Krishnamurti Subtitles

Breaking the pattern of conditioning

Saanen - 13 July 1980

Public Talk 4

0:38 Krishnamurti:
May we continue
0:41 with what we were talking about
in the last three talks?
0:52 Some of you may be
have come for the first time
0:58 or haven’t been
to the other talks,
1:01 so we should,
if you don’t mind,
1:06 we’ll repeat a little bit
what we have said before.
1:16 Apparently man has lived
for over five or six million years,
1:31 and during all this
evolutionary period,
1:36 man has not been able,
both outwardly and inwardly,
1:44 to solve the great
problem of conflict,
1:48 conflict not only
within himself,
1:53 but conflict and wars,
slaughter outside.
2:01 And that is the pattern
through all these millennia
2:07 that the brain has
followed this course,
2:13 this mould, this pattern.
2:17 And we are still
continuing constantly
2:21 in the same stream
of misery,
2:28 confusion and great sorrow,
both inwardly and outwardly.
2:39 And if we are at all serious
and are concerned
2:43 with what is happening
in the world,
2:47 and also within ourselves,
2:53 one must wonder,
or discuss, or find out,
3:00 why the brain, the mind,
3:06 because we are using ‘the mind’
as sensation,
3:14 all the emotions,
the reactions,
3:21 and the responses of thought.
3:28 All that is the brain,
the mind and the heart,
3:32 the whole psychological
structure of human beings,
3:39 both biologically
as well as psychologically;
3:45 why we human beings,
who are supposed to be educated,
3:53 evolved, sophisticated,
3:59 why we live in this world
killing each other,
4:08 being divided by religions,
4:13 by nationalities,
4:17 by all the destructive
4:24 that thought has created
between human beings.
4:34 And is it possible
4:38 to bring about a change
in the very structure of the brain.
4:46 That is what we have been talking
about for the last three talks.
4:58 And also we said
that this is not a talk
5:05 by the man who is sitting
on a platform talking about ideas.
5:15 Any number of ideas
have existed in the world,
5:19 any number of ideologies,
5:24 both the totalitarian,
Marxist, Lenin, Mao,
5:30 and the other type,
5:33 ideologies of the Left,
the Centre and the Right,
5:37 the extremes of all these.
5:43 And these ideologies have been
very, very destructive,
5:49 whether the religious ideologies
5:52 or the political,
economic ideologies.
6:02 And the brain, the mind,
6:05 the whole psychological
structure of man,
6:08 has lived in this pattern,
6:12 has lived in this mould.
6:17 And, as we said,
this is not a talk by the speaker.
6:24 We are together thinking
over this problem, together.
6:32 You are not just listening
and agreeing, or disagreeing,
6:39 going home having perhaps
been a little interested,
6:45 intellectually entertained.
6:48 But I am afraid that is not
the purpose of this gathering.
6:54 We are together
taking the journey,
7:00 thinking together.
7:06 And one must, if you are kindly
give some attention to all this,
7:14 because we are all
human beings,
7:17 whether we live in Russia,
East, West, South, North.
7:23 We all go
through a great deal of torture,
7:27 misery, anxiety,
the burden of fears, and sorrow.
7:34 This is the common lot of man,
the common lot of humanity.
7:43 And the common lot is the human
being sitting here in the tent,
7:54 whether we are from the East,
West, North, South
7:59 – we are humanity.
8:02 Our brains and our minds
8:06 are not individual brains
and individual minds,
8:13 it is the mind of humanity.
8:17 I know, perhaps,
many of you will disagree,
8:22 but if you examine it impartially,
8:26 objectively, scientifically,
8:29 you will find
that the brain is not yours,
8:38 nor mine,
8:40 it is the brain of human beings,
8:44 which has evolved
to the present condition
8:48 in which we find ourselves.
8:54 And we have been asking,
examining, observing
9:01 – not analysing,
9:06 why the human mind has lived
with this despair, this depression.
9:19 Why human beings have not,
during all these millennia,
9:26 changed radically.
9:30 That is the problem.
9:33 That is what we have been
talking over together.
9:39 Talking over together,
not listening to the speaker
9:45 and say, ‘Well, he is theoretical,
nonsensical, oriental’,
9:50 and all the rest
of that nonsense.
9:54 Thought is neither
oriental nor occidental.
10:01 I think this is the basic fact.
