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SA62T3 - Is it possible to be free of influence?
Saanen, Switzerland - 26 July 1962
Public Talk 3



0:00 This is J. Krishnamurti’s third public talk in Saanen, 1962.
0:08 Krishnamurti: We were talking the other day about knowledge, and the significance of knowledge and its impediment.
0:30 I think we went into it fairly deeply, and I would like, if I may, to discuss this morning what is virtue.
0:52 But to go into it very deeply one has to consider influence, the social significance of virtue, and authority, and aloneness.
1:27 All these things are implied in that word virtue.
1:38 So one has to consider first this whole question of social influence, how we are shaped by the sociological structure and… as well as the psychological structure of society.
2:15 We are the way we think, the way we act… - if I may use that word which we talked about the other day – responsibility, are all the results of the sociological and psychological structure of society.
2:43 We are not separate from society psychologically.
2:53 Whatever we think, whatever our reactions, thoughts, are the result of our conditioning, psychological conditioning whose structure is society.
3:15 And most of us, though we are educated in colleges, schools and so on to acquire certain technological knowledge in order to have a good living, we are left to the mercy of society.
3:50 Our character is shaped by society.
4:02 Our religious ideas are conditioned by society, the culture in which you are born.
4:13 So the influence of society shapes our whole being.
4:22 We are either Catholic, Jews, Protestants, Hindus and all the rest of it, with their dogmas, beliefs and superstitions, and within that pattern we cultivate what we call moral values.
4:39 And we are influenced by everything - by the food, the clothes, the climate, the newspaper, the magazines, the books, the radio, the whole structure of influence - consciously or unconsciously.
5:23 And without understanding or being aware totally of this influence, which is quite penetrating, which is quite imminent and constant, moral… or the significance of virtue loses its meaning.
5:53 Then we merely follow a pattern which becomes respectable, and respectability is not virtue.
6:03 On the contrary, respectability is a horror which has nothing whatsoever to do with that word which I call virtue, into which I shall go presently.
6:20 So one has to be aware, if one really wants to understand the extraordinarily virility and the vitality and the strength of virtue, one has to understand this influence, not only the conscious influence, the influence that we receive consciously of which we are aware, but also of the unconscious receptivity of influence.
7:14 And that requires much more understanding, much greater awareness.
7:25 And whether it is at all possible to be free of influence of the husband, of the wife, of the society, of the children, of everything about us.
7:40 Is it at all possible to be free of that extraordinary insistent influence that is going on all the time through propaganda, through books, through newspapers?
8:01 If we say it is not at all possible then the matter ends there.
8:09 Then there is no further inquiry and all virtue then becomes merely imitation, conforming to a pattern.
8:24 But if one inquires more deeply, is it possible to be free of influence, psychological influence of society, its moralities, its responsibilities, its values, its insistent demand that the individual shall conform to the pattern?
9:02 And the conformity to that pattern is called morality, and an immoral person who… is one who deviates from that pattern, according to society.
9:30 Surely one has to be free from the psychological structure of society with its changing moralities and with its acceptance of a pattern which it calls ethical.
9:57 One has to be aware of this whole structure both consciously as well as unconsciously.
10:05 And it’s much more difficult to be aware unconsciously. You can… consciously one can reject – most people do - shrug their shoulders and put aside the moral structure of society.
10:25 But unconsciously the influence, not only of the present century but also of the immense past with all its influence, with all its propaganda, with its tradition, with its pattern embedded in the unconscious.
10:49 (Loud noise in background) K; It doesn’t matter about that noise.
10:58 Do, please, pay a little attention. Can you hear what is being said? Many: Yes.
11:04 K: Then don’t bother about that.
11:19 You see, to be aware of the unconscious demands a certain quality of negation.
11:33 Please, I hope you are listening not merely to words, agreeing or disagreeing, but to see for yourself how far and how deeply you can go into yourselves, into the unconscious.
