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SA65D5 - Understanding meditation
Saanen, Switzerland - 8 August 1965
Public Discussion 5



0:00 This is J. Krishnamurti’s fifth public discussion in Saanen, 1965.
0:13 Krishnamurti: What shall we talk about this morning? Questioner: Sir, may I? I wonder whether it is worth considering what is discussion.
0:29 What is the essence of discussion? And I don’t know whether it’s possible to discuss with so many people, but some of us discuss when you’re not available, in small groups, and what is real discussion might be important.
0:48 And related to that, I have a question. How can a person learn who is not so brilliant as another in learning?
1:02 I have found that in discussions, often the speaker is so brilliant and he gives what he learns – you know?
1:11 - so quickly that I can’t follow. Yesterday, for example, when you… (inaudible) that kind of situation. And then once the speaker has given his… what he learns, then anything you might say it seems, you know, it’s like putting a candle in the sunshine.
1:30 And whether it’s worth putting a question, leaving it… (inaudible) much longer.
1:37 I don’t know whether that’s possible.
1:42 Q: In the light of what you’ve been talking about in the last few weeks, I wonder if you might talk further about meditation in daily activity… (inaudible).
2:10 Q: Sir, as the essence of time was traced yesterday, would it be possible to trace down the essence of dying to every moment?
2:22 Q: Could you repeat the question as they arise?
2:24 K: I’m going to repeat it, sir. I’m going to repeat it. Mr David Young asked what do we mean by discussion.
2:42 As he discusses with different groups he finds that one or two people are brilliant and the rest are not, and from that discussion, because of the brilliance of the few, there is hardly any learning.
3:08 And so he says what is discussion, the intention of the discussion, and what is learning?
3:17 Then someone asks: would you please go into the question of meditation in daily life, not as an abstraction, not something that you do occasionally, but is it possible to be in a state of meditation throughout the day, naturally and easily?
3:41 The other question is: as we traced yesterday the whole… traced yesterday some of the movement of time, the questioner asks if we could this morning go in detail into the question of dying to everything, dying so as to be fresh and new every day.
4:11 Q: Sir, yesterday you have been pointing out the danger of… (inaudible) and therefore the possibility of changing what is.
4:39 Now, I’m sorry to ask: how can one deal with the extremely difficult of the… (inaudible)?
4:40 K: I haven’t heard the first part of the question.
4:48 Q: (Inaudible)… how can… (inaudible)?
5:00 K: Could you…?
5:01 Q: How can deal with the unconscious, traumatic, compulsive urges.
5:02 K: How can one be free from traumatic, compulsive urges, mostly unconscious.
5:10 Q: (Inaudible).
5:14 K: Yes. (Pause) Oh, no… (inaudible).
5:24 Q: There was a question yesterday about time.
5:38 The person asked what was the essence of time. I have not understood the meaning of essence… (inaudible).
5:45 K: Yes. What we mean… what do you mean by the essence of anything, essence of time, essence of love and so on.
5:54 What were you going to say, sir?
5:55 Q: (Inaudible)… so you told us sometime that we are always aware… (inaudible).
6:04 I’m not always agreeing with you because… (inaudible)…
6:16 K: Delighted. (Laughter) Q: (Inaudible). There are three possibilities.
6:31 For instance, the first one: if we… (inaudible).
7:03 K: I’m sorry, you’re making the question too long, sir, to repeat and I can’t hear every word that you’re saying, therefore the question is not clear.
7:34 Would you make it brief?
7:35 Q: There are three possibilities… (inaudible) with the same intensity, or it increases.
7:46 For instance… (inaudible).
7:58 Q: When you are aware of a conflict, one of three things can happen: it might disappear, it might continue, and it might increase.
8:38 Q: (Inaudible).
8:39 K: I can’t hear…
8:40 Q: One difficulty is having motives. Would you please speak about motives.
8:42 K: One difficulty is we have so many motives for all our actions. And would we go into that? Right. Now, that’s enough questions. (Laughter) K: Let us see if we can’t include all these questions in one question.
9:10 First of all, what is the meaning of these talks?
9:22 Why do you and I come here every morning to talk things over?
9:33 Either you treat the speaker as your authority from whom you’re going to learn, which is not the intention at all, at any time, at any level, of the speaker; or we come together to talk things over amicably, exposing ourselves inwardly to ourselves, because this offers an opportunity to uncover and discover and go beyond.
10:12 At least, that is the intention when we come here, at least, when I come and talk.