10:05 You may in the West
think along a particular line
10:11 – scientific, industrial,
and so on,
10:16 and in the East
it may be different,
10:19 but essentially
it is thought, thinking,
10:26 which is common to all of us.
10:30 It is the lot of man to think.
10:34 And thinking is not yours or mine,
it is common.
10:43 And this thought,
10:48 born of knowledge,
experience, memory,
10:54 this thought has created
the industrial world,
11:01 built extraordinary bridges,
beautiful bridges,
11:07 great scientific
11:11 surgery, medicine;
11:14 and also thought has created wars.
11:21 Thought has created
all the architecture,
11:27 beautiful and ugly,
11:30 all the great paintings,
the statues, and music.
11:35 Thought has also created all those
things that are in the cathedrals,
11:42 in the temples,
in the mosques.
11:49 And thought has divided
the religious world
11:56 into Christianity, Hinduism,
Buddhism, and so on.
12:02 These are all facts.
12:06 It is not the speaker’s
12:10 These are obvious,
observable facts.
12:16 And we have lived that way,
12:22 which has become
glorified nationality.
12:27 And is it possible
for this brain,
12:32 which has been moulded
in a particular pattern
12:35 and has existed
in a particular way:
12:38 suffering, demanding, obeying,
not obeying, conforming,
12:48 and revolting against conformity
12:51 – this has been the pattern.
12:58 And any serious person
must enquire
13:07 whether it is possible
to break down this pattern
13:13 and live totally
13:17 without war, without antagonism,
without anxiety, fear, sorrow.
13:30 And if you are willing,
13:36 and capable naturally,
13:41 to think together,
13:44 we can find out for ourselves
13:47 whether it is
possible or not.
13:52 That is, more or less,
13:55 what we have been talking about
during the last three talks.
14:04 Right?
14:13 As one observes
one’s own mind,
14:19 not the speaker’s mind,
14:23 not the speaker’s words,
14:26 which are ordinary,
non-technological words,
14:33 he is using non-technical words,
not jargons, and so on,
14:39 just ordinary,
everyday English.
14:49 And also,
if one may point out,
14:52 we are not trying
to do any propaganda,
14:57 we are not urging you
to join any community,
15:01 or to follow any guru.
15:04 All that is silly,
15:08 grownup people
don’t do this kind of thing.
15:12 Immature people do.
15:20 So our question is:
15:23 why the brain,
15:28 which has got such immense capacity,
15:37 why it has not solved
its own problems,
15:43 why it lives in this way?
15:49 And as we said the other day,
15:51 and we will repeat it again,
if we may:
15:56 thought is the core of this,
16:03 is the centre of all this travail.
16:11 Thought is born
out of knowledge, experience,
16:23 which becomes memory
held in the brain cells.
16:28 So thought is
a material process.
16:37 This we have discussed
with several scientists
16:41 who are brain specialists;
16:44 some of them agree,
some them don’t – naturally!
16:49 That is their game.
16:51 Some agree, some don’t,
about everything.
17:04 But thought has been the centre
of all this human struggle,
17:19 this human urge
to go beyond itself,
17:24 the urge to find God,
if God exists,
17:28 to find out
what is illumination,
17:33 if there is something
beyond time,
17:37 if there is something
beyond man’s thought,
17:41 which is eternal,
and so on.
17:46 And so thought has been exercised
right from the very beginning.
17:55 And thought has
18:02 made the image
that man must grow, evolve,
18:09 become something.
18:13 I hope you are following
all this.
18:20 Please, you are not
following the speaker,
18:25 you are following yourself.
18:28 There is no teacher,
nor disciple.
18:35 That is truth.
18:38 There is no follower and the leader
in the world of mind,
18:47 and there is only learning,
18:54 not learning what someone
has to inform you,
19:06 but learning in action.
19:16 We will go into that presently.
19:21 So we are together examining,
19:27 taking a journey into the very,
very complex life of human beings,
19:34 very complex.
19:42 And to enter
into this complexity,
19:45 the mind must be free
from all attachments,
19:52 from any tie to anything
19:57 – to your guru, to your conclusion,
20:00 to your concepts, ideas,
and so on,
20:08 because when you are
tied to something,
20:11 when you are committed
to a particular religion,
20:16 to a particular
system of thought,
20:19 to a particular
method of meditation,
20:25 to a particular method or belief,
and so on, so on,
20:30 that very commitment
brings corruption.
