Krishnamurti - Thinking about the future causes fear

Krishnamurti Subtitles

RV80DS3 - Thinking about the future causes fear
Rishi Valley, India - 15 December 1980
Discussion with Students 3

0:18	Krishnamurti: I am sorry if I am late. My watch was not exact. So what shall we talk about?
0:43	Student: Can we continue last time's talk?
0:49	K: What did we talk about? I've forgotten.
0:52	S: About the robots.
0:55	Narayan: The robots. S: Comparison.
0:59	K: We talked about much more than that.
1:02	S: We left off at the point when you said, is there way of learning which is not mechanical.
1:08	N: Is there a way of learning which is not mechanical.
1:18	K: Are you interested in that? S: Yes.
1:23	K: Not you, but the older people, because you'd agree with anything, wouldn't you? Yes. Are you interested in that? S: Yes.
1:40	K: That you really want to find out a way of learning which is not – as we pointed out the other day – learning through books, learning through what other people say, learning through your own experience. Do you remember we talked about that. How the computer, as I told you, plays with a chess master. You know what a chess master is? S: Yes.
2:25	K: Do you really know what a chess master is? Yes? By Jove. And the chess master beats the computer first time, second time and third time, but the fourth time the computer beats the chess master, because each time he is beaten, the computer is learning, experiencing where he made a mistake. And so, after each defeat, he's learning. So on the fourth, the computer beats the chess master. As I said, that's how our human minds work First we experience, then, from that experience learn, and accumulate knowledge, then that knowledge is stored up in the brain as memory, and from that memory thinking arises. This was what we talked about. Do you understand so far what I've said? You're quite sure? S: Yes.
4:05	K: That is, we accumulate knowledge in order to act in life, in order to have a job, in order to do anything we must have knowledge. And we are conditioned or programmed to act this way – accumulate knowledge and act. This is what you are going to do in your life. You are being educated here, mathematics, geography, history, physics and so on, you will have learnt a great deal, go to college, if you're lucky, university, get a degree and get a job – if you're lucky. So what you have been educated into is to condition your mind in knowledge. Either your knowledge is mathematics or physics or biology and so on. That's clear, isn't it? So, we are accustomed, we have been trained to learn through experience, accumulate knowledge, and act. This is what you are doing now. In your daily studies, this is what you are doing. And you see what happens when the mind, your mind, has accumulated knowledge and is acting always within the area of knowledge. Have you understood that? Have you? Yes? Always acting in the field of the known. Clear? Right, sir? A carpenter, first he's apprenticed to a master carpenter, he learns several years, and then becomes a good carpenter. If you are going to become a doctor, you spend ten years to study, then you become a good doctor. That is, you learn, accumulate knowledge, and act. So, you're always acting within the field of knowledge. Get this point? Is this clear? What do you say, is this clear? So your mind, always repeating, repeating, becomes mechanical. So we were asking the other day if there is another way of learning. Have you understood the question? Is there another way to learn, without going through this whole process of accumulating knowledge, then acting? You've understood the question? Yes? Is it a Monday morning feeling? Now, what I'm going to say may be difficult, so give a little attention to what I'm saying. We are saying that there is a way of learning which is not mechanical, which is not repetitive. When I drive a car, I must learn all about handling the car. It may take me three weeks, but during those three weeks, with the instructor beside me in the car, he teaches me what to do. He teaches me to look at the road, three hundred yards ahead, watch what is happening all round, where there is a side-road, a car is coming. If a car is coming from a side-road quickly, I have to slow down. He teaches me all this, so that my brain gets used to driving. Have you understood that? That is, through constant repetition, I learn. And that is embedded in the brain. And then the brain acts as memory and then thought, action. Now I'm going to show you a different way of learning. Have you observed a bird on the flight? Have you? You have? What happens when you observe, when you see a bird, what happens as you are watching? Tell me.
11:16	S: The bird catches all your attention. You don't think of anything else.