10:24 Not that I, that the speaker is laying down a law, a dogma, an authority, a belief, a way, but rather in speaking together we are only… we are listening to ourselves rather than to somebody else.
10:48 And so in listening to ourselves we discover an infinite lot, a great depth to all our words and meaning.
10:59 At least, that is the intention of these discussions here the last four or five times and also the talks which we’ve had during the ten days previously.
11:18 So if we treat these discussions merely as an intellectual, verbal battle of opinions then I’m afraid it’ll be of very little use.
11:36 What we are concerned is seeing this misery within ourselves and in the world, this confusion, the incessant battle between man and man, whether there is a different way of living altogether, not in certain areas, either economic, social or some other area but in the… but to live a life totally different in all the areas.
12:16 That is why we have these meetings here. And to learn is to listen; not to listen to the speaker only, but to listen to that river.
12:34 Listen to it as we are talking: listen to that river. Listen to the boy who’s shouting. Listen to your own thoughts, to your own feelings, so that you become completely familiar with them.
12:52 And becoming familiar is to understand, and to understand there must be care to listen.
13:04 Not to listen to your opinions only because that… you know very well what your opinions are.
13:12 Your opinions are your prejudices, your pleasures, the conditions in which you have been brought up.
13:19 But one has not only to listen to those conditionings, but also to listen to all the impacts, if one can, of the outward influences and reactions, and thereby through this listening, seeing, there comes a learning.
13:49 That is the intention of these discussions and talks.
13:59 Then the next question was: is it possible to meditate throughout the day without making meditation into some squalid affair of an hour or two or ten minutes, but sustain it throughout the day?
14:25 And whether it is possible through this meditation to understand the nature of dying and what it means to live anew.
14:47 And also the question was asked whether it is possible to put an end to all the unconscious or conscious trauma, drives, compulsions.
15:07 So we’ll limit ourselves this morning to those questions.
15:15 Perhaps if we begin to discuss, talk things over about meditation, then perhaps we shall include your question about the way of dying to everything so that the mind is made anew, and we shall also understand the compulsive urges that we human beings have.
15:47 Right. That word meditation must be used most guardedly, with a great deal of hesitation, because in the Western world, here in this part of the world - and it’s a great pity the world is being divided into the West and the East - in this part of the world meditation has very little meaning.
16:30 There… One knows here the word contemplation. I think contemplation and meditation are two different things. And in the East meditation is something that one practices day after day according to a certain method, to a certain pattern laid down by some authority, ancient or modern, and in following the pattern one learns to conquer, control thought and go beyond that.
17:22 That is what is implied in generally that word, the meaning of that word.
17:31 So we’ll forget for the moment what the East means by that word, or the West, which is not fully acquainted with that word either.
17:50 So let us put away both the East and the West and try to find out not how to meditate but a mind that is awake, aware, intense, and perhaps the quality of a mind that has no trauma, no suppression, nor indulgence, that is not controlling itself all the time or at any time, a mind that is free and therefore never lives in the shadow of yesterday.
19:09 So we’re going to consider that.
19:16 We must begin right from the beginning to understand this because the first step matters much more than the last step.
19:38 Freedom is not at the end but at the beginning, and that’s one of the most difficult things to understand.
19:49 Because without freedom there is no movement except within a very, very restricted area, that restriction being based on the image or the idea of organised pleasure.
20:18 Now, we are… I am not laying down the law or telling you what to do or what not to do or agree or disagree, but we have to see the idea, the principle, the image from which all thinking begins, from which all our reactions come, and without understanding that, it is not possible to be free to go far beyond the limitations of the mind or the limitations of a society or a culture in which we have been brought up.
21:19 So, if I may suggest, as we are listening, you are not… you have a double task: not only to listen to the speaker but also to listen to yourself, who is the speaker.
21:49 You see, we all want wider and deeper experiences, more intense, more alive, not repetitive, and so we seek experiences through drugs, through meditation or through visions, through becoming much more sensitive.
22:36 And the drugs help one for the time being to become extraordinarily sensitive: your whole organism is heightened; your nerves and your whole being is liberated from the pettiness of daily existence and that brings about a great intensity.
23:08 And in that state of intensity there are certain experiences where there is not the experiencer or the experience, there is only the thing.
23:25 There is only the flower, if you are watching that flower, not the watcher watching the flower.
23:34 Or there is only that projection of the background as a fact.
23:46 And so these drugs in various forms give to the body, to the whole organism and so to the brain, a quality of an intensity, of extraordinary sensitivity.