20:42 Therefore a mind
that is committed,
20:49 taking sides, believing,
20:53 cannot possibly
enter, discover,
20:59 whether this mind
can itself transform.
21:09 Right?
21:11 I know it is very difficult
to accept this,
21:15 because every human being
wants to be committed to something,
21:20 he feels safe
in that commitment.
21:28 One feels safe
if you have a leader,
21:33 if you have a guru,
if you have a particular system.
21:37 And if you are attached
to any person,
22:02 If you are attached
to any person,
22:06 obviously, you can see
corruption beginning,
22:11 because in that attachment
there is fear, hate, anxiety.
22:24 Similarly, if you are attached
to an idea or to a belief,
22:29 to a concept, to a particular
image or symbol of a religion,
22:37 then corruption
is inevitable.
22:46 And one of the factors
of this corruption
22:50 is authority.
22:57 Are we coming, meeting together?
23:01 Or are you sitting separate
over there
23:04 and the speaker over here?
23:07 We are physically,
23:08 but is there any kind
of communication between us?
23:17 Is there any kind of observation
of the common factor together?
23:26 Do we both see,
23:29 not only intellectually, verbally,
23:34 but actually as a fact – the fact.
23:40 This microphone is a fact.
23:44 Can we see the fact
in ourselves
23:49 that as long as you are committed,
attached, tied to something
23:56 – to a person,
to a belief, to a concept –
24:00 there must be corruption?
24:03 Whether you are a Marxist,
24:08 Leninist, Mao,
or some latest guru,
24:19 or attached to any
particular system,
24:24 there must be corruption.
24:31 Do we see that as a fact?
24:37 If I am committed to the idea
that I am a Hindu,
24:47 see what takes place.
24:49 Or if you are committed
as a Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist,
24:54 or belonging to some sect,
24:57 some theological
or democratic concept,
25:05 you are tied,
25:06 and therefore you are
not free to examine.
25:13 And there must be freedom.
25:21 And authority,
25:26 specially in the world of the mind,
and the heart, and the brain,
25:33 that is, to follow somebody,
25:40 to accept some theological
or theoretical concepts
25:49 given by Marx, and so on,
25:53 or by some Asiatic or Indian mind.
26:00 If you accept that and follow it,
26:09 mentally,
26:12 in your actions, and so on,
26:16 that is the very basis
of authority and corruption.
26:23 Do we see this together?
26:29 Not just
intellectually see it
26:33 because one has
carefully explained it,
26:38 verbally it is very clear,
26:42 but to do it,
26:50 to see the consequences
of this attachment,
26:59 how it has divided the world
into such chaos.
27:10 And is it possible
to be a light to oneself,
27:15 not the light of another?
27:23 Because our brain has
been trained and evolved
27:29 and accepted authority.
27:33 Not only the outward
authority of law,
27:40 which is necessary,
27:44 but the authority,
the psychological authority,
27:49 the so-called
spiritual authority.
27:56 We have become slaves
to that authority.
28:08 So we are controlled,
shaped, connived at
28:17 by those who say,
‘We know, we have attained,
28:23 we will tell you what to do,
follow us’.
28:29 ‘We will lead you to heaven,
save you from your sins’,
28:35 and all that business
that goes on in the world.
28:48 And such a mind,
28:51 committed,
28:54 can never be free.
28:57 And without freedom you can never
find out what truth is.
29:08 So could we,
29:13 in listening to this obvious fact,
29:19 because we cannot, we feel,
stand by ourselves,
29:28 we always want
to lean on somebody,
29:35 whether it is
the husband or the wife,
29:40 whether it is
your girlfriend or boyfriend,
29:42 or boyfriend
and another boyfriend,
29:48 we think, by leaning,
29:58 seeking comfort from another,
30:04 our brains have depended
on the authority of the spirit.
30:16 Please, do pay a little attention
to this if you are serious.
30:25 And so our brains
have been conditioned
30:30 to accept spiritual authority
30:34 – the priest, the guru,
the man who says,
30:37 ‘I am enlightened,
so I will lead you to that’.
30:44 A man who is enlightened,
30:48 when he says he is enlightened,
he is not,
30:55 because enlightenment is
not a thing to be experienced,
31:04 it is a state of mind,
31:06 and has gone beyond all thought.
