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SA61T3 - Why are we in such conflict?
Saanen, Switzerland - 30 July 1961
Public Talk 3



0:00 This is J. Krishnamurti's third public talk in Saanen, 1961.
0:07 If we may we shall continue with what we were discussing the last two times that we met here.
0:22 As I said at the beginning of these discussions, I think it is very important that we be serious because what we discuss or talk about are not merely ideas.
0:51 And most of us are apt to be in communion with ideas and not with what is.
1:00 And, the pursuing to the very end of what is, the fact—the actual state of one’s own being, pursuing it to the very end, as far as one can go, not with ideas but factually, to discover the essence, which is, after all, seriousness—it seems to me is most important.
1:58 Because we like to discuss, argue and be in contact with ideas; and it seems to me ideas don’t lead any¬where, they are very superficial, they are only symbols; and to be attached to symbols leads to a very superficial existence.
2:32 Whereas, if we could—which is quite an arduous task—if we could put aside or go through the ideas and be in contact with what is, actually the state of our own mind, our own heart, the actual fact of what is, and to penetrate that deeply, to go into it completely, thoroughly, to the very end, constitutes to me seriousness.
3:23 And, through that process of going to the very end is the discovery of the essence, and one does experience that totality.
3:52 Then our problems have quite a different meaning altogether.
4:03 I would like this morning, if I may, to go into the question of conflict, and go to the very end of it, if we can—not merely as idea, but actually experience whether the mind is capable of being completely and totally free of all conflict.
4:49 And to experience that, to really discover it for oneself, one cannot possibly remain at the level of ideas.
5:09 Obviously, one cannot do anything about the conflict in the world, the conflict generated by uncontrolled, by few, people throughout the world, and they are responsible for our destruction.
5:40 Probably we shall be destroyed by them or, perhaps, live. We are not considering the outward conflict for the moment because I don’t think we can do very much about it.
5:54 Whether Russia, or America, or somebody else puts us all into a war and destroys us, we can’t do very much.
6:06 But I think one can do something radical about our own inward conflicts, and that’s what I would like to discuss: why within us, inside our skins, psychologically, we are in such conflict?
6:32 Is it necessary? And is it possible to live a life in which there is no conflict at all, without vegetating, without going to sleep?
6:53 I do not know if you have thought about it and if it is a problem to you.
7:01 Because, to me, conflict destroys every form of sensitivity.
7:16 Conflict distorts all thought. Where there is conflict, there is no love. Conflict is essentially ambition and the worship of success.
7:35 We are in a state of conflict not only inwardly, super¬ficially inwardly, but also very deep down, deep in our consciousness.
7:51 And, whether we are aware of it; and if we are., what we do about it?
8:04 Do we escape from it through churches, through books, radio, having amusement, entertainments, sex and all the rest of it, including the gods?
8:25 Or, do we know how to tackle it, how to grapple with this conflict and go to the very and of it to find out if the mind can be totally free from all conflict?
8:43 Conflict implies, surely, contradiction—contradiction in conduct, in thought, in behaviour; contradiction which exists when one wants to do something and one does the opposite.
9:13 When there is love, there is jealousy, hate with most of us, and that’s also a contradiction.
9:26 Where we are attached, in that attachment there is sorrow, there is pain, and in that there is conflict.
9:38 It seems to me that whatever we touch brings conflict, and that’s our life from morning till night; and even when we do go to sleep our dreams are the symbols of our daily life.
10:08 So, when we consider the total state of our consciousness, we find we are in conflict—in self contradiction, the everlasting attempt to be good, to be noble, not to be this but to be that.
10:43 I wonder why this conflict exists, and why is it necessary at all?
10:51 And is it possible to live without this conflict?
11:06 As I said, we are going into it—not ideologically but actually be aware of the state of our conflicts, be aware of their implications, be in actual contact with them not through ideas, through words, but be actually in contact, in touch with them—is that possible?
12:03 You know, one can be in contact with conflict through idea, through an idea.
12:20 We are more in contact with idea then with the fact of conflict itself.