12:09 Because these gatherings will be utterly useless, without any meaning and a waste of your money, merely to attend to these talks and go away, casually attending and casually listening and going back.
12:37 And don’t say, ‘I can’t do it. It isn’t meant for me. I’m too old. Somebody else has to do it.’ Each one of us has to do it, to be aware of the unconscious, and that’s a very difficult thing to do because the unconscious is the hidden storehouse of the past, of the race, of the centuries of propaganda, of all its knowledge, its intricacies and so on.
13:23 It is the repository of all that. Now, the conscious mind cannot approach it, which is fairly obvious.
13:37 Through analysis, however clever the analyst or yourself be, you cannot go into it very deeply.
13:47 You can only scratch on the surface, which most analysts would agree and also the psychologists.
14:05 But if you want to go very deeply into the matter, into this unconscious, the conscious mind which has been educated, trained along a certain direction, technological knowledge in order to gain a livelihood, which has… which is the positive approach to life, what is called positive approach, such an approach to the unconscious is not possible.
14:42 I hope I’m making myself clear. If it is not clear please do ask afterwards and then we will discuss the matter further.
14:55 Now, the unconscious, which is the hidden, must be approached negatively.
15:07 Do you understand what I mean by the negative and the positive?
15:14 The positive approach, as most of us do, is through either to change what is according to a certain pattern or seeing what is to make it conform to a pattern so that our approach to the unconscious is positive, because we are so-called positive people, which we’re not.
16:00 Actually, we’re not positive people. This positive approach is a reaction to the negation. Right? I hope you’ll understand all this.
16:24 You understand? To look at something, to listen to something - to that wind, to that stream, to the flapping of that curtain – to listen to it without resistance, without condemning, without denial, just to listen to it.
16:51 In the same way, to listen, to see, to be aware of this totality of the unconscious, which is, the negative perception, seeing it negatively.
17:08 This negation is not the opposite of the positive; it has nothing to do with the positive; it’s not a reaction.
17:21 Do you understand what I’m…? I hope I’m making myself clear. It’s not a reaction; negation is not a reaction.
17:37 If I would understand something, my mind must be in a state of negation, not denying what you say – that’s not a state of negation.
17:50 That state of negation is not blankness, but listening to everything you say with my…
17:57 with totality of my being without resistance, without denial, without comparing, without judging – to listen.
18:07 In the same way, to be aware of all the responses of the unconscious, negatively.
18:22 Either you can do it so that the unconscious reveals itself totally immediately – and that’s the only way to do it – or you can do it step by step, little by little, taking every conditioning, every tradition, every value as it happens, as it takes place.
19:07 And that is a very long, tedious, boring affair, and that way you can never approach it totally.
19:20 Shall I go on?
19:27 You’re following? I hope I’m making myself somewhat clear.
19:41 And this awareness, this negative choiceless awareness, can break through the unconscious totally completely, breaking through all its conditioning of nationality, of its values, of the race inheritance, the social psychological conditioning of the present society.
20:25 You can break through all that immediately when you begin to understand the significance or the falseness or the truth of influence.
20:47 Because we consider it’s good to have… it is right to have good influence, that there is such a thing as good influence and that there is such thing as bad influence.
21:15 We have divided influence into moral and evil.
21:23 To me all influence is influence; it’s not good or bad.
21:33 Like all pressure it perverts, it distorts.
21:44 If one understands that – I’m using the word understand in the sense not intellectually, not verbally, but totally with all your whole being aware of this fact that a mind that is influenced in any direction is… cannot see directly, is incapable of perception.
22:15 If one understands that then the negative approach, the negative perception of the unconscious, if one is aware of it totally, then you break through; you are no longer a slave to any form of influence.
22:41 Please, don’t regard what is being said as something intellectual, as something not applicable, either that you’re too old or too young, that you’re too conditioned or that you are… innumerable responsibilities and all the rest of it.