11:23	K: You're watching the bird, right? Are you interested in this? Are they capable, sir?
11:36	N: Some of them are.
11:42	K: Now, I won't go through that. I'll show you something else. We'll come to that presently. Are you afraid? Answer me, would you kindly answer me?
11:58	S: Yes.
12:01	K: You are afraid. Of what?
12:04	S: Of the future.
12:08	K: Is that all? You're afraid of the teacher?
12:10	N: Future. He's afraid of the future.
12:13	K: Ah, future. Is the teacher your future?
12:19	S: In a way.
12:23	K: Do you see the joke, sir? No, you don't see it. You're afraid of the future. What might happen – whether you'll get a job, whether you'll pass your examinations, whether you'll be scolded by your parents if you don't pass and so on. That means what? Think it out. As we pointed out the other day in our two talks, let's think together. Don't let me tell you, and then you accept or reject, but let us have a dialogue about it, talk about it. Shall we? You are afraid of the future. Why?
13:23	S: Because I don't know what it holds for me. I don't know what it has in store for me.
13:29	K: What will happen to you, is that it?
13:32	N: He doesn't know what it has in store for him.
13:34	K: That's it. What is in store for you.
13:38	S: Yes.
13:39	K: What do you want the future to be?
13:45	S: A secure one.
13:48	K: A security. If you're guaranteed that security, would you be frightened?
14:01	S: I don't think so.
14:02	K: So who is going to guarantee it? Your government?
14:07	S: No, I have to do it myself.
14:08	K: So, how will you guarantee the future for yourself? Go on, answer my question. How?
14:22	S: I don't agree that if my future was guaranteed for me I would feel secure or I would be totally unafraid, because there are other fears, not just the fear of the future.
14:36	K: That's what he said, future. So there are other things of which you are frightened. So he's afraid of the future. What are you afraid of?
14:50	S: I'm afraid that when I leave to sink into the rut, fit into a groove, become part of everything else, not try and do anything about it.
15:04	K: So you are afraid to be caught in a groove, which is the social structure: marriage, family, quarrels, misery, all that. Is that what you're afraid of? S: Yes.
15:22	K: Tell me what else you're afraid of. Don't all sit there, tell me. Good Lord.
15:39	S: Right now when I'm sitting here and listening to you, I don't think that I am frightened now.
15:44	K: No, of course not.
15:46	S: But I think that once I walk out of this auditorium and go into the classroom, I've got some work to finish and if I don't finish that, I won't be in time for other periods, other classes. I'm frightened that if I don't finish that work then I might not be able to attend other classes. So that is a sort of fear, but which is not at the present.
16:07	K: No, of course not. Which is the same thing, which is, you're afraid of the future.
16:12	S: I'm not afraid now.
16:14	K: Of course not, old boy, naturally. you're sitting there, perhaps bored, perhaps interested, but you're not, naturally, afraid now. But when you go to the class, you're afraid of later on.
16:42	S: How do we know that what we are talking about now is not becoming another programme?
16:50	K: He asks, what you are talking about, doesn't it also condition the mind?
16:57	S: How do we know it isn't?
16:59	K: I'm going to show you. First, we are investigating, right? Do you know what that word investigate means? To trace out, to follow one thing to its very end. That's what it means to investigate, to explore, to examine. Now, we are examining what is fear. There's no conditioning the mind when you are examining, when you are critically questioning, sceptically exploring, there is no conditioning of the mind.
17:52	S: I know, but all we've learned so far has been a programme, has been a conditioning, so the question itself would be born out of that programme.
17:59	K: Yes, but look, if I may point out to you, you're not listening. I said we are examining. In examination there can be no conditioning. That's all. Now we're examining fear, not according to my examination, but together we're examining. Right, sirs? Have you understood so far? Right.
18:42	S: Excuse me, but why is there no conditioning in examining?
18:46	K: What?
18:47	S: Why did you say that when you examine there is no conditioning?