31:11 We will go into that
when we talk later on
31:15 about meditation, and so on.
31:21 So can the mind, your brain,
31:23 which has been trained
to accept authority,
31:28 and therefore
its own particular discipline,
31:33 can that brain immediately
free itself from that authority,
31:41 not the authority of law,
31:46 not the authority of the policeman.
31:52 You may disagree
with the policeman,
31:55 but there is the common, supposed
to be a common protector, and so on.
32:02 The law that you must keep
to the right in these countries,
32:06 and in England keep to the left,
32:12 and so on.
32:14 Now, can you, in listening,
32:18 see the consequences
of accepting authority outside:
32:31 the authority of God
– you understand? –
32:38 the God who has been
invented by thought,
32:45 and the authority
of the worldwide priesthood
32:50 which says, ‘I will help you
to attain, help you to reach’.
32:58 You are following all this?
33:04 Because when you accept
such authority,
33:08 you must invariably
bring about disorder,
33:19 not only disorder in yourself,
33:24 but also the disorder
33:27 that brings about
different authorities:
33:34 the Islamic authorities,
33:39 the Buddhist authorities,
and so on.
33:45 They are all at each other.
33:52 As one very famous guru told me,
33:55 ‘I began with two disciples,
now I have got 10,000 disciples’.
34:07 You understand, sirs, all this?
34:17 So when there is
the acceptance
34:23 of psychological,
so-called spiritual,
34:31 the authority of the spirit,
the inwardness,
34:36 then there must be disorder,
34:40 because it brings
conflict in yourself.
34:47 You may say,
34:48 ‘I accept that authority
because it pleases me,
34:54 it gives me help,
it gives me a sense of protection’.
35:01 So you are depending
on another,
35:07 and when you depend on another,
35:10 the consequence is fear,
35:15 division,
35:18 and all the conflicts that go on
35:24 between what you are
and what you should be.
35:31 Right?
35:34 So the mind
– including the brain –
35:38 so the mind has
lived in this pattern
35:43 which is in the pattern of disorder.
35:49 Look at your own minds,
I don’t have to...
35:53 Look at your own mind,
35:58 how disorderly it is.
36:08 Disorder means conflict,
36:16 conflict between
what is going on,
36:21 the reactions, the responses,
the reflexes,
36:27 and the authority,
the sanctions,
36:32 the so-called
illuminatory dictatorship,
36:41 and the fact of what you are
– the conflict,
36:45 which is always the desire
to become something.
36:53 Right?
36:57 So the brain has lived
in this disorder,
37:04 going from one guru to another;
37:09 if you can’t find
enlightenment here,
37:12 you go off to Japan or India,
37:15 and that is
the latest racket.
37:23 Sir, truth is where you are,
37:27 not in India,
37:32 not in any other country,
or any other people.
37:40 It is where you are,
37:47 and where you are
with all your troubles, worries,
37:52 depressions,
and the miseries.
37:56 You have to finish with them
and go beyond.
38:05 Nobody on earth
can give you that
38:10 – freedom from sorrow,
freedom from anxiety.
38:16 It is only you that can do it.
38:19 So it is vain and useless
to go off to various countries,
38:26 seeking various
spiritual authorities
38:31 and living in their
concentration camp,
38:35 which is called ashramas,
38:39 this is the game
we have all played for millennia.
38:43 This is not something new.
38:48 For 2,000 years
38:51 the priests of the Western world
played this game.
38:57 And in India they have been
much longer at this.
39:03 So this is the cause
of our conflict
39:10 because we are
looking to another.
39:17 And can you, as you are listening,
as we are thinking together,
39:23 taking the journey,
walking over the same path,
39:28 not my path, your path
– the path of observation,
39:38 can you see what your mind,
your brain has become,
39:42 and end this sense
of spiritual authority immediately,
39:52 so that you,
who are humanity
40:01 – you are humanity,
you are not an individual,
40:07 because you go through
the same door of anxiety, misery,
40:14 uncertainty, fear, pleasure, sorrow,
as everybody in the world does,
40:24 so you are humanity,
you are the world,
40:29 and your brain is the world.
40:35 And if you see immediately
the truth of this fact,
40:41 that conflict, in essence,
40:47 comes when you are
accepting authority,
40:51 spiritual authority
from another.
