Krishnamurti Subtitles

Finding out what love is

Saanen - 26 July 1979

Public Discussion 2

1:02 Krishnamurti:
Before we begin our dialogue
1:09 I think we ought
to clear up some points
1:13 that arose yesterday
towards the end of the meeting.
1:24 We seem to be
blocking ourselves.
1:30 Some say it is not possible,
1:35 what you are talking about
can never be put in daily life.
1:41 ‘I have listened to you
for 20, 30, 40, 50 years,
1:46 and nothing has happened,
I am just the same as before’.
1:53 That is a block
2:06 that prevents each one,
2:10 or the person who says these things,
2:15 it prevents him
from investigating himself.
2:19 He has blocked himself,
saying, ‘It is not possible’.
2:24 That’s obvious.
2:27 And also there are those who say,
2:35 ‘I understand partially,
2:38 I want to understand the whole
before I can do something’.
2:43 Again that is a block.
2:48 Again that prevents your own
investigation of yourselves,
2:54 you are blocking yourself.
2:58 And there are those who say,
3:02 ‘What you are saying
is totally impractical,
3:06 why don’t you stop talking
3:12 and go away?’
3:16 Such people,
and I have heard this very often,
3:22 not only prevent their own
investigation of themselves
3:27 but also because one person
can’t do it himself,
3:32 he condemns
the rest of the world
3:35 – because if I can’t do it,
you can’t do it.
3:39 And so this goes on.
3:49 We’ll start the discussion...
3:51 As I said, please,
let me talk a little,
3:55 and then we will have a dialogue.
4:04 If we could, this morning
and the next four mornings,
4:13 realise,
if I may point out,
4:15 that we are not a whole 1000
or 2000 people in the tent,
4:21 but we are talking to each other,
single person.
4:27 You understand?
4:28 You and the speaker
are talking together.
4:33 When we two talk together,
4:35 it includes all the others
– bound to.
4:45 And I’d like to point out,
if I may again,
4:48 please, don’t hinder yourself
by blocking yourself,
4:55 by saying,
‘I can’t do this, it is impossible.
5:01 You are a biological freak,
5:06 and this is not applicable
to ordinary people’.
5:12 Or, ‘You have to have special genes
to understand all this’.
5:17 One finds innumerable excuses,
5:22 one finds every form of avoidance
5:26 of looking into
one’s own hindrances,
5:32 observing them closely,
5:34 understanding them
and trying to put them aside.
5:39 If we could do that,
5:42 then perhaps we could have better
communication with each other.
5:51 Please.
5:53 And also I would like to point out:
6:03 I think we don’t listen,
6:14 we don’t really try to find out
6:18 what the other person
is trying to say.
6:23 And listening requires
certain attention, care, affection.
6:31 If I want to understand
what you are saying,
6:34 I must listen to you,
6:37 not block myself all the way,
all the time.
6:41 I must care for what you are saying,
I must have respect,
6:46 I must have affection, love,
6:49 otherwise we can’t
communicate certain things
6:53 which are really very, very serious
and require a great deal of enquiry.
7:03 So if I may suggest
7:07 that we listen
with affection, with care.
7:15 All these dialogues
and what happened yesterday
7:20 indicated that we have
very little love for each other.
7:27 Right?
7:31 We want to assert
our own points of view.
7:39 We want to exercise our own
opinions and dominate others
7:45 by our judgements,
by our conclusions,
7:52 by our asserting that we have
listened to you for so long,
7:57 why haven’t we changed.
8:01 All that indicates,
it seems to me, and I may be wrong,
8:06 that there is no real love.
8:11 I am not blaming anybody,
I am just stating this.
8:14 Don’t get…
don’t ride the high horse!
8:24 And I think we should go
into this question deeply,
8:30 why we don’t listen.
8:34 Or we say, ‘Yes, I have listened’
– finished.
8:38 ‘I have already listened
to you for 20 years,
8:41 so over, I am not going
to listen to you any more’.
8:46 You don’t say that to a child,
do you,
8:49 whom you love?
8:52 He wants to tell you something.
8:53 He may be telling it
to you ten times,
8:57 he has already told you,
8:59 but the next time he says something
you listen.
9:03 You don’t brush him aside.
9:08 You are not impatient.
9:11 You love that child.
9:14 And I think in all these
discussions and dialogues and talks
9:20 we are missing
that essential perfume.
9:27 I don’t think we know
what it is to listen with love,
9:34 which doesn’t mean
that we shouldn’t be critical,
9:39 which doesn’t mean that we should
accept everything that is said.
9:46 It doesn’t also mean
that we agree or disagree.
9:49 You listen, listen with care,
with affection,
9:54 with a sense of communication
with each other.
10:00 And for that one must have love.
10:05 And probably
that is what is missing.
10:10 We are all too
terribly intellectual,
10:13 or too romantic, or too sentimental.
10:16 All that denies love.
10:24 So perhaps, if we could
this morning have a dialogue
10:32 of whatever you want,
whatever subject you want,
10:38 bearing in mind that
10:40 without this quality of affection,
care, love and compassion
10:49 we merely play with words,
10:56 remain superficial, antagonistic,
11:01 assertive, dogmatic,
and so on.
11:06 It remains merely verbal, it has
no depth, no quality, no perfume.
11:13 So bearing that in mind,
11:16 what subject would you like
to talk about this morning?
11:22 Q: Sir, could we continue with our
discussion yesterday of action,
11:27 and how to deal with mental
and physical disability?
