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RV80DS1 - What happens when you are concerned only with yourself?
Rishi Valley, India - 11 December 1980
Discussion with Students 1



0:28 Krishnamurti: I hope that you'll be good enough to forgive me for not attending last night's dance. I apologise for not being there. What shall we talk about? Come on, sirs, what shall we talk about? Silence? You mean to say you have nothing to talk about? About the school, about your teachers, about your food, about your examinations, about what you are going to face when you leave this place, college, university, job, marriage, and settle down for the rest of your life in a little house, go to the office or to the factory or to a chemical laboratory for the rest of your life, from nine to five. Is that what you want to talk about? So if I may ask, what would you like me to talk about? Are the older boys cynical – and the girls – rather callous, indifferent? If you are, and I hope you are not, the world is becoming like that, callous, indifferent, totally unaware of what is taking place globally, only concerned with their own little problems, with their own little worries, their quarrels, their little ambitions and so on. This is what is happening right throughout the world. Every person, wherever he is, in the lowest strata of society or high up on the ladder, they are all concerned about themselves, like you. And when the whole world, the human world, is concerned only about themselves, do you know what happens? Do you know what happens when you, the older student or the younger student are only concerned with yourself? Do you know what happens? Question me, discuss with me, have a dialogue with me. Don't just sit there like so many lumps of human beings. Do you know what will happen to you when you are only concerned, when you are only thinking about yourself. You may occasionally think of another, occasionally be concerned, perhaps with your wife, with your children, with your neighbour, or with the poor, but when you spend most of your life from the sunrise to the sunset, when you are thinking about yourself, do you know what will happen? Come on, discuss with me that question. When you are concerned about yourself, you build a wall around yourself. It may be a pleasant wall, or a wall that is full of pain and sorrow, a wall, either intellectual or emotional. Whatever that wall is, created by you, by your anxieties, by your worries, by your fears, by your confusion, that wall is going to separate you from another. And this is what is happening globally. Not only in Rishi Valley, but also in all the universities, colleges, schools, families, nations, races, this is what is happening. And so man is against another man. So they are constantly at war, constantly in conflict. There are wars going on now in the world, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and small wars going on all over the world. There are also small wars going on in the family, small wars – wars where you are living, here in Rishi Valley, each person concerned with himself, his problems, his career, his job, and so on. Are we aware of this? Are you aware of this, what is happening to you, in the world, in all the human beings that inhabit the earth? The earth is very beautiful. I don't know if you have noticed it, how extraordinarily beautiful the earth is, full of varieties: valleys, mountains, streams, rivers, snow-clad, great, immovable, magnificent mountains. This is our earth. We have to live on it. That is the only place where we can live, but we have made the earth and ourselves into a hideous place. Are you aware of all this? Would you kindly answer me? Are you aware of all this, that the earth is very beautiful, and we, human beings, are not very beautiful. We are always either conceited, vain, arrogant, ambitious, destructive. So we are destroying the earth, the air, polluting it, the sea, all our environment is gradually being destroyed. Do you know that they have killed over fifty million whales? Are you listening to what I am saying?
11:00 Students: Yes, sir.
11:07 K: Little chaps answer very quickly, but I'm not sure they understand what I'm talking about. But you who are little older, you don't answer. What's the matter with you, are you asleep? Or you are not interested in what we are talking about? If you are not interested in what the speaker is talking about, why are you here? You understand my questions? What, sir?
11:56 S: We see that these are facts.
12:10 K: If you are aware of all this, what do you do about it? Just talk about it, describe it, read it in books, pass exams? What do you do as a human being, young or perhaps little older, the teachers, the parents, the government, the whole society, what do they do about all this? You understand my question? Do you understand English?
12:58 S: Yes.
13:01 K: Is that an insult?
13:09 S: We are concerned about ourselves, we usually don't think about others. Because the government and the society, they don't think of doing things for the people.
13:21 K: That's quite right. Then what do you do about it? You understand, sirs and ladies? We are being educated. You study mathematics, physics, science, biology, and so on. Academically, you are being trained, disciplined, conditioned, to be a doctor, to be an engineer, to be a professor or a businessman but never a carpenter, right? Never a first-class builder. So you are being educated, and that education is helping you to be more and more selfish, more and more concerned with yourself. Are you aware of this?
15:13 S: The fact is that when we come to school...
15:22 K: Good, come over here. You see what the punishment is going to be if you talk? Do you understand what the punishment is going to be if you talk? You are going to come and sit here, which is nice. I need companionship. You understand what I am saying? So the more you talk the more you'll come here, and I'll be glad. I don't want to sit by myself here. All right? So will you kindly talk, ask questions, be sceptical, doubt. You understand? Good, now proceed.
16:23 S: When we come to school, we come to study for ourselves. So, you're just coming for yourself, you're just being educated for yourself. So, you're not doing anything else. You come to school because you are studying. You're not studying for someone else, you're studying for yourself, so you're being educated selfishly, for yourself.
16:50 K: I said so. When you study mathematics or biology or physics, are you studying it for yourself? Just listen quietly first. When you study any of these subjects, are you studying it for yourself? Or you are studying it to pass an exam, to get a job, right? So, this study leads you to become selfish, leads you to become more and more enclosed, more and more narrow down this extraordinary mind to a little spot, the home, the job, the worry, you follow?