40:58 And this conflict arises
not only from that,
41:02 but from being incapable
of observing actually
41:07 what is going on
within yourself,
41:11 without any distortion,
without any judgement,
41:15 just to watch it.
41:21 Because we must live in order.
41:29 Order is absolutely essential.
41:34 There is no relative order.
41:37 There is only order
or disorder.
41:44 You understand
what we have been saying?
41:48 Either there is complete order,
41:55 or there is only disorder.
41:59 It isn’t something
in between the two.
42:04 What is in between the two
is disorder.
42:13 So we must find out
what is order.
42:22 First of all,
42:25 to find out
what is absolute order.
42:30 There is such a thing
as absolute order
42:34 because the cosmos...
42:58 The cosmos means order.
43:03 The universe is in order.
43:11 But we human beings
live in disorder.
43:16 Nature is in order,
43:21 but when man interferes with nature,
43:24 he brings disorder
43:27 because in himself
he is in disorder.
43:32 Right, sirs?
43:39 So what is order?
43:47 Is it the end of conflict?
43:52 Go slowly.
43:53 We will go into it very carefully,
step by step.
43:57 Please, you are not following me,
the speaker.
44:06 You are observing your own
structure of yourself.
44:14 The word ‘structure’ there
means movement.
44:19 Movement of yourself,
44:23 because you are
a living entity.
44:29 You can see something dead,
44:32 but if you are a living thing,
it is a movement.
44:38 And this movement of life
is disorder.
44:46 We may have occasionally
some kind of peace, quietness,
44:57 but the quietness,
the peace and the silence
45:01 that is cultivated by thought
through so-called meditation
45:07 or going off,
doing all kinds of tricks,
45:11 is not silence, peace.
45:21 So we are now thinking together
– I mean thinking together.
45:29 I am not telling you
what order is,
45:35 which means you must live this way,
that way, the other way.
45:43 Thinking together
to find out for ourselves
45:49 whether there is
an absolute order.
45:53 Or must man everlastingly
live in disorder?
46:03 So disorder and order
cannot go together.
46:11 A disordered mind
cannot find order.
46:17 That is simple.
46:19 So we must find out
what brings about disorder in us.
46:27 Right?
46:29 Not try to find out
what is order.
46:34 It is like a blind, ignorant man
trying to find out heaven.
46:44 I mean blind man in the sense,
an ignorant man.
46:51 He must be free of ignorance,
47:00 So a disordered mind can never find
what is absolute order.
47:08 Now, what causes disorder?
47:15 As we said the other day,
47:19 when there is a cause,
there must be an end to it.
47:23 That is a law.
47:25 Right?
I don’t know if you see that.
47:30 Where there is a beginning,
there must be an ending.
47:38 If there is cause
for a physical pain
47:43 – right? –
47:44 it can be ended,
47:48 either in death,
or there is a cure for it.
47:55 If you have a bad toothache,
47:58 the cause is infection,
48:03 and that infection
which is causing pain
48:06 can be ended.
48:10 Right?
48:12 So there must be
a cause for disorder.
48:18 You are following all this?
48:23 Right?
48:24 Are we together
at least a little bit,
48:26 for a little while?
48:30 Right?
48:34 Andiamo?
Va bene.
48:41 We are saying there must be
a cause for this disorder.
48:46 What is the cause?
48:48 Are there several causes
for disorder in our life,
48:53 or there is only one factor
that brings about disorder?
48:58 You are understanding
my question?
49:02 not my question,
your question.
49:11 First of all, are we aware
that we live in disorder?
49:20 I think that is fairly clear.
We are.
49:24 We may have
patches of sunlight,
49:30 but most of the day we live,
as we are doing now,
49:34 with rain and clouds.
49:39 So we are not talking
about patches of order,
49:44 which are really
the forgetfulness of disorder.
49:55 So what is the cause of it?
49:59 Or are there several causes?
50:11 There must be disorder
when there is contradiction,
50:22 not only in your action,
50:28 which is not only in your thought
– in your behaviour.
50:32 Contradiction –
saying one thing and doing another.
50:39 Obviously.
50:42 And there must be disorder
as long as we are conforming.
50:52 Right?
50:53 Conforming to an idea,
to an ideal,
50:59 to an image
which has been created by another.
51:08 All right?
51:11 Which is:
51:12 as long as there is contradiction
51:18 in ourselves,
between action and the fact,
51:25 between what we think
and what we do.
