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RV78DT7 - How will you bring about a group of people who are helping each other to uncondition themselves?
Rishi Valley, India - 17 December 1978
Discussion with Teachers 7



0:00 This is J. Krishnamurti’s seventh discussion with teachers at Rishi Valley, 1978.
0:10 Krishnamurti: I wonder if you have thought anymore about what we were talking about yesterday morning.
0:27 I’m a bit early.
0:35 Two minutes. We were talking yesterday, weren’t we, how to approach a problem, a problem which is quite complex – and all human problems are inevitably very, very complex – and here is a problem, which is: we want to bring about a group of students who are not mediocre, who are not oriented to a career, job, marriage and the establishment – if I may use that word, without any derogatory sense – and if that is not possible – that is, to bring about a human being who is totally developed, not merely academically but psychologically, a complete human being, without all the stresses, strains, sorrow, pain and all the rest of it – if that is not possible, then what is the function of a school of this kind?
3:01 In principle, I think most of us agreed, at least intellectually, if not more deeply, that this should be done.
3:15 If it’s merely an intellectual idea to be carried out, then the problem arises of division, rivalry, exclusiveness, antagonism between the minor group and the major group and so on – if it is purely intellectual – and I’m afraid that this has been our problem, we have approached it rather intellectually.
3:48 Please, correct me if I am wrong. Is there any other approach to the problem?
4:07 It has been pointed out that to approach the problem holistically – I don’t know if I may use that word, which I was… it has been introduced by the scientists: holistic, that means whole.
4:37 Is it possible to approach this problem holistically?
4:47 And that is possible only if we are not biased, if there’s no prejudice, if there is no fear, and [not] from a point which you have already arrived at; and we said a mind that can approach holistically is a mind that starts with not knowing, completely, totally.
5:23 And in that state – which we termed rather hesitantly, rather shyly, love – then the problem becomes very clear, and the solution also.
5:42 That’s where we came to, briefly, this morning – making a résumé of what we talked about yesterday – that’s what we came to yesterday.
5:57 Now we must discuss – please discuss with me – with each other, what is one to do?
6:07 Even if you approach it holistically, wholly, that is academic as well as this whole psychological complexity of man, what is one to do?
6:26 Can we proceed from there? (Pause) Please, you are the teachers, so please…
6:43 George Narayan: We have been discussing for nearly forty five minutes before we came here, and we would like to discuss a few things arising out of what we’ve been discussing.
6:56 You said yesterday that a fact is not fragmentary, but we make this fact fragmentary because we bring a fragmentary mind to it and project what doesn’t belong to a fact on it.
7:14 Also you said that, as a sequence, ‘I don’t know,’ this is wholeness, and you also said it has this quality of love and it is able to see the detail, the fact, in a different way.
7:38 K: Yes.
7:39 GN: The third thing you have been saying is that an open mind is different from an empty mind.
7:45 K: I would like to be clear what you mean by open mind and a...
7:48 GN: Yes, you have been saying; we’ve discussed it, also. Can we go into these a little further?
7:51 K: An open mind?
7:54 GN: An open mind, as distinct from an empty mind.
7:56 K: An empty mind.
7:58 GN: Because it seems to be closely related to the fact, ‘I don’t know.’ K: Shall we begin with fact?
8:08 We said yesterday, if I remember rightly, a fact has no…
8:18 A fact… what did we say? (Laughs) GN: Fact is never fragmentary.
8:23 K: Yes. (Laughs) I can’t repeat myself; that’s rather funny. A fact is never fragmentary — is that so? Right? Is that so? Let’s go on. All right. There is anger, that’s a fact; or violence – let’s take violence for a change – violence is a fact.
8:57 It’s not fragmentary; a fact is never fragmentary. But what takes place is, being violent, thought has created its opposite, which is non-violence.
9:14 Right? Violence, thought has created non-violence, the non-violence gives an illusory perception that fact is fragmentary.
9:31 I don’t know if I have conveyed it.
9:40 Right? Have you got it? Scott Forbes: Sir, could we speak about the nature of wholeness?
9:43 K: Just a minute…
9:44 SF: Because something like violence appears to be a fragment.
9:47 K: It is a fragment, but it’s a fact.
9:50 SF: And so it’s a fragment and it’s not a fragment, then?
9:55 K: Look sir…
9:56 Q: Fragment can still be a fact.
9:58 K: Of course. No, I would like…
10:01 SF: But then it’s not a fragment, because we said that facts are not fragments.
10:06 K: No, just look at it. Scott, just let’s go slowly at it. What do we mean by a fragment? That which is broken away from something. Right? A fragment of a vase, a fragment of a torn picture, a fragment of a human being: nail, eye, so on.
10:40 So we mean by a fragment that which has been broken away from what it was, originally.
10:49 Would you accept that…? Would you? Don’t agree with me, I mean…
10:56 GN: A piece of the original thing… (inaudible) K: Yes.
11:03 Now, if we can use a different word instead of fragment, could we say a thing that is broken?
11:14 Instead of using a fragment, a thing that has been broken up, like a vase broken up, a glass shattered.
11:30 Mary Zimbalist: Isn’t that in relation to how you look at it? The piece of the vase may be a fact in itself.
11:41 If you look at it in relation to the totality of a vase, it’s a piece; if you look at it as an object that might be found in an excavation of… centuries ago, it is a fact in itself.
11:53 K: Yes, yes, yes. Now, how are you… – that’s what I want to get at – how do we look at a broken piece? Is it in relationship to the whole or by itself?
12:06 Just go slowly; let’s evolve it, let’s explore it.
12:14 When you look at a broken up thing, is it in relationship to the whole or by itself?
12:23 Now, just a minute; I want to go into this very carefully.
12:33 We think we are individuals – right? – and so this individuality is separate from the whole.
12:55 This individuality has been separated from the whole through various incidents, accidents, a process of culture, civilisation, struggle, pain and so on, by thought.
13:12 Right? The wholeness of man is not put together by thought, but the individual is put together by thought, and so broken up from the whole.