11:32 K: Could you go into again,
11:34 as we began yesterday,
the questioner asks,
11:38 could we discuss action.
11:44 Q: Is it possible
to have thinking together
11:46 if only one person
wants to have it?
11:49 K: Is it possible
to think together
11:54 if the other person
refuses to think together?
12:04 Q: I have difficulty
in understanding
12:05 what you mean by registration.
12:08 In English we use the word meaning
to become aware of something,
12:12 as in registering an impression,
registering discomforts.
12:17 But you seem to use
or classify this recording.
12:21 Would you go into that?
12:22 K: Would you go
into the whole question
12:24 of what you mean by registration.
12:28 To register something,
to remember something,
12:32 to acknowledge,
like a tape on which you register.
12:37 Right?
12:38 Could we go into that?
12:40 Q: Why are we satisfied
in the way we are living?
12:48 K: Why are we satisfied
in the way we are living.
12:54 Q: What is the relationship,
or the difference,
12:56 between the nature of thought
and the mechanics of thinking?
13:01 One thought appears
to follow the other
13:05 even for no special reason,
13:07 and the movement of thought
can be violent,
13:12 even if the content of the thought,
you thought was positive.
13:19 K: I have not quite understood it,
13:25 Q: I am interested
in the mechanics of thinking,
13:28 and the difference
or the relationship
13:30 between the mechanics
and thought itself.
13:34 K: You would like to examine
the whole structure of thought.
13:41 Q: Not the structure
of thought itself
13:43 but the mechanics of thinking too.
13:45 K: Mechanics, that’s what...
13:47 We are using the word
perhaps differently.
13:52 We will use the word,
the mechanics of thinking.
13:57 Q: Because I noticed
13:58 that it is possible to have
neutral or positive thoughts,
14:03 but the mechanics of this thinking
is functioning very well.
14:12 K: I am not quite sure
I understand it, sir.
14:18 Q: I think he is saying
that there is difference:
14:22 inside the thought
could be positive,
14:24 but in the way it expresses itself,
14:29 Q: Yes. Maybe thought is surviving,
like animals in the jungle,
14:32 which is havoc,
14:33 even though the content
of the thought is positive.
14:51 K: Ah! Is thinking
always mechanical,
14:55 or is there a different kind of
thinking which is non-mechanical.
15:01 Q: No. That is not the same.
15:06 My thinking often
doesn’t flow very well.
15:10 There is violence in the thoughts,
in the mechanics,
15:16 but not in the content
of the thought.
15:21 Positive thought can be violent.
15:24 K: Positive thought is violence,
15:28 All right, sir.
I think we’ll answer that.
15:32 Just sit down, sir,
we’ll go into it.
15:36 Q: Why is love missing?
15:49 Why don’t we love?
15:52 K: Why don’t we love.
15:56 Sir, when you put
a question like that,
16:08 are you saying,
why don’t I love?
16:12 Not why don’t we love?
16:16 Why isn’t there love in my heart,
or in my being?
16:21 Would that be right, sir?
16:25 Right.
16:27 Any other questions?
16:29 Q: You said that
thought is limited,
16:36 and yet if we look around, thought
has conquered the whole of humanity.
16:41 I would like you
to elaborate on that, please.
16:46 K: You say thought is limited,
16:50 but every action is
based on thought.
16:55 All the activities – social,
economic, religious, personal –
17:03 are based on thought.
17:05 Q: And it has conquered
the whole of humanity.
17:08 K: And it is a common factor
of whole humanity.
17:13 Q: It has conquered
the whole of humanity.
17:17 K: It has conquered the whole world.
All right, sir.
17:23 Q: I’m still interested
in how I am blocking myself.
17:28 K: Yes, sir. The gentleman says he
is still interested in that question
17:33 where he has had an accident,
17:36 it has affected his
whole nervous system,
17:39 and therefore his brain
and his activity in life.
17:44 Q: Sir, is it possible
to know something
17:47 without having to show something?
18:03 K: Is it possible
to know something without...
18:10 Q:...having to show something.
18:43 K: So out of these questions,
which shall we take?
18:51 Action,
why isn’t there love in my heart,
18:59 what is the meaning of registration,
19:05 the significance of registration,
19:09 and is thought
everlastingly mechanical,
19:16 and is there something...
19:20 thought still non-mechanical.
20:09 So which of these questions?
20:13 If we take them all together,
20:15 which is the central question
in all these?
20:19 Q: The question of love, sir,
it would answer the others, I think.
20:26 K: Could we go into this question
20:31 why is it that we human beings
have no sense of love?
20:40 Perhaps if we could go
into that very deeply
20:46 – again, together –
please, not I talk and you listen,
20:50 but together,
20:53 then perhaps
in the investigation of that
20:58 we will be able to find out
what is thinking,
21:02 what place has thinking,
21:04 whether it is mechanical
or non-mechanical,
21:12 and why the mind is
always registering
21:18 incidents, accidents, hurts,
21:24 all the experiences of man,
stored up,
21:30 and what is action
that will be so complete,
21:35 it won’t leave a mark
of misery, confusion.
21:39 Could we take this one question,
21:42 which is, what is love,
why don’t we love?
21:50 Would that be all right?
Q: Yes.
21:54 K: No, don’t, please,
I don’t mind.
21:58 Do you want to discuss that?
Q: Yes.
22:01 K: Yes?
22:11 I wonder how we approach
this question.
22:16 What is your approach to it?
You understand my question?
22:21 How do you come to find out
22:28 what is the meaning of love,
22:30 why you, as a human being,
have not this perfume,
22:37 this quality that perhaps may answer
all the other questions in life?
