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SA62T10 - Freedom implies the total emptying of the mind of the known
Saanen, Switzerland - 12 August 1962
Public Talk 10



0:01 This is J. Krishnamurti’s tenth public talk in Saanen, 1962.
0:09 Krishnamurti: This is the last talk. It seems to me that there are such great changes taking place outwardly in the world.
0:23 I think most of us are aware of these extraordinary physical changes, and very few of us do change inwardly, deeply.
0:47 We follow a certain pattern outwardly, and also inwardly we create our own conceptual, ideational frame within which we function.
1:13 And apparently, for most of us, it is extraordinarily difficult to break through this ideational pattern.
1:27 We live from concept to concept, from idea to idea, and we think that this movement from idea to idea is a change, but if we observe rather deeply, it is no change at all, because thought - as we have gone into it fairly thoroughly during the last nine gatherings - thought does not bring deep changes.
2:18 It can superficially bring about a certain adjustments, conformity to a new pattern, but deeply there is no change.
2:33 We are what we have been and probably we’ll be what is to be.
2:43 So inwardly there is very little change.
2:52 And this outward change is a movement, always corresponding to the inward instability, inward uncertainty, inward sense of fear and the urge to escape from the dark, unexplored corners of our own mind.
3:26 As I said, this is the last talk, and if I may, I would most earnestly request those who are taking notes not to take them, because this is not a gathering where you are collecting, gathering a lot of ideas.
3:48 We are not dealing with ideas; on the contrary, we are breaking down ideas; we are shattering the pattern which the petty little mind has set for itself in its security.
4:07 So, if I may most respectfully suggest, don’t take notes but actually experience or live that which is being said.
4:30 And that means to listen, to listen easily, pleasantly, gracefully, without effort to what is being said.
4:42 Not that you must agree; we have been through all that exposition and explanation, which are all quite immaterial.
4:52 But I would like this morning to go into something which I feel is very important, which is, first, to realize the outward movement and the inward movement are the same; not to divide the outer and the inner; not to say the outward world and the inward world.
5:26 It’s like a tide that goes out and comes in. The tide can go very far out and that same tide can come in very, very, very deeply, but if we divide life as the outer and the inner, the spiritual and the non-spiritual, the material and the non-material and all the conflicts and divisions and contradictions arise.
6:04 But if we actually experience this movement as the outer as well as the inner, then there is no conflict.
6:18 Then the inward movement is not a reaction from the outer; it is not an escape from the world; it is not a withdrawal into a monastery, into an isolated tower.
6:31 It is a movement, both the outer, the external and the inward.
6:42 And when one has understood the significance of the outer, then the inward movement is not the opposite of the outer.
6:53 It is something that is without reaction and therefore can proceed more deeply and immensely.
7:06 And I think that’s the first thing to understand: not to divide the outer and the inner.
7:17 And there is a great deal of beauty in this non-divisible, unitary process.
7:29 And it is a unitary process. But to go into this unitary process more deeply, more extensively, one must understand this nature of humility.
7:55 You know, most of us actually, if I may point out, do not know what it is to be humble, to have that sense of complete humility.
8:14 Humility is not a virtue to be cultivated. The moment you cultivate humility there is no humility; you are or you are not.
8:26 And to have this humility you must understand this outer and the inward movement as a unitary process.
8:39 And having deeply gathered, understood this extraordinary meaning of this life as a whole, the life which is sorrow, which is pleasure, which is pain, which is seeking everlastingly some resting place and searching out something which it calls God or gives it another name, to understand all this, not reject it, not accept it but to understand it.
9:22 I mean by that word understand, to be in a state of choiceless awareness, to be aware, to listen - to listen to your wife, to your husband choicelessly; to listen to the wind among the trees, to listen that water flowing, rushing by, to see the mountains; to be aware negatively.
10:00 And then you will see out of this negative awareness, when there is an understanding of the outer and not treat it as separate, as something unspiritual, not worthy, but as a movement, as a total, unitary movement, then out of that comes a great sense of humility.
10:31 Because a mind that has no humility can never learn.
10:38 It can accumulate knowledge, it can gather more and more information.
10:47 Both knowledge and information are superficial, and I do not know quite why there is such pride, such arrogance in knowing, in acquiring knowledge.