S: Yes.
17:56 K: Do you realise this?
17:59 S: I do realise.
18:00 K: Wait, let's understand what we mean by realising. Do you realise the words, the meaning of the words, or the actual fact?
18:17 S: Could I ask you something?
18:19 K: Wait a minute, you will ask me plenty of questions. Keep it, for the moment. When you say I realise, what do you mean by that word?
18:30 S: I wanted to ask you that, what realise means.
18:35 K: I'll tell you what I mean, but I want to know what you mean when you used the word, were you copying me?
18:42 S: No, I was saying realise in the sense that I know it, to know.
18:50 K: Now, what do you mean knowing? Think carefully, don't answer before you have thought it out. What do you mean when you say, I know? You know two plus two make four. You know that putting certain numbers together it must be correct. So when you say I know, what do you mean? Do you know your father and mother? Careful, think it out. Know. Do you know your teacher? Do you know Mrs Thomas, Mr Narayan? Know, in the sense you have watched them, you've studied them, you understand their problems, their difficulties, or you only know the name, the form.
20:03 S: And what they are to me. That's all.
20:05 K: So what does that mean? Wait, you don't know them – that's all.
20:14 S: I don't know them.
20:16 K: So, one has to be very careful in the usage of language. That is, when you say, I know, you mean I know them superficially. You really don't know them. Understood?

S: Yes. Now, in the same way when you say, I know that I am selfish, I know all that I am studying will lead me to have a mind that is only concerned with a job. Now, when you say I know, what do you mean there? Are you following all this?
21:09 S: Yes.
21:12 K: Yes, I understand. Say for instance you have pain, physical pain, toothache or whatever it is, you know that you are having pain. That's a fact, right? Now, similarly, do you know that your studies, everything is leading up to a point where you are only concerned mostly about yourself? Do you know it, do you feel it, or it's just a description?
21:55 S: I know it because it's true!
21:59 K: True. So, careful now. What do you do about such a thing when you know it to be true? If you have a toothache, what do you do? You know you have a toothache, you go to a dentist. You go do something. Similarly when you know this...
22:24 S: But then you do something when you know that you don't like it, but when you know that you are with it, and you are happy living that way...
22:36 K: Ah, I see, you are happy living that way.
22:41 S: What would you do then?
22:42 K: I am asking you, you are happy, are you? That is, you are living in a closed wall, a prison of your own making, and you enjoy it.
23:02 S: But that's because that's the only thing I know.
23:05 K: Wait, and you enjoy it, because that's the only thing you know. Are you sure?
23:16 S: I know some more, something else too.
23:20 K: What do you know something else?
23:22 S: That there is a different way to live, you can escape from that wall.
23:31 K: So you know two things now: you know the way you are trained to live, and you also know that there is, may be, a different way, right? So what you are going to do?
23:55 S: When you know that there is a different way, you try to think of which way is better.
24:01 K: Come over here. There is plenty of room here.
24:40 S: You try to think which would be better for you, which way to follow.
24:48 K: So, you have been trained to that, academically, school, college, university. If you are lucky, then pass exams, get a job, and be only concerned with that. And as this girl points out, there is also another way, which may not be that, may be a different way of living. Do you know the difference between the two?
25:22 S: Yes, one way assures you of a very secure life, you know that you are going to get a job.
25:27 K: Don't say it assures you a secure life. Does it?
25:34 S: Yes, if you're selfish, that means you are not going to bother about others.
25:40 K: You are safe. Are you?
25:46 S: I think you're safe as long as you don't know about the other thing.
25:51 K: That's it. But you do know about the other thing.
25:55 S: So you are not safe.
25:58 K: You understand what she said, or you only listen to yourself? Did you listen to what she said?