13:26 I don’t know if I’m conveying this. Go slowly in this. Right? (Pause) All right, let’s go into it: I, me, or this person, is the representative of mankind.
13:58 Right? Would you…? Right? Because I suffer, I go through hell, I go through misery, I go through every form of confusion, uncertainty, insecurity, comparative, struggle, and so on and so on — which every other human being does.
14:19 So I am actually the whole of mankind.
14:28 Would you accept that?
14:32 MZ: One can challenge that, in a way, Krishnaji, if one says that the individual is also a fact.
14:41 As a human being, whatever I am is a fact. If I die, that fact ceases to exist.
14:47 K: Go on, go on, go on.
14:48 MZ: But the whole of humanity is unaffected, the whole goes on.
14:55 Therefore, there is certain factness about the individual.
14:58 K: No, I want first… first let’s go… – you have come to a further conclusion; I haven’t yet come to that – is this a fact: that I am the whole of mankind?
15:13 Psychologically, of course, not… You’re a woman, I’m a man, or you’re tall, I am short, you are wide and I’m narrow and so on.
15:27 Apart from that, psychologically, I am the rest of mankind.
15:32 Q: I can see that I am similar to them, but why do you say it is the same?
15:40 K: Similarity… (laughs) All right, I’ll use the word similar, if you prefer it.
15:48 Q: Wouldn’t I be a fragment of humanity, rather than the whole?
15:55 K: Wait, first see. All right. No, the moment you use the fragment, you have broken away from the whole, and the very breaking away from the whole is the individual.
16:06 Q: That’s what I...
16:07 K: Now, wait, wait, wait! Don’t jump to anything; go slowly.
16:17 Then the fragment assumes all importance. And so, there is constant battle between the fragment and the whole, the individual and the collective.
16:32 The collective opposed to the individual, the mass opposed to the special, and so on and so on.
16:40 Now, first of all, do we see – not merely intellectual but inwardly – the truth of it, that I am the whole of mankind?
16:52 Q: I’ve been conditioned to think that I’m only a fragment, an individual, first.
17:04 K: Madame, we said we would not use the word fragment. Fragment is something broken away from.
17:16 The vase, breaking it, out of that comes a fragment.
17:23 But we may be the fragment, because our thinking is so conditioned that we accept the fragment and blow up the fragment.
17:36 SF: You’re saying, sir, that the whole lies within the fragment though, or what we consider to be a fragment.
17:47 K: I don’t want to… Scott, just play with it for a little while.
17:50 Q: Sir, I have a doubt here. If you say that thinking blows up the fragment, does not then thinking blow up the aspects of inequality also?
18:03 K: Of course; everything from that arises.
18:04 Q: But yesterday we agreed that inequality is a fact.
18:05 K: Is a fact.
18:08 Q: But then it comes down that it’s only a fragment thing; inequality happens to be a fragment.
18:19 K: This is… Please, don’t… You are going after details, here. Let’s go slowly.
18:26 GN: May I say something? Inequality is a fact, but thinking blows it up out of proportion. Inequality is a fact: I am short and somebody is tall; somebody has a great capacity in English, I have don’t have that capacity in English.
18:41 That is inequality — it’s a fact.
18:43 K: Let’s begin. Do you…? Sorry. Doesn’t matter. Go ahead, please.
18:48 Q: It seems coming from this that thought has blown up the fragment of individuality – it boils down to – thought is again the…
19:00 K: Thought itself is a fragment.
19:04 Q: …fragment, yes.
19:07 Q: Sir, individual, I think, is a chance.
19:11 K: Is a chance?
19:12 Q: Like a dice falling…
19:14 K: Yes, chromosomes and all the rest of it. No, you’re all going off to something else.
19:19 GN: So it’s a random collection is it?
19:21 K: Now madame, may I ask you a question: do you feel separate from the rest of mankind?
19:29 You may be a woman, you may be a man, you’re short – I’m not talking at that biological, physical level – do you feel separate?
19:40 Q: It’s a fact.
19:41 K: What?
19:42 Q: Feeling separate from others.
19:45 K: I ask, sir, do you feel separate?
19:55 Q: Yes.
19:56 K: Yes? You’re all so shy.
20:00 Q: No, it means… You’re not very clear exactly what you mean when you say, ‘Do you feel separate?’ In certain respects, through feelings, emotions, we may be alike…
20:10 K: I mean you are ambitious, you are greedy, you are envious and you want to be somebody, you want to be superior to somebody, you have more knowledge, you have contempt for somebody, you praise somebody, you respect somebody, you have no respect for another and so on — which all indicates you are separate from something else.
20:28 Right?
20:29 Q: Is it something more in that? Separateness implies, ‘I am not you and you are not me.’ Not only that but, ‘I can never be you,’ or, ‘You can never be me.’ That is separateness.
20:47 K: No sir. How do you know you can’t be me?
20:50 Q: That’s the feeling. That is what one feels.
20:52 K: No, no, that’s… You see…?
20:54 MZ: Sir, would it be different from what you’ve said if one were to say the individual is not different from mankind, or the whole?
21:08 Would that alter the meaning of what you’ve said?
21:11 K: No.
21:12 MZ: It would or it wouldn’t?
21:14 K: It wouldn’t.
21:16 MZ: So one can say that: that the individual is not different from the human…
21:22 K: Yes. I don’t know what you’re saying. Let…
21:25 MZ: Or is that different than saying what you’ve already said – that the individual is mankind – to say it is not different from mankind?
21:36 K: All right, put it if you want to put it.
21:41 MZ: Is that all right?
21:44 K: Yes, it’s all right.
21:48 Q: Sir, biological separateness is a fact; psychologically, it’s an illusion.
21:56 K: Is that a fact to you, or just invention…?
21:59 Q: I see it, sir, now.
22:01 K: Not now… That means you have no ego. You’re all playing with words, that’s why.
22:15 Let’s drop this, because I don’t think we’ll get very far because you haven’t gone into this question.