51:32 Right?
51:34 That is:
51:38 as long as man, mind
51:41 is trying to change
‘what is’ into ‘what should be’,
51:51 there must be disorder.
51:57 The totalitarian Communist world
have their theoreticians,
52:05 according to Marx and Engles
and Lenin and Stalin – all that,
52:09 and have created a concept,
52:17 an ideological world,
52:21 and the people there,
in their authority, in their power,
52:26 are shaping man to conform to that.
52:32 You are following?
52:34 This is what
all religions have done.
52:39 There is not much difference
52:41 there is a certain difference
52:43 between the totalitarian world
52:47 and the religious world
and the fascists.
52:54 They are all following
the same path,
52:58 perhaps mildly,
gently, forcefully,
53:03 aggressively, threatening,
53:06 but it is the same direction.
53:14 So is that the root
of this cause of disorder?
53:23 Please, go slowly,
don’t immediately say, ‘That is’.
53:27 Think it out.
53:32 Or there must be disorder
53:36 as long as thought
dominates our actions.
53:49 Because as we said,
53:51 thought is the response of memory.
54:02 That memory is the result
of experience, knowledge
54:08 stored up in the brain,
in the cells.
54:12 So thought is always limited
54:17 because knowledge
is always limited.
54:20 There can be no complete knowledge.
54:24 Are you following all this?
54:35 See what man has done.
54:39 He knows probably
deeply unconsciously
54:43 that there can be no complete
knowledge about anything,
54:48 so he says, ‘God’
– whatever that is –
54:52 ‘is omnipotent, omniscient’,
and so on, so on, so on.
54:57 So look what he has done:
55:02 knowing his limitation,
55:08 his knowledge must
always be limited,
55:11 he creates something which is
total knowledge – omniscient –
55:19 and struggles to reach that.
55:22 You follow the game?
55:23 You see
what man is doing all the time.
55:29 So we are saying, asking:
55:32 is thought responsible
for disorder?
55:38 Please, this requires
a great deal of thinking,
55:40 don’t just say, yes or no.
55:47 Thought has created
the opposite,
55:52 not the fact,
but the opposite.
55:58 That is:
I am unhappy,
56:06 but I have known happiness
at some period,
56:11 and the remembrance of that
56:15 is a contradiction to ‘what is’
– you are following this?
56:20 Yes?
56:23 I wonder.
56:25 So thought has created the opposite,
which is non-fact.
56:33 What is fact is what is going on,
what is happening.
56:41 The fact is
human beings are violent.
56:45 That is a fact.
56:47 But thought has said:
I must achieve non-violence,
56:54 which is the opposite of ‘what is’
– right? –
56:59 so there is conflict.
57:06 But if there is no opposite,
57:11 there is only this,
57:14 then you can deal with this.
57:16 You are following?
57:17 You can always
deal with facts,
57:21 but not with non-facts.
57:24 I wonder if you see this.
57:27 Am I making this too complex?
57:30 Too abstract?
57:32 No, it is too practical,
I am afraid!
57:43 So is that the basic cause
of our disorder?
57:51 You follow?
57:53 The cause is to become something,
57:57 always trying to become.
57:59 I am ignorant
– I must know more.
58:03 I don’t know enlightenment
– I must achieve enlightenment.
58:08 My mind is in conflict,
58:11 – I must make it quiet.
58:15 It is the same principle
58:18 as the clerk becoming the executive,
58:24 the parish priest
becoming the bishop,
58:28 and the bishop
becoming the cardinal,
58:30 and the cardinal
becoming the pope.
58:33 You understand?
The same principle.
58:38 Is that the cause
of our disorder?
58:47 You see, we live in disorder,
58:51 and then thought says,
‘I must live in order’.
58:58 So it creates
a pattern of order,
59:03 a pattern of values
which are order,
59:09 a pattern of behaviour
– you understand?
59:15 Being in disorder,
59:18 thought then creates
what it thinks is order,
59:23 and the conflict begins.
59:30 So is that the cause
of our daily existence in disorder?
59:41 If that is the cause,
it can be ended.
59:46 Now just a minute.
59:46 Follow it carefully,
it can be ended.
59:54 Your next question is: how?
59:58 You are back again
into the old principle
1:00:01 of ‘tell me what to do’.
1:00:07 You are following all this?