S: Yes.
26:12 K: What do you say about it?
26:27 S: Can I say something? I'll sit here.
26:30 K: All right.
26:35 S: Initially you said that we build a wall around ourselves whether it's comfortable or different, it's a wall, around each of us. After listening to you for some time, I see that I have a wall round myself – I really see it. So, if I want to...

K: ... break through it.
27:02 S: ... break the wall, if I say that I want to be a good person, or I want to be a whole person, it doesn't work, because it's again my own selfishness working through, to be a good person. So the only thing I can see is that I've got to look at each brick in the wall. Just look at it carefully, and see if I can make some kind of understanding out of it.
27:35 K: Right. Have you understood her question?

S: Yes
27:38 K: Are you sure?
27:41 S: Yes.
27:42 K: You've understood her question?

S: Yes.
27:46 K: You are rather doubtful. Please correct me if I am wrong. She is asking... She is asking: I know I have built a wall around myself. I know it's ugly. I know that it won't be a good person who has built a wall around himself, and also I want to break it. I want to break down the wall, but I cannot break it down completely, right?
28:43 S: That isn't exactly what I meant. I meant that, if, in trying to break down the wall, I say that I want to be a good person...
28:52 K: That's right, it is the same. Now wait a minute, have you understood that?

S: Yes.
29:00 K: You understand what you are saying? Slowly understand what you are saying. The actor – I'm using a different word – the actor who builds the wall round himself, that very actor wants to break down the wall, and in breaking down the wall, he is still the same, right? Have you got the meaning of it?

S: I didn't understand.
29:32 K: Have you understood it?
29:36 S: You just said that in wanting to break down the wall, he has not solved anything. Unless I am whole, unless I am happy, I cannot see how I can make anybody else whole, or anybody else happy.
29:54 K: You are saying the same thing that she is saying. That is, I am the builder of the wall, and also I am the person who wants to break down the wall.
30:08 S: Yes, so, if the person is the same, then the wall is the same again.
30:14 K: That's right. Quite right. You understand this? No, be careful that you really understand this. I have built the wall round myself, and I want to break down the wall, and I want to be a good person. So I am still the same person. Wait, carefully understand it. I am the same person who built the wall, I am the same person who wants to break down the wall, I am the same person who wants to be good. So I remain the same trying to be different all the time. Have you got this?

S: Yes.
31:00 K: Are you sure?

S: Yes.
31:04 K: I must be very clear that you understand this, that, whatever I do, I am still the same, wanting to be good, wanting to be free, wanting a car, wanting to be a sub-collector, wanting a bigger house, I am the same. So what? Careful, don't answer, think it out slowly. We have got plenty of time. I can stay here all the morning if you want to. So think it out carefully. What?
32:02 S: If you want to change yourself, you only want to change yourself out of a sense of selfishness.
32:07 K: Yes, so whatever you do you remain the same. Don't be sad, be cheerful about it. You understand that? Now see, go behind that.
32:28 S: Sir...

K: Ladies first.
32:34 S: Having realised that, if I want to be better, or if I want to be good, I am the same, the only thing which I can see is to very carefully examine this 'I' which builds up these walls.
32:56 K: So who is going to examine it?