18:56	K: When you accept, you accept according to your pleasure or pain. Either you accept authority or reject authority. That rejection depends on your previous adherence to a particular stand, or you reject that. So you're always being conditioned in the pattern which you have lived. The pattern in which you have lived is your conditioning. But if you examine that conditioning, you are freeing the conditioning. You've understood? I am conditioned, suppose, as a Catholic. You know what a Catholic is. I am conditioned from childhood to believe various things, as a Catholic does. Now if I begin to examine, question, be sceptical, the mind is freeing itself from its conditioning.
20:26	S: Yes, but again, the 'I' itself is a conditioning.
20:29	K: No, there is only examination, not 'I am examining'.
20:37	S: I don't quite follow that. I'll give you an example of a computer. A computer is playing with a grand master, playing chess. And the grand master has made a move and the computer is examining that move. If you say together, there are ten thousand computers examining that single move. Maybe our question is just like that move, and we are so many computers examining that move.
21:00	K: No, listen, don't bring in the computer for the moment. We are saying that we are conditioned to fear. You are clear? We are conditioned to fear, and, in examining that, examination means investigating, looking, observing, questioning, not accepting. Then that conditioning is exposed. You're following this?
21:45	S: Not very clearly. I don't really know what you mean by examination.
21:49	K: Wait, I'll show you. Do you look at a flower?
21:55	S: Yes.
21:58	K: Do you examine it, observe it very closely, petal by petal, the colour of it, the stems, the perfume, the variety of the colour in the sun, out of the sun? Have you examined a flower like that?
22:18	S: Not really. K: You haven't, no. That's what I mean by examining. Looking, smelling, seeing it very closely, in minute detail how a flower is. That's what I mean by examine.
22:43	S: Does it also mean, by examining you aren't being mechanical because you are discovering.
22:50	K: That's right. While you are examining you are discovering. You've got it?
22:57	S: Yes, okay, let's take looking at a flower. Now, what comes to us from the flower are sensory impressions and we with our knowledge analyse it into smell, this, that.
23:10	K: No, that's not examining.
23:12	S: But, if you say you can smell the flower...
23:15	K: No, listen, old boy, look at it. When you look at a flower, what is happening? Tell me – if you have ever looked at a flower.
23:31	S: I haven't really, not in that way.
23:33	K: Then go and look at that flower over there. Not now. When you look at a flower closely – I'm showing you something, if you'd kindly follow this, you'll find a way of learning which is not mechanical. That's all I'm trying to point out. Look at a flower closely. Don't say I like or I don't like. Don't say it's beautiful or not, just look. And the more you look at it, the greater the details are exposed. You get this? Do you understand this?
24:43	S: When you look at something with a great deal of attention, then you just look at it.
24:51	K: That's all.
24:53	S: But immediately after that, you...
24:56	K: Wait, you have learned something, which is, when you are observing attentively a flower, there is only that flower, nothing else. – that's all I'm saying. You've understood that?
25:16	S: Yes, but what happens when your knowledge takes over?
25:20	K: First see what happens before knowledge takes over. Now wait a minute. Have you ever played a game called association? Have you?
25:41	S: We played it the last time you came.
25:46	K: I'm going to play it again. Now, just listen. By Lord, these people don't know a thing. It's called a game of association. I mention 'rose' – listen carefully – 'rose'. Then what is the association you have with rose?
26:20	S: Flower.
26:26	K: All right, go on, what is next?
26:30	S: Petals.
26:34	K: Go on, move.
26:36	S: Colour.
26:42	S: Shape.
26:49	K: Now, listen to me. Rose, thorn, pain, doctor, hospital, nurse. Now, wait a minute. Nurse, hospital, pain, thorn, rose. Now, watch it. That's how your thought moves, from one thing to another. Have you understood this? Wait, have you understood this? How thought goes from one thing to another, which is association.
27:40	S: When we look at anything we are playing this game always, not looking, but always associating.