22:30 We said yesterday, if I remember rightly, do we all agree to the principle that we should have a group of children, students, who we will groom – quote – or cook or bring about a different quality of mind, with affection, with care, with… all the rest of it.
22:55 Do we, in principle, agree to that? Right? Do we, sir? Come on, sir, you are the teachers. I’m gone tomorrow.
23:07 GN: I don’t think there is a division on that.
23:10 K: There is no division on that? Then how shall we bring that about? Forget what we have said yesterday, let’s start it anew. How shall we bring it about? Without creating rivalry, division, exclusiveness, antagonism and so on, how shall we bring this about?
23:41 God…
23:42 Q: Sir, yesterday you said that only by taking it as a whole it can be brought about, and not working in fragments.
23:46 K: Yes.
23:47 Q: But nevertheless, fragments do remain facts. Let me bring in…
23:50 K: Yes, yes, yes, yes; I understand.
23:52 Q: We get children from various backgrounds, some from very cultured, sophisticated families, and so by virtue of that they come here already with a lot of social graces, sensitivity…
24:05 K: Conditioned.
24:06 Q: …poise, sensitive. Therefore, there is a possibility that some of them may get chosen for that and, in such a circumstance, how do you sort of cope with the left out child’s disappointment, hurt, which is a fact, although it is only fragment?
24:29 K: So would you say, they come to you…?
24:33 Q: After all, for no fault of that child; it’s only an accident of birth.
24:37 K: Birth. I understand all that. Would you say they come to you conditioned – socially, economically, religiously – and you are also conditioned, as an educator, how shall you then bring about a group of people who are helping each other to un-condition themselves?
25:10 Would you put that… would you accept that?
25:12 Q: Sir, may I say something else?
25:15 K: Don’t ask… I’m not the chairman.
25:18 Q: When children come so conditioned and that we choose them just because they have been conditioned so, then we are negating the very vital issue, that we are looking for sensitivity.
25:30 We ought not to look for conditioning as a prerequisite, we should look for sensitivity in the child, regardless of his background.
25:39 K: Yes. Regardless of the background, but he is also conditioned.
25:41 Q: Yes. I mean his background may not be as sophisticated as this child, but…
25:43 K: No, but he’s also conditioned in a different way. He may be more sensitive, in spite of the conditioning.
25:48 Q: Exactly.
25:49 K: And to help him, to un-condition him, will be… he’ll be vastly sensitive.
25:52 Q: I think he’ll be more easier material...
25:54 K: Yes, that’s all I’m saying; exactly the same thing as Mrs Thomas has pointed out. So what shall we do?
26:02 JP: The difficulty seems to be in selecting.
26:12 K: What is wrong in selecting?
26:16 Q: That’s what I’m saying. As we said, we cannot really choose who is the right person. Maybe every one of us gets together and then talk over things; maybe we’ll select some people…
26:30 K: I don’t want to use the word select. I think that’s a wrong word. Forgive me for… Sir, some boys are good and will pass A level or O level – right? – the others will not.
26:52 Right?
26:53 Q: Yes.
26:54 K: Why should there be rivalry between the boys that pass A level and others that don’t?
27:02 Q: I don’t know there is any rivalry.
27:06 K: So there isn’t. That’s all my point.
27:08 Q: There’s no rivalry. We don’t detail, we don’t do anything of the sort. We send them all up: some get through, some don’t.
27:15 K: Now, which means what?
27:17 Q: It is their individual…
27:19 K: No, no… In principle; get at the principle, not the individual. Don’t get off… A level and O level is a test. You pass and I don’t pass. Can’t we do it on the same principle? There is no… you’re not making a selection. You say, ‘This is the thing that has to be done. If you pass, come in; if you don’t pass, keep out.’ There is no…
27:58 I am not making the selection. The capacity of the boy is doing it, not me. I wonder if you get that. What do you say, sir?
28:11 Q: That’s right, sir, but there is always test.
28:14 K: Wait, wait, no. We’ll find the test…
28:16 Q: That’s right. I’m coming to that… But we… Evelyn Blau: Sir, the fact that we have accepted the test as some kind of norm means that we acquiescence in that.
28:31 We’re saying, ‘Yes, this is a valid test.’ It may not be valid. I mean, it may be valid for a limited…
28:39 K: We’ll find out if we all agree that there must be a test. Not a test which will separate people, not a test of intellect and all the rest of it.
28:53 Let’s talk it over. That is, in principle, we say, ‘A level and O level.’ There is no selection in that; it depends on the capacity of the boy.
29:05 So we are not choosing, the boy is choosing. Right? Is that clear? Right sir?
29:13 Q: But he shouldn’t vie for it.
29:16 K: Compete for it?
29:18 GN: I don’t think we are seeing the particular thing clearly. There is no special favour attached to it. I think very few will vie for it. When you say vie, they’ll vie for cricket captaincy – right?
29:38 – they won’t vie for this.
29:42 K: But you’re good at volley ball, or rather basketball, I’m not.
29:51 But if you give the man who is good at basketball greater marks and say, ‘Look, you’ll have a better room, better house, better this and that,’ then I begin to feel inferior and condemned, frustrated and all the rest of it.
30:07 For goodness sake, it is very simple if you can approach it: that is, do we agree that we do not choose?
30:19 Do we agree to that?
30:22 Q: Yes sir.
30:27 K: But the capacity of the boy itself is going to show us the fact, whether he is on that side or this side of the fence.
30:40 Sorry! (Laughs) Black sheep and white sheep; put it ten different ways.
30:45 EB: In that sense, then, wouldn’t the child himself do the choosing?
30:55 The child that shows this capacity would instinctively go in a certain direction; that child is not…
31:03 K: Therefore, what is the line, or the demarcation A level and O’ level, here, what is the line? The line separates, I don’t separate.
31:10 GN: But I’m sensitive to the fact that there’s a line and there is separation.
31:14 K: Ah! The line…
31:16 GN: I don’t separate.
31:18 K: Yes, that’s all.
31:19 GN: But this boy with this sensitivity, and this boy who is good at cricket, and this boy who would like to study English, these are facts.