S: I, again.
32:59 K: So what? No, see, you are being very logical, right? You have been very logical, so am I. See what happens. I said just now, whatever I do to be good, to be no good, to break down the wall, is the same. What is behind that? Use your brain. You are all academically trained, but you are not using your brain.
33:49 S: When I want to break down the wall, do I see why I want to break down the wall?
33:56 K: Why do you want to break down the wall? Why? Tell me.
34:01 S: Is it because the speaker is asking me to break the wall?
34:06 K: Come over here and sit down. I can't hear you.
34:10 S: May I sit there?

K: Sit there, all right.
34:16 S: When I want to break down this wall of mine, do I break it because the speaker is asking me to break it, because the speaker is outlining something much better than what I am now, and I want to become that. Is that why I'm breaking this wall or is it because of something else?
34:32 K: No, she says, I see I must break down the wall. I understand what the wall does, separates me, etc. She sees it herself, it's not because, no, careful, it's not because I point it out. I may point out, but she understands it.
34:55 S: So you are helping her to understand it.
34:57 K: Understand it, that's all.
35:00 S: Not because you are saying that.
35:02 K: Then I'll become a stupid person, I'll become a guru. Perhaps it's the same thing as being stupid. Now, what is my motive? You understand what the word motive means? Careful, you don't. Don't say it immediately. Motive means movement, right? Do you understand that? Am I making it awfully difficult?
35:50 S: But what we know as motive is not movement.
35:53 K: Of course it is movement. Just examine it. It means movement, moving from one point to another point.
36:07 S: Yes, motive.
36:09 K: Get it? You've got it? Are you listening? Have you got it? I have a motive. A motive is a movement of my desire. You get it? You understand this? So, my desire says, I must break down the wall, I must be good, and so on. So desire is making me change the objects. Are you following this? When I'm very young I play with toys. Then I become little older, there is change of objects. So, is your change – to break down the wall – a movement of desire? Is this too difficult? That chap says no.
37:35 S: A moment ago you pointed out that education leads to selfishness.
37:40 S: You had pointed out sometime back that education leads to selfishness.
37:45 K: Ah, just a minute.
37:49 S: Then what is education for?
37:51 K: That's what I'm asking you, why are you getting educated?
37:55 S: Then why should there be education, what are we here for, if you say education leads to selfishness?
38:02 K: I don't understand his English.
38:04 S: He is saying, if you say that education leads to selfishness what are we here for.
38:09 K: I am asking you.
38:11 S: I understand that, sir. But then what is your definition of education then?
38:18 K: The definition is to educare, in Latin, which means to pull out. You're caught. You see, I'm asking you. All right, let's begin again. Why are you being educated, all of you? Tell me. You are studying mathematics, geography, history, economics, and so on. Why are you being educated?
38:58 S: To get a job.
39:04 K: You are quite right, sir. At last you are being stirred up. Right, sir? Is that why you are being educated, to get a job? What does that mean, getting a job?
39:27 S: To lead a good life.
39:33 S: It means that you have money and you can buy what you want.
39:36 K: It's quite right. You understand what she said? If you have money, you can get what you want. And if you have money, can you have good life?
39:49 S: Yes.

K: What do you call good life?
39:53 S: No financial problems.
39:59 S: He said no financial problems.
40:06 K: You know, on an English film on the BBC, you know what the BBC is? Of course. A comic man, comedian, dressed up as a guru and they are all sitting like this, all the disciples around him, and among other things he says, 'Give me all your money and you'll have no financial problem.' I think that's what the gurus want, give them all your money, you'll have no problems. Is that what you mean?
40:55 S: But is it not important to have the basic necessities of what we need every day.
41:02 K: I agree. You have to have basic necessities for life. That is food, clothing, shelter. Are you quite sure those are the necessities of life, clothing, food, shelter?
41:31 S: Those aren't the only necessities of life. You can't live only with food, clothing, and shelter. You've got to have some fun.
41:40 K: Oh, all right. You've got to have some fun. Add that. Those are the necessities of life, fun, shelter, clothing, food. Is that what you want? You consider those the necessities of life? I can't hear.
42:08 S: He said it helps you in the future, education, because you know about things.
42:21 K: At last they are waking up. It has taken forty five minutes to make you talk. So you are being educated to have food, clothes, shelter, and some fun. Is that all?
42:49 S: But we enjoy learning science, physics, geography and all that.
42:55 K: Yes, add all that. Geography, history, physics, mathematics, biology, how to climb a tree and so on. And then what?
43:09 S: Excuse me, we need education for standing on our own legs and to not depend on anybody.
43:17 K: Right. Come over here, old boy. You come here. She's stepped down. So you are saying education helps you to stand on your feet.
43:43 S: Yes.