12:28 And, whether the mind can put aside the word and be in contact with the feeling of conflict, and discover for oneself why this conflict exists?
13:06 And, when one can’t discover why this conflict exists at all, if we are not aware of the whole process of our thinking, not somebody else’s thinking, but actually our own process?
13:42 Surely, there is a division between the thinker and the thought, the thinker everlastingly trying to control thought or shape thought.
14:06 We know this. There is this division, and as long as this division exists, there must be conflict.
14:39 As long as there is an experiencer and the experience as two different states, there must be conflict.
14:56 And, conflict destroys sensitivity, and conflict destroys passion, intensity.
15:10 And without passion, without intensity, you cannot go to the very end of any feeling, any thought, any action.
15:30 So, to go to the very end and discover the essence of things, you need passion, intensity, a highly sensitive mind —not a mind informed, not a mind crammed with knowledge—but a sensitive mind.
16:03 And you can’t be sensitive without passion.
16:11 There must be intensity; and this intensity, this passion, this drive to find out is, becomes dull, is made dull by constant battle within ourselves.
16:40 But unfortunately we accept conflict, struggle as inevitable. The extreme form of this conflict is mental illness, mentally ill; or escape from conflict into churches, into idea, into all kinds of superficial things.
17:10 Or, we accept this conflict as inevitable and grow daily more and more insensitive and dull.
17:25 So, seeing all this, is it possible to live without conflict?
17:43 Or, are we so deeply, heavily conditioned by society, by our own ambitions, greed, envy, and the urge for success, that we accept conflict as inevitable and being good as a noble thing.
18:18 It would be, I think, profitable if each one of us could find out for oneself what actually we think about conflict: whether we accept it, whether we are caught in it and we do not know how to get away from it; or we have so many escapes that we are satisfied with those escapes and make those escapes as noble things, essential things.
19:40 If we could brush aside all those and find out for ourselves whether it is possible for the mind to live, to be, without conflict, which means, really, to go into the question of fulfilment, self fulfilment, and the conflict of the opposites, and to see if there is any reality to the thinker, to the experiencer who is everlastingly craving for more experience, more sensation, wider horizons.
20:53 Is there only thinking and no thinker, only a state of experiencing and no experiencer?
21:04 The moment the experiencer comes into being through memory, there must be conflict.
21:14 I think that is fairly simple if you have thought about it.
21:26 I think that is the root of self contradiction because, with most of us, the thinker has become so important—not thought but the thinker, the experiencer but not the state of experiencing.
22:09 You see, that really involves the question, as we were discussing the other day, of what is seeing.
22:35 Do we see life, the tree, the other person, through ideas, through opinions, through memories?
22:57 Or, do we see the tree, life, or the other person, without ideas—directly be in communion with that person, or with the tree, or with life?
23:21 I think we see things through ideas, through memories, through judgments, therefore, we never see.
23:30 In the same way, do I see myself actually as I am?
23:47 Or, do I see myself as what I should be, or what I have been, and forcing myself to be something that which is not?
24:18 Which means, really, is consciousness divisible?
24:34 We talk very easily about the unconscious and the conscious, and the many different layers in the unconscious as well as in the conscious mind.
25:02 There are such layers, such divisions, and these divisions, these layers are in opposition with each other.
25:24 Shall we go through all these layers one by one and discard them, understand them, and all the rest of it, which is a very tiresome or ineffectual way of dealing with it?
25:47 Or, is it possible to brush the whole thing aside, the divisions, and see the totality of it all, the total consciousness, be aware of the total thing?
26:15 As I was saying the other day, to be aware of something totally, there must be a seeing, a perception which is not tinged by idea.
26:46 To see something entirely, wholly is not possible if there is a motive, a purpose.
27:02 I hope I am making myself clear; if not, we’ll talk about it.
27:11 If we are concerned with alteration, we don’t see actually what is.
27:23 If we are concerned with the idea that we must be different, that we must change what we see into something better, more beautiful, and all the rest of it, then we are not capable of seeing the totality of what is.