23:59 And in that state, there is, if you are a poet, if you are an artist, if you are this or that, according to your temperament you have an experience.
24:17 Please, I have not taken the drug or any drug because to me any form of stimulus, any form, whether you are listening to the speaker and therefore being stimulated or a drink or sex or a drug or going to the Mass and getting a certain state of emotional tension, all those are utterly detrimental because any stimulus in any form, however subtle, however repetitive, makes the mind dull because it depends on that stimulant, therefore the stimulant, whether it is the Mass, whether it is the drug, sex or some other stimulant, because it establishes a certain habit and thus makes the mind dull.
25:55 So most of us want wider and deeper experiences, therefore we meditate.
26:04 You’re following? Therefore we hope by meditation, by control of thought, by learning, by getting into some peculiar, emotional, mythological, mystical states, having visions, experiences, you have reached an extraordinary state.
26:30 You have not. So if you are using meditation as a means to something then meditation becomes another drug, therefore meditation creates a habit and therefore destroys the subtlety, the sensitivity, the quality of a free mind.
27:06 And most of us like systems to follow.
27:14 And there are so many systems in Asia which are being transported - I don’t know why, in God’s name - to this… to the West.
27:25 And everybody is trapped in those systems, their mantras and systems and all the rest of it.
27:33 Again by repeating constantly a series of words either in Latin, Sanskrit or in any other language, constant repetition makes the mind quiet, but dull, stupid mind.
27:49 A petty little mind repeating the prayer of a Christian is still a petty little mind.
28:00 It can repeat ten million times a day, it is still narrow, shallow, petty, stupid mind.
28:13 And meditation is something entirely different, if we understand all this.
28:26 So putting away drugs, rejecting drugs, rejecting methods, the repetition of words in order to reach some peculiar state of silence - which is really stagnation - putting away every form of desire for further experience - which is very difficult because most of us are so saturated with the ugliness, brutality and the violence and the despair of life.
29:21 We want something more than that so we are longing for new experiences, whether to go to the Mass outwardly or inwardly deeper experiences.
29:38 So one has to put all these away, and only then there is freedom.
29:54 And the manner of putting away these things are great importance.
30:06 I can put away not wanting visions because I think it’s too silly, but inwardly I may still want experiences.
30:16 I may not want to see Christ or Buddha or this or that person - that’s too obviously silly because it’s a projection of one’s own background.
30:26 I may rationally, logically reject that, but inwardly I want my own experience which is not contaminated by the past.
30:39 But all experiences, all visions, all… is contaminated by the past.
30:47 So I have to understand the depth, the height, the significance, the quality of the past, and in the understanding of the quality of the past I am dying to it, the mind is dying to it.
31:18 Right? The mind is the past; the whole structure of the brain with all its associations is the result of the past.
31:43 It is put together by time, two million years of time, and you can’t put it all away by a gesture.
31:58 You have to understand it as every reaction arises.
32:07 When… and as most of us have still the animal in us, a great deal of the animal in us, we have to understand all that, and to understand it one has to be aware of it.
32:35 To be aware is to watch it, listen it, not condemn it, justify it. So by becoming aware outwardly and inwardly, by being aware and riding on that awareness of the outward movement as a tide that goes out and a tide that comes in, riding on that, the mind then begins to discover its own reactions, responses, demands, compulsions.
33:16 And to understand these demands, urges, responses, if you condemn then you don’t understand; it’s like condemning somebody or a child because that’s the easiest way to deal with a child, therefore we condemn, and we think we understand.
33:38 We don’t. So we have to find out why we condemn.
33:47 Why do you condemn? Why do you rationalise? Why do you justify? Condemnation, justification, rationalisation is a form of escape from the fact, isn’t it?
34:13 The fact is there; what is, it is there. Why should I rationalise it? Why should I condemn it? Why should I justify it? When I do that I am wasting energy, therefore it demands, to understand the fact that you must completely live with it without any distance between the mind and the fact, because the fact is the mind.
34:51 So when you have rejected drugs, the urge for experience because you understand how we want to escape from this monstrous, ugly world into something extraordinary we invite experiences, and that again becomes an escape from the fact.
35:17 And as the mind is the result of the past, as well as the brain, one has to understand with the conscious as well as the unconscious past.
35:30 One can understand it immediately, not take time, months, years, going to the analyst or analysing yourself; you can understand the whole thing immediately with one look, if you know how to look.
35:56 So we’re going to find out how to look.