23:12 Those are all sheer nonsense, escapes from the fact that you don’t want to understand this whole process of influence.
23:28 Because it is this influence that makes us conform, that makes us respectably moral.
23:40 And this morality has its own authority, the authority of tradition, the authority of society, the authority of a job, and so authority becomes very important in our life.
24:22 I mean by that word, the acceptance and the instinctual demand of obedience, the obedience which the mother expects from a child, the obedience of… to the priest, to a symbol, to a society, to the… to all that – obedience.
25:08 And to understand this… the nature of obedience one must naturally accept the obedience of laws, obedience of the policeman, keep to the right of the road, pay taxes and so on.
25:31 But I’m not talking about that. We are talking about the psychological demand to obey, in which is implied dominance.
25:45 Can’t you hear, sir?
25:53 Can you hear? Questioner: Some words at the end of your sentences are not clear.
26:08 K: Right, sir. You know, I’m not making a speech for you to listen.
26:29 What we are doing together - at least I hope we are doing it together - is to go into this question of virtue.
26:40 And if we understand virtue rightly it releases an enormous vitality, an enormous strength.
27:02 And it is only that vitality, that energy, that strength that is needed in order to bring about a complete transformation of which we talked at the first meeting.
27:22 So, please, listen to it as though you are yourself working and not I working for you.
27:46 Most of us are apt to go to a football and watch the players.
27:53 We don’t take part in it; we just listen and enjoy the play. I’m afraid it’s not at all like that here. Here you have to work as hard as the speaker, otherwise it has no value at all.
28:17 I mean by work, not only listen to what is being said and see if that is applicable to yourself and see the fact and see the falseness of the… or the truth of what is being said.
28:38 And to see the fact is not to deny, is not to accept, but be so vitally aware that every word, every meaning of that word, every nuance you capture and you apply, you look, you dig into yourself.
29:03 That’s what I mean by work.
29:12 And if you do it, you will see when you leave this tent you will be virtuous.
29:24 And I really mean by that: you will be virtuous.
29:34 So one has to understand authority, which is really the psychological demand to be secure both physiologically as well as psychologically: to be certain, to be secure, to know that you are following the right path, never to be in a state of uncertainty.
30:06 Most of us hate to be uncertain about anything, especially about ourselves.
30:19 But, you see, one has to be uncertain to find out.
30:35 One has to be free from all authority, from all following, from all obedience; and that’s a very difficult thing to do.
30:49 I am using the word freedom not as a reaction.
30:57 Freedom doesn’t mean that you are a prisoner and then you react to that and wish to be free.
31:05 And the reaction of the desire to be free is not freedom. It’s only when you understand for yourself your own imprisonment of words, of influence, of authority - understanding it, not reacting against it - then out of that understanding there is freedom.
31:37 So authority - whether of the priest, whether of the politician, whether of the… your next-door neighbour or of the book or of the specialist, and especially the authority of your own experience - all this has to be understood.
32:07 And, again, to understand something the mind must be in a state of negation.
32:21 To understand your child you must watch him at play, crying, eating, sleeping.
32:35 And when you compare what you’re watching with another child then you’re not watching that child. So in the same way, to observe the instinctual desire to obey, to follow, to conform, to imitate, that must be gone into it very deeply within oneself.
33:08 The language that one uses – the English that one is speaking, as the speaker is – it is obviously conformity to a pattern of language, but to deny that pattern and not speak English would be absurd and there would be no way of communicating with each other.
33:33 We are talking not of the obvious and necessary acceptance of certain facts to which you agree, but we’re talking of the psychological acceptances, psychological imitations, conformities.
34:06 And this conformity is essentially the desire to be secure, never to go wrong, and always seeking success in this world or psychologically to arrive somewhere, and therefore obedience becomes extraordinarily important, the acceptance of social psychological structure of society.