11:09 It’s all in the encyclopaedia, and it is silly to accumulate knowledge which is used for personal pride and arrogance.
11:23 And when there is humility, which is not a thing to be achieved, but you will come to it naturally, easily, gracefully when this movement of the outer and the inner is understood as one solid total process.
11:52 Then you begin to learn. I mean by that word learning, a state of a mind which never accumulates, however pleasant the experience; a state of mind which never avoids a sorrow, a pain, and therefore it’s always in a state of learning; and such a mind has humility.
12:33 And you will see out of this humility comes discipline.
12:44 Because most of us are not disciplined. We conform, we adjust, we imitate, we suppress or sublimate, but such process is not discipline.
13:02 Control is not discipline; it is merely the urge of fear to conform, and therefore discipline destroys and makes the mind narrow, stupid, dull.
13:25 But I’m talking of a discipline that comes into being when there is this extraordinary sense of humility in which there is learning and this learning is discipline in itself.
13:44 You don’t have to impose discipline. I hope I am making this very clear because the so-called discipline of the soldier, the discipline that technique, offices, labour demands is efficiency; efficiency to kill and be killed; efficiency to function efficiently in a shop, as a bus driver or as a mechanic – all that demands efficiency and in order to achieve efficiency, one disciplines oneself, which is to conform to the pattern which will produce an efficient entity who will function in a particular job completely.
14:58 I am not talking of this mechanical discipline. We are talking of a discipline which is entirely different, and that discipline comes up by itself when one understands this extraordinary process of life as a whole, man as a whole, not in fragments, in fragmentation.
15:40 When we understand ourselves as a total entity, not departmentalized, not as a musician, as an artist, as a speaker, as a yogi and all the rest of it, but as a complete human being, then out of this understanding there is a learning, and that very act of learning is discipline in which there is no conformity, no adjustment and therefore the mind, not being disciplined to fit itself to a particular pattern is free, and in this freedom there is an extraordinary sense of discipline.
16:46 And I think it is important to understand this, because for most of us freedom implies to do what one desires or what one instincts, or what one calls, unfortunately, intuition.
17:15 But that is not freedom. Freedom implies total emptying of the mind of the known.
17:33 I do not know if you ever tried for yourself to free the mind from the known, or rather for the mind to free itself from the known.
17:50 One cannot free the mind… the mind cannot free itself from technological knowledge; you must have it.
18:06 It cannot free itself from the knowledge of where you live, but it can free itself from the accumulated tradition, experience, the various conscious, unconscious urges, compulsions, which are all the reactions of the known.
18:35 To deny, to put aside, to die to the known.
18:42 If you have ever tried it, then you will see what that extraordinary thing called freedom is.
18:59 Because unless there is freedom, a complete freedom, a total inward freedom in which there is no dependency, for dependency, like attachment implies a sense of inward loneliness, inward vacuity, which demands an outward acceptance of a relationship upon which it depends.
19:47 I do not mean that kind of attachment. A free mind is not attached, though it may have relationship.
20:01 But that freedom cannot come into being if there is no learning, if there is not that deep, inward discipline, not based on any pattern, on any conceptual ideation.
20:32 But when the mind is constantly freeing… dying to the known, then out of that comes a discipline, an austerity.
20:48 You know, for most of us, austerity - which is really a marvellous thing; not a dry, wretched discipline of destructive denial but an austerity out of a fullness, out of comprehension.
21:22 I do not know if you have not ever felt that extraordinary sense of being completely austere, which has nothing whatsoever to do with discipline, control, adjustment.
21:48 But you cannot understand this austerity, and there must be austerity because in that austerity there is great beauty and intense love.
22:05 It is that austerity that is passionate, and that austerity comes when there is an aloneness.
22:25 Now, we must be, I think, rather aware and see the difference between loneliness and aloneness.
22:42 Most of us, if we are at all aware, most of us are lonely.
22:55 You may be in a crowd, or with your family, at a party, or walking by yourself by a river, and you suddenly have this extraordinary sense of isolation, suddenly being cut off from everything, having no relationship with anything.
23:24 And that isolation is essentially a state of fear, and from that fear we do all kinds of things: turn on the radio, chase… drink - you know?
23:40 - do all kinds of things to escape, including the pursuit of God, and all the rest of it.
23:52 And out of that loneliness every action and reaction takes place.