22:46 Now what is your approach to it?
22:50 How do you come
to investigate that problem?
22:56 Or it may not be possible
to investigate that,
23:01 but one can find out
what may hinder it.
23:07 You understand?
23:08 What may prevent
this extraordinary thing
23:13 that man seems to be longing for
and doesn’t seem to get it, have it.
23:19 Could we do that?
23:22 So what is your approach to it?
23:26 You understand my question?
23:29 Because how you approach a problem
is really important.
23:35 Not the problem itself so much,
23:38 but how you come to it,
23:42 how you look at it,
23:44 what is your intention,
and all that.
23:52 So please, find out,
if I may request,
23:58 what is your approach,
24:01 how you receive that question,
24:08 whether your mind is
romantic, sentimental,
24:15 whether it is born out of desire.
24:21 So you have to go into this
very carefully
24:24 if you want to go
very deeply into this question,
24:30 because one may,
in going into this,
24:36 perhaps we will be able to answer
the whole nature of thinking.
24:47 Right?
24:48 So are we clear how you approach it,
each one of us?
25:16 Or you have certain conclusions
already about it.
25:25 Certain opinions
and your experiences,
25:32 will they block you,
25:34 will they prevent you from going
into it very, very, very deeply?
25:45 Right?
25:46 So please, we are talking together,
not to each one, together.
25:55 You understand?
25:56 The speaker is talking
to you personally – you.
26:03 So what is your approach?
26:06 Are you aware of your approach
and how you approach it?
26:12 Are you aware of your prejudice,
your images about it,
26:19 your conclusions about it,
26:22 or what people have said about it?
26:26 Can you put all that aside
and try to find out?
26:35 Q: What is love?
26:45 K: What is love?
26:47 That we are going to find out, sir,
that is what we are doing.
26:53 Q: Sir, but what is
the meaning of the word?
26:56 K: You know, sir,
first, the word, the word
27:03 – let’s be clear that we both have
the same meaning about that word,
27:07 not that you may have a different
meaning from the speaker,
27:12 or the speaker different from you.
27:14 You understand?
27:15 So we must be clear
about the word itself. Right?
27:25 Generally, in a good dictionary,
the origin of it is desire.
27:35 In Sanskrit it is ‘Lumpyati’
27:38 – I won’t go into it,
it is: he desires.
27:43 You follow?
Love is associated with a desire.
27:51 Please, I am explaining
the dictionary meaning of that word.
27:59 It is not my concept
or your concept,
28:02 what is the common
usage of that word.
28:05 So if we are clear,
that we both recognise
28:15 that the word is not the thing.
28:20 You understand?
You understand what I am saying?
28:24 The word is not the thing.
28:27 The word ‘microphone’ is not
the actual microphone. Right?
28:35 So we must be clear
always through our discussions,
28:40 if I may point out,
28:42 that the word is
not the actual fact.
28:47 Right?
28:50 So we are enquiring
into what is love.
29:01 Q: Sir, we say that a child,
a baby loves its mother,
29:07 because it needs its meals.
29:15 So in this case we say
love is a fact of necessity.
29:25 Q: The baby loves its mother
and that love is necessity.
29:43 K: The mother loves the baby,
and the baby loves the mother,
29:48 and that is a necessity.
29:53 Right?
29:55 Is that so?
30:00 You make a statement,
you don’t investigate it.
30:04 Is that so?
30:07 The animals love their babies.
30:16 The lowest form of life,
manifestation of life,
30:24 loves its young.
30:29 And this is a movement
from the animal to the man.
30:37 And is that love?
30:42 I am not saying it is not, or it is.
30:46 Or is it the instinct
from the animal
30:52 carried on through the human
30:57 – please, follow it step by step –
31:06 and attachment, the animal brings up
its cubs up to a certain age
31:14 and then forgets about them.
31:17 Right?
They have gone from the nest.
31:22 With a human,
there is tremendous care
31:27 till they are three, four, five,
31:30 nursing them, looking after them,
cleaning them,
31:34 cuddling them, holding them;
31:36 that is if you love that baby,
31:40 which most people don’t
– it becomes a plaything.
31:44 Or they have not the occasion,
not the time.
31:51 After that they send
them off to school,
31:54 to a boarding school,
and so on, so on,
31:58 gradually push them away.
32:01 Right?
32:03 And we are asking,
we are asking,
32:05 I am not saying it is, or it is not,
32:07 is that love?
32:11 I know the mothers will say,
‘How can you say such a thing!’
32:17 I mean we are questioning,
we are enquiring,
32:20 we are not saying yes or no.
32:23 Because we are thinking,
observing together
32:27 to find out for ourselves
32:29 what is this nature,
the beauty, quality,
32:33 the extraordinary thing called love.
32:39 If a mother and the parents
loved their baby,
32:44 looked after them
– you follow? –
32:48 then there would be no wars.
32:52 Right?
33:00 There would be right
kind of education.
33:04 There would be
right kind of society.
33:12 So we are asking, when a mother,
when the parents love their baby,
33:19 is it just for a short period,
33:24 or right through life?
33:28 Which means that they must have
right education, bring them up,
33:33 with right behaviour,
33:36 without violence,
33:39 without conflict,
33:42 not train them to kill each other,
organised war,
33:49 which is respectable, accepted.
You understand?
33:55 Would a parent who really
loved his children do this?
34:01 Go on, sir, you are parents,
think it out.
34:12 Q: There is a moment
where separation comes in.
