necessary.
49:15 K: I know, I’m going to... But first I want all of them to pay attention to me, the ten of them.
49:24 RT: That is possible when you put whatever you are saying to them in the correct perspective in relation to everything else around, not just state facts.
49:37 K: You and I are not meeting each other.
49:40 LR: No, what I mean to say is can I communicate this holistic attitude of life, without myself having acquired the knowledge of history? Can I be an educator...?
49:54 K: No. Of course, not.
49:55 LR: I cannot, isn’t it? So knowledge is necessary for the educator to see life as a whole. No?
50:02 K: Oh, good Lordy.
50:05 GN: Knowledge is necessary, for you to communicate history; because you have knowledge of history, it doesn’t necessarily mean that you have a holistic perception.
50:14 RT: So you put that knowledge in the correct perspective, in relation to everything else.
50:16 GN: How do you do that if you don’t have a sense of wholeness, if you’re not able to help the student listen, without the medium of history?
50:24 LR: He will listen to you only if do that.
50:31 GN: That is when you are relating the subject, but now we are not thinking in terms of the subject, to start with. Supposing you don’t have to teach history or mathematics, can you help them to pay attention? You don’t teach mathematics, history for... (inaudible) let us say, you talk about different things and you want them to pay attention; you are not bringing your knowledge of history and mathematics. But you can help them to pay attention when you’re talking about some things which are very vital, related to your own existence, your life. You’re talking about it, let us say.
51:02 RT: You can do that even by talking about... giving knowledge of history or mathematics, can’t you?
51:07 GN: Probably, you can if you’re able to relate the part to the whole; but acquisition of knowledge does not necessary mean always he is not. You think you have become a specialist, you are talking about history in a very specialised way, and you are blind to the vital facts of living. And the boys are saying that; they say each one has his own pet subject and you say, ‘You work hard at my subject, it’s very important.’ I’m not saying mathematics is not important, everything is important, but I think knowledge has a peculiar influence on you, it limits you, unless you have the... what you are saying, holistic perception.
52:00 Whatever...
52:01 RD: I think however integrated knowledge you give, the quality of the mind in the awakening of intelligence is very different from transference of a very integrated knowledge, in relationship to the world and all... you can put whatever you like in it.
52:15 Q: If there is no order outside the classroom and if there is no learning outside the class room, it is not possible to bring about this quality of learning within the class.
52:32 Pupul Jayakar: Sir, the real point you raised right at the beginning: what is the place of distraction? This weightage which you give between the knowledge you want to convey and the desire of the child to look at the tree – there’s a weightage you give as one being more important than the other, and therefore one becoming a distraction – that is the divisive, fragmentary process. This weightage which we give in the mind to knowledge which you want to convey and the desire of the child to look out at the tree.
53:09 K: Of course.
53:10 PJ: Now, the problem is: the educator when he is communicating to the child, the child looks out at the tree, in what way can you complete that looking – which is the act of attention being born – which then is communicated to the acquisition of knowledge?
53:38 K: That’s what we say, yes.
53:42 PJ: Isn’t it really whether the teacher himself – or the individual himself – has this discriminatory process of operating in him of the bigger, the lesser, the more important?
53:55 K: We went into that — measurement.
53:57 PJ: And it is that which is the crucial thing; it’s not that knowledge is not important.
54:06 K: Could we stick to what – if I may point out, most respectfully and all the rest of it – aren’t we moving away [from] what we were talking about, which is, there are ten students in front of me, each with his own interest, with his own conditioning, with his own peculiarities and habits and so on, and I want to teach them history. I want to teach them so that they listen to me, all of them at the same time, because I’m only there for an hour, or forty minutes or whatever it is, I want them to listen. What am I to do? All of them to listen, not one boy who is interested in history. And I have no sense of distraction.
55:12 (Pause) History may be also a distraction, so – please believe me – personally, I have no sense of distraction.
55:27 TKK: I think, sir, that is the important point. I’m so full of this history that... I may be so full of this history I want to talk to them about it. I have some specific aim in my mind. Won’t that aim itself come as a source of distraction? Won’t that itself act, sir, as a kind of distraction?