K: And stand alone.
43:46 S: No, that we don't depend on anybody, and when we grow big we can be our own self and help others.
43:56 K: Is that what your parents are doing? What the people around you are doing, stand alone and help others?
44:05 S: No, sir.
44:07 K: No, sir. Are you saying no? Are you all afraid to face facts?
44:19 S: Yes, of course.
44:21 K: Of course. I am glad. At least you say something which is real. So you are all frightened to face facts, that you are selfish, that you are just out to get a career, being educated for that, and money. Is that what you want?
44:46 S: That's what nearly everyone wants.
44:52 K: That's what you want.
44:53 S: Yes, sir.
44:56 K: Why are you frightened to say so? So, everybody wants this, right? I said that at the beginning, that everybody is concerned about himself. And you see what happens when everybody is concerned about himself, what happens in the world?
45:21 S: War.
45:24 K: War. Then what else. Go on, tell me, don't go to sleep.
45:31 S: Destruction.
45:36 K: What else?
45:37 S: Each person lives for himself and not for anyone else.
45:42 K: That's a fact, they are doing it.
45:45 S: But you told us that there is another way.
45:49 K: I didn't tell you.
45:51 S: Ok, I know that there is another way. But then I don't know how to go the other way.
45:59 K: So we're going to find out. First, you must be clear what you are doing, before you can go the other way.
46:06 S: And I don't know what the other way is going to be. So I don't know if I want to go the other way.
46:12 K: Quite right. So, you see this way, which is getting educated, passing exams, school, college, university, job, – that's the way you all know. All the parents, all the neighbours, everybody knows that, they think that's the way to live. Now, what's wrong with that? Be clear.
46:44 S: There I am living for myself.
46:47 K: What does that mean, what's the result of that?
46:50 S: Unhappiness.

