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SA65T6 - Can conformity come to an end?
Saanen, Switzerland - 22 July 1965
Public Talk 6



0:00 This is J. Krishnamurti’s sixth public talk in Saanen, 1965.
0:10 Krishnamurti: It seems to me that we very rarely ask ourselves a fundamental question; and, if we do, we generally answer it according to our particular pleasure, fancy or a belief, and therefore the original question, the essential, fundamental question never gets answered.
0:54 We answer it according to our particular religion, to our particular technological knowledge or according to some mythical, theological concept of life.
1:17 And I think we do and we must ask fundamental questions and try to find out the original, true answer.
1:39 And I would like this morning to talk about conformity; that is, if there is anything original; not in abstraction, not as an idea, but as an actual fact in daily life.
2:11 The fundamental question is: conformity; to what extent can conformity continue, and is it possible to end that conformity altogether, and therefore the original begin?
2:43 I think this is a fundamental question because most of us do conform endlessly; that is, shape ourselves to a particular form, to a particular ideological mould, imposed by society or by our own experience or by all the economic, social, environmental pressures.
3:16 We’re always shaping ourselves — I think that’s a fact.
3:28 And can this conformity, which is so deep-rooted, both conscious as well as unconscious, can this conformity come to an end?
3:44 And it is only then that we can find out for ourselves what is the original; because I don’t see, unless we find out for ourselves what is the essence, the original, we shall live a life of counterfeit, an imitation, a life of second-hand.
4:17 And therefore, it seems to me, that it is a valid and a fundamental question to ask ourselves whether conformity can ever end.
4:36 I mean by conformity thought and the thinker always shaping themselves to a pattern; imitating, repeating, adjusting, complying to something that… to an idea, to a pattern, to a concept, to a belief, to a dogma, to a particular form of relationship.
5:30 Whether such conformity – which is the norm of our life, which is the everyday pattern of our existence – whether that can come to an end, and whether that coming to an end does breed disorder and therefore we must conform; or is there an ending to conformity and therefore the discovery of something totally original, not counterfeit, not second-hand.
6:10 Because most of our lives are second-hand, and we do not know for ourselves what is the original, if there is an original.
6:26 I know that word original is rather misused: original writing, original painting, original thought, original way of expressing; an author who writes an original book.
6:50 I do not think such… the word original can aptly be given to such activity.
6:58 And religion, throughout the world, however organised, however stupid it has become, ritualistic, without meaning, has always sought this original thing.
7:26 And apart from religions, with their dogmatism and their complex theology and absurd ceremonials and all the rest of that nonsense, whether a human being living in this world, surrounded by all the complexities of modern existence, whether he can find for himself, not as an experience but something really original; otherwise life becomes terribly monotonous, routine, boredom, a thing that is of very little significance.
8:30 So this morning, if I may, I would like to go into this question of conformity, in which is implied imitation, moulding thought according to a certain pattern – the pattern being the authority, whether imposed by society or put together by our own experience – and never coming near the original.
9:17 When we use the word conform, all that is implied: this counterfeiting process, imitation, acceptance, obedience, the desire to conform to a particular pattern; when we use that word, conformity, it implies all that.
9:59 Now, is it possible, first of all, to be totally aware of this conforming process, whether conforming to the past, to the present, or to a future idea, utopia, a concept, whether one is aware of it?
10:33 Then to ask ourselves is it possible to end this conformity; because if we would understand this whole process of conflict and effort, one must understand conformity; because effort implies conformity; and whether it is possible to live in this world without effort, which means without conformity.
11:16 Because one can see the more effort one makes, the more conflict, the more confusion, and hence the greater the sorrow, the greater the pain.
11:37 Whether it is possible to live without effort and therefore originally and therefore non-conforming.
11:56 But to come to that point, one must be aware first, I think – it seems so obvious – the nature of a mind that conforms.
12:13 Why do we conform at all?
12:23 Please bear in mind when we use the word conform, we are implying counterfeit, imitation, authority, adjustment, and all that is implied in that.
12:43 So why do we conform?
12:51 And conformity implies effort, and therefore in any relationship in which there is effort, there is no relationship.
13:09 If I make an effort to be kind to you or to be affectionate or make an effort to be polite, then it has no meaning.
13:21 Kindliness, gentleness, affection is a state of mind in which there is no effort; and to understand that state of non-effort, we must understand fundamentally this question of conformity.
13:49 And we do conform, outwardly as well as inwardly.