27:46	K: That's it. You've got it? S: Yes.
27:48	K: Now, wait. Rose, look at that rose, don't immediately say thorn. You get it? I wonder if you understand all this. Have you understood this? S: Yes.
28:05	K: No, I don't think you have. When I say rose, somebody says thorn, somebody else pain and so on. Now, without saying thorn, just remain with the flower, with the rose, then you are examining the rose. This is too difficult for all of you.
28:44	S: We are so conditioned that the first thing that comes into our mind is you are playing with association.
28:50	N: He says association comes very quickly.
28:54	K: That is mechanical.
28:57	S: Yes, of course.
29:00	K: If you stop the mechanical process, then you can observe the rose. I wonder if you're getting something I'm talking about. You see how difficult this is? You haven't learned to think, you have learned to memorise. You have learned, in your classes, to repeat, which is not thinking. So we are together helping each other to think. Right? So I ask you what are you afraid of? You said future. You are not afraid now, but you are afraid of the future. What is the future? That you might not pass your exams, that you might not get a job, you might be scolded by your parents and remain poor, and so on. That's the future of which you are afraid. Now, what is fear? You understand the difference? You are afraid of the future. Are you listening? Then what is fear, by itself? Is this too difficult?
31:04	N: Are you saying that fear is always in relation to something?
31:07	K: Yes. Wait, I want them to discuss with me.
31:14	S: Fear is that thought about something which causes you pain.
31:22	K: Look, you are afraid the roof might fall down. You are afraid of the snake. That means you are afraid of something. You get it?
31:44	S: You're afraid of something which you haven't come across, which means fear is something which you've already come across.
31:55	N: I don't get it. What is it you're saying? Would you repeat?
32:02	S: When you're afraid, it's something which you haven't come across yet. Fear is something you have experienced.
32:16	S: She means to say, that you're afraid of something which has not yet happened, but fear is all the time in you.
32:24	K: I understand. Are you saying fear is always in you? Is that it?
32:33	S: You've already experienced fear within you.
32:41	K: Look, let's be very simple. I am afraid of my parents who might scold me. Let's keep to that. I am afraid of the teacher, the educator, who might say something to me. That is, I am afraid about something. You get that? Be clear. That is, I am afraid of the future, I am afraid what my parents might say to me, I am afraid of the teacher saying something. Now, is there fear without it being about something? Have you understood this? I am afraid of something, about something, but is there a fear apart from about, or the future? This is too difficult.
33:53	N: No, I think some of them will get it.
33:56	N: May I say something? K: Yes, go ahead.
33:59	N: If there is fear, fear is always related to something. You are afraid of the dark, you are afraid of the future, you are afraid of the teacher. Is there a fear...
34:10	K: ...which is not related.
34:12	N: ...which is not in relation to something? Can you think of a fear which is not in relation to something?
34:19	S: No, fear is related to something.
34:21	K: No, have you understood this question?
34:30	S: Sir, the question is: can I think of a fear which is not in relation to something else. Now, when I say I think about a fear, immediately I relate fear to something, I don't think there is a possibility of fear being not related to something else.
34:51	K: Just think it out. That is, my fear is in relation to something. Is there fear when there is no relationship to something?
35:06	S: There isn't. There isn't any fear without any relationship to something.
35:11	N: He says there is no fear without any relationship to something.
35:20	K: Come and sit down, tell me about it.
35:23	S: There can't be fear without it being related to anything else.
35:27	K: Do you know this?
35:30	S: According to me it's that.
35:32	K: What do you mean, according to you?
35:35	S: Because whenever I had fear, it's always due to something, there's always a reason behind it.
35:41	K: That's right. Now, go on.
35:44	S: I've never had a fear without anything being related to it.
35:47	K: So, all fear exists always in relationship to something.
35:52	S: Yes.
35:53	K: Now, have you discovered that, or you're just repeating it?
35:59	S: I think I've discovered it.