S: I am living alone.
46:53 K: Yes, go on, she says unhappiness. Be clear. Don't say anything that you yourself have not felt, seen.
47:03 S: I am not concerned about anyone else.
47:06 K: Yes, then what happens?
47:07 S: You become insensitive.
47:11 K: Insensitive, right. Go on, please, move.
47:18 S: You become self-centred.
47:22 K: You become self-centred. Then what is the result of all that?
47:28 S: The most important thing which I see is, as a result of all this I don't have any kind of relationship with anyone.
47:35 K: That's right. So you don't have any relationship with anyone. So what happens when you have no relationship with anyone? Go on, think it out. Think out the sequence.
47:48 S: You are destroying yourself.
47:55 S: You are destroying yourself, he said.
47:59 K: If you have no relationship with another, what happens to you?
48:07 S: You are living all the time in fear. You want to have relation with other people and you cannot.
48:15 K: I can't hear.
48:16 S: You're always living in fear because you want to have relationship with other people, but you can't.
48:24 K: So what happens to you?
48:29 S: Even though you think you are secure, you are not. You are insecure completely.
48:33 K: So you have found that out? Are you quite sure that you have found out that when there is no relationship with another you are entirely insecure? Wait, see that fact. Then what do you do? No, look at it carefully. You want a relationship with another but you cannot have it because you are within a wall. And as long as you are within a wall, you are lonely, unhappy, uncertain, insecure, that's a fact. Then what do you do next?
49:26 S: Sir, but then it becomes a search for security. Are we questioning to find absolute security?
49:33 K: Are you asking if there is absolute security?
49:36 S: No, but why are we looking into all this if we know that we are insecure when we don't have relationship? Are we searching for absolute security?
49:46 K: I am asking you.
49:50 S: Even if you want to break the wall and finally manage to, and you want relationship, you go to another person. The other person is not bothered, he is living for himself. Nobody is prepared to listen to you.
50:23 S: I said, even if you want relationship and you go out in search of it, go to another person, and you say I want relationship, but the other person is not bothered about anything, he is living for himself. He is not bothered about you, he says I don't want relationship. What do you do?
50:42 K: That's what I am asking you.
50:48 S: It's a kind of vicious circle which you have to break somewhere.
50:51 K: That's what I am saying. Do you realise it's a vicious circle? I want to have relationship with you because I am lonely, unhappy, and the other person is also lonely, unhappy.
51:11 S: It basically ends with the same thing, building an image and getting caught.
51:17 K: What?
51:19 S: It basically ends with the same thing, building a wall round yourself and getting caught in the end.
51:26 K: So what will you do?
51:31 S: You'll not build a wall round yourself.
51:36 K: See, what we generally do is accept it, get used to it, and just slowly die, that's what we do. We say society is like this, every human being is concerned with himself, society is corrupt, and I am also a part of that society, I'll be corrupt, I'll be unhappy, and I gradually get used to it, and be swallowed by it. Are you going to do that? Answer my question, don't dodge it.
52:25 S: Sir, right now you are like a horse with its eyes straightened only in one path. If you manage to get it open, then you can probably think of another way.
52:37 K: That's right, that's what we are doing now, aren't we? I have lived my selfish life, and you come along and point it out me, I want to throw these out, my blinders.
52:58 K: So what shall I do?
53:00 S: You have to be broadminded.
53:06 K: I am not broadminded. What shall I do?
53:10 S: See the fact that it is, see that you have built a wall around yourself.
53:15 K: Do you first see that? Do you see that, old boy, or just talk about it. You see, we are very good at talking about it but we never do anything about it.
53:31 S: That's because only when we come to discuss it, do we really come to think about it.
53:38 K: Yes, I am asking you to think about it now. This is part of your education, isn't it? So, let's talk about it, let's think about it. It's now 11 o'clock, let's look at it. Our education, academically, is helping us to get a job, to get a wife, children, a house and all that, and I live in that small little home, and I don't want to be disturbed. Because I think that is complete security for me. Are you following all this? But is it secure?
54:45 S: It is not.
54:47 K: How do you know?
54:50 S: There are many people doing the same thing and you are following them. You don't know what comes next, and you don't know when you are going to lead to your own destruction. So it is not secure.
55:04 K: Do you know what that chap asked, behind you? He said, are we seeking security, and is there such a thing as absolute security.
55:20 S: If it is not absolute security, at least you are partly secure.
55:25 K: So, you are satisfied with partial security.
55:31 S: Comparatively it's better than nothing at all.
55:34 K: That's right. So is everybody saying that?
55:38 S: I don't know.
55:41 K: Of course, you think about this, you watch them all, they are all doing the same thing.
55:47 S: It depends on the sense, the way you use the word security.
55:52 K: All right, what do you mean by security?
55:55 S: To some people it may mean lots of money, enough money to provide for the rest of their lives, but to some people it may mean something different.
56:05 K: I don't know, what does it mean, something different? Tell me.
56:11 S: For some people it may mean living in a good society.
56:15 K: Which is a good society?

S: Where people are not corrupt.
56:22 K: Where are they?

S: I don't know. I have not found any society which is not corrupt.
56:31 K: Are you saying this society is corrupt?
56:36 S: I don't know as yet.

K: What do you mean you don't know? Don't you know there is bribing going on?
56:43 S: Yes.
56:50 K: So the society in which you live is corrupt.
56:56 S: Most probably it is.
56:57 K: What do you mean 'most probably', are you a lawyer?

S: No, sir.
57:02 K: Is your father a lawyer?

S: No.