34:15 K: At the moment
there is separation.
34:18 The mother, the father separate
themselves from their children.
34:23 Right?
34:25 And the children go off.
34:32 They are attached to the children.
Is attachment love?
34:37 You people... Don’t, please
– go into it.
34:52 Q: The parents get something
from their children,
34:55 and the children get
something from their parents,
34:58 so it is not love.
K: Yes sir, I know all that.
34:59 The baby needs
a great deal of affection, care.
35:04 If the parents don’t give affection,
care, love to the child,
35:08 the child withers.
35:10 It is a well known fact.
35:14 But generally the parents
have their own problems,
35:19 their own anxieties, fears,
sorrows and business, worries
35:25 – you know, all that.
35:26 And they give the child a little of
what they can when they have time.
35:31 You understand all this?
This is happening in the world.
35:36 And so is all that love?
35:42 Q: No.
K: Don’t say no, madame.
35:45 Will you do something about it,
test it?
35:59 Q: I think we should approach it
a little bit negatively,
36:03 like what is not love.
36:05 K: We are doing that, sir.
We have just done it!
36:07 Q: Yes?
Well, to look at this whole thing
36:11 as one of the ways
of approaching it.
36:14 Time, space,
and the whole human and animal race.
36:18 K: Yes, sir, we’ll come to it, sir,
slowly, slowly.
36:23 Q: I think the parents even defend
themselves against the child.
36:28 K: Of course, that always happens.
You follow?
36:33 The parents are against the child,
36:35 and the child becomes – you know,
what is happening in the world.
36:39 For god’s sake, look at it.
36:45 So from that arises the question:
is attachment love?
36:55 Q: Many parents think that it is.
36:59 K: I know, many people think that
without jealousy there is no love.
37:06 If you don’t struggle, fight,
37:23 if there is no conflict,
37:24 if there is no jealousy,
a sense of each one asserting,
37:31 people imagine
that there is no love,
37:34 or that there is love –
this state is love. Right?
37:41 So I am asking from that:
is attachment love?
37:48 We are thinking over
together, you and I.
37:54 So are you attached
to your children?
38:14 Q: Is there a care and affection
38:15 that makes you attractive
to somebody else
38:19 at a communion level
as opposed to an attachment
38:22 that you are dominating,
38:24 and your ideas have to be
the ideas of the other person.
38:29 Can you be attached and
understand that attachment?
38:34 K: When you dominate your children,
or your wife, or your husband,
38:42 or your girl, or boy,
38:45 when you possess them,
hold them that they are mine
38:52 – is that love?
38:53 Q: No.
38:54 K: Sir, when we ask that question,
is that love,
38:58 when you say,
‘No, it is not’,
38:59 do you mean it is not in you –
you understand?
39:05 You are free of it, not just
verbally say, ‘Yes, I am not’.
39:12 So that is why I asked
at the beginning,
39:14 if I may point out,
39:18 unless we do this actively,
39:22 see, aware that it is so in us,
39:27 and being aware,
look at it, go into it,
39:32 search out why human beings
hold on to this attachment.
39:39 Why you are attached
as husband, wife,
39:43 furniture, book, belief,
it doesn’t matter – attachment.
39:49 And if you are attached to one thing
and another is attached to another,
39:53 there is division.
You understand?
39:55 And is this division love?
Please go into it.
40:08 Q: I hope you don’t mind my...
40:12 K: Allezy, madame, allezy.
40:23 Q: I said they even
defend themselves
40:25 against their own children.
Why so?
40:39 K: Madame, if you read
the newspapers and magazines,
40:42 and social workers and all those,
they are saying:
40:45 after a great deal of attention,
after a great deal of study,
40:50 that unless parents
really love their children,
40:54 you know,
really love them,
40:56 have time with them,
spend their energy with them,
41:00 the children either generally die,
the babies,
41:05 or mentally, psychologically
they are warped.
41:12 And this lady was pointing out
41:14 that some parents are
opposed to their children.
41:21 There are, they beat them,
41:23 they force them,
they do all kinds of things to them.
41:29 That is all she was pointing out.
41:32 Q: Sir, from what you are saying,
41:36 I think we might get the idea
that we should love.
41:40 I think most of us have the idea
very strongly that we should love.
41:45 And most of us are very afraid
that we don’t love.
41:48 Perhaps that is the barrier.
K: Yes, sir.
41:52 The speaker is not saying
that you should love.
41:56 That would be silly
because it has no meaning.
42:00 And because we have a feeling
that we should love, we feel guilty.
42:06 And being guilty,
we force ourselves.
42:11 Right? So, please.
42:16 I hear you telling me,
love is not attachment.
42:25 I hear you.
42:30 And because I really am in earnest,
42:36 I want to find out.
42:40 I really want to find out.
42:43 So I give attention
to what you are saying.
42:48 And when you say,
‘Is attachment love?’,
42:53 I say, ‘Am I attached
to my daughter, to my wife?’
43:00 I investigate in myself.
43:03 You understand?
43:05 I say, am I?
43:08 And if I am not attached,
will I become irresponsible?
43:13 You understand?
43:17 I have so far said,
43:20 as long as I am attached
to this person,
43:23 I am responsible,
I have to look after,
43:27 I have to care,
I have to earn money, you know,
43:31 together,
43:32 because I am attached to her,
she is mine, I must protect her.
43:40 And you are telling me,
asking me: is that love?
43:46 And I begin to enquire,
43:49 and I say, if I am detached,
will I neglect my responsibility.
43:56 You understand?