31:32 K: Facts.
31:33 GN: And I’m sensitive to the facts.
31:37 K: So what is the line, what is the fact, which will help the boy to decide for himself that side or this side?
31:49 You understand my question?
31:50 MZ: Isn’t the basic fact the child’s interest? If the child is not interested…
31:56 GN: We can’t do anything.
31:57 MZ: There’s no problem; I mean there’s no…
31:59 K: He may not be interested but we may help him to be interested, or his interest might grow.
32:09 MZ: We could also say that it would be open… if a child thinks he’s interested and wants to enter the group that he should be allowed.
32:21 K: Yes, of course, of course, of course. That’s… Obviously.
32:24 MZ: Therefore, it is not exclusive in any way.
32:25 K: It’s not a barrier. You don’t build a wall.
32:27 GN: If you get actual facts now, nobody has vied for this; they’ve all vied for plum jobs and careers and such, in the system. Why do you say vying for this? I don’t understand it at all.
32:36 Q: To vie for a group.
32:38 Q: To be in the… (inaudible) GN: The student… (inaudible) …they come, they want a good job, they want a career, they want to be somebody, they want to be trained to be sophisticated, worldly and competitive.
32:58 They don’t vie to have a mind that is not burdened with fear.
33:03 Q: That’s right.
33:04 GN: Why do say they are vying?
33:05 Q: No, supposing we have a line and then they have to cross over, and if the interest is to cross over, he’ll vie for it, though if he doesn’t have a capacity…
33:17 If he has the capacity, there’s… (inaudible) …there is vying for it. If he has no capacity… (inaudible) K: How are you going to judge?
33:30 That’s the whole point.
33:33 SF: Sometimes when you speak to a child about the things we’re going into here, they understand, they can listen to what you are saying, there’s something…
33:49 And sometimes…
33:50 K: Yes, but… I understand.
33:52 SF: …a child… it’s like speaking Chinese to them. So that would be a basis.
33:56 K: There must be a way of helping the child, the student, awakening his – whatever it is – and therefore he himself will go to this side or that side.
34:21 How will you do this? You are not discussing this. That’s what I want to find out. There’s a monastery outside Florence called Certosa – I just remembered last night; I’ve been trying to find the name of it – where the novice is kept out for eleven years.
34:44 You understand? (Laughs) (Pause) So what shall…?
34:56 Q: In other areas, we start with an assumption that every student has a certain amount of proficiency – it is within the reach of every student, in other areas – but this area, I think that assumption may not work.
35:13 K: Sir, how will you help the student to walk over this side and not that side?
35:28 I keep on repeating… If I am a teacher, what shall I do?
35:40 EB: Sir, I’m asking is there any line at all?
35:47 Isn’t that something that is arbitrary?
35:50 K: No… All right. I said cut it all out…
35:53 EB: Even at the A level, O level…
35:56 K: That’s arbitrary. That’s arbitrary.
35:58 EB: Because that only induces fragmentation, it seems to me.
35:59 K: I know. But I’m saying – all right, all that’s accepted – now what shall I do?
36:05 EB: If the focus…
36:08 K: I am interested fundamentally – not intellectually, very, very deeply – that you should come to this side, my side – sorry, don’t jump on that word my side, then you… – this side, what shall I do?
36:28 Q: When there is no judging at all, will the boy comes to this side?
36:40 K: You’re not… You are making… What shall I do, as a teacher? Hanumantha Rao: Excuse me, sir, I want to say what my experience in my classroom.
36:55 I try to express myself clearly. In one classroom, while doing some subject, Telugu literature, there was some connection to philosophical aspect, and we were discussing with the children, I was discussing with the children, this aspect, the topic was… – suppose I know… (inaudible) …all the boys know; it’s fact what has happened, I’m saying – ‘Who is Venkata Ramana?’ Venkata Ramana said, ‘I am.’ ‘So that name was given when you were very young, say, one and half foot long, now you are so long, then is that boy Venkata Ramana?
37:39 You are the Venkata Ramana now. You may grow older. Who is that Venkata Ramana now?’ Then to topic went on discussing, ‘Every second you are changing, the body is changing, who is Venkata Ramana now?’ And that boy…
37:53 I gave that name, because that boy was very much interested and all other students said, ‘Sir, let us do our literature, let us finish it off, this lesson.’ And that boy says… (inaudible) K: So are you saying, sir, through teaching a subject, you awaken his interest to come this side, or in your class you are watching who is good material – forgive me to use that word – who can be helped to come to the north side and not go to the south side?
38:43 Is that what you are trying to say?
38:45 Q: The fact that boy was not good at such studies.
38:50 K: Yes sir, I understand. Is that what you’re saying? Please, I’m asking you to help me, as a teacher, what shall I do?
39:00 Bearing in mind the principle that I want twenty, thirty boys who will be out of this mad rat-race.
39:14 That’s my deep interest. It is [an] irrevocable interest in me, and I say, ‘This must be done in a school of this kind,’ and if it’s not done, Narayan isn’t doing his job.
39:33 He is responsible for this. We discussed this before he accepted the job, and if he’s not doing it, it’s not worth it; ask him to leave.
39:47 So I’m asking myself, as a teacher, what shall I do?
39:54 You understand my question? What shall I do? Help me out. (Pause) Q: Could we offer the child another way of living, and so if he is attracted he could come to it?
40:17 Maybe with more insight…
40:18 K: Then he may be personally attracted to me.
40:20 Q: Not to me, to the new way of life.
40:24 K: I can explain it to him, but the tug is so great on the opposite side that he will slip through my words, my affection, everything, and say, ‘Sorry sir, I prefer that.’ So what shall I do?
40:38 You’re not answering my question.
40:40 Q: Sir, perhaps understanding each child separately.
40:47 Going deep with him into his own fears.
40:55 Q: Sir, this is something that has to be done all the time: when I play a game with him, when I teach him, when I go for a walk, when I climb the mountain, when I eat food…
41:08 K: All right, sir. So you are awake, you are alert, you are aware as a teacher, and through your communication with the student, find out for yourself who is, who is not.