K: Oh, thank God.
57:09 S: Some people might find security in love, but I don't know what love is. In a relationship they might find security.
57:17 K: That's it. Either you find security – just listen carefully – in money, or in a person, or in an idea, or in a belief, or in some concept which they have created for themselves. So, what? They find security in money, in a person. When they try to find security in a person, is there a security?
58:02 S: Say I look for security in money, in a person, actually I am dependent on that money, I am dependent on that person, and that is not security, is it? Being dependent on something is not security.
58:14 K: No, I am asking you – I quite agree but just examine what I'm saying for a minute. You find security in a person. Now what are the implications in that security? What is the sequence, what follows? I depend on you, what happens to me?
58:41 S: I depend on you. If I depend on you for security, I am afraid that I will lose this security someday.
58:49 K: That's the first thing, right? So I am afraid I will lose you, which means what, I cling to you more and more.
58:58 S: And again you feel insecure.
59:00 K: Again I'll feel insecure. Do you realise that there is no security in a person? Do you know it as a fact? So then will you not depend? So will you not find security in a person? Husband, father, mother, guru, – what else, politicians.
59:36 S: Does that mean that there is no security in a relationship?
59:41 K: You are going to find out, it means that.
59:44 S: That means the only thing you can find security in is yourself.
59:49 K: Now, what is yourself? Poor little people. You see, you all use these phrases without thinking it out. He said, why are we talking about all this?
1:00:07 S: Because he asked about whether we are searching for absolute security.
1:00:12 K: Yes, now he asked that question, why?
1:00:26 S: You say education is selfishness.
1:00:30 K: Look, I didn't say education is selfishness. I said, look what is happening now that you are being educated, see what you will result in.
1:00:46 S: Education is to improve our knowledge.
1:00:53 K: Yes, education is to acquire knowledge, about mathematics, about biology, about architecture, about engineering, how to build a house, how to build a car and so on, acquire knowledge. That knowledge helps you to act, either well or not well, skilfully or not skilfully. But in that action you become selfish, that's all we are talking about. And then this chap was saying, why do we talk about security?
1:01:44 S: If you want to help others, we'll have to be concerned about ourselves because if we want to help them we'll have to survive.
1:01:53 K: If you want to help them you have to survive. I am asking him. He hasn't answered.
1:02:07 S: Again it comes back to selfishness. I want security. Again it comes back to selfishness.
1:02:14 K: No, but he asked a different question. Why are we talking about security, and is there absolute security, – that's his question, right? Ask him, why is he talking about security. Aren't you seeking security?
1:02:36 S: I think I am, because I think I wouldn't be here if I wasn't. If I wasn't seeking security.
1:02:47 K: Wouldn't you?
1:02:49 S: No, I think I would be doing what I am secure in. Supposing, maybe if it is sitting here, then I would be here, but if it was anything else that I am perfectly secure in, If I had no doubts, no fears, then I wouldn't be here.
1:03:06 K: So you are secure here.
1:03:10 S: No, I'm saying I'm insecure, that's why I've come here.
1:03:13 K: Now, wait. Are you quite sure you are insecure? Or it's just a lot of words, clever argument.
1:03:27 S: Yes, I'm quite sure I'm insecure.
1:03:30 K: Are you being clever?
1:03:33 S: I don't think so.
1:03:35 K: Right, so you don't think you are being clever. Then you say, I am insecure, insecure with regard to what?
1:03:47 S: I don't know what you mean by that.
1:03:49 K: What do you mean 'I don't know'. Insecure, what makes you feel insecure?
1:04:04 S: If I am hurt, if I feel pain, I obviously don't want it.
1:04:09 K: I am asking a question, you are not answering me. I am asking you what makes you feel insecure.
1:04:18 S: Yes, because I feel pain, I get hurt.
1:04:20 K: So getting hurt makes you feel insecure?
1:04:24 S: I think insecurity means that.
1:04:27 K: So insecurity means getting hurt, right?
1:04:31 S: Having fears, having doubts, yes.
1:04:33 K: Hurt. Keep to that word. What gets hurt?
1:04:41 S: My feelings, my emotions.
1:04:43 K: Yes, what are those?
1:04:47 S: An idea which you've built.
1:04:49 K: You see, he is being clever, he doesn't answer these questions, he doesn't go into it, he just throws out words. I want to find out, when he says I get hurt, what gets hurt? He says just emotions, and puts a stop. But go into it deeper. What gets hurt?
1:05:13 S: Is it certain ideas that you've built in your mind?
1:05:19 K: Go on, explain, go into it.
1:05:23 S: You think that you are a certain thing, you are a certain way, and if someone tells you that you're not, you feel hurt.
1:05:32 K: Yes, which means what?
1:05:36 S: Especially when a few people say that you are very good in this, very good in that, and another person comments that no, he is not that good, this fellow is much better than him, his feelings get hurt.
1:05:48 K: Which means what?