43:58 Will I be indifferent,
44:01 will I get bored
and chase another person?
44:05 You follow?
44:07 So I am looking at both,
44:10 whether attachment is love,
44:14 in attachment there is fear
– I know, I feel it.
44:20 In attachment I must possess,
44:24 I can’t let her go, or him,
44:28 because in attachment
I find security.
44:35 And you come and tell me, or ask me,
44:40 because I am listening to you,
44:42 I care for what you say,
44:46 you have gone into it,
you have searched out,
44:48 you may be wrong, you may be right,
44:50 but I want to find out.
44:52 So I examine, and I say,
what happens if I am not attached.
45:01 I get frightened
45:05 – aren’t you?
45:07 I get frightened,
45:09 and that very fear
makes me more attached.
45:20 So I have to face the fear
45:24 and see if I can go into it,
and see what is implied in it,
45:30 then I can say,
‘Well, all right,
45:32 I see the danger of attachment,
but what then?’
45:40 You follow?
I am not attached.
45:43 Do I live in a vacuum
45:49 when all people around me
are attached?
45:54 Am I antisocial?
You understand?
45:57 Go into it with me
as I am doing it.
46:06 So my enquiry in listening to you
is: I want to find out what love is.
46:16 To me that is very important
to find out,
46:19 because that may
solve all my problems
46:24 if I know how to love.
46:26 Right?
It may.
46:30 Everything has failed:
46:32 I have tried gurus,
I have tried everything,
46:36 but nothing has come,
nothing has resolved,
46:40 nothing has created
something new in my life.
46:45 So I am listening to you
very earnestly,
46:47 carefully, with affection.
46:51 So I see, I understand
that love is not attachment.
46:57 Understand in the sense
I have seen it,
47:01 not verbally, in action.
47:04 I say, ‘All right, my girl,
I am not attached to you’ – or boy.
47:08 I am watching it
– you understand?
47:11 I see the danger,
and therefore I am holding it.
47:16 You understand?
Keeping a watchful eye.
47:21 Are you doing all this?
47:24 Q: I think the true way
to approach a problem is
47:28 to examine what is not love.
47:33 K: I am doing that, sir, please.
47:37 You are finding out
what is not love.
47:41 Attachment is not love.
47:43 I have just discovered that.
47:47 It is a tremendous discovery
for me.
47:55 Because I have so far
accepted attachment as love,
48:01 and you come and say,
‘Find out, look at it’.
48:06 I look and I find:
yes, you are perfectly right,
48:10 because in attachment there is fear,
48:14 and fear cannot go with love.
48:20 So I have discovered this.
48:24 I haven’t been told by you,
it is part of my blood now.
48:30 Right?
48:31 Are you doing this with me?
48:34 Or you are just verbally
playing around.
48:38 Q: Sir, I find it a very sad thing.
48:48 You are going over a very
serious problem with these people.
48:55 Have you ever really considered that
there is a very simple statement
49:01 that tells you all about love,
49:04 and that is found in the Bible.
49:08 And the simple statement is,
that God is love.
49:12 K: Madame, please.
49:13 Q: And there is no love
to be found in man himself.
49:21 God loves man.
49:25 And man can look outwards to God,
not inwards and find love.
49:36 K: Madame, ecoutez.
49:43 If you make your question
very short,
49:46 then it will be possible
to answer it.
49:49 But if you make a long speech,
49:50 it is impossible to understand,
even verbally.
49:57 So we are, through the negation
of what is not love,
50:03 finding it out.
50:05 You understand?
50:07 Negation: attachment is not.
50:15 But with attachment
I have felt responsible,
50:19 but also if I am not attached,
will I be irresponsible?
50:26 You understand?
50:29 So I have to find out in action,
not just verbally.
50:32 I say, I see I am attached,
50:35 I see the dangers
of attachment, fear,
50:38 and I understand the nature of fear,
and I say, all right.
50:44 Now, am I responsible,
being free from attachment?
50:52 Is then, I am asking,
50:55 is responsibility necessary to love?
51:06 You understand?
51:08 Through negation of attachment,
of denying attachment,
51:13 and I have found responsibility,
51:18 and is responsibility part
of this strange thing called love?
51:27 You understand?
51:28 Being responsible,
51:31 not only to my wife, to my children,
51:35 having the feeling
of responsibility.
51:39 You understand
what I am talking about?
51:41 Q: Is responsibility
the same as an obligation?
51:48 K: Responsibility is not obligation.
Obligation is gone.
51:55 If I am obliged to you,
I can’t love you.
52:02 I am obliged to you
because you give me money,
52:05 you give me sex,
you give me comfort – you know? –
52:10 then where is this thing?
52:12 It is a merchandise.
52:16 Right?
52:17 Q: Sir, I think
there is another danger.
52:22 It is, we begin
to cultivate indifference,
52:28 you know, to become casual?
52:32 If you see the attachment,
52:34 you can begin
to cultivate indifference.
52:38 And that is another trap.
K: Oh, yes, sir.
52:41 That’s is why I am examining
all the traps.
52:47 So I have realised
love implies responsibility.
52:59 Go a little further.
53:02 Q: Which is to be able to respond.
53:07 K: Responsibility, means,
as you say,
53:10 the word ‘responsible’
comes from ‘to respond’.
53:19 Now in that responsibility,
53:22 is the response sensuous,
53:27 sensory
– you understand?
53:30 Does that responsibility
contain desire
53:36 – you are following all this?
53:39 Please, I am talking.
I am not talking to myself.
53:42 We are doing it together,
you and I.