24:05 That loneliness is entirely different from aloneness.
24:15 Loneliness is the result of being aware of all the influences and oneself being so malleable, so being a piece of mud which can be shaped into any state, but this aloneness is not the result of any influence.
24:51 It is complete freedom from all influence: the influence of your wife, the husband, of the state, of what you read, of the church, of the tradition, of your unconscious demands – being completely free of all that and in that freedom there is an aloneness.
25:29 Which is, again, that aloneness which is complete freedom from the known.
25:41 And when there is this sense of learning, which comes when we understand the total process of life, and that learning demands discipline; not the discipline of the church, of the army, of the scholar, of the athlete, of the man who is pursuing particular knowledge or specialist, but that discipline which comes out of deep sense of humility, and there cannot be humility if there is no aloneness.
26:45 So far, up to that point, we can either verbally, intellectually follow, because what has been said is reasonable, logical, sane, healthy.
27:07 Up to that point, if one is aware of the meaning of words, not only semantically but also go behind the words, one can feel our way into it.
27:28 But something else is demanded; something much more is required.
27:39 That is like laying a foundation to a house; that’s only a foundation and nothing more.
27:55 But that foundation must be laid, and that foundation must be laid with passion, with intensity, with beauty, and therefore with love.
28:12 Not out of despair, not out of conflict, not out of some desire to achieve a stupid result.
28:24 Which means, really, the mind is now in a state when there is freedom from the known.
28:44 I do not know if you’ve ever been aware how you gather, how every little experience, how every little information the mind holds.
29:03 The mind is a soil in which every root, every passing thought takes its root and shapes the mind.
29:14 Every experience shapes, gives a mould to the… forms a mould in which the mind can fit, and therefore experience, however real, however deep, however traditional, however ancient only limits the mind.
29:48 And when the mind has understood its limitation from this process, and easily, without any conflict, frees itself from the known, then out of this freedom, out of this laying the foundation, then there is a movement which is creation.
30:28 We are all seeking God.
30:37 I will use that word, because that word to the speaker has no meaning whatsoever, but we will use that word as most of you understand it.
30:52 For us, God is merely a belief.
31:05 You have been trained in that word, and that word spelled the other way as dog might be as good as your word God.
31:16 But we have been trained in it, from childhood to accept it. The church with its two thousand or ten thousand years of propaganda has conditioned the mind to believe, and we accept it so easily, as the other part of the world accepts that there is no God, the communist world, because they have been brought up in it; that’s another propaganda.
31:50 The believer and the non-believer are the same because they are slaves to propaganda.
31:58 And being slave to propaganda, the word God, the word God is not God at all; it is their concept, their idea.
32:20 Now, to find out if there is or there is not, you must destroy everything which is of propaganda.
32:38 Because religion now is put together by man, built centuries upon centuries, brick by brick by man in his fear, in his greed, in his ambition, in his despair and hope – it has been put together; put together from the ancient of times.
33:09 And a man who would find if there is or if there is not must totally destroy that, without a motive; completely erase from his mind every instinct; must completely cease search.
33:38 And it’s only when the mind is completely empty of the known, empty of the saviour, empty of all the gods that have been manufactured, built, carved out of thought, it’s only then, when the mind is free from the known and therefore in a state of complete quietness - not induced by breathing, by exercise, by tricks, by drugs of the latest kind, but completely quiet - which can only come into being when there is freedom from the known.
34:42 Only then, if one has gone that far, and one must go that far.
34:52 Really it is not far, there is no distance.
35:08 But to abolish distance, time must cease, and that time ceases only when there is the knowing of oneself as one is from fact to fact.
35:33 Then you will see that in this extraordinary sense of freedom there is a movement, a movement which is immeasurable, which (inaudible) beyond all concept.
36:13 And it is this movement that is creation, which is both love, death.
36:21 And when one has… when the mind has come to that, then it will see for itself that love, death and creation are the same.
36:44 And a mind that merely holds to the word, to the image, to the symbol, to an idea cannot ever go that far.
36:59 One must be free of the word and that is the beginning and the ending of all thought.
37:12 Questioner: May I ask a question?
37:26 K: Surely, sir.
37:33 Q: This freedom, isn’t it like the air…
37:48 K: Like the?