55:46 K: Don’t push it too far, sir. Just a minute. I want to be clear on this point. I want to teach them history, Indian history and world history, and I want them to listen to me, all of them at the same time. What am I too do? Stick to that one thing; let’s work it out. I want them to have knowledge about Indian history, which is the story of man.
56:20 I have that, in my background is... in my thinking, the story of man, not Indian man, not the Russian man or the American or the Swiss or Chinese — man. So the story of man is him and me, and he must have the knowledge of Indian history. God knows why, but he must have it. So what am I to do? What am I to do, sir, tell me?
57:04 T: I begin from wherever we are; wherever the student is, I begin with that.
57:12 K: What do you mean, wherever he is?
57:14 T: In his thought...
57:16 K: No. Sir, you are not... Please sir, I want them all to listen – you don’t... you haven’t understood my... – including all of them, not one boy who is interested in history, but there are ten boys and girls in front of me, I want them all to listen to what I have to say. What shall I do, Mr Kabir? That’s your name, sir, isn’t it?
57:48 Kabir: I would, perhaps, first listen to everything and then come back to history, in a smooth process.
58:09 K: Come on, sir. Maybe... Go on, sir; it’s your problem, sir. Mr Venkatraman and Mr (inaudible)...
58:20 and so on, I don’t know. What am I do, sir? Don’t look at me. (Laughs) You see, it is not a problem to you; it’s not something that you’ve got to resolve.
58:35 Q: You have said something... (inaudible) ...you have said, ‘I am not distracted.’ K: No, I have no sense of distraction in me. Not, ‘You are not,’ but personally I have no sense of distraction.
58:54 (Pause) Tell me what am I to do with those ten boys and girls. Come on, sir.
59:07 LR: The history of man, if I could tell them that it is the history of you and me, the child and myself, if we could connect it that way...
59:35 K: Do it! I’m here now. No, I’m your student, madame. Stick to it.
59:40 LR: The history of yourself and mine, our passions, our feelings, our loves, our joys, our sorrows...
59:45 K: You are going off...
59:47 LR: ...all that will mean the history of what has happened in the past, if you could see that as a whole.
1:00:01 K: Will you capture their interest, all of them?
1:00:06 Ka: I feel that in our attempt not to pressurise the child into learning, we very often try to cajole him into learning, which is I think equally...
1:00:24 K: Of course, of course.
1:00:25 Ka: That’s all what we are trying to do, all the while, trying to cajole him into being interested, trying to put a candy in front of him and say, ‘Look, this is so nice, why are you not interested?’ That is a tremendous...
1:00:40 K: Sir, Mr Kabir, there are forty of us here or fifty of us here, all different prejudices and demands and all the rest of it. Right? Now, will you all listen to what...? Suppose I am your teacher, you’re all my students, I say something and will you all... do you all listen, altogether, not you listen and then I say, ’Well, go to hell’? Do you all listen that way?
1:01:26 Ka: Can we say what we do?
1:01:31 LR: No, I don’t think so.
1:01:35 K: Quite right. There you are. Chandramouli: I don’t know, sir. Because I don’t think so, I don’t know.
1:01:41 K: What do you mean, you don’t know?
1:01:43 Ch: There may be a listening going on.
1:01:47 K: No, no, I am asking you, Chandramouli, there are fifty of us, are you all listening to this man who is talking? Listening to what he has to say? No, you don’t, therefore, you don’t expect those ten to do it.
1:02:12 (Pause) M. V. Prasad: Sir, the problem is the teacher is not listening, and he goes into the class with an expectation of covering a chunk or portion within forty minutes.
1:02:29 K: Yes sir. MVP: He doesn’t realise that if there is attention for even ten minutes out of the forty minutes...
1:02:37 K: Good enough. MVP: ...that’s good enough. He aims at forty minutes of attention or concentration or whatever it is and, if there is a new car passing the way or the old tractor passing that way...
1:02:49 K: Yes sir, they all look out. MVP: ...or clouds gather and it starts raining, he doesn’t look out, he doesn’t allow the children to look out, so he’s all the time concerned with covering something. I think that’s a very big impediment, sir.