53:47 You and I may be
all of you.
53:53 So I am asking,
53:57 in that responsibility,
54:01 is that responsibility
limited to my girl, wife, husband,
54:07 or the feeling of responsibility
– you understand?
54:18 Q: There is a centre from which this
responsibility comes into being.
54:27 K: I examined it, sir.
I am attached.
54:32 In that attachment,
I have felt responsible.
54:38 I go out, earn a livelihood,
earn money,
54:42 come back, and I feel responsible
for the woman, or the man.
54:49 And in that responsibility,
there is attachment, fear.
54:55 And you point out to me,
fear and love can’t go together.
55:00 You see it, you are so clear.
And I say, quite right.
55:04 So I am saying, is responsibility
just to those few,
55:10 or responsible for all human beings
– you understand?
55:23 Is love
– follow this! –
55:25 is love this total feeling
of responsibility?
55:39 Q: I see that if you are
attached to somebody...
55:44 K: Sir, unless you go through this
in yourself, work it out, test it.
55:54 Q: I test it every day, and I think
I test it too much sometimes.
56:02 I think that attachment,
as long as I experience attachment,
56:05 I am not able to be responsible
56:08 to the rest of the human
beings in the world.
56:11 K: Yes, sir.
56:15 So I have gone much further
in my investigation with myself.
56:21 I hope you are doing the same thing.
56:24 Which is,
56:26 do I feel responsible not only for
the few with whom I am associated,
56:33 or is there the feeling of total
responsibility for the earth,
56:40 for the trees, for the mountains,
for the water,
56:43 for other human beings.
You follow? Total feeling.
56:47 And is that love? Don’t say,
yes, or no, unless you do it.
56:58 And also I find in my investigation
57:05 that I like to possess.
57:10 I like to belong to somebody.
57:19 Don’t you know all this?
57:22 Oh, for god’s...
57:27 So belonging,
57:31 which is to be identified
with something – you understand? –
57:38 identified with the nation,
with the group,
57:42 with a person, with an idea.
57:44 So as I have lost every
form of identification,
57:49 I feel I must be identified.
57:52 Don’t you know this?
57:54 And in that identification
I must possess.
57:58 I can’t identify myself
with the wind!
58:08 Q: We are brought up
in this way, educated.
58:10 K: I know, sir,
you are brought up this way.
58:13 I know, I’ve been
brought up that way,
58:15 I am breaking my conditioning.
Q: Yes.
58:20 K: I am breaking down
what I have been brought up to.
58:24 Q: Sometimes your conditioning is
when you are able to watch it,
58:28 the conditioning,
you can listen.
58:34 The conditioning is
sometimes very strong.
58:36 So you are able to watch it,
you are able to be aware of it,
58:40 but the conditioning
is very, very strong.
58:43 K: Yes. I’m being aware of it.
58:47 I am aware that I want to possess.
58:52 And in that possession
there is domination.
58:59 And possession and domination,
59:04 does that contain love
– you understand?
59:08 So I discover it does not.
So I will not possess.
59:15 You understand?
I can’t possess,
59:17 because my interest,
my drive, my intensity
59:22 is to find out
this thing called love.
59:24 So I have found
attachment is not love,
59:30 possession is not love,
59:33 nor the instinct,
59:35 which has been derived from
the animal till now, to the human.
59:40 The mother, and the parents
saying ‘I love my baby’,
59:43 and then neglect them
for the rest of their life.
59:47 Right?
That is not love.
59:50 So I have found out for myself
these things are not love.
59:56 Then I want also to enquire
1:00:00 – I hope you are doing it together.
I am not talking to myself.
1:00:04 If I am, stop it.
1:00:13 Q: What about attachment
to the idea of independence
1:00:17 which is the other
side of the coin?
1:00:22 Aren’t we often attached
also to the idea
1:00:24 that we should be independent,
not attached.
1:00:28 This creates a problem also.
K: Yes, sir.
1:00:31 That means attached to the image
you have about dependence.
1:00:35 Come on, sir, this is all simple,
isn’t it?
1:00:41 So is jealousy love?
1:00:45 You understand?
1:00:50 Or you say, ‘No, it is not!
But I am jealous!’
1:00:56 So my saying, it is not,
has no meaning.
1:01:00 So I have to say,
‘Why, why am I jealous?’
1:01:05 Go into it, look at it.
Why am I jealous?
1:01:09 Q: Because I am frightened.
1:01:14 K: Because I possess.
1:01:17 Why do I possess her or him,
why do I hold on?
1:01:24 Is it that I am lonely?
You understand?
1:01:28 Desperately, deeply
lonely, separate?
1:01:39 Q: I think love is a sort of
intense perception of life.
1:01:44 For example, now this moment,
together, the sun outside,
1:01:50 the planes in the sky,
the water on the roads, the roof...
1:01:55 the whole of life is like that
– love. I think so.
1:02:00 K: You have described
what love is – right?
1:02:06 Q: An intense perception of life.
1:02:09 Like, for example,
1:02:13 I think love is an intense
perception of life.
1:02:30 K: But I haven’t got
that intense perception of life.
1:02:34 Q: Like, for example,
this moment, now.
1:02:36 K: Yes, madame, I understand that,
but I haven’t got it.
1:02:41 You people just imagine this,
1:02:44 make a statement
and let it go at that.
1:02:48 I don’t know what you mean
by ‘intense perception of life’.
1:02:52 I am caught in this thing.
1:02:55 You are giving some description
what life should be.
1:03:02 I am not going to be caught
in that trap of descriptions.