41:30 Without the sense of separation, all the rest of it. Can we do that? Will you do it? That means tremendous responsibility on you.
41:48 EB: Sir, if each child is part of all humanity and is all humanity, shouldn’t each child be given equally the same opportunity?
42:02 K: I’m doing that, I am doing that; in the school, I am doing it. I’ve got twenty boys, I help all of them, but maybe one that will flower more quickly than the others.
42:16 But you’re not answering my question.
42:17 SF: But sir, have we come to the point where we were yesterday, which is that one must be operating… it must be a wholeness and a love which is operating, and in action?
42:29 K: Yes, yes, yes; but it is too vague.
42:32 SF: Exactly, so could…? Because we came to that the time before, as well, when we said that…
42:36 K: Yes, many times we come to that. I’ve spent my life at that, but we…
42:40 SF: Right. So could we go into that, because that seems to be the basis of what we are supposed to be doing?
42:45 K: Scott, if I haven’t got that, what shall I do?
42:52 A holistic approach – you know? – I haven’t got it; it doesn’t mean a thing to me. I understand it intellectually, logically and so on, and so on, but it hasn’t entered my heart; my heart isn’t in it, therefore I’m not a good teacher.
43:16 Right? Will you throw me out?
43:18 GN: Not necessarily, because the other chap who comes in…
43:21 K: May be worse! (Laughter) SF: Couldn’t we go into that then, sir?
43:24 K: That’s what I’m doing, sir. I’m doing that. What shall I do? Look at it, Scott. I’m one of the teachers, the other teachers are not interested in this. They play around with it. They are not interested. They are interested with money, all the rest of it. They have not the capacity or the interest for this; I’m surrounded by this. What shall I do? (Pause) Yes madame. Am I putting the question rightly?
44:03 SF: Could I put the question differently, sir?
44:05 K: No, don’t put the question differently! Stick to what I am saying. Put it differently; all right, sir.
44:14 SF: Because the question for me is more a case of… just what you said before: that I hear it intellectually and yet, deep in my heart, that it’s not a burning…
44:32 K: It hasn’t taken root.
44:34 SF: It hasn’t taken root.
44:36 K: Because I’m not interested in it. Here you are, sir. There you’re all sitting. Tell me if you’re interested. (Pause) So what shall I do? Let’s face the fact. I am profoundly… with all my heart, I’m interested in this. And I mean it; this is my job, all my life I have done this. And here there are a group of teachers who are not interested in this at all.
45:15 Right? Let’s face it. And there are that deadweight and the few who are awake; there is a battle going on between those two.
45:31 It is the same battle with the children. Got it?
45:43 So what shall we do? My profound, abiding interest is that we should create a new generation of people – right?
45:56 – not the old – you know? – it’s too awful to think of it, even.
46:04 And, out of thirty or forty teachers, ten are interested in it – suppose, I’m just guessing – and the rest is a tremendous weight.
46:22 So can we help each other, as teachers, to come together?
46:33 Or is that impossible? Come on, sir, you…
46:38 Q: No, it’s not impossible at all.
46:43 K: Then why haven’t you done it? (Laughs) God, sir…
46:47 Q: As Scott pointed out, it hasn’t been a burning problem in the mind, as yet.
46:52 Q: Yes.
46:53 K: Then what am I doing?
46:54 Q: Yes, I know…
46:56 K: Do I want my son, my daughter, to end up into this muck?
47:00 Q: We are still caught in the snare of details, seeing through the detail, seeing through the fact.
47:08 We are not yet able to see the whole.
47:10 K: What will you do, sir? How will you see the whole?
47:21 Are the ten who are interested, strong enough to say, ‘Look, change or get!’ Otherwise, we won’t create it.
47:34 You see, that’s what I’m trying to see now; it’s the same problem with the children.
47:57 God! Ah? (Pause) Right sir? So can the ten bring about a change with the rest?
48:19 Or the thirty overpower the ten? This is exactly what the school is. You follow? Right madame? What shall we do?
48:33 Q: Those who wilt under pressure are also… form of that, the other weight, so those who are genuinely interested do not wilt under any pressure.
48:48 K: So what shall we do, sir? I’m asking you, as a teacher. Don’t get nervous…
48:53 Q: No, no.
48:54 K: Is this your real interest?
48:57 Q: Yes.
48:58 K: That you want to create, bring about, a group of students who are not caught in the trap?
49:13 You know, the trap? I mean the whole culture, the whole stupidity of mankind. Are you giving your life to it? Will you give your life to it?
49:21 Q: Yes.
49:22 K: Please sir, this is a serious question. Don’t play a, ‘Yes,’ and then just walk off.
49:25 Q: No, no; I am serious.
49:27 K: I’m just… It’s like taking a monastic vow. Wait, wait sir. No! (Laughter) A man who says, ‘I will. It is so, I will do it,’ it means he has understood the whole issue and he says, ‘This is the only way to bring about a new generation, new birth of a people.
49:55 I’ll give my life to it.’ Are you in that position?
50:19 (Pause) Mrs Major?
50:28 (Pause) Taking deep breaths, and sighing. (Laughs) Are you? P. Rajan: To say that, you get scared. No, when you put it like that...
50:39 K: Ah! Put it ten… but comes to that.
50:42 Q: No, whether you’ll be able to face…
50:46 K: How do you create anything, sir, if you don’t give your life to something?
50:53 You give your life to have a baby.
51:00 And after the baby is born, educated, you throw him out. Right? Right?
51:06 Q: Yes, that’s what happens.
51:08 K: I am asking you, Mrs Major…
51:11 PR: I don’t want to throw them out.
51:13 K: That’s not the question. Will you give your life to bring about this?
51:18 PR: How can I answer that?
51:21 K: Oh yes, you can. You are a mother… What is the matter with all of you?
51:24 PR: No, merely by saying, ‘Yes,’ you’re not going to be satisfied with it.