27:48 Then our mind is concerned with change, with alteration, with betterment, with improvement.
28:00 So, can I see myself as I am, as a total consciousness—not the divisions, not the layers, not the opposing ideas within consciousness, but feel the totality of it all?
28:41 I do not know if you have ever done any meditation. I am not going to discuss what is meditation now; but if you have done it, you must have observed conflict within meditation: trying to control the mind, trying to control thought from wandering.
29:08 So, there is conflict—the will to control and the thought that wanders off.
29:19 That’s part of our consciousness: the urge to control, to shape, to be satisfied, to find security, to be successful, and all the time seeing the absurdity of all this, the uselessness, the futility, and yet being caught in it.
29:51 And, most of us try to develop an action, an idea, a will which will resist, which will build a wall around ourselves so as to remain in a state of non conflict.
30:23 Now, is it possible to see the totality of all this conflict—the conflict that arises when there is the desire to fulfil oneself in action, through a family, through an idea, to become famous, to be somebody important, to be recognized as a great person, as a successful person?
31:19 Can we see the totality of all this conflict and be in contact with that totality of conflict—not the idea of the totality of conflict, not with the words I’m using, but the fact of this totality of human existence which is in conflict, with all its sorrows, miseries, aspirations, struggles, and see the fact of it?
32:09 In fact, live with it. You know, to live with something is extraordinarily difficult.
32:20 To live with these mountains, with the beauty of these trees and the shadows and the morning light and the snow—to live with it is quite arduous because you’ll accept it, see it day after day, like these peasants do, and get dull to it, never look at it again.
32:57 But to live with it, to see it every day with clarity, with sensitivity, with beauty, with appreciation, with love requires a great deal of energy.
33:14 And to live with an ugly thing equally requires a great deal of energy, without the ugly thing perverting the mind, corroding the mind.
33:31 One can get dull to beauty and let evil, ugliness, corruption destroy the mind equally.
33:42 But to live with both, as one has to, one has to have a great deal of energy.
33:52 And this energy is denied, destroyed when we are in a perpetual state of conflict.
33:59 And, can we live...
34:09 can the mind look at the totality of this conflict, live with it, not in accepting it or denying it, not allowing this conflict to twist our minds, but actually observe it, all the inward movements of our own desires which create conflict, not to deny desire?
35:01 I think it is possible—not only possible, it is so—when we have gone very deeply into the question of conflict, when you are, the mind is merely observing and not resisting, not denying, not choosing.
35:44 Then if one has gone as far as that—not in the sense of time and space, but actual[ly] experience the totality of conflict—then you will see, you will discover for yourself, the mind can live much more intensely, passionately, vitally; and such a mind is essential to discover, to experience, or to let that immeasurable something come into being.
36:46 A mind in conflict can never find out what is true.
36:55 It may talk everlastingly, jabber about God and goodness, spiritually and all the rest of this... bilge—I was going to use that word.
37:12 But it’s only a mind that has understood completely, totally the nature of conflict and, therefore, is out of conflict, it is only such a mind that is intense and, therefore, passionate to find out, to go beyond all conflict.
37:44 It is only then such a mind that can receive that which is unnameable, which is, cannot be measured.
38:08 Perhaps we can discuss or ask questions about this.
38:30 I think we made it clear at the beginning how to ask a question.
38:45 As I said, we can ask a wrong question and get a wrong answer, which most of us do all the time.
39:02 But to ask a right question is quite difficult.
39:10 Perhaps in the very asking of that right question we shall find the answer for ourselves.
39:22 To ask the right question implies that one must be in contact with the fact, with what is, and not with idea about what is.
39:35 And most of us are only in contact not with what is, but with the idea, with the opinion of what is.
39:44 Take, for example...
39:51 we say invariably, “How can we live in this world without conflict when my job depends on competition?
40:07 We have been educated to struggle, to become the next, to occupy the next position, next grade.
40:20 How can I live in this world without this battle?” Now, is that the right question?
40:34 Do please discuss, let’s talk about it. Questioner: (in French) KRISHNAMURT