36:03 And you cannot look if there is any sense of condemnation, any sense of justification of what you see.
36:13 That must be completely clear. That to understand a child you can’t condemn it; you must watch it, watch it while it is playing, crying, laughing, sleeping.
36:37 So what is more important is not the child but how you watch the child.
36:52 So we’re now considering how to look… - no, not how to look, not the method - we’re trying to understand whether it is possible by one look – you know what I mean by look; not with your visions, with your eyes only, but look inwardly – with one look to understand this whole structure and be free of it.
37:29 That is what we mean by meditation, not… nothing else.
37:41 Because if I have… one has… the mind has come to this point because it has rejected drugs, experience, authority, following, repetition of words, control, forcing oneself in one direction and all that.
38:03 It has looked at it, it has studied it, not said it’s right or wrong; it has gone into it, observed it.
38:13 So what has happened? The mind now has become, not through drugs, through any form of stimulant, naturally alert and sensitive.
38:28 Right? It has become exceedingly sensitive. Let’s go into that word sensitive. Right? Am I…? Do you want to ask questions?
38:44 Q: (Inaudible).
38:46 K: Do you want… No, no, just a minute, please.
39:02 Are you listening to the speaker, or are you listening to yourself as the things are being said?
39:23 Q: I can’t see myself, as you speak of.
39:46 K: The questioner says: as you speak, I can’t see myself. When do you see yourself? Do you ever see yourself as you are?
40:05 Not here, but when you go out of the tent: the poses, the mannerisms, the pretensions, the vanities, the wanting to impress by your… – you know?
40:20 - what you are.
40:30 So we are now trying to see what we mean by sensitivity, which is of great importance, please - you understand?
40:46 - sensitivity of the body, the organ; sensitivity of the brain; and the total sensitivity.
41:05 You know, the essence of sensitivity is to be vulnerable – to be vulnerable.
41:19 Organically, physically, when one is in good health you are vulnerable, aren’t you, and you can reject any disease that comes near you.
41:43 But if you are weak, have disease, you’re not vulnerable.
41:54 You…? So vulnerability implies great health, physically, organically, healthy.
42:06 You may be ill, but you have vitality. You…? It’s not necessary to go into that if it’s fairly clear.
42:19 Then to be vulnerable inwardly, which means not having any resistance, not having any image, any formula, not saying, ‘This is the line I draw’ and I react from that line.
42:55 That’s merely a resistance. So such a mind, such an inward state of defence, resistance, acceptance, obedience, following authority makes the mind insensitive.
43:20 And when there is a fear of any kind – which is one of the most difficult things to be free of – fear of any kind makes the mind invulnerable, therefore fear makes the mind dull, insensitive.
43:48 Or there is no sensitivity when you are seeking fame - obviously - when you are dogmatic, when you’re violent, when you’re in a position of authority, use that authority by being rude, vulgar, oppressive.
44:20 All those obviously make the mind, the whole being insensitive.
44:27 Because it’s only a mind that is vulnerable is capable of affection, love, not a mind that is jealous, possessive, dominating.
44:43 So we understand now, more or less, without going too much into detail, what sensitivity we mean. I think we also all mean that. But to be in that state, not intellectually agree or say, ‘How am I to come to that state where I’m totally vulnerable and therefore totally sensitive?’ You can’t come to it by some trick.
45:15 You come to it naturally, sweetly, easily, without effort, if you understand all that we have said previously about drug, experience, ambition, greed, envy, all that.
45:34 So there is sensitivity only when there is freedom.
45:48 Now, freedom implies, doesn’t it, not freedom from something, but freedom per se.
46:07 And so, having understood the past, having looked or, as we said, by one look to be free of the whole structure.
46:27 And that’s what we are considering now. That is, to look, to observe, to be aware of the whole structure instantly there must be sensitivity.
46:48 And that sensitivity is denied if there is any form of image about oneself or about what one should be, and that image being based on pleasure, and therefore the mind that is seeking pleasure in any form is inviting sorrow.
47:21 So the mind that is sensitive, in the sense we are using - not only neurologically, biologically, but vulnerable inwardly, totally, without any resistance - has an extraordinary strength and vitality and energy because it’s not battling with life, neither accepting life nor rejecting life.
47:56 Now, when one has understood this whole phenomenon, gone through it all, then one look is enough to destroy the whole structure.
48:19 This whole process is meditation.
48:30 And in understanding meditation, one has to understand certain things, which is, control and identification.
48:50 Control of thought implies, does it not, resistance to every other form of thought.