51:27 K: No! But in your hearts you know what to do. I want to put you all in a corner, so that you can’t crawl out of it. Because we have played this game for years and years and years.
51:49 (Pause) So I am interested in it, I have given my life to it.
52:02 Now, what shall I do? Here you are, and there they are; they are exactly like here. Right? Exactly. See the similarly of this. And, if this is not clear here, you won’t make it clear it there.
52:35 Right? Right sirs? If you don’t say, all of us, ‘This is our responsibility, total responsibility, to see this happens.
52:53 We’ll find ways, means: cook and play games — anything. This is our responsibility.’ Do you feel that?
53:11 (Pause) If you don’t, how will you help those children?
53:31 If you say, ‘All right, we’ll undertake this, with blood and tears,’ then what is the next step?
53:40 What shall I do, if I am here – Rishi Valley – and it’s my total responsibility, what shall I do?
54:07 (Pause) Well sir?
54:16 Right? What shall I do? What will you do?
54:26 (Pause) I know what I do, but – you see?
54:43 (laughs) – what’s the point of that? I’m gone, the day after tomorrow. What will you do, sir? If you say, ‘This is my real life, this is my… I am dedicated’ – dedicated in the real sense, not… – like a monk who says, ‘This is my dedication, this is my life, this is my work, this is my home, this is my everything I have.
55:07 It is my delight to do this,’ then what shall we do?
55:20 (Pause) It must be done together – right? – because if I do it and you deny what I am doing, the child is left in confusion.
55:34 If I whisper and you shout – you follow? – it must be together. Are we together? You see, when there is no…
55:52 When a basic question is asked, there is no reply, which means you are not together.
56:00 Right madame? Right? So what shall we do? (Pause) So what shall we do, sir?
56:31 (Pause) Narayan, we say, ‘This must be done, as a school’ – right? – it’s your responsibility, and you can’t play anymore; you haven’t time, because you are destroying those children.
56:57 ‘Oh, we’ll do it next year.’ So what will you do?
57:10 If I feel totally responsible – if a few of us feel totally responsible – can we undertake the whole job?
57:27 And the others, we say, ‘Please, allez-y.’ I’ll teach mathematics, English, French, Geometry, whatever it is; I’ll do it.
57:43 I’ll learn, study – you follow what I’m saying?
57:51 I wonder if you follow this? Shall we undertake that? Will you undertake that? And say, ‘Gentlemen or Ladies, if you don’t come this way, please leave.’ You can’t do this in Rajghat, because those who leave will promptly go to court.
58:22 Right sir?
58:24 Q: Yes sir.
58:27 K: Yes sir. Here they can leave; fortunately, we are not in that position.
58:38 You see, we’re not…! We’re not strong about anything!
58:46 PR: I was thinking, before you have to take that extreme step, would it not be easy for those who are interested to get together, immediately?
58:56 K: Do it! I’m… Do it!
58:59 GN: We met together this morning. We have been meeting together, every week twice, since I came; we have been talking over.
59:02 Q: No, Mr Narayan, I wouldn’t say we’ve been really meeting on the issue; we’ve been talking things…
59:08 GN: No, no, I’m saying… No, we have been talking about various things; teaching the right way, to start with. Education, relationship…
59:13 Q: But that is beside the point… (inaudible) K: But I’m asking, Narayan, I’m asking about…
59:18 GN: No, I understand. Now, if you can’t start… (inaudible) …and do, function fully there, it’s not going to be easy here.
59:30 K: No, I’m asking you, Narayan – you’re not answering my question – it’s your total responsibility to see this happens.
59:45 You can’t say, ‘Give me a year.’ In that year you’re destroying all those children. Right? What will you do? Knowing you have got a dead weight on one side, a few awake on the other.
1:00:04 Sorry, I’m not saying you’re a dead weight or any… human life is that way.
1:00:19 (Pause) Personally, it’s a torture to me to be going on like this. Because I can deal with my own life. If I see something wrong, I change it instantly; I can’t abide not changing it. I won’t carry it to the next day PR: I think the main problem lies in saying it’s Narayan’s problem.
1:00:49 It is not. It is a… (inaudible) …collective responsibility.
1:00:51 K: I agree, but it’s…
1:00:53 Q: He’s also responsible.
1:00:55 K: I said, ‘Narayan, it’s your total responsibility. Unless you undertake it, you… don’t go.’ PR: Sir, we as teachers haven’t really lived our part as teachers and been collectively involved in the whole thing.
1:01:09 K: Darling lady, why don’t you do it? You will say the same thing next year.
1:01:16 PR: I won’t.
1:01:20 K: Thank God. (Pause) All right, if I am the teacher here what shall I do?
1:01:39 First of all, I would make it very clear to all the teachers – because I’m a teacher myself here – when you say, ‘You won’t,’ don’t leave.
1:02:00 (Laughs) Agreed?
1:02:03 PR: Yes.
1:02:06 K: That’s right. I have done this before, talked to individual people. Individually, I’ve said, ‘Look, are you really interested? If not, please, we’ll give you some job; go and do gardening, do anything else, but don’t teach.’ I’ll talk to each one of you and collect a group of people who are vital, strong – right?
1:02:34 – out of this bunch. Then I would go to the students and say, ‘Look, this is what we what to do.
1:02:46 A level and O level.’ (Laughs) You understand? ‘We’re not choosing; by your own capacity you are going to decide, your own sensitivity, your own love, your own curiosity, your own innocence is going to come out of this.’ Right?
1:03:03 I would go into this, for a week, with all the girls and boys, every day, till they get my feeling.
1:03:12 Right? Will you do it? (Pause) And at the end of a… I’m not going to spend more than a week, with the grown-up people; I may spend three weeks with those, but the grown-up people I’m going to spend a week, because I’m not… – you follow? – it’s a burning thing, I can’t…
1:03:35 When the house is burning, we don’t sit down and say, ‘Who has put fire to it? What is the colour of the man? Is he bearded? He is this or that. He’s a man, woman, European.’ The house is burning. So I say, within a week, if it doesn’t happen, ‘Please…’ I’ll get other teachers, perhaps more intellectual, more capacity, pay them more.