I: The gentleman asks, What’s the nature of creation?
41:12 Sir, what is the nature of beauty? What is the nature of love? What is the nature of the mind that is not in conflict?
41:38 Do you want a description of it? And will the description, the word satisfy you? And, if it satisfies you, either you accept it or reject it. If you accept the word, then you are not actually experiencing.
42:03 So, you see how easily we are satisfied with explanations, which are actually words, playing with words, being satisfied with intellectual ideas; and out of that arises the wrong question.
42:32 I wish you would...
42:39 Sir, don’t you want to find out for yourself if it possible to live in this world without conflict?
42:50 Find out, not play with it, not play with the idea “Oh, is it possible, is it not possible?” but actually go to the very end of it to find the essence of a mind that is not in conflict.
43:06 Or, accept conflict with all the turmoil, misery, wars—you know, all the things that are going on in the world, within and without.
43:26 What were you going to say, sir?
43:47 Questioner: (inaudible) KRISHNAMURT

I: The gentleman asks, there are circumstances one must act, and that very action creates conflict.
44:15 And what is one to do? Is that right, sir? Questioner: Yes. KRISHNAMURT

I: Did I... ? Questioner: (inaudible) KRISHNAMURT

I: One feels one must stand against the outer world.
44:40 In the very opposing the world, there is conflict.
44:55 Sir, do we do anything because we like to do it?
45:04 Do you know what I mean?
45:13 I love to do what I’m doing, not because I happen to sit on an ugly platform and talk to a lot of people and get a little kick out of it.
45:30 That’s not the reason I’m doing it. I’m doing it because I like it. Even if there was one person or no person, I would still do it.
45:43 And if it does create conflict, what of it?
46:00 After all, none of us want to be disturbed. We like to create a particular island of our own and live in it, live in the backwaters of a river, comfortably with our ideas, with our security, with our houses, with our husbands, with our children, with our ideas and gods.
46:30 We don’t want to be disturbed.
46:39 And, somebody comes along and shakes us—life, a storm, an earthquake, a war—something happens to shake us, and we react, we build more strong walls, resist in order not to be disturbed.
47:06 And God ultimately is our last refuge in which there will be no disturbance.
47:18 And, if we are disturbed and out of that disturbance there is action, there is turmoil—what’s wrong with it?
47:34 And if you don’t want to listen, there is the door, open. I am not forcing you to do or not to do. What we are trying to do is to understand conflict.
47:54 And if one stands up against the world, what’s wrong with it?
48:02 And what is the world, after all, which we’re standing up against? We are standing up against respectability and the innumerable false gods and churches and ideas, against hate, greed, envy, and all the stupid things that we have invented to protect ourselves.
48:33 If you stand up against it, or if you feel that’s wrong, if it creates disturbance, what’s wrong?
48:49 Questioner: (inaudible) KRISHNAMURT

I: I’m afraid I haven’t quite understood what your question is, air.
49:30 Perhaps you’ll make it a little simpler.
49:40 Questioner: (inaudible) KRISHNAMURT

I: Is this what you mean, sir?
50:08 When one is in the state of actually experiencing, there is no conflict.
50:16 Whether one is young or old, in the state of actually experiencing something, in that state there is no conflict.
50:31 Is that...? Questioner: (inaudible) KRISHNAMURT

I: Sir, in the very moment of anger, in that moment when you are really angry, there is no conflict, is there?
51:05 In the moment of seeing something enormously beautiful, there is no conflict: you are in it completely, if that ever happens to you.
51:21 But a moment later begins, then the memory comes in, then, what to do about it, how to get more of it—so begins the conflict.
51:42 And, is it possible to live only with experiencing and not bring in all the past reactions to it?—that is, dying to the whole of yesterday.
52:01 Questioner: (inaudible) KRISHNAMURT