1:03:02 K: Sir, you said something: if they give ten minutes’ attention that’s good enough, during those forty minutes.
1:03:10 MVP: Yes sir, sure.
1:03:11 K: Now, wait a minute, sir; just hold it. What shall I do with the rest of the thirty minutes? No, this is important; don’t miss my point. I know if they can give ten minutes of their complete attention, if you can give ten minutes – you, sitting in front; ten minutes of complete attention – it is finished. Now, what will you do the rest of the thirty minutes? Which is an important as the ten minutes? Right? What will you do? You don’t...
1:04:13 you can’t see it. Because you’re still thinking in terms of distraction. Right sir?
1:04:29 I said I have, personally, no distraction. Therefore forty minutes – you understand?
1:04:43 – there is no distraction in forty minutes. No, you won’t understand this. Now, come back: what shall I do with those ten boys and I am teaching history? They must know history – it’ll help them to live... get a livelihood and all the rest of it; I know all that – but my concern is also that all of them should pay attention to what I’m saying. What shall I do, sir?
1:05:15 MVP: Not to what you’re saying, sir, all of us must pay attention.
1:05:16 K: Do it, sir. Do it!
1:05:23 MVP: When the teacher says, ‘to what I am saying,’ the problem comes.
1:05:33 K: No! I am a history teacher, you employed me for that purpose. Don’t just throw me out that way. You are paying me for that.
1:05:42 MVP: Why must they pay attention to what I am saying only?
1:05:46 K: No sir, I am asking... (laughs) You are all... What am I to do with those ten boys, girls, to whom I am teaching the subject called history? I want them to pay attention, even for ten minutes.
1:06:06 Q: If I know those ten students personally, their attitudes, their behaviour, then I can think and then I can come to a common platform where I can put my ideas and then if I can connect that to the students, then...
1:06:22 K: Now, what is the common interest among all those ten...?
1:06:24 Q: No, then if we know those ten students personally...
1:06:27 K: Wait! What is the common interest of all of you? Don’t say the students, here you are in front of them. What’s the common interest in all of you?
1:06:35 Q: Begin educating the students.
1:06:38 K: (Laughs) GN: Forget the students.
1:06:40 Q: Ourselves.
1:06:41 K: My God, how we move away to the poor students all the time. What’s our common interest?
1:06:54 What is the common interest of all those ten boys? You should know, you’re their teacher, what is their common interest. Not to be in the class.
1:07:10 (Laughter) Right? Right sir? Would you agree to that? Oh, come on, sirs. Right? I say don’t have a class. You’re missing my point. Go into it slowly. If that is the common interest of those boys and girls, I say, all right, don’t have a class. If you don’t have a class, what are you going to do? You understand? What are you going to do? I’m going to pin them to it. What are you going to do?
1:07:58 (Pause) Climb a tree? All right, climb a tree all together.
1:08:11 (Laughter) You follow? What is your common interest? So you see what you are creating in them?
1:08:26 I wonder if you see it. So if it is walk, let’s all walk together. Swim, let’s go.
1:08:45 You follow? You know what I’m doing, what is taking place?
1:08:50 Q: Sense of doing together.
1:08:54 Q: Comradeship?
1:08:55 K: No, no, no.
1:08:58 Q: Togetherness.
1:08:59 K: Yes sir. Doing something together. Right? You follow? If you can... What are you people talking about? I am telling you this, why don’t you do it?
1:09:15 MZ: Why should they have a common interest, sir? Why should ten young boys have a common interest?
1:09:31 K: No, I don’t tell them that.
1:09:33 MZ: No, but you say discover the common interest and then...
1:09:38 K: I find out, because I, as a teacher, am always... I’m interested... watching the students, whether they’re playing, running, jumping, shouting, eating, I’m watching them. I know more or less their way of thinking, so when they come to my class – history – I say, ‘I’m not going to talk history.’ That comes later, but I want them to have a relationship with me. So what is my relationship to them? Go on, sir. What’s my relationship to them? What’s your relationship to the students?
1:10:18 Evelyn Blau: Aren’t all those students basically interested in themselves, as we all are?
1:10:30 K: Yes, yes; but I’m asking what is your relationship, as educator, to the student?