37:53 Q: Air around us, and have we not built a sort of… (inaudible) and if we can pierce that (inaudible)…
38:04 K: Yes, sir…
38:05 Q: … (inaudible)?
38:06 K: The gentleman asks: is not freedom like the air and have we not built for ourselves a tent like this to prevent that air from coming in; and if could only pierce that tent, then the air will come pouring in.
38:27 You know, similes – we’ll wait for the train - theories, a verbal picture is most dangerous.
38:51 It’s merely a theory because moment you say ‘if’ then you are thinking conditionally, you’re not actually in that state.
39:10 We’re not talking theoretically; we’re not imagining, theorising.
39:22 We are moving, as we explained from the very beginning of these talks, from psychological facts.
39:33 And if you avoid those psychological facts and do not face those psychological facts, then the tent, the air, the soul, and all these theories come tumbling in and you are destroyed.
39:52 Sir, what is the good of telling a man who is desperately hungry, what’s the good of telling him or describing to him the lovely dishes and the various savour… and all the rest of it?
40:10 He wants food.
40:17 And most theories are merely descriptions to a man who is hungry.
40:26 And unfortunately, most of us are not hungry; I mean psychologically hungry - most of us have had our breakfast, and probably will have our lunch and dinner today, tomorrow.
40:51 But most of us are well-fed psychologically because we have our experiences; we have found shelters in belief, in dogma.
41:07 We have securities - we belong to this group or that group, to this church or that church.
41:19 And when we are discontent, which is a very rare thing, then if we are discontent, we promptly destroy that by seeking something which will give us immediate satisfaction.
41:34 But to remain tremendously psychologically hungry, without going insane, without becoming neurotic; to remain in that state of hunger.
41:56 Not how to feed that hunger; the moment you try to feed that hunger, you are lost.
42:05 You can feed it very easily by your words, by your theories, by books, churches, oh, anything.
42:14 But to remain in that state of deep hunger, which is like a burning flame so that you will all the time destroy, destroy so as to… out of this destruction there are ashes, complete ashes, of not despair; and then out of that emptiness something real can take place.
42:44 Q: May I put one question, sir? You spoke of change and change is an enormous… (inaudible); do we come to it fully armed with (inaudible) or…
43:09 K: Make it brief, sir.
43:11 Q: Do we come to the problem of change with an attitude, a state of inquiry; the enquiry that is not… (inaudible) is that the approach to change?
43:36 K: Please make your questions brief, because I have to repeat these questions.
43:43 And if I repeat these questions wrongly, please correct.
43:52 The gentleman asks: Most of our changes have a motive.
44:01 The change of which you are speaking, is it instinctual, has it no purpose, is it merely the outcome of understanding.
44:33 Is that it, sir?
44:35 Q: I think you are… (inaudible).
44:38 K: What, sir?
44:39 Q: I’m not trying to interpret what you have said. I am merely trying to find out for the beginner, for a man with no pretensions what should be the state of mind before the problem of change.
44:56 Does he come to it with a purpose? Does he come to it saying, ‘I am going to change,’ or does he come to it saying, ‘Can I change?’ K: The gentleman asks, if I may interpret him: How is this change brought about; is it brought about through volition, through a motive.
45:28 Those are the only two things – by determination, by will, or through some form of subtle, unconscious motive.
45:46 Now, what is will? Don’t, please, theorize; don’t compare what somebody has said.
46:01 Let’s find out what it means, will. To do something, you want to do something - will.
46:10 Is it not desire? Many desires put together, many urges, many resistances, many demands gives one this extraordinary sense of volition, wanting to do something and going through with it.
46:45 It is the result of desire, it is the result of resistance, it is the result of many experiences put together, brought together into a sharpened instrument.
47:04 And we know through that will we can change. If I say, ‘I will not be angry tomorrow,’ if I exercise my will very strongly, I’ll prevent myself from being angry tomorrow.
47:25 But that is not change. That’s merely, as I pointed out earlier, conforming to a desired pattern.
47:42 For me, to me, any change brought about through will is no change at all.
47:56 It’s merely continuity of what has been in a different pattern, in a different framework.
48:07 If I change through motive, because my mother likes it, because society wants me to do it, because there is some profit in it, and so on and so on and so on, it is no change at all, because again that change is the result of persuasion, influence, reward, punishment and so on.