13:57 I conform when I put on this kind of shirt and trousers. Whereas in India I don’t; I put on something else.
14:08 I conform when I drive a car, to keep to the right side, and in England to the left side.
14:18 I conform when I have to post a letter.
14:27 But have I to conform to the poison of nationalism, to a particular pattern of existence, a particular way of thinking, because that has been imposed upon me by society in which religion, economy, as social influence, all that shapes my mind?
15:05 So I have to find out, if I would live a life in which there is no effort and therefore the establishment of right relationship and therefore right conduct, right behaviour; because where there is effort, all that is denied.
15:36 So I see where there is effort there must be conscious or unconscious conformity.
15:50 I see that. I may see it verbally, intellectually, but that’s too easy, too… has very little meaning.
16:01 But to be aware of it. Am I aware in my daily activity, in my daily relationship with my friends, family and all the rest of it, am I aware to what extent I conform?
16:31 And being aware of it, becoming conscious of it, knowing that I do conform, not merely superficially but very deeply, because the very nature of the unconscious is to conform.
16:57 So the mind is aware of all that, is conscious of it. And when we are talking together this morning, the speaker may be aware of it but that awareness becomes useless if both of us are not aware; if you are also not aware of your deep unconscious or conscious conformity.
17:40 Not adjusting to little things, but deeply.
17:50 And knowing conformity implies effort, and where there is effort there is no relationship of any kind.
18:05 And where there is effort there is imitation and conformity.
18:12 Now, one is aware of it; it’s so obvious.
18:21 Then one asks oneself whether it is possible at all to be totally free from the deep cause of conformity.
18:40 You understand? Superficially, we have to conform: you have to sit there and I have to sit here, unfortunately.
18:52 You have to put on this and do that and so on, so on; very superficially.
19:04 But to search this question out and to find the right answer; not an answer according to one’s pleasure – which is no answer at all – or according to one’s concept, formula, religion, dogma, all that becomes so utterly meaningless and stupid.
19:31 To find out, one has to inquire into this question of fear; and that’s why we conform.
19:48 If one has no fear of any kind, would you conform?
20:10 So one sees why one conforms, imitates, adjusts.
20:22 And superficially it may be necessary, and perhaps it is necessary; but deep-down, inside the skin, as it were, we conform because there is the fear of not doing the right thing, fear of going wrong, the fear of not living a totally complete life, the fear of not finding reality, God and all the rest of it.
21:19 So in all of us there is the root of fear; and I think it is very important to understand that, before we can answer the question whether it is possible to end all conformity.
21:41 I do not know if you have ever experienced fear, apart from the physical fear of meeting a danger; apart from that, has one ever realised what it is to be afraid?
22:11 Not as an idea. Not an idea which makes you afraid; or rather, the idea creates the fear.
22:25 You understand? I am afraid, let us say, of what you might think about me.
22:38 That is an idea which creates fear – right? – the idea which creates fear, and therefore it’s not…
22:50 I am not in relationship with the fact of fear itself. Are you following this? Am I making myself…? You know, an idea can cause fear, and with most of us it is the idea that causes fear; the tomorrow; the concept what tomorrow might bring causes fear.
23:30 So the concept becomes much more important than the actual fact of fear itself.
23:37 Are you…? So we try to change the concept, the idea, the formula, and are never in relationship with fear itself.
24:01 So either one is made to be afraid by an idea, a concept, or one is in contact with fear itself and not with the idea.
24:19 Right? But is there fear without idea?
24:28 Please, don’t just listen to me; don’t accept or reject what is being said but actually go through this: whether you are afraid – because most of us are afraid of our own peculiar fears – whether we are afraid because the idea has created it, that you might lose your husband, life, death, job, what’ll happen tomorrow, you’re…. if you fall ill again and… – you know? – all ideas.
25:29 Whether those ideas create fear or there is fear independent of idea.
25:41 Right? Is there fear independent of idea? Idea being organised pleasure.
25:59 Until I find that out, I cannot possibly answer this question of conformity.
26:13 You are following this? It’s not very intricate, but it demands attention and penetration.
26:30 So I see that there is no fear without the idea.
26:41 I see that thought creates fear.
26:53 So fear in itself is non-existent.
27:01 So I have to say… then I have to find out why ideas create fear.
27:10 Right? Are you…? Am I making myself clear?
27:21 Does thought create fear, or the thought which has created the thinker which creates fear?