1:03:13 So is jealousy love?
1:03:15 And I am jealous,
so I become aware of it.
1:03:18 You understand?
1:03:18 I go into it, I don’t just say,
‘Well, what am I to do, tell me’.
1:03:24 I see jealousy is not love,
and I am jealous,
1:03:28 so I go into it,
I work it out, think it out.
1:03:36 Which means
I am attached to her, or him.
1:03:42 So I have not escaped
from attachment,
1:03:46 I have not really resolved it.
1:03:49 So I must go into again,
look at it carefully,
1:03:54 because my intention, my whole
search is to find out this perfume.
1:04:03 So I have put that aside.
1:04:08 Then I see
that I have my ambitions,
1:04:17 my beliefs, my dogmatism,
me first and her second.
1:04:24 Right?
And she first and me second.
1:04:29 And I say, is that love?
1:04:34 Which means when there is separation
between that and this,
1:04:39 is that love?
1:04:42 Sir, don’t say, no.
Go into it, look at it.
1:04:49 Because if you don’t,
1:04:51 you will say at the end of 20 years,
‘I have done nothing’.
1:04:58 At the end of ten years
you will say,
1:05:00 ‘You have talked enough,
get away from here.
1:05:04 Stop talking’.
1:05:06 Because you don’t apply.
1:05:13 Q: This is the only difficulty:
we don’t apply.
1:05:16 K: Apply.
I am doing it now for you.
1:05:19 Q: But I have the intention
to apply myself,
1:05:22 but there is something else
that I don’t know
1:05:25 that prevents me to deeply see
all these things,
1:05:29 and not intellectually only.
1:05:30 K: Then find out
what is impeding you.
1:05:34 Go into it. Don’t say,
‘I don’t know’, and then give it up.
1:05:37 Find out what is the barrier.
1:05:45 Is it laziness,
1:05:47 is it acceptance
of things as they are,
1:05:50 not to be disturbed?
1:05:52 Sir, go into it, sir.
1:05:59 Test it out.
1:06:00 Break down, cry,
do something to find out.
1:06:07 At the end of it don’t say,
1:06:09 ‘I have listened to you for 20 years
or 52 years, and I haven’t changed’.
1:06:15 It is not my fault,
it is your fault.
1:06:19 Don’t put the blame on me.
1:06:25 Q: Sir...
K: Just a minute, sir.
1:06:28 I know, sir.
I am answering your question, sir.
1:06:36 So I have discovered attachment
in any form is not love.
1:06:45 Jealousy is not love.
1:06:47 Possession is not love,
me and her,
1:06:52 fulfilling my desires in her,
or she in me.
1:07:00 So desire – go into it carefully –
desire is not love.
1:07:09 Right?
1:07:11 You don’t accept it,
you won’t see this.
1:07:16 Desire, sexual desires,
desire for comfort,
1:07:24 desire for various
forms of encouragement,
1:07:29 you know – desire.
1:07:32 Is desire love?
Don’t say, no.
1:07:40 Because I am desiring
that woman, or that man;
1:07:45 I desire to be
a big politician, or a guru,
1:07:50 or I desire enlightenment.
1:07:54 I desire to become better.
1:08:00 I desire to overcome this,
enter into something else.
1:08:07 All this movement of desire,
the becoming, the fulfilling,
1:08:15 is that love?
1:08:20 Q: So what shall we do with it?
K: I am telling you, sir.
1:08:24 Look at it, investigate desire.
1:08:33 Why is the mind,
which is the result of the senses
1:08:38 – you follow?
You understand this? –
1:08:43 the senses,
1:08:50 so the response of the senses
with its desires,
1:08:56 is that love?
1:09:00 You follow?
Please follow all this.
1:09:06 I am investigating all this,
1:09:09 so that towards the end
I begin to see
1:09:13 that everything that thought has
created or desired around this word
1:09:19 is not love.
1:09:23 And in the perception of that
intelligence is taking place.
1:09:29 Right?
Right, sir?
1:09:33 Q: Is love the same
as understanding?
1:09:37 K: No, sir. Love is not
the same as understanding.
1:09:41 Love is something
totally different.
1:09:46 You see, I am describing it
and you...
1:09:54 I can use a Greek word ‘agape’,
or French word or Sanskrit word,
1:10:03 but it won’t convey the thing.
1:10:05 The description in Sanskrit
I can tell you – it won’t.
1:10:10 Or in Italian, or French,
it is not that.
1:10:13 So please, sir, do it.
1:10:17 Q: Sir, you talk about love.
1:10:22 K: I don’t talk about love.
1:10:26 I am talking about the barriers,
1:10:31 the things that prevent
this thing taking place.
1:10:40 Q: Well, I am blocking it.
K: You told me that, sir.
1:10:44 Q: What shall I do?
I mean, I want to love.
1:10:49 K: You can’t...
that’s what ‘I want to love’.
1:10:53 The very desire to want to love
is the denial of love.
1:10:58 Q: So how shall I
get rid of that desire?
1:11:00 K: I am not saying
you should get rid of anything.
1:11:04 I am just pointing out
1:11:05 how to investigate desire,
to look at it.
1:11:09 All right,
I will show it to you, sir.
1:11:11 I have desire.
1:11:15 I desire that woman, or that man,
1:11:20 I desire to become something,
1:11:23 I desire to be very healthy,
1:11:26 I desire a better life,
more money – I desire.
1:11:35 And what is this constant urge
– right? –
1:11:41 for nirvana, for enlightenment,
for better life,
1:11:46 what is this desire?