1:04:02 I would. I’ll collect the money. You follow? This is thing which must happen, therefore I’ll…
1:04:16 What do you say, Rajesh? Rajesh Dalal: Sir, we’ve understood only part of the trap. My problem – because I’ve done a number of the things which you were saying – I’ve understood only part of the trap.
1:04:35 I don’t understand the whole the trap.
1:04:36 K: No. Let me begin…
1:04:38 RD: It’s my life to understand the whole trap; I’ve given my life to that.
1:04:39 K: Yes.
1:04:40 RD: And I want to see that there’ll be children who understand this and do not belong to the trap.
1:04:45 K: Yes.
1:04:46 RD: But when I do not understand the whole trap…
1:04:49 K: No, I will.
1:04:50 RD: …I loose energy.
1:04:52 K: No. I won’t start with understanding the whole trap and then help the children – you follow what I’m saying?
1:05:02 – I won’t wait till I understand the whole trap. But I have understood part of the trap, so I’m going to work at the part and, as I begin to work, I see the whole.
1:05:14 I don’t wait to see the whole and then work. I don’t know if I’m conveying this. It’s like saying, ‘You are conditioned, I am conditioned.
1:05:29 Unless I un-condition myself, I can’t teach you.’ I un-condition myself and you by talking about it, discussing it with you, going into it.
1:05:45 Which means we must both be interested.
1:05:56 (Pause) Does it mean – as it has always happened in history – one strong man creates it and the rest just follow?
1:07:31 Which is totally wrong. It has happened historically that way: Hitler, all the rest of the gang.
1:07:40 Even the education, one man comes with tremendous ideas and works like hell and brings about a school, and the rest say, ‘Yes sir.
1:07:50 Yes sir. We’ll all follow.’ Here we’re not doing that – right? – that is the real difference. And therefore, it’s vital. When one person dies, the whole thing collapses. You’ve seen this in every organisation.
1:08:13 Here we are all working together, for God’s sake!
1:08:26 In the same boat, therefore… You follow?
1:08:38 So what shall I do if I’m a teacher here? I’m burning with this. Not for a day, it’s my life — I’m burning with this.
1:08:51 So shall I… what will I do? I know what I’ll do: I’ll talk – as I am doing now – I’ll talk to you.
1:09:07 I would… It’s not my enthusiasm, my interest that is going to awaken you, it’s by discussing, talking, you yourself see.
1:09:16 If you don’t see, then I can’t do anything about it. I’m not going to waste my… it’s not worth it. Then, if some of us see it, can we all get together and talk, discuss, so that the roots go deeply?
1:09:33 Right sir? Oh… Right? And then my next step would be go to the students; they may be easier.
1:09:51 (Laughs) I would talk to them in groups, in individuals, collectively, because – you follow?
1:10:01 – I’m burning with it, therefore I don’t care. I don’t care, in the sense… I don’t care in the stupid sense; I care, but I don’t care the way I do it.
1:10:24 I’m going to talk to them, walk with them in the class, but my principal thing is this.
1:10:32 Even in the class, I would talk to them before the subject begins. They will soon find out, sir.
1:10:45 If I mean business, they’ll soon find out I won’t yield.
1:10:54 So, I’m asking, Narayan, are we strong enough, vital enough, to create this?
1:11:13 (Pause) And we’ve got a school – three hundred – we need teachers.
1:11:26 Ten won’t be enough. Right?
1:11:29 GN: No.
1:11:30 K: No. What shall we do? Come on, sir. What shall we do?
1:11:59 Is it a matter of a good salary, pay them much more?
1:12:05 GN: Partly.
1:12:06 K: Wait, wait. I’m asking.
1:12:08 GN: It’s partly that.
1:12:10 K: If it is, let’s get money to pay more, find… It doesn’t matter – you follow? – we’ll beg; I’ll go round with a begging bowl.
1:12:23 Is it a matter of higher pay? Is it a matter of minds that have trained…?
1:12:36 GN: Minds that have lost initiative…
1:12:42 K: Yes.
1:12:43 GN: …because they have worked in the groove of habit for so many years, as we’re discussing. It means a great deal of fear to get out of it, without… (inaudible) K: No, I’m asking you.
1:12:52 Wait. Money, a good brain, a good, capable brain, and he must know what we are talking about.
1:13:02 A good, capable brain will understand what we are talking about.
1:13:10 Now, can you do this? Advertise, shout; in Madras, you’re going to have an opportunity, when there are about three thousand people, to say, ‘Look, we’re going to pay more.’ My God!
1:13:26 Come on. Look Narayan, I have been saying this for the last eighteen years – right? – more, when Balasundaram was here — nothing was done.
1:13:52 (Pause) So will you do this?
1:13:56 GN: It has to be done.
1:13:59 K: Ah no…! Will you do it? It’s all our responsibility, it’s not his alone.
1:14:19 Achyut Patwardhan: I want to strike a slightly discordant note about this payment business.
1:14:33 I feel that if the right type of person is there, and then you say that, ‘Nothing will prevent you from putting your best,’ that makes sense.
1:14:50 K: Yes sir, but you…
1:14:51 AP: But if you say to a man, ‘We’ll pay you,’ then you are striking a wrong motivation.
1:14:56 K: I understand, sir.
1:14:57 AP: And then I feel we must be very careful not to get people…
1:15:04 GN: Who come for money.
1:15:07 AP: …who say, ‘Yes, yes,’ and they come with conformist minds, who incapable of…
1:15:09 K: Of course. Entendu. That’s… I understood that, but you see…
1:15:13 GN: The money we are going to be offering is not that much anyhow.
1:15:15 AP: No, therefore I feel that let them come to us for the intrinsic interest in the thing…
1:15:22 K: Why haven’t they? Achyutji, why haven’t they?
1:15:25 Q: Sir, in our country, no student aspires to become a teacher.
1:15:30 K: That’s it!