27:32 You’re following all this?
27:42 Thought cannot create fear. It is the thinker separate from the thought, who in essence – the thinker – in essence, who is conforming and therefore he creates fear.
28:06 Right? There... let’s look at it differently.
28:17 There is the censor, the thinker, the observer, the experiencer and the thing censored, the thing observed, the thought, the experience.
28:40 So there is the thinker and the thought. And thought has created the thinker; because without thinking, there would be no thinker.
28:59 Please, this is not some fanciful, mystical philosophy or anything of that kind.
29:06 We are just observing our own daily life.
29:14 So the thinker is the idea, the memory, the pains, a bundle of memories, as the thinker which responds when there is a challenge as thought and action.
29:50 So I see – as you also must see – that the thinker, because he is creating ideas, he’s the centre of the idea as organised pleasure and avoidance of pain, he’s the originator of effort to conform, and that effort is based on fear.
30:23 Right?
30:34 So as long as there is fear, as long as there is the thinker making effort to conform, there must be effort; and effort is always to imitate, to become, to conform, to shape, and therefore this effort to conform is based on fear.
31:19 Right? So merely to cultivate courage has very little meaning.
31:31 But when one understands this whole structure of fear, then we are confronted with quite a different problem, which is: as long as there is a thinker separate from thought, there must not only be fear, there must be effort, which is to conform.
32:07 Right? And one is aware of that; and is it possible to only think and not create the thinker?
32:31 Right? Next... Are you…? Does this mean anything, or is a lot of words being put together?
32:43 Okay sirs, let’s begin again.
32:51 I see you are all rather puzzled about things.
33:00 One sees all one’s life is a routine, a conformity, a repetition and therefore boredom; and one is aware of that.
33:20 Then one asks oneself: is there an ending to all this? Not at death, but living; and to inquire into that, one has to find out the nature of conformity, why the mind always conforms, whether to a past experience or to a future idea or to a present action.
33:50 Conforming, implying imitation, repetition, adjustment, all the rest of it; and I see where there is an effort in… – and there must be effort where there is conformity – all relationship ceases.
34:07 And my life is constant repetition and effort and therefore there is no relationship at all.
34:21 Right? So I must find out whether it is possible to end effort and therefore have relationship, which means non-conformity.
34:39 And to find out what is implied in the cessation of effort, I must find out whether fear can come to an end; totally, not partially.
34:55 Fear, of which one is conscious or unconscious; which means I must… mind must inquire into the whole... inquire into the depths of the unconscious.
35:23 And is conscious mind capable of inquiring into something it has never touched?
35:31 Right? You’re following all this? Right? You know, the unconscious, various experts have described it, attributing to it various kinds of things; Freud, Jung and all the, you know, experts, they’re always...
35:59 But one needn’t go to the experts at all; if one is at all aware of one’s own activities, then it is fairly obvious what the unconscious is: it is the residue of the past, the past including the inherited memories and the acquired memories, the family memories, the racial, the communal; man’s total existence of two million or more years — it’s all there.
36:40 And that unconscious is part of that fear.
37:00 I may not be consciously afraid of anything, but deeply I’m afraid, oh, of so many things.
37:13 I may have rationalised death beautifully, but deep-down there is this extraordinary fear of coming to an end.
37:31 So in the unconscious there is fear; and to understand it not consciously – you can’t understand anything deliberately; you must come to it sensitively, with a freshness, with an eagerness, with an intensity.
37:54 That is, you must come to it with affection, with love, then only you’ll understand something.
38:06 So is it possible to end all fear?
38:16 One may be afraid of the dark, of coming suddenly upon a snake or a wild animal or a precipice; that is natural and healthy.
38:32 But there are all the other forms of fear.
38:42 So one has to go into this question whether the idea is more important than the fact, than what is.
38:59 And if one looks at what is and not at the idea which looks at the fact, then you will see it is only the idea, the concept, the future, the tomorrow that is creating fear, not the fact.
39:24 Right? So one sees that conformity, adjustment, adaptability superficially is necessary; but inwardly, deeply, conformity brings about effort and therefore imitation.
40:05 And a life that is imitative, conforming, making effort is isolating itself and therefore it has no relationship and therefore it breeds greater fear.
40:34 Now, I have somewhat… we have somewhat analysed the thing.
40:50 One can go into it much deeper, in more detail, at a greater length, but we have more or less touched the important facts.
41:06 Now, what is described is not the fact.