1:00:10 Oh, for God’s sake, come on, sir!
1:00:13 Right?
1:00:16 One sees this fact
1:00:20 that thought
creates the opposite,
1:00:29 and the opposite then
becomes important
1:00:34 in order to relieve the fact,
to go beyond the fact.
1:00:40 That is, I am violent
– suppose, one is violent.
1:00:43 It creates its opposite,
1:00:46 because it thinks,
by creating the opposite,
1:00:50 through conflict,
it can be free of violence.
1:00:56 But conflict itself is violence.
1:00:59 I wonder
if you understand all this!
1:01:04 Right?
1:01:05 Can we go on?
1:01:12 So, can the mind, which has lived
in the pattern of opposites,
1:01:19 which is the pattern
of non-facts,
1:01:24 that is, when there is violence,
that is a fact,
1:01:28 the non-violence
is non-fact,
1:01:33 the ideal is non-fact.
1:01:39 So can the mind live, look,
observe only the fact,
1:01:47 without moving away
from the fact?
1:01:51 I wonder
if you have understood this.
1:01:53 That is, to move away
means to suppress,
1:01:57 to try to go beyond,
to evade it, to analyse it,
1:02:02 is moving away from this,
from the fact of violence.
1:02:10 Right?
1:02:11 Are you doing it
as we are talking?
1:02:13 Or you are just being
carried away by the words?
1:02:23 So the brain has lived
in this pattern of fact and non-fact
1:02:29 – right? –
and so created the conflict.
1:02:34 When one sees the futility,
the absurdity of this,
1:02:43 then you are only left with fact.
1:02:49 Right?
1:02:51 Then how do you
observe the fact?
1:02:59 You are not getting tired?
Can we go on?
1:03:04 How do you observe the fact?
1:03:08 That is, the fact is violence.
1:03:15 We said violence is
a state of contradiction,
1:03:19 a state of following somebody,
1:03:24 spiritually, philosophically,
ideationally, psychologically,
1:03:31 following somebody,
1:03:34 and there is a division
between you and that,
1:03:39 the guru and you,
1:03:41 and the clever guru says,
‘We are all one’.
1:03:45 You follow?
That is the game they play!
1:03:51 So we are saying:
1:03:53 can you observe the fact
1:03:57 without any movement
away from it?
1:04:07 Right?
Can we go on?
1:04:10 So we are saying:
how do you observe the fact?
1:04:15 Are you giving a direction
to the fact?
1:04:21 You understand what I mean?
1:04:23 Are you looking at the fact
with a motive,
1:04:26 which is to direct it
– right?
1:04:32 Please, all this requires
tremendous attention.
1:04:53 We are saying:
how do you look at the fact?
1:05:01 There is only fact.
1:05:03 Right?
Not its opposite.
1:05:07 So the fact is all important,
not how you translate the fact.
1:05:19 Right?
1:05:20 Because then the translator
of the fact,
1:05:27 he is translating according
to his previous knowledge – right?
1:05:36 and therefore
when he translates the fact,
1:05:40 he is moving
away from the fact.
1:05:44 Right?
Are you all asleep?
1:05:51 So, is there an observation
without the translator,
1:06:01 without the interpreter,
without the observer?
1:06:09 If there is a division
between the translator of the fact,
1:06:16 obviously, he creates conflict.
1:06:20 You are following this?
1:06:23 So, to end conflict,
the translator is absent.
1:06:33 Then there is only
pure observation.
1:06:39 When there is pure observation,
the fact is not.
1:06:44 I wonder if you see that.
1:06:47 Vous avez compris?
1:06:50 You understand?
1:06:51 As long as the translator
is doing something,
1:06:55 he is creating the fact.
1:07:05 But if the translator,
the interpreter,
1:07:08 the thinker, the observer,
is not,
1:07:11 the fact is non-existent.
1:07:15 I’ll show you why.
1:07:17 Are you interested in all this?
1:07:21 No, no
– do it!
1:07:25 Otherwise it has no value,
1:07:29 then it becomes
an intellectual game.
1:07:35 What is the fact?
1:07:38 The fact is violence.
1:07:41 I am taking that as an example.
1:07:44 The fact is violence.
What is violence?
1:07:51 Imitation.
1:07:55 Conformity, comparison, anger, hate
– right? –
1:08:02 jealousy, fear, sorrow.
Those are all facts.