1:15:31 Q: Because it doesn’t give any respect or money aspect also is not…
1:15:37 K: That’s what I’m saying, sir: the teacher is the greatest profession in the world.
1:15:48 We don’t accept that position.
1:15:50 Q: Especially, they don’t like to become a school teacher; a college lecturer, all right.
1:15:55 K: Ah! I’m talking of the school teacher.
1:15:58 AP: Sir, don’t you think that, unless a person inwardly opts for this as a vocation…?
1:16:04 K: Sir…
1:16:05 AP: Unless he feels that…
1:16:06 K: I understand, but I must make him feel this is a vital centre.
1:16:10 AP: That’s true. That’s absolutely true.
1:16:13 K: I am saying that, sir.
1:16:14 AP: No, I felt that… You see, sir, when you say, ‘Money,’ I get a little frightened, because…
1:16:20 K: I include the money.
1:16:22 AP: …I know that, in Rajghat, we can…
1:16:27 GN: Money is part of it; it is part of it, but I don’t think we are basing the whole…
1:16:31 AP: I don’t think we should mention it.
1:16:33 GN: It’s part of it.
1:16:34 K: Achyutji – as Mr Venkatraman pointed out – in the world, the teacher is the least respected, the least paid, who has not the good brains.
1:16:43 If he had good brains, he would go off and do something else. So that is the fact.
1:16:49 Q: That is more so in India, sir.
1:16:51 K: Yes sir, I… I watch. I know; more so in this blasted country! (Laughs) AP: No sir, I personally feel we are passing through a paradox. There are teachers who are breaking their hearts in the wrong kind of institutions…
1:17:04 K: Invite them! It’s your job! (Laughs) AP: Sir, it’s a question of our finding the right type of person, because there are both things: there are people who can just become mediocre in a place where they think that now everything is very comfortable and they go mediocre, and there is the other type, where the person is suffocating because he is made to work under wrong conditions.
1:17:33 K: So…
1:17:34 AP: I feel we should get in that kind of person.
1:17:35 K: We should, but what will you do about it?
1:17:36 AP: How to get at it; I think…
1:17:39 K: How will you…? TKK: Sir, the fact is that so far we haven’t made any effort at all at this direction.
1:17:51 I don’t think we have really made sustained effort at all for that. Maybe this time…
1:17:54 GN: You mean sustained effort for the right kind of person. TKK: Right kind of person. You see, it’s quite… I have been discussing with Rajesh for quite some time, sir. Maybe this is time we really did it.
1:18:03 K: So sir, I don’t know anything – I may be living in Madras – not knowing anything about this school and what you are doing – serious, not just the flippant – that you have got a good mind, not a shoddy, little mind, and you are working here; none of them know about all this.
1:18:25 What will you do? (Laughs) Advertise, go round…? TKK: (Inaudible) …this can be done, sir.
1:18:34 K: No sir, find… Go round to all these schools and say, ‘Look, this is what we are doing. Come and help.’ Their first question is, ‘I’ve got family, I’ve got children: money.’ Oh sir, you’re not facing all this.
1:19:00 Narayan, what shall we do – practical – to attract the best minds into this?
1:19:13 Mind, I mean not just brains but… (Pause) Q: Sir… (inaudible) …in all our gatherings we invite people who are connected with education: either a student or a teacher somewhere, or lecturers in a college.
1:19:36 K: Yes sir?
1:19:37 Q: Not others.
1:19:38 K: So – right – let’s do it; we’ll have a meeting in Madras. I’m taking Madras; will you do…? (Laughs) GN: Sure.
1:19:46 Q: We have to start now, then. You have to start writing to all the colleges and educational institutions, those… that we would like to have a couple of them visiting us, be our guests… (inaudible) …maybe they’ll come out of curiosity… (inaudible) Q: Yes, probably we haven’t even advertised it, you know?
1:19:56 The whole thing hasn’t even come out in papers, in this form that we… (inaudible) This is what we are trying to do.
1:20:10 Q: What will you advertise?
1:20:11 AP: I have been trying to think…
1:20:13 Q: Maybe we should discuss it.
1:20:14 Q: No, the wording and how we should put it. These are all things which I can discuss.
1:20:20 Q: I don’t think we should advertise. Let them come and see for themselves; I think that would do more.
1:20:28 Q: By advertising you’ll get only job seekers.
1:20:35 Q: (Inaudible) K: You see…?
1:20:38 GN: We are now doing it and we’ll continue in this, but I think… it’s not as simple as that.
1:20:45 Q: No, supposing we do it in the educational areas where there is a contact with the right kinds of people; that would… instead of just advertising for teachers.
1:21:02 K: In other words, you haven’t thought about this at all; this is the first time you’re thinking… For God sake!
1:21:08 Q: I think our challenge lies in the Public Schools Headmasters’ Conference. That’s the first…
1:21:11 GN: I wouldn’t recognise any of them. (Laughter) Q: I think you ought to.
1:21:16 K: Look Narayan, it has been a problem in Brockwood – correct me, Scott and whoever in Brockwood – Mrs Simmons and others tried to find some teachers.
1:21:28 They went to Oxford, Cambridge and all the rest of it. They have brought together so-called first-class brains, who have PhDs – you know? – all the rest of it. The first thing they demanded: girls – no, don’t… I mean, this is what they demand – or a pub, near town, Saturday and Sunday off, to go to London – you follow?
1:21:52 They are not interested in all this stuff.
1:21:59 So they said, ‘Doesn’t matter, don’t let them have… We’ll create our own teachers’ – right sir? You follow? – but you do neither.
1:22:15 (Laughs) (Pause) So will you…?
1:22:25 Narayan? When I say Narayan, please, I mean the whole gang.
1:22:40 (Laughs) (Pause) You see, Narayan, you haven’t time.
1:22:58 Face that fact; you haven’t time. ‘I’m working at it, I am doing it, I’m trying it, I’m talking…’ You haven’t time; because those children, in the meantime, are being destroyed.
1:23:18 Right? (Pause) I think we’d better stop, don’t you?