I: Yes. The lady says, yes, it’s possible if we live moment by moment.
52:15 You know, now just a minute. You see how we go off into ideas? “It is possible if we live moment to moment”—that is a conditional ‘if’, which means an idea, which means we have never died to anything, died to pleasures, to pain, to our demands, ambitions, to die to it actually.
52:57 You know, when death comes you can’t argue with it. You have to completely surrender, haven’t you—not surrender—there it is.
53:12 In the same way to die not to our sorrows, which is comparatively easy, but to our pleasures, to all the cherished memories, to every knowledge that we have accumulated.
53:42 But we’ll discuss that when we talk about death and all the rest of that.
53:52 Questioner: Please, how can we know if we are facing the real fact or the idea of the fact?
54:10 KRISHNAMURT

I: Right, sir. Just a minute. The gentleman wants to know... Probably you have all heard it, haven’t you? Audience: No. KRISHNAMURT

I: Oh. He wants to know, When do we know that we are actually facing the fact and not the idea about the fact?
54:38 How do you find this out? Now it’s a problem, yours, isn’t it? How will you find out?
54:55 Sir, have you ever looked, felt a feeling without an idea?
55:14 Questioner: Yes, if you look at it properly.
55:22 KRISHNAMURT

I: Please, just a minute. I know, I know, let’s... We’re unfolding it, we’re enlarging, let’s go into it a little bit.
55:33 I’ve a feeling of anger, or a certain sense of love and affection, a feeling of anger.
55:44 Do I know that feeling, or do I know that feeling through the word?
55:54 Do you understand the difference?
56:05 Questioner: (inaudible) KRISHNAMURT

I: The gentlemen doesn’t understand the question.
56:22 Do we—let me put it round differently—do we feel through ideas? Huh? Questioner: Yes. KRISHNAMURT

I: The gentleman says yes, we feel through ideas.
56:38 Wait a minute.
56:45 I say I’m an Indian or a Swiss.
56:52 By saying I’m an Indian, which is an idea, I get certain emotions of nationality and all the rest of that stupid business.
57:10 Now, it is the idea that creates the emotion, doesn’t it?
57:24 No? Because I am conditioned to think I am an Indian, and I have identified myself with a particular piece of earth, coloured earth, and that gives me certain sensations, and with those sensations I’m satisfied.
58:01 And, if I am educated differently, that I’m a human being, I’m not a particular person identified with a particular group or race, my whole feeling would be entirely different, wouldn’t it?
58:30 So to us words have certain connotations, importance, and through words we have certain feelings—a communist, a believer and a non believer, a Christian, and all the rest—those words give us a certain sensation.
58:55 For most of us, words are very important. Now, I am trying to find out whether the mind can ever be free of the word; and when it is free, what is the state of the mind which feels?
59:22 Am I making it fairly clear, or is that too... Am I not making myself clear? It may be a wrong question, I may be putting a wrong thing. Yes, sir? Questioner: There must be a condition. KRISHNAMURT

I: “There must be a condition.” Look, sir, the problem is this: we began talking about conflict this morning, and I want to find out if the mind is capable of ever being free from conflict and not play with words.
1:00:27 I want to find out, I want to go to the very end of it, which means, I must actually be in contact, not with ideas, but with conflict itself.
1:00:45 Right? So, I mustn’t be side tracked by ideas, I must go into it, feel my way into it, which means conflict, the pain, the suffering, the frustration, being in contact with it and not verbally side tracked, and not find excuses, justifications, but go on deeply, profoundly into this question of conflict.
1:01:39 Do I go into it verbally, with words, or how do I go into it?
1:01:57 You meeting my point? Questioner: (in French) KRISHNAMURT