36:01	K: How have you discovered it?
36:05	S: Whenever I've had fear, it is always related to something.
36:09	K: That's right.
36:11	S: I've never had fear which is not related to anything.
36:14	K: So you have found something. S: Yes.
36:16	K: So, what happens when you have discovered – listen carefully – when you have discovered it's always in relationship to something, and there is no fear when it is not related to something. What is the state of your mind that says that? Careful. You understand my question?
36:48	S: I don't quite understand it.
36:55	K: What do you feel when you realise, when you understand, when you have discovered that fear only exists due to something? What is the state of your mind? At that moment you have no fear, do you?
37:17	S: No, sir. Unless I think about something that I've done wrong or something.
37:22	K: That means what? Think it out carefully, take your time, don't be nervous, take all the morning.
37:45	S: Until memory comes rushing by, you haven't thought of anything about the past. Until then, you're totally kind of fearless.
37:52	K: So which means what? The moment...
37:54	S: The moment memory comes rushing by...
37:56	K: That's it. What does that mean? You've found out what he says? The moment thought comes in, you're afraid. Have you discovered that? It's a great thing to discover this, that thought operates about something, either pleasure or pain or fear. Got it? So you have discovered that thought, thinking about the future, causes fear. Have you understood this? What do you say?
39:11	S: When you think about something and then associate it, then you are afraid. I've understood that. But thought itself, it arises from your experience that's stored up. So, I'm just asking you, does it mean that only because you've stored up your experiences that you are afraid?
39:39	K: Look, sitting here, I am not afraid of anything. But when I begin to think what my teachers might say, then I'm thinking about the future. Is that clear? So thinking about the future brings fear. Is that clear? Be quite sure that's clear. Then what will you do with your thinking? Have you understood? I'm sitting here quietly, I'm not afraid. But thinking about what might happen will cause fear, and I discover that. Then the question is, why should thought always operate?
40:59	S: I don't quite follow this. How do you know you're not afraid? Maybe you think you're not afraid.
41:07	K: He said so.
41:09	N: No, I think what he said was that when memory floods in, there is fear. And also she suggested that, when you think, fear comes in.
41:23	K: Of course.
41:24	N: So should thought operate always? We're not saying there's no fear.
41:28	S: But when you say you're not afraid...
41:31	K: I never said that. You're saying that.
41:33	S: Okay, if I say that I am not afraid...
41:35	K: No, be careful, sir. While you are sitting in this room, in this hall, you're not afraid. He said so. You didn't listen. So you have discovered something, a very great thing if you go into it quietly, that thought brings fear about the future.
42:13	S: But even that fear of the future has been put in there by someone else.
42:18	K: Wait, don't go off, whether somebody else put it into you. This is a fact. So you are learning, not from a book, not from somebody, you are learning by looking, by observing, by examining. You understand? Have you got it?
42:53	S: Yes.
42:58	S: Supposing I don't know what a snake is, and I look at it, and if I didn't know that it was poisonous, I wouldn't fear it. If someone told me that it's poisonous only then I would be fearful.
43:10	N: She's saying that when she sees a snake, somebody has told her it is poisonous, so she's afraid. But if nobody told her, probably she wouldn't be afraid.
43:22	K: Somebody, your fathers, your grandfathers, people have told you, be careful of the snake because it will hurt you. So, that is, you are conditioned by the parents, by the past, that the cobra is a dangerous snake. Now, that's a natural self-protective reaction, isn't it? I wonder if you understand that. I see a cobra, I run away from it. Why? Careful, think it out, step by step.
44:08	S: Because you know it's a cobra, and people have told you it's poisonous. and if you get bitten by it...
44:14	K: You might get killed.
44:15	S: ... or something serious might happen.
44:18	S: So you run away from it, you know something might happen.
44:22	K: Now, wait. That is, is that not natural? Wait a minute, sir, let me finish with this chap. Isn't it natural and healthy to avoid a cobra?