1:10:39 Don’t say, ‘It should be love, care, beauty’ — actual fact. What’s your relationship?
1:10:57 EB: But where is the unifying relationship with the ten?
1:11:10 K: No, no, no, no. Madame, I’m not talking about unifying relationship. These are the teachers, what is their relationship to the student? What’s your relationship, madame, to your students? Honestly, not theoretically, actually?
1:11:28 LR: Actually, I am a teacher and they are the students. It’s reality to say...
1:11:38 K: Yes, you are the teacher and they are students. What does that mean?
1:11:46 Lakshmikanthan: We’re all in the same boat.
1:11:51 Ka: That’s right, sir. We are all in the same boat. Right? What’s your relationship?
1:12:04 You don’t... Sir, you talk to them, you live with them, what is your relationship, for God’s sake?
1:12:13 Q: Is there a relationship?
1:12:18 Q: How can I describe my relationship with them in one word?
1:12:21 K: Oh yes, you can.
1:12:22 Q: There might be many...
1:12:24 K: Oh no, no. Relationship is relationship. What is your relationship with your wife? Not this, this, that, the other. I’m not talking about you, personally, sir. Is it total relationship or a partial relationship?
1:12:58 Q: Not total at all.
1:13:02 K: It’s a partial relationship. Right sir?
1:13:06 Q: Yes.
1:13:08 K: So you are the teacher and they are down below. Right? You follow? Or a degree? So is that any relationship?
1:13:23 Q: No.
1:13:25 K: Don’t say, ‘No,’ but break it, change it. Which means have you any relationship with your husband, with your wife, with your neighbour, with your other teacher, or is it all just words, words? Total relationship implies love, not an abstraction love. If I am... I am a teacher, my relationship with the student is total relationship, that means I’m concerned about their food, about their clothes, about their walk, the way they behave — everything, I’m concerned, not just mathematics. Then when they meet me in the class, they know I care.
1:14:51 (Pause) Look, here you are in my class, I feel totally responsible for you, that’s why I spend my blood and my... (laughs) but you don’t care – right? – and they don’t care.
1:15:15 Right sir? So can we, as educators, have this sense of profound responsibility? Not to my family, my little husband and my little sex and my little children, total responsibility for man, for the student, who are going out to the world, thrown to wolves.
1:15:51 (Pause) So you see, that’s what I am... (laughs) How shall we move together in this matter?
1:16:26 How shall I, as I feel, personally, total responsibility when I am talking, when I am meeting people, I feel this. I may be cuckoo, but that’s my way. And I say if I am a teacher, how shall I with those ten students convey, or rather, help them to learn and listen to me as a whole group of students? You haven’t answered my question.
1:17:02 LR: Sir, the sense of responsibility in each one of us may create further conflicts. I may feel that a child must be kept warm and... (inaudible) ...you may feel that he...
1:17:22 K: Oh no, don’t reduce it to that absurdity, madame.
1:17:25 LR: These responsibilities will conflict and then...
1:17:27 K: No, no, no, no, no. If that is so, let us talk about it.
1:17:33 GN: I think that’s a very small matter, really.
1:17:35 K: Let us talk about what it implies: responsibility; all of us, not you feel responsible and I don’t care.
1:17:44 LR: No, no, you do care in different area.
1:17:46 K: No, no. Care is care, not different. How do we, as a group of people, group of teachers, feel responsible together – not I am responsible, you are not – together, how shall we have this feeling that we are together responsible for the whole of this place, for all the students?
1:18:24 How shall we do it? Is responsibility a matter of opinion?
1:18:39 (Pause) The students should have the right kind of food, which means we study what’s the right kind of food, all of us. If I study and say, ‘This is right,’ and you don’t, you want hot, this, that, the other thing, there is conflict. But if we say, ‘Look, let’s study this thing together, find out all together,’ or if you say, ‘Look, I give you the responsibility of finding out what is the best,’ and you are not bringing your personal taste, you say, ‘This is best,’ and because we appointed you, we say, ‘We’ll accept it.’ Right?
1:19:23 So do we that way work together and feel totally responsible?