1:11:50 Please, I am not talking to myself.
1:11:56 I can do this anywhere.
1:12:00 Q: Sir, in order for the desire
to accomplish and transform
1:12:06 into the passion to investigate,
1:12:11 something has to take place.
1:12:12 K: Yes, sir, desire for something.
1:12:16 Desire cannot be transmuted
into something else,
1:12:21 it has to be understood.
1:12:24 It has to be exposed
to the light of investigation.
1:12:35 Q: How do you expose it?
1:12:36 K: I am doing it, sir,
I am doing it.
1:12:55 I went into this carefully
the other day,
1:12:59 what is the movement of desire.
1:13:04 The response of the senses.
1:13:09 Right?
1:13:10 The response, I see something:
1:13:12 a blue shirt,
I want that blue shirt.
1:13:14 The response of... seeing,
the response, contact, sensation,
1:13:22 then thought comes in and says,
‘I would like to have that shirt’.
1:13:27 So thought, when it takes over,
1:13:32 the response of the senses
creates desire.
1:13:37 Watch it.
Test it out.
1:13:42 Q: I want the attention
that you have, sir.
1:13:46 I see that desire.
1:13:49 K: So I am left with this, sir:
I see love is not desire.
1:13:59 It is a great thing
to find out for oneself,
1:14:07 and if love is not desire,
then what is love?
1:14:11 You understand?
1:14:13 Love is not mere attachment
to the baby,
1:14:18 love is not attachment to any form,
love is not jealousy,
1:14:23 love is not me and my ambition,
my fulfilment, my becoming,
1:14:28 and you also becoming,
1:14:30 this constant division,
1:14:33 that is not love,
1:14:35 nor desire, nor pleasure.
1:14:40 The fulfilment of desire,
which is pleasure,
1:14:45 that is not love.
1:14:49 So I have found out
what love is.
1:14:55 It is none of these things.
1:14:58 And have I understood
these elements,
1:15:04 and am free of them?
1:15:07 Or just say,
‘Well, I understand intellectually,
1:15:11 I understand verbally,
1:15:13 but help me to go deeper’,
I can’t.
1:15:16 You have to do it yourself.
1:15:21 Q: How to do it, sir?
K: I am doing it, sir.
1:15:25 Sit down, sir, please.
Q: I am prepared to stand.
1:15:28 K: All right, sir.
Sit on there, sir.
1:15:29 Q:Thank you.
1:15:37 K: So in this investigation,
1:15:39 in examining all these things
quite impersonally,
1:15:43 objectively as they are,
1:15:44 I have got that quality
of intelligence now.
1:15:48 You understand?
1:15:49 It is born
out of this investigation,
1:15:52 it is born out of this seeing
the truth of each thing. Right?
1:15:58 And therefore out of that
there is intelligence.
1:16:02 So I am asking:
1:16:04 is this intelligence
necessary for love?
1:16:11 I am using the word ‘intelligence’,
not intellect,
1:16:15 the cunning, twisting
subtleties of the intellect,
1:16:22 the verbal play,
1:16:27 but totally different.
1:16:30 The seeing and the doing;
1:16:33 the seeing attachment is dangerous,
1:16:37 and the doing of it,
which is the ending of it,
1:16:40 that is intelligence.
1:16:45 So there is intelligence
and therefore it is love,
1:16:48 that quality of love,
which is compassion.
1:16:52 Not compassion as an idea.
1:16:56 A thing that is in one’s heart,
burning, alive.
1:17:03 And compassion, love and
intelligence go together.
1:17:08 Without intelligence
you can’t have compassion,
1:17:11 this intelligence
of which I am talking.
1:17:17 Now, we have talked
for an hour and 27 minutes,
1:17:28 have you tested it out?
1:17:33 Have you freed yourself
from this attachment
1:17:38 and therefore total feeling
of immense responsibility?
1:17:54 Or will you say
the day after tomorrow,
1:17:58 ‘I’ve listened to you,
nothing has happened’?
1:18:04 That very statement indicates
1:18:08 that you have not investigated
yourself, gone into yourself.
1:18:17 You expect somebody
to do something to you.
1:18:22 Q: Krishnaji,
that may not be quite fair.
1:18:25 I have listened
to what you are saying
1:18:28 and feel now
I want to try and test it out.
1:18:30 K: Test it out.
1:18:33 No, do it as we are talking,
1:18:35 don’t wait
till the day after tomorrow.
1:18:39 Q: Sir, as I reject every
attachment or desire,
1:18:45 I feel tremendously empty in myself,
so I can’t see intelligence.
1:18:49 K: Sir, emptiness,
what does that mean?
1:18:58 Lonely, separate, isolated,
1:19:09 a sense of being cut off,
1:19:18 not having any kind
of relationship with another,
1:19:26 is it the result of drugs,
1:19:35 is it the result of various
forms of marijuana, grass, speed,
1:19:42 and all the rest of it?
1:19:44 And also is it
the result of your vows,
1:19:48 your meditation,
your acceptance of authority?
1:19:52 You follow?
1:19:54 Made you the sense of absolutely
worthless, empty, lonely.
1:20:05 So at the end
of an hour and a half nearly,
1:20:10 have you got this quality
of love and compassion?
1:20:18 If not, let us tomorrow
talk about it,
1:20:22 investigate it,
go into it much more deeply.
1:20:26 But don’t say ever,
1:20:31 ‘I have listened for so long
and I haven’t got it’.
1:20:38 You can listen to that river
1:20:43 but the waters are
not what you listen to.