44:40	S: But it's not natural until some person tells you that it's poisonous.
44:44	K: No, just listen. My parents have told me, my grandmother, so on, that a cobra is a danger. I don't know it's a danger, but by looking at it I'm already self-protective. So it's natural to run away from a cobra. Whether somebody told me or not, I see this thing, I don't play with it. I see a tiger – I saw a tiger once, quite close. Nobody had to tell me that's a dangerous animal, it was dangerous.
45:30	S: But someone would have told you before.
45:34	K: Listen carefully. I was in the mountains and I saw a tiger, quite close. The very look of it, the power of it, the extraordinary vitality of it, told me don't touch it. People might have told me a tiger is dangerous, but the very seeing of it is enough to avoid it. I wonder if you understand this.
46:11	S: So, only seeing will help you to flee, only if it looks ferocious or something. If it looks calm, but yet dangerous I don't think you'll flee from it.
46:22	K: Parachute. That's a most unnatural thing. One has been trained to fall off from an aeroplane with a parachute. I'm afraid, naturally, but I get used to it. Then I'm not afraid. What are you trying to tell me?
46:51	S: I'm trying to tell you that when you see a tiger, it looks ferocious, and even you don't know it's dangerous or anything, by the looks of it you'll run away. But supposing it's calm, but yet dangerous.
47:06	K: By the look of it you know it's dangerous.
47:12	S: When you see a tiger, and you observe the tiger, the thoughts of what might happen do not come into your mind.
47:18	K: At that moment there is nothing, only danger.
47:24	S: But if you observe the tiger, the thoughts of what might happen won't come into your mind, and therefore there is no future, and so you don't feel frightened.
47:32	K: Of course. What are you all trying to tell me? What, sir? I am simply pointing out to you that thought says my father will scold me, my teacher will scold me, so thought creates the future and of that, fear arises. That's all I'm saying. Right? S: Yes.
48:21	K: So how will you prevent thought arising, about the future? Thought is necessary to drive a car, to write a letter, to learn a language, to learn physics, thought is necessary. Now, thought also creates fear, thinking about the future. Thought there is necessary, thought is not necessary here. Thought is necessary to drive a car, but I also see thought creates fear. So what am I to do, what is one to do? Think it out.
49:28	S: You prevent the thought from operating at that moment, say at this moment to prevent the thought of something else interfering between the dialogue we're having, I'm totally aware of the dialogue, that is, I'm totally listening to you, so there is no thought. That's one way of preventing the thought from coming into the mind.
49:50	K: I understand that – you're not answering my question. Carefully think it out: how will you prevent thought arising which might create fear? You've understood my question? S: Yes.
50:08	K: Now, answer it, examine it.
50:19	S: I feel I look at it and so then I start thinking about it. I just keep looking at it. If I'm scared of something, then I'll keep looking at my feeling of fear and then I won't think about it.
50:34	K: All right. How will you remain without thinking now?
50:42	S: I just listen to you and I don't think.
50:45	S: By getting absorbed in whatever you're doing at the moment.
50:51	N: She's saying by getting absorbed in what you're doing, and she's saying by looking at it, but not thinking.
51:01	K: That's enough, two statements. By looking. That is, looking at what I am doing, now, looking and being concerned in watching. What does that mean? Go into it slowly.
51:32	S: So that all the energy I have is totally concentrated on that.
51:37	K: Which means, therefore, when you are totally, with complete attention watching, thought doesn't arise. Can you do it?
51:57	S: Very rarely.
52:01	K: Very rarely, why?
52:06	S: Because I don't really watch.
52:10	K: No, I'm asking something. Why do you say rarely?
52:16	S: Because it requires a tremendous amount of energy.
52:20	K: Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. Now, have you found out for yourself why it happens sometimes?
52:32	S: Sometimes your mind doesn't feel like thinking of other things, but sometimes your mind is very excited. It can't stay at one thing too long.
52:43	K: I know that, I'm asking you why.