34:37 Then, if one has understood that, then you will find that virtue, the essence of virtue is aloneness.
34:55 If you’re not completely, totally alone you’re not virtuous.
35:04 I mean by that word alone a mind that has understood influence and is not affected by it, is not captured by it; a mind that is no longer seeking power and therefore no longer seeking authority, obedience, following; a mind that is alone from all psychological influence.
35:50 And that word alone is not a reaction; it is not an escape from the crowd; it is not becoming a hermit, a withdrawing, living in isolation.
36:12 Those are all reactions. And I mean by that word alone something entirely different from loneliness.
36:26 And I’m… it is not the occasion now to go into this question of loneliness; we will another time.
36:44 But this quality of aloneness - and it is very difficult to communicate the significance or the meaning of that word to another: to be alone.
37:09 One is never alone. You may withdraw into the mountains and live with a… as a hermit, but you have all the ideas, the experiences, the knowledge and the tradition of what has been, which you still when you are by yourself.
37:29 The monk in a monastery, the Christian monk in a monastery, is not alone; he is with his Jesus, with his Christ, with his knowledge, with his tradition, with his conditioning.
37:49 And the sannyasi in India who withdraws from the world and lives in isolation is not alone; he lives with his memories.
38:04 I am talking of an aloneness that is totally free from all this, and it’s only such a mind that is virtuous.
38:19 And out of that aloneness there is innocency.
38:26 Perhaps you will say, ‘That’s too much.
38:36 One can’t live like that in this stupid world, earn a livelihood, go to the office every day, have children, wives nagging, husbands bullying and all the rest of it.’ I think it is directly related to life of everyday action, otherwise it has no value at all, what is being said.
39:09 Because, you see, out of this aloneness with its extraordinary virtue, which is virile, which has an extraordinary sense of purity and gentleness - it doesn’t matter if it makes mistakes; that is of very little importance - but to have this feeling of being completely alone, uncontaminated.
39:45 It’s only such a mind that can go or be aware of something that is beyond the word, beyond the name, beyond all imagination and projection.
40:12 Perhaps we can talk about this, ask questions about this particular thing that we have been discussing this morning.
40:31 (Pause)

Q: It seems to me that… (inaudible) lies in listening and actual experiencing.
40:57 It has been increasingly evident to me that besides being heavily conditioned, each person is also bound by the confines of his own peculiar individual personality.
41:33 Listening, meditation may bring about awareness and understanding. But will not such understanding always remain purely on the verbal level if it not simultaneously combined with actual experiencing? Will such experiencing be of any total revolutionary value if it is not brought about in moments of actual crises?
41:47 As I see it, great sensitivity is needed for simultaneous listening and experiencing.
41:57 Is exposure to awareness or awareness by itself sufficient to bring about this sensitivity?
42:08 Can sensitivity be born or drawn out, or is sensitivity something that must be inherent to begin with?
42:20 K: Sir, as I have to repeat every question… (Laughter)

K: …because what the questioner has read out everyone cannot possibly hear, and as I have to repeat, it is impossible to repeat all that you have said, sir, all that you have read out.
42:47 But I am going to make a resume of what you have said, read, and if I am not… if I have not made a resume correctly, please correct me.
43:02 The gentleman says that in the very act of listening, if there is no experiencing then it remains at the verbal level which has of… no value.
43:23 To experience you need a certain sensitivity, and how is it possible to capture this sensitivity.
43:35 That’s right, sir? Bene.
43:45 Sir, listening and experiencing: listening is not an act of experiencing.
43:55 Please, I’ll explain what I mean.
44:06 If you listen in the way I’ve been attempting to explain what is listening, there is no entity or centre which experiences.
44:23 You just listen with all your being, and your being has no limits, is not confined to the word Krishnamurti.
44:39 When you listen to that river, when you listen to the birds, when you listen to the wind among the trees, when you see the mountains, if you see and listen from a centre, then you are experiencing and that experience only further conditions your past experiences.