48:35 Now, if I understand both the whole process of motive and the extraordinary subtlety of will, if I understand it, and I have very carefully… we have very carefully explained what that word means, to understand.
49:00 I’m not going to go into it now. If I understand, if there is an understanding of the change through motive, through will, then when there is an understanding of these two processes and therefore putting these two processes aside, when these two processes die, then out of that understanding comes a change which is not premeditated, which is not brought about through influence, through various forms of urges and compulsion.
49:44 There is a change which is really an extraordinary destruction of everything known.
49:52 Q: It seems to me that it’s a bit of a trick. One must do it without wanting to do it. It’s a bit of a freak; if I want to change, I’d say to myself, ‘I want to change’ - I have a motive, I’ve listened to you.
50:32 It’s the same problem of ambition that I was asking last time. One doesn’t get out by wanting to get out, so it’s a trick.
50:37 K: No. I do not know what… Let me explain; sorry; let me repeat your question. The gentleman says this form of change that you are explaining is a trick.
50:52 He is using the word, not derogatorily, but with understanding.
51:01 Now, sir, you mentioned the word ambition.
51:14 Most of us are ambitious, and we know the meaning, not only a verbal meaning but the implication of that word, what is behind it: the competition, the ruthlessness, the lack of love and all the rest of it.
51:33 Now, how is one to be entirely free of ambition, to change?
51:40 You follow? Now, how is one to bring that about? Just listen to me quietly. You may not agree, or disagree, but just listen. I’m ambitious, if I am; I’m ambitious and I’ve listened, I have read and I’ve thought about it and I say how stupid it is to be ambitious - ambitious for God, position, power, wanting to be somebody and all that.
52:15 Then how am I to change? Change completely, not just change in one or two directions.
52:35 Most of our education from childhood is geared, is built round this idea of success, of being somebody, becoming somebody, achieving, and we never have learned for ourselves to love what we are doing; to love.
53:05 I mean by that word ‘love what we are doing’ without motive, without success.
53:12 You know, when you love somebody, you don’t think what you are getting out of that somebody; you don’t love because that person gives you money, position, or… - you love - if such a love exists.
53:30 Now, if I love what I am doing, then there is no ambition; then I’m not comparing, then I’m not saying somebody is doing better than I am.
53:50 I have put my… in that love what I… my whole heart, my whole being into it.
53:59 But we’re not trained that way, we’re not asked to do that. Society demands so many scientists, so many engineers, technicians and so on, and we are shoved through the gate of what we call college and we have to fit into that pattern.
54:29 But to love what you are doing implies the denial of ambition. Not through will, not through motive, not through a purpose; it happens when you love. Have I explained your question, sir? Right.
54:45 Q: (Inaudible)… how to not condition the children… (inaudible) children?
54:58 K: The lady wants to know how to prevent conditioning children.
55:13 Will you wait a minute before I answer it?
55:25 Because you also must be… your mind must be spinning at top level, therefore I must have rest.
55:45 (Pause) How can children not be conditioned?
56:00 Really, it’s quite a complex question.
56:10 I’ll try to make it as clear and as simple as possible.
56:17 First of all, you have to… the parent, the educator has to be aware of his own conditioning, obviously.
56:32 Then, how is one to prevent this conditioning of the child?
56:44 Society insists on conditioning the child.
56:51 Society I mean by government, religion, morality, the whole psychological structure which we call society is constantly impinging on the mind of a child, on the mind of all of us; we are that mind.
57:16 And you can’t, modern society what it is, you can’t keep your child away from school.
57:25 The school is not interested in unconditioning the mind; on the contrary, it wants it to be conditioned.
57:34 So the parent at home has a battle on, a war on between the desire to uncondition the mind of the child and society wanting to condition it.
57:50 You understand? The church wants to condition the child; the Protestants, the Catholics, the Hindus, and all the rest of the organized, propagandistic religions.
58:04 And what are you to do? And the child wants to conform, because it’s much more fun to be like the rest of the crowd rather than be something different.
58:20 You know all this. All join the boy scouts, all become something else. So what one can do is at home to point out, to discuss, to argue, to explain all the time to the child not to conform, not to accept, to question, to break through everything that society demands, and not become a mere delinquent child.
58:56 That’s very easy to revolt within the pattern, which is delinquency, but to understand this innumerable influences and to explain to the child when he reads a comic, when he listens to the radio, not to let it destroy his mind.