1:19:36 (Pause) Or you are all bored? (Laughs) You see, first... I know. There are these ten boys and girls in front of me, and I’m the teacher of history. For the moment, I am not interested in teaching history. Right? Are you following this? I am not interested. And also I know deeply within myself, I have no sense of distraction. Then I proceed, I say, ‘Let’s forget history,’ I want to know them. I want to know them: what they think, what they feel, how they react. I say, ‘You tell him all about yourself,’ because that’s the history of man. I say, ‘Tell me all about yourself, what you enjoy, what you like, what you don’t like, whether you slept properly’ – you follow? – you know, because then they will know I really care. It’s not an act which I just pretend; I want to know what they think, because they are the history of man. Right? So I spend a lot of time on that; thirty minutes on that.
1:21:29 Will you do that? Will you do it, sir? (Pause) I’d say, I want to know why they put on that kind of dress, which is out of taste; it’s not good taste, contradictory colours which do not go together. So I would go into it, I’d say, ‘Let’s talk about taste.’ ‘Why do you keep your finger nails dirty?’ You follow? For Gods’ sake, what...?
1:22:15 (Pause) ‘Why do you sit so bunched up like this?’ Then let us find out if you’re doing the right kind of exercise. You follow? Oh, for God... I don’t have to tell you all this.
1:22:38 So I have their interest. Right? Then, when I talk about history, they’ll listen. They’ll come from one class crashing into another class, with two minutes’ interval or five minutes’ interval, I’d say, ‘All right, crash in, sit quietly; let’s talk about it.’ You follow? I am not a history teacher, that comes a little later. I am a human being and they are human beings.
1:23:22 (Pause) So in talking about them, I slip into history – you follow? – the story of man. I’d say, ‘Look what is happening’ – you follow? – you have their complete attention, all of them. Right sir? What do you say?
1:23:47 RD: Sir, it’s not what we do, it’s what we are that matters and the whole problem comes in there.
1:23:54 K: Therefore, I’d say to the students, ‘Look, you and I are [in] the same boat. Psychologically, you are like me. I may know history but I have my problems: I’m anxious, I’m frightened I may lose my job and so let’s talk about it.’ You follow? I don’t mind. I’m not proud; I’ll say, ‘Look...’ Then they trust you. Right?
1:24:28 Q: I think it can be easily done; I think that rapport can be established first.
1:24:36 K: That’s what I’m... First that is the...
1:24:39 RD: Sir, all this is very easy but then there’s something much more than this that comes in. This is very easy, sir, to talk to the child very frankly that I and you are in the same boat. The child sees that the teacher is not pretentious of what – you know? – that he knows...
1:24:53 K: All right. All right.
1:24:55 RD: ...but when you come to the class, when you’re yourself anxious about something...
1:24:57 K: No, I’m not.
1:24:58 RD: I’m not in the state of, ‘I have no distraction.’ I have distraction.
1:25:02 K: No, therefore wipe it out; for God’s sake, get... work at it. Find out what you mean distraction. Don’t keep... take ten years to find a simple thing. Give your whole time to it; find out what you mean distraction. Distraction exists only when one thought has said, ‘This is important and nothing else,’ or, ‘This is the point from which you must act,’ or, ‘This is the point on which you must concentrate,’ then there is distraction all round.
1:25:37 RD: Sir, all that you say becomes another idea; it just goes into the same stream.
1:25:41 K: No, no. Either it is fact... which means what? Either you are listening or you’re making what you hear into an abstraction. Listen without abstraction. When you have pain, you don’t make an abstraction – right? – it is there. In the same way, the fact that thought creates one pattern and any movement away from that pattern is a distraction. See the truth of it, the fact.
1:26:32 (Pause) If you see the fact, then that fact operates; I don’t have to operate on the fact.
1:26:48 (Pause) Now sir, if I may ask, you have listened to me for nearly an hour and a half — where are you?
1:27:20 (Pause) Where are you?
1:27:40 (Pause) Are you still caught up in distraction and no distraction? Are you still saying, ‘I don’t feel responsible, Narayan is responsible’? Are you saying, or rather, have you any relationship with the student, or your only relationship is exchange of knowledge, informing about history, or do you feel a total responsibility as a human being?