52:48	S: Because you occupy your mind with so many other things. You occupy your mind with so many other things. You're not doing only one thing at a time, you're thinking of many things.
53:00	K: All right, you've said something. Careful, go slowly. Your mind is occupied with so many things, therefore it's not capable of looking at something completely.
53:17	K: Right? S: Yes.
53:19	K: Have you found out why your mind is occupied with so many things?
53:29	S: I don't wish it to be so, because I know how much energy I'll need. It's so tiring, so I just sort of keep doing other things.
53:41	K: Why is your mind occupied at all with other things? Listen, you understand what I'm saying? That girl just said, when you observe something very closely, attentively, there is no other thought but that – right? But thought comes in presently and makes a lot of noise. That is, your mind is being occupied all the time with something or other.
54:19	K: Right? S: Yes.
54:21	K: Why? Carefully think it out. Why is your mind occupied with something all the time?
54:36	S: Sometimes you know that there is something ahead of you, something nice. You think about that. On the other hand, there is something also awaiting you which will do a little damage. You think of both at a time. So you're not able to concentrate on the present you're going to get, or the fear that you have.
54:56	K: Yes, it's occupied. S: Yes, sir.
54:59	K: I'm asking why. You're not thinking, all of you.
55:11	S: Your question was: why is the mind occupied all the time. I've thought about it now and I'm telling you that it's because I'm not listening, that's why it is occupied.
55:29	K: No. Your mind is occupied most of the time, isn't it, with something or other.
55:41	S: Sometimes it is not.
55:43	K: Of course, sometimes, rarely, it's not. But I'm asking, why is it occupied? You understand my question? S: Yes, sir.
55:54	K: Answer me. When it's not occupied what happens?
56:09	S: You're able to concentrate fully.
56:11	K: No. What happens? Look, I'm occupied with teaching, I'm occupied with writing, I'm occupied with talking, I'm occupied with... so many things. And if I don't occupy myself what happens?
56:32	S: The other things are neglected.
56:34	K: No, what happens to my mind?
56:38	K: My mind is unoccupied, isn't it? S: Yes.
56:44	K: Am I not frightened of not being occupied with something?
56:48	S: I feel insecure.
56:53	N: When he's not occupied he feels insecure.
56:57	K: That's it. When it is not occupied, you feel insecure. So, then the next step. What's the next step? Why does it feel insecure?
57:18	S: Because I'm so used to having something always occupying my mind.
57:22	K: Yes, which means what? Go on, you have said that. You have said if my mind is not occupied, the mind feels insecure. So what does it mean? Through some occupation you've tried to find security.
57:44	S: Yes, sir.
57:50	K: What's the next step?
57:56	S: I don't understand because I don't feel insecure when my mind is not occupied in some way.
58:04	K: Have you experienced or know when your mind is not occupied?
58:15	S: Yes, sometimes.
58:19	K: Don't say sometimes.
58:22	S: Yes, sir.
58:24	K: Do you know what you're saying?
58:27	S: I know.
58:28	K: Wait. Do you know when you are happy?
58:39	S: Yes.
58:43	K: Or you only know that you have been happy?
58:47	S: No, I know that I am happy.
58:51	S: Sir, I don't agree...
58:53	K: Quite right, don't agree. Have a dialogue about it. I'm not asking you to agree with me.
59:05	S: I know that I am happy only after it's already happened.
59:10	K: Quite right, but I'm asking her: can I say I am happy now – or it's gone already?
59:21	S: It's gone. Most of the time it is already gone and then I know. But sometimes it happens that...
59:28	K: I know, sometimes it happens. You keep on repeating 'sometimes'. Forget the word sometimes.
59:38	S: But I do. K: That's all I'm saying. I think we better stop, don't you? Have your minds been stretched a little? Is that enough for this morning? Right. Shall we sit quietly for a few minutes? Sit absolutely quiet, comfortably. Sit quietly. Right, sirs.