45:07 But if you listen - that is, without the centre - if you see without translating what you see verbally, then the idea of experiencing ceases completely.
45:25 It is… the fact is only, not you are experiencing the fact.
45:34 Sir, this requires a little further explanation.
45:41 You know, you can look at a flower two different ways.
45:48 One way is to look at it botanically - that is, with knowledge, with all the information that you have gathered through books, through… and so on, look at the flower through your knowledge, and therefore experience through knowledge that peculiar quality of being the flower.
46:19 That’s one way. The other is to look non-botanically, to look without knowledge - if you understand what I mean ‘without knowledge’ – to look at something without knowledge.
46:38 To look at your wife, your children, the fact without all the previous knowledge, all the hurts, the enmities, the cruelties, the insults that one has received, the imposition – to put aside all that, which is part of knowledge, and to look.
47:03 In that look there is no you experiencing. That very look is the state of highest form of sensitivity.
47:14 A person who experiences a sunset is not sensitive.
47:24 He may say, ‘How lovely; how marvellous,’ and go into an ecstasy about it, but he’s not sensitive.
47:34 To be sensitive implies that state of mind in which there is only the fact and not all the memories about that fact.
47:47 And such a perception, such a seeing, such a listening has an extraordinary action in life at every moment.
47:59 Please, don’t be carried away my intensity or by the speaker’s enthusiasm.
48:18 Don’t get mesmerised, but watch, listen for yourself and find out.
48:26 Q: Without being an authority, do you not influence us through your words?
48:43 K: I haven’t quite understood, sir.
48:49 Q: Without being an authority, do you not influence us through your words?
48:58 K: Ah, yes. The gentleman asks: Without becoming an authority…
49:09 my becoming an authority to you, are you not influencing us through your words?
49:18 Are you not influencing us not only through words but through gestures, through your…
49:25 etc., etc. I have been saying that every form of influence, including the influence of the speaker, if you are influenced you are destroyed, you become a soldier, automaton, a follower.
49:58 But if you listen to discover for yourself – not by comparing, judging, evaluating, but to listen so that you find for yourselves the fact, what the actual fact is, whether it is true or false, then you are beyond all authority, beyond all influence; it doesn’t matter whose it is.
50:30 Sirs, when one is talking of influence we are talking of influence of everything and not of one particular series of influences, and therefore one has to be so intensely aware when you’re listening so that you’re not influenced, not pushed around.
51:00 This is not a propaganda. We’re not trying to convert you to something, which would be terrible.
51:11 We’re only pointing out facts, and you can take it or reject it.
51:19 But you have to listen to the fact, not because I say so, because these are psychological facts.
51:31 That’s a fact that a train is going by. You don’t have to listen to it. You may deny it’s not a train, but to observe that noise and the rattle of the train and not to resist it.
52:01 The moment you resist it you’re being influenced.
52:08 But to be aware of it as you’re aware of this noise of the stream and that whistle, the wind among the leaves – to be aware of all that without resistance, without denying, listening to every fact, whether it’s spoken by your wife, by your child, by the porter or by the speaker.
52:39 Then you’ll find out for yourself that you can step beyond all influence, step away, be out of this destructive influence of society.
52:59 Q: When there is total energy… (inaudible) psychological… (inaudible), when there is total integration of mind, emotion and mind, when all you are doing is relaxing, then in every moment there is communion with everything, no words between you and others.
53:46 Then there is the permanent love. Is that true?
53:48 K: Sir, you’re saying… – aren’t you? Please correct me if I’m wrong – you’re saying, aren’t you, when there is total integration of your mind, body, emotion, the total integration, in that state there is love.
54:07 Is that it?
54:08 Q: Yes.
54:09 K: Now, wait a minute.
54:10 Q: All your being is relaxing.
54:11 K: Ah?
54:12 Q: All our being is relaxing at the present in any moment.