1:28:41 So I’m asking, sir, at the end of an hour and a half, where are we? All right, sir, let me put it round the other way: what’s your relationship with each other and with me?
1:29:19 (Pause) Please, can’t you answer this?
1:29:30 La: With you it is very simple: total trust.
1:29:34 K: Why, in the name of names, why? You don’t know me?
1:29:39 La: But it doesn’t matter to me (laughs). I feel a sense of total trust.
1:29:48 K: Why? Go into it, sir. It’s very simple. Why? Do you have trust? You know, when I asked Mr Narayan... Pupul Jayakar asked me, long ago, if Narayan couldn’t come back here...
1:30:06 She was the first person to suggest Narayan should come here. After several years, when there was trouble between Balasundaram and all the rest of it, I asked Narayan at Brockwood – he was still a teacher at one of the schools in England –– I said, ‘Narayan, what’s your relationship with me? If there is any kind of distrust, any kind of doubt, any kind of apprehension with regard to me and you, then don’t go. Don’t go.’ Right? I’m telling him. So I said, ‘If you trust and I trust you, then go.’ Now – because we talked about it a great deal – Lakshmikanthan says to me, ‘I trust you.’ Why? It’s a very serious question, sir, I’m not just playing with words. Why? Why do you listen to me?
1:31:29 Q: Because you’re so concerned about the whole of education.
1:31:35 K: And that’s why you listen to me? Is that why you listen to me?
1:31:48 Q: Yes.
1:31:50 K: Are you really concerned with the whole of education? That means total responsibility to see the child is brought up correctly.
1:32:08 Q: Yes.
1:32:09 K: No madame, don’t say, ‘Yes,’ so easily.
1:32:11 Ka: Can I not say, ‘Yes,’ and yet be aware that I might make a lot of mistakes?
1:32:25 K: Of course.
1:32:26 Ka: I will correct it.
1:32:28 K: Yes, but don’t quickly say, ‘Yes, I am’ — it means nothing. So I’m asking, sir, this gentleman suggested he trusts me, and I say why? Do you trust me, if you’re really, seriously honest?
1:32:49 LR: Sir, you’re totally unbiased.
1:32:52 K: Lady, I asked you a question. I said, ‘Do you trust me?’ LR: Yes.
1:33:00 K: Why?
1:33:01 LR: I told you.
1:33:02 K: All right, if you trust me, what is implied in trust? You may trust me but I may not trust you.
1:33:19 LR: That’s true.
1:33:21 K: Ah, wait. You don’t understand what I’m saying. So it must be mutual. Trust means trust, you, trusting each other. Right? So do you trust me? He says, ‘Yes.’ Then, do I trust him?
1:33:57 (Pause) Which means... trust implies confidence, trust implies honesty, no double dealing, trust implies a sense of mutual care, affection, love is involved in that. You may say, ‘I have that sense with you,’ I have it in myself, therefore it’s not... I don’t...
1:34:41 So do we all trust each other? That is, if you have the quality and the feeling of trust – you understand? – then it’s like water flowing. Right sir?
1:35:04 I think it’s important that we meet again, all of us – right Narayan? – often, before I go away. You arrange it, I’ll adjust myself to you.
1:35:19 GN: I thought we’ll meet next weekend again, next Saturday and Sunday.
1:35:24 K: But before that, too.
1:35:26 GN: Tuesday and Thursday you’re talking to the students, as... (inaudible) K: Yes, yes, yes.
1:35:30 GN: But if you’d like to meet...
1:35:31 K: This is important, because we are the educators. That is, if they want it; I’m not pushing myself onto you.
1:35:45 GN: We’ll arrange it, sir.
1:35:52 K: Do anyone of you do meditation, or is that a catch-word?
1:36:06 (Pause) Not the TM mediation, I don’t mean that. That’s nonsense.
1:36:20 GN: Shall we talk about this when we meet next? About meditation?
1:36:27 K: Yes, delighted; about anything.
1:36:28 GN: About its relationship to teaching and living?
1:36:33 K: Yes, let’s do it. (Pause) I can’t talk about football.
1:36:46 (Laughter)