49:05 I want to think about that one thing but thought wanders away like a leaf aimlessly wandering.
49:21 So I concentrate, I control, I make tremendous effort to push all thought away except that one thought.
49:34 That one thought is based on ultimate pleasure. So concentration implies, does it not, exclusion, narrowness, focusing on one thing and keeping everything else in darkness.
49:59 But when one understands what it is to be attentive – to be attentive – attentive with your body, with your nerves, with your eyes, with your ears, with your brain, with your whole total being; to listen to that aeroplane, the irritating noise of it when you want to listen; to be attentive to the colour, to the thought, to your speech, then, in that attention, there is a concentration which is not exclusion.
50:52 I can look, work on something without exclusion.
51:03 And there is another factor, which is, as a child is absorbed by a toy and the toy is more fascinating and therefore in that fascination the boy is completely lost, the child is completely lost, therefore he becomes quiet, not mischievous, not naughty, he doesn’t tear, run about.
51:32 The toy has become the thing that takes his mind, his body, everything.
51:41 The toy has absorbed him.
51:48 And we also, as the child, want to be absorbed by an idea, by our images or by the images that have been given to man as Buddha, as Jesus, as Christ, as… all the rest of it.
52:15 So where the mind is being absorbed either by a drink or by an image made by the hand or by the mind there is no sensitivity and therefore there is no love.
52:39 And the mind that is free is really an empty mind.
52:53 You know, we only know emptiness as space with an object in it.
53:09 We only know this emptiness in the tent because there is the outward structure of the tent, and that we call emptiness.
53:25 We do not know the space - not between the earth and Mars; we’re not talking about that – we don’t know the space without an object, and therefore we don’t know what emptiness is.
53:51 Because without… a mind that is not totally empty, without an object, is never free.
54:14 You know, this is very…
54:28 One can intellectually understand this that all design, all relationship, all action takes place within the space created by the object or by the centre or by the image.
55:02 But in that space where the object or the centre that creates that space… freedom is limited by that space between the object and its extension, and therefore there is never freedom in that space.
55:33 It’s like a goat tied to a post and it can only wander as long as its tether.
55:43 So if… to understand this nature of freedom one must understand the nature of emptiness and space.
55:56 And, again, all that is meditation. And only when the mind is totally empty and there is no centre which creates the space and therefore there is space then the mind is completely quiet.
56:14 The mind then is extraordinarily still.
56:28 And it’s only in stillness, which can only take place in this emptiness which is space without the object, all energy - all energy - comes into being without movement.
56:57 You know, when energy is no longer dissipated and comes together without any movement, there must be some action.
57:13 Right? A kettle that is boiling, if it has no escape, it must burst.
57:31 And it’s only when the mind that is completely still - the stillness is not stagnation, but tremendous vitality and energy - then there is an event, an explosion which is creation.
57:58 Not writing books – good God, the world is filled with books. I believe… I forget now the number of books there are every week produced, four thousand or more - I forget now the number – every week.
58:22 Writing a book, writing a poem, becoming famous is not creation; it’s… self-expression in no manner is creation.
58:38 And a mind that is not in that state of creation is a dead mind.
58:45 So one must begin, if one would understand meditation, one must begin right from the beginning, and the beginning is self-knowledge.
59:04 Self-knowing is the beginning of wisdom, and the ending of sorrow is the beginning of a new life.
59:15 I hope I’ve not mesmerised you.
59:18 Q: Sir, I come to this point; for example, when I observe… (inaudible) there is the movement that I observe… (inaudible).
59:48 K: Sir, have you listened to what has been said?
1:00:00 Have you? I’m not asking you personally, sir. Now, how do you look at a tree?
1:00:18 How do you look at…? Do you look at all at anything? Do you look at your neighbour, at your wife, at your children?
1:00:27 Do you look at your job?
1:00:34 Do you look? Or you look through your prejudices, through your ambition to fulfil, to become famous.
1:00:50 Or do you look at life as a Christian, as a Catholic, as a Protestant and so on, or as a communist?
1:00:57 How do you look? Not what awareness – forget all that’s been said. Do you look at anything with knowledge, which is, with your past, or do you look openly?
1:01:14 Just to look, sir. And apparently that’s one of the most difficult things to do: to look at the tree and not have distance between you and that tree.
1:01:36 You understand my statement? To look at that tree, if one looks at all.
1:01:50 And when you do look… (Sound of aeroplane) K: I’m sorry the aeroplanes and we are having competition.