54:19 K: Yes; when there is this total sense of integration at any moment, in that moment there is affection, love and all that.
54:32 You see, what does that word integration imply?
54:43 Putting the different parts together and bringing about an integration, a unification, a harmony between different parts.
54:56 Now, you cannot integrate the body, the mind, the feeling.
55:07 There is no integration because they’re always broken up. Nothing can be brought together which is broken up. Please, sirs, do listen to this a little bit. We’re all very fond of this word integration. Politically they use it and the psychologists use it and we also spin those words right along.
55:38 To integrate implies several things: an entity which is bringing about the various parts together, an outsider or an insider who is bringing the fragments in harmonious juxtaposition.
56:07 When there is an entity, an outsider, who is making an effort to integrate, then that very process of integration is a contradiction because there is a division between the entity and the things that are separate.
56:31 Are you tired? Many: (Inaudible).
56:40 K: Because such integration is not possible; it has no meaning.
56:53 Please listen to this. It has no meaning because there is a division between the entity, the thought, between the idea and the fact.
57:06 There is a division; there is a contradiction; there is a conflict to bring the various fragments together.
57:18 And there is no integration. We can talk about it, but the fact is not possible.
57:28 But if you observe, if you have gone into this question, if you have really understood the impossibility of bringing the fragments together - which implies effort, an entity who is bringing the fragments together - if you understand that completely then you will see there is a totally different operation taking place.
57:58 There is no entity at all and therefore there is harmony, therefore there is no contradiction.
58:10 And it only that state when there is no effort, when there are no fragments to be brought together, when there is this sense of total, sensitive awareness then there is a possibility of what we call love – or not… what we don’t call love.
58:34 (Laughter)

Q: Is there any place for technique? Obviously there is no place for technique in this.
58:47 Technique implies effort. Is there a place for technique in anything?
58:56 K: Is there – the gentleman asks – no place for technique in what you are talking about - is that right, sir?
59:08 Q: No. I said obviously there is no place for technique in this. Is there technique in anything?
59:19 K: I haven’t understood, sir.
59:22 Q: Technique, I believe, implies effort, it implies… (inaudible).
59:34 K: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
59:36 Q: This what you’re speaking about… (inaudible).
59:39 K: That’s right; that’s right. The gentleman asks: ‘Technique implies effort, achievement, conformity, discipline and what we are talking about denies all that.
59:59 Is this so?’ But now wait just a minute.
1:00:06 You see, surely you’re not conforming to what is being said.
1:00:21 You’re not trying to achieve a result, get somewhere.
1:00:30 All that implies effort. I don’t want… Please, this is an immense question of effort, following a system, a method, which we’ll discuss another time.
1:00:47 And you’re saying – aren’t you, sir? – that what we are talking about doesn’t imply any of this; it is so.
1:00:59 But to understand, one must be free of all these - techniques, methods, systems, effort, and not say, ‘Well, I’ll go and live effortlessly.’ It doesn’t mean a thing.
1:01:14 Q: Can there be any understanding if the unawareness of the vital part that ego plays in all of our actions is not known?
1:01:39 K: Of… obviously, sir. The gentleman asks: ‘Can there be a sense of awareness if we’re not conscious of our egotistic reactions and all the rest?’ Obviously.
1:02:05 Before I stop, I’d like to go back to what we were talking about this morning earlier, before the questions began.
1:02:28 You know, to be alone is an extraordinary state; alone without withdrawal, alone without becoming a hermit, alone without withdrawing from society.
1:02:58 But to be alone because you have understood influence, authority; you have understood the whole question of memory, conditioning, and out of this understanding there is an aloneness which has… which can never be touched by influence.
1:03:31 And there must be that aloneness. And you have no idea what an extraordinary beauty there is in it, what extraordinary sense of virtue which is vitality, virility, and strength.
1:03:48 And that requires an immense understanding of all our conditioning.