I: But what has that got to do with it, sir?
1:02:12 You see, that’s why I asked this morning, how do we see?
1:02:22 Do we see through the screen of words or do I actually see by contact?
1:02:32 Do you understand what I mean? Contact, feel things. Look, sir, there is a difference: a hungry man wants food, and he’s not satisfied with the description of food.
1:02:55 It may be most marvellously described, but he wants food.
1:03:08 So, what is the state of your mind? Do you want to find out and go right to the end of this conflict, as a hungry man wants food?
1:03:26 Or, are you merely satisfied with the description of the state of mind which is not in conflict?
1:03:38 Now, if you want to go to the very end of conflict to find out if it is possible, you have to experience conflict, you have to know all about it.
1:03:54 One conflict, if you... will reveal the totality of all conflicts, if one can live with it, go in, study it, eat it, dream with it, sleep with it.
1:04:22 And that requires an intensity, that’s what I’ve been talking about. But merely live on the surface and discuss, that leads nowhere, that’s, that dissipates whatever little energy one has.
1:04:41 Questioner: (inaudible) KRISHNAMURT

I: I’m afraid I haven’t heard this...
1:04:58 . Questioner: (inaudible) KRISHNAMURT

I: I can’t hear it.
1:05:12 Have you heard it?
1:05:19 I’m afraid I haven’t heard it.
1:05:30 Would somebody who has heard the question repeat it? Questioner: (inaudible) KRISHNAMURT

I: Ah, I understand.
1:05:54 The lady asks, To go to the very end of conflict, as you are going into it...
1:06:13 . I’m afraid I haven’t understood it. Questioner: I think the lady was saying, If you go through to the end of conflict within yourself, must you accept the conflict in the world?
1:06:45 KRISHNAMURT

I: If you go into conflict, to the very end of it, must you accept the conflict of the world?
1:06:55 Is that it?
1:07:06 What can you do about the conflict of the world? Huh? And, is the world so very different from yourself? Can you divide the world so very neatly and definitely from yourself?
1:07:37 And, if you are going deeply into the question of conflict, into yourself, are you then concerned with the world?
1:07:58 I mean concerned, I don’t mean being indifferent.
1:08:05 I don’t know where you are laying the emphasis.
1:08:14 We’re rather dissipating this morning, aren’t we?
1:08:28 Questioner: (inaudible) KRISHNAMURT

I:

I: Sir, you see, I think there is something that is not understood by us, if 1 may so put it.
1:08:53 You see, for me conflict is very destructive inwardly as well as outwardly, and I want to find out if there is a way of living, being, without conflict.
1:09:23 I don’t say to myself it is inevitable, it is not inevitable, or explain that as long as I am acquisitive there must be conflict; I want to understand it, I want to go through it, I want to shatter it if I can, go through to discover if the mind... if it is possible to live without conflict.
1:09:46 I’m hungry. You understand?
1:09:55 And no amount of read books or anything is going to satisfy me. I want to find out, which means I have to understand this whole process of consciousness.
1:10:14 In understanding this consciousness which is me, I am understanding the world. The two things are not separate. My hate is the world of the hate; the hate which I have is in the world, whether in Khrushchev, Kennedy, or anybody else.
1:10:33 My jealousies, my acquisitiveness, my ambitions, my urges for success—can my mind go beyond all that, shattering all this?
1:10:47 And, if I say, “What is the way, tell me the way,” then I’m merely using the method in order to conquer conflict; and that is not the ending of conflict.
1:11:14 So, it means I must keep awake to conflict, be aware of it, watch every movement of conflict: my ambitions, my greeds, my compulsive urges, and so on and so on and so on.
1:11:41 Watch them. And perhaps I shall find out.
1:11:57 There’s no guarantee.
1:12:06 But I know very well what is essential to find out: an intensity, a passion, a disregard for words and explanations, so that the mind becomes very sharp, alert to see every form of conflict.
1:12:33 And that’s the only way, surely, you can go to the very end of conflict.
1:12:44 We’ll meet again day after tomorrow.