1:02:02 To look at that tree, if you do look, and when you do look - do it, please, as we are talking; listen to that sound - do you look with your… with a resistance, with a line that you have drawn round yourself beyond which you will not go, a platform you have created for yourself through belief, fear, dogma, greed from which you look?
1:02:51 And therefore when you do look in that way there is a distance between you and that tree, therefore you’re not looking; you’re not observing; you’re not listening.
1:03:08 But when there is no line, a wall round yourself of which you may be conscious or unconscious, when there is no line, wall, image, a centre from which you are looking, then is there a distance between you and the tree?
1:03:40 Find out. When there is no distance you’re not the tree or you’re not yourself; there is no distance and therefore distance has a quite a different meaning.
1:04:08 You’re understanding all this? Look, sir, if one is married, family, job, as most of us are and have, we have built around ourselves walls of isolation, conscious or unconscious: knowledge as experience; I know more and you know less; I am the great man, you are the less man - you know? - we build round ourselves enormous structures, and through those structures we look at life, whether the structure be knowledge or self-importance or a craft, a technique that you have learned as a writer, as a poet, as a scientist, as this or that, lawyer, and through that you look, therefore the distance between you and the tree and the neighbour and your family is quite a different distance from the distance in which there is no centre, no line, no fortification.
1:05:38 Q: Excuse me, sir, in which sense did you use the word distance?
1:05:47 Has it a screen?
1:05:48 K: Now, all right. The question is: in what sense do you use that word distance? As long as there is a screen, the distance breeds conflict.
1:06:01 Right? Oh, my… Ah?
1:06:06 Q: Yes.
1:06:08 K: But there is a distance between that tree and yourself who have no centre, to reach there, to get to the mountain.
1:06:24 But is there a distance between the fact…
1:06:32 – ah. sorry – there is a distance when there is a centre of condemnation, justification, the censor and the fact, the what is - right? - but when there is no centre as the censor is there a distance between the fact and one… and… is there a distance?
1:07:03 You… Look, I’m angry.
1:07:14 Anger is a reaction and I know I’m angry.
1:07:21 It’s something outside of me. I am angry; I don’t say, ‘I am anger,’ but ‘I am angry.’ You’re following all this?
1:07:36 When I say ‘I am anger,’ there is no distance. That’s an… that is what is.
1:07:49 But when I say, ‘I am angry,’ there is a distance, and I then try to cover the distance by trying to do something about it.
1:08:10 But when I realise I am angry there is no space to do anything, but only the fact.
1:08:22 Then that… then what is becomes immensely important, not how to get rid of it - oh, come... - therefore, what is is completely transformed when there is no distance created by the censor.
1:08:49 Right, is that… that’s enough, isn’t it, for this morning?
1:09:07 Q: (Inaudible).
1:09:11 K: You are saying, sir, are you, what is the function of such a human being.
1:09:29 Q: I don’t like the word function.
1:09:31 K: All right. He doesn’t like to use the word function. What is… what significance has such a human being? What is the value to society, to the family, to culture, to… what importance has he as a human being - is that it?
1:09:56 None whatever. (Laughter) K: Ah, no, no, no.
1:10:10 We want to transform society; we want to alter; we say we must help another, we… - you know?
1:10:18 - all the rest of it. So what is the function of a man who is free and all the rest of it - function?
1:10:37 What is its relationship? What can he do? Now, why do we ask that question?
1:10:56 Why does that question arise at all?
1:11:01 Q: Is it because we see the death of the bodily self and we can’t see beyond that?
1:11:15 K: We only see the death of oneself and therefore we don’t see beyond that. Is that it? Not quite, sir. The question was: You are liberated, you are free, you are sensitive, alive, tremendously in the state of meditation.
1:11:31 What is the value to me of your state? Me who is suffering, anxious - you know? - all the rest of my human travail, what is the use of you to me?
1:11:49 Why do you… why do I ask that question? You are there like a flower, like a sun, like some extraordinary sense of beauty. You are there. and I say… why do I say, ‘What will you do to help me? What is the use of you?’ I say it because I want to get something of that, will you help me?
1:12:19 And I put out a begging bowl, a hand, so that you will fill it.
1:12:26 That’s all our relationship is. But if I realise that you cannot possibly help me, if I realise the beginning and the end of sorrow is the understanding of myself and not through you or through anybody or through any philosophy, through any system, then I… then you…
1:12:57 I am delighted you have reached the ‘something’ but you are out. I’m also…. You follow? Our relationship is entirely different. Bene.