S: His image gets hurt.
1:05:50 K: Go slowly, I understand what you have said. What does that imply? Examine it.
1:05:56 S: That means his pride is hurt.
1:05:58 K: Pride, and what else?
1:06:03 S: Image.
1:06:06 S: What he thinks he is, that gets hurt.
1:06:10 K: I think I'm a great man. Suppose I think that. You come along and say, don't be silly, I get hurt. What do you mean 'I get hurt'? He raised that question. He is not answering me, I am asking him.
1:06:30 S: I'm thinking about it. It might be being clever if I answer immediately.
1:06:41 K: Are you answering my question?

S: I'm thinking.
1:06:44 K: How long?
1:06:45 S: As long as whenever I feel I can answer.
1:06:49 K: I'm asking you a question. Now, how long will you take to answer that question.
1:06:56 S: I don't know if I know the answer.
1:06:58 K: So, you are waiting to find an answer. From where?
1:07:04 S: From what I know, from my experience let's say, or from what I've heard you say, maybe.
1:07:10 K: Experience, what others have said. So, you haven't found out for yourself why you get hurt.
1:07:19 S: That would again pose the question, who is yourself.
1:07:22 K: I'm coming to that, don't be clever. I'm coming to the point when you say, I get hurt. What do you mean by that?
1:07:35 S: You are the cause of getting hurt. Supposing I didn't think I was great, then somebody told me I was great, I wouldn't get hurt, but because I think I was great and somebody says I wasn't, I'll get hurt.
1:07:47 K: That's right, that's what I'm saying.
1:07:50 S: That's selfishness again. You think that you're the greatest, and you don't want anyone to be greater than you.
1:08:00 K: You don't want anyone greater than you, therefore you get hurt. There are lots of people who are greater than you and I, but why do we get hurt? They are greater, they are more intellectual, more beautiful, more money, more this and more that, why do we get hurt?
1:08:22 S: It's because of your own feeling that you are great. One person has told you you are great, and you are always having in mind that you're very great. And another person says, no, you're not great, there are hundreds of people greater than you. Naturally, you feel hurt.
1:08:36 K: I understand all that.
1:08:39 S: Is it because you set yourself on a kind of pedestal, and someone comes and pushes you off, and you fall down.
1:08:45 K: Partly, that's part of it. I put myself on a pedestal, pedestal being I've done something or other, which gives me a position, and you come along and push me off that position, I get hurt.
1:09:03 S: Doesn't that pose the question who is that 'I' who has put whom on the pedestal?
1:09:08 K: I am going to that. You are not answering my question.
1:09:15 S: I'm thinking about it.
1:09:23 K: What, sir?
1:09:24 S: A few minutes ago you were telling, a person builds a wall around him and finally he feels for it, and to break the wall he goes to another person, and if he is reluctant to help us what can we do?
1:09:43 S: He says, just a few minutes ago you said about the wall, and finally you understand that it's wrong and you want to break the wall. You go to another person for help and if that person is reluctant, or doesn't want to help, what do you do?
1:10:01 K: Will anybody help you to break the wall?
1:10:05 S: That you have to do yourself.
1:10:07 K: That's all, tell him that. Nobody can help you to break the wall, you have to do it, because you have built it.
1:10:29 S: But education does not completely lead to selfishness because as you educate yourself, you become more clever and try to help others, and as you help others, then you are not selfish.
1:10:44 K: Is that so, are the clever people helping the others?
1:10:51 S: Not all people who get educated help others.
1:10:54 K: Yes, that's just it. Now we better stop. It's now an hour and forty five minutes. Right? Shall we stop?
1:11:08 S: Yes, sir.
1:11:32 K: I see. Those people who are educated have greater fun than those who are not educated. All right, we better stop. Now will you sit quietly? Sit very quiet, don't move. Don't move your eyes, don't move your mouth, don't move your hand, just sit as quiet as possible. All right, sirs.