41:15 Right? The words are not the thing. I can describe, when you are hungry, what kind of food you should have or you may have, but the words is not the food.
41:44 So then, if one is directly in contact with this whole question, non-verbally but actually, then one begins to find out what freedom is, which is not conformity.
42:21 And one begins to discover that, as long as there is the thinker apart from thought, there must be fear, there must be effort, there must be conformity.
42:40 Effort is conformity, and therefore is it possible – please listen to this – is it possible to think only, and not create the thinker?
43:03 That is, to think intensely, reasonably, sanely, logically, without the thinker whose values, whose ideas, whose concepts are based on pleasure, and therefore the whole process of effort and imitation begin?
43:36 You are following this? To only think, and think only when necessary, not otherwise; that means think only when there is a question asked but the rest of the time – as we said the other day – being in a complete state of negation; which is the most positive state.
44:17 You are following? Am I making myself clear? Please don’t agree… don’t… This is one of the most difficult things to inquire into and feel your way into.
44:35 It’s not a matter of saying, ‘Yes, I agree’; it has no meaning.
44:49 If there is no centre as the thinker, the censor who gives time, who breeds time, and therefore the centre is the origin of disorder – right?
45:09 – not thought. It is the centre, the censor, the thinker that has been put together through time, that censor creates disorder; and as long as there is this centre, the censor, the maker of the effort, do what you will, there is no end to fear.
46:03 I’m afraid the tent is pretty hot.
46:15 Please don’t faint. Before it comes on, go out. Because we have to… This is rather a difficult task needing all your attention; you have no time to faint. (Laughter) You know, we are trying to get those two sides to be opened, to get more breeze, but unfortunately they cannot be opened till you have a nylon netting there, otherwise you’ll get all the flies.
47:07 Bien. So a mind that is burdened with fear, with conformity, with the entity that is called the thinker, there can be no understanding of the original.
47:38 And a mind demands to find out what the original thing is. You understand? We have said it’s God, but that again is a word invented by human beings in their fear, in their misery, in their desire to escape from life.
48:03 And a human mind demands – because it is free and therefore it demands, not for its pleasure or as a means of escape – what is the original; is there such thing as the origin?
48:32 And therefore, in that inquiry all authority ceases.
48:43 You understand?
48:50 The authority of the speaker, the authority of the church, the authority of opinion, knowledge, experience, what people say, don’t… — all that completely comes to an end; there is no obedience.
49:15 And it is only such a mind that can find out for itself – as a human mind, not as an individual mind, that… there is no individual mind at all; we are all related, totally related; and a mind that is totally related – totally; please understand this; it’s not something separate – a total mind, we are all; and we’re all conforming, we’re all afraid, we’re all frightened, escaping.
50:03 And to understand this original thing, one must, as a human being, not as an individual, as a total human being understand the totality of his misery, of his concepts, of his formulas which man invented through centuries.
50:30 And it is only when there is freedom, then you can find out if there is an original thing.
50:40 Otherwise we are second-hand human beings; and because we are second-hand, counterfeit human beings, we have no… there is no ending to sorrow.
51:00 So the ending of sorrow is, in essence, the beginning of the origin.
51:16 But to understand the ending of sorrow – not your particular sorrow and my particular sorrow; that… your particular sorrow and my particular sorrow is related to the whole sorrow of mankind.
51:30 You understand? Oh no, this is not sentiment; this is not some emotionalism; this is an actual, brutal fact.
51:47 And when we understand the whole structure of sorrow and the ending of sorrow, then there is a possibility of coming upon that strange thing which is the origin of all life — not in the test tube, not the scientist who discovers it, but that strange energy which is always exploding.
52:19 And that energy, because it has no movement, therefore it explodes.
52:29 (Pause) Sir, may I ask you a question, as you are unwilling to ask?
53:05 Have you ever experimented or have you ever done, have you ever collected all your energy; all your energy – physical, emotional, mental, visual, every form of energy – and be with it completely quiet?
53:42 You understand? You know, when energy has movement in any direction, that energy is being dissipated.
54:08 But when all that energy is completely still, there is a movement which is not… which is original and therefore explosive.
54:22 Are you getting this? You try it sometime, if you can do it, but it requires a great deal of intelligence, a great awareness; it is not a matter of pleasure and pain.
54:49 When, if you try to be completely... to gather all your energy without effort, when the mind is completely full of energy, without any friction, then, in that explosion, there is the original.