59:23 That demands your awareness; that demands that you yourself are working at your own breaking down of your conditioning, then you can help the child.
59:35 Q: (Inaudible)… genius… (inaudible) achieve… (inaudible) historic… (inaudible) but when these genius are not about does the new man, better man have to face entirely new problems unknown to us now in this march upwards or is it an end of everything?
1:00:15 K: I must take a rest. I am going to answer your question, sir. You see, unfortunately, I’m working and you’re listening.
1:00:35 If you are also working intensely, furiously, as I am doing, with delight, then obviously your brain will be rather weary, but apparently you’re all so eager to ask questions.
1:01:00 So I must hesitate before I answer.
1:01:08 As everyone not heard the question I’m afraid I have to repeat it: Is what you are talking about the end or the beginning of a new man.
1:01:35 If it is the beginning of a new man, will he go forward, will his problems be entirely different.
1:01:48 I don’t know what we mean by forward, making progress. I think you can make progress only in the material world. There is the wheel and the jet; the extremes - you know? - the bullock cart and the extraordinary thing called the jet plane, and the rockets that go to the moon and all the rest of it.
1:02:15 But is there progress in any other direction, inwardly? Please just listen. We’ll just wait till…
1:02:37 (Sound of train passing) Is there progress? That means the idea of time, idea that I shall become something psychologically.
1:03:05 And… You see, sir, to me, the idea of becoming, progressing, moving involves problem - problem.
1:03:36 A mind that is free, a mind that has understood deeply the question of time has never any problem any more.
1:03:48 Because there are problems, it will meet it as it arises, but in itself it is not… it does not project or create problems for itself.
1:04:15 But most of us are ridden with problems, burdened with problems.
1:04:25 I think we are approaching the question wrongly.
1:04:36 You see, when the mind is free from the known, it’s a new mind, it’s an innocent mind.
1:04:51 And how can that move forward or backward or have a problem?
1:04:59 It is in a state of creation. I don’t mean creation pictures, painting, all that business but…
1:05:14 You see, that’s why that which is immeasurable, the nameless is beyond time.
1:05:26 And how can we ask that whether it has problems, whether it will move forward, backward, what is its future?
1:05:40 What we have been discussing for the last ten meetings is to come naturally, easily and gracefully into that state.
1:06:00 Not invite it, because you can’t invite… a petty little mind can’t invite the immense.
1:06:11 All this pettiness has come to an end, then the other is. It can’t imagine what the other is. It can only project from its pettiness, from its shallowness, from its ugliness something beautiful, but that which is beautiful is still ugly.
1:06:31 So what we have been saying is, when all this psychological structure, which is society, which is… each one of us is that society.
1:06:43 When that is understood, when there is freedom from that, then there is that which is nameless, in which there is no time, no progress; it is.
1:06:53 Q: Sir, the mind… (inaudible) how can such a mind… (inaudible) understand… (inaudible) in a way which could be significant?
1:07:17 K: How can a conditioned mind understand truth which might be significant.
1:07:29 How can a conditioned mind understand what is true. It cannot. Sir, look, sir, make it very simple.
1:07:46 Suppose I am nationalistic; I am an Indian or a… - what? – I am nationalistic, I am bound to my country, to my sovereign, to my petty little nationalism; how can such a mind understand a state which is completely beyond all this?
1:08:06 It can’t. So what is has to do is to understand its own nationalism, break it down, destroy it, completely put it aside, and that’s an extraordinarily difficult thing to do.
1:08:24 Nationalism is merely an expansion of our petty little selves.
1:08:33 I identify myself with a country because I’m small and the country is great; the idea of nationalism is bigger; and I, a tribal entity, identify myself with something greater.
1:08:46 And that’s what we are all doing. I may not identify myself with my country, I want to identify myself and commit myself for a supreme action or I want to commit and identify myself with God, with an idea.
1:09:07 Nationalism or identification and commitment to an idea as God are same; whether you commit yourself to your family or to God or become a monk is exactly the same - it is still conditioned.
1:09:24 And to break down this conditioning requires, as we have gone into it, a choiceless awareness, watching every movement of thought; playing, watching, just watching.
1:09:43 Isn’t that enough for today? Pleasant journey.