1:08:07 Depression, elation,
1:08:15 sorrow – all that,
is a fact.
1:08:19 When you say it is a fact,
what does that mean?
1:08:24 Is it a fact because you have
remembered that thing
1:08:29 which is happening now, in the past
– you follow what I am?..
1:08:34 You are following this?
No, you are not.
1:08:46 I am greedy now.
1:08:52 The word ‘greed’, the word,
is not the fact
1:08:59 – right?
1:09:02 Right?
1:09:05 But by using the word ‘greed’
I have identified it
1:09:09 because I have used
that word previously.
1:09:15 Right?
1:09:17 The previous recognition
of the fact,
1:09:20 of what is happening,
1:09:22 is what we call fact.
1:09:28 Are you also working with me?
1:09:35 So by naming it,
you have recognised it.
1:09:42 Right?
1:09:43 And so you have
placed it in the past.
1:09:52 See what we have done.
1:09:59 Take a very simple example:
one is angry.
1:10:05 At the moment of anger
there is no recognition as anger.
1:10:13 There is only the reflex to it,
to a hurt, to whatever it is.
1:10:19 A reaction.
1:10:22 At the moment of reaction there is
no sense of ‘By Jove, I am angry’.
1:10:27 It only takes place
a second or two later.
1:10:33 Why?
1:10:36 Because the mind, thought,
has recognised the fact
1:10:44 according to the past remembrance.
1:10:53 So it is dealing with ‘what is’
in terms of the past – right? –
1:10:59 which then creates conflict.
1:11:03 Are you following this?
1:11:06 So is there an observation
without the word,
1:11:15 without remembering
this is violence?
1:11:20 You understand?
Vous avez compris?
1:11:24 The moment the process
of recognition, thought, begins,
1:11:28 it becomes non-fact.
1:11:33 Right?
1:11:35 Is this too difficult?
1:11:39 It is fairly simple isn’t it?
1:11:43 I am angry
1:11:46 – I have never been,
but I am angry –
1:11:50 and at the moment of anger
1:11:53 there is only this
adrenaline active.
1:11:58 Then a few seconds later
thought says, ‘I have been angry’,
1:12:06 which is the recognition
1:12:09 of that which has happened
in terms of the past.
1:12:15 Right?
1:12:18 Now, therefore the past
and the present are in conflict.
1:12:25 So can you...
1:12:36 So can you observe
without the word,
1:12:46 can you observe
without the translator,
1:12:53 the thinker who says,
1:12:55 ‘I remember that,
it has happened again’?
1:13:03 That which is happening
has never happened again.
1:13:09 I wonder if you see that.
1:13:13 It is only the remembrance
of that,
1:13:16 from that you say
it has happened again.
1:13:19 This is too much for you!
1:13:26 So the pattern, which the mind, the
brain, and so the thought, has set,
1:13:34 has lived in this conflict
from time immemorial.
1:13:41 And we are saying,
the cause of it is this.
1:13:46 And where there is a cause,
it can be ended.
1:13:51 The cause is
1:13:54 the division between
the actual happening
1:13:58 and what it should not happen,
the ideal.
1:14:06 So the ideal is non-fact,
1:14:13 Only what is actually happening.
1:14:18 The actual happening
is my anxiety,
1:14:24 my fear,
my desperate loneliness.
1:14:35 And when there is observation
of that loneliness,
1:14:40 the word says, I know
what it means to have been lonely
1:14:44 because I have known it in the past.
1:14:48 So the past is in conflict
with the present.
1:14:52 You understand this?
1:14:54 So is there an observation
without the past?
1:15:00 Of course, there can be.
1:15:03 Then the fact is not.
1:15:10 It is the translator,
the thinker,
1:15:17 the interpreter, the observer,
who is creating the fact.
1:15:22 I wonder if you see this.
1:15:26 You understand?
1:15:27 The fact is I am angry.
1:15:31 The moment I smother it
with a lot of words and ideas,
1:15:37 I give it importance,
I strengthen it.
1:15:41 The moment I cease
to give the past history to it
1:15:47 it withers away
– you understand?
1:15:50 Go to it, try it.
Do it, sir!
1:16:00 So we are saying:
1:16:03 the cause of disorder
is this conflict
1:16:10 between what is taking place,
going on,
1:16:13 and what should be.
1:16:22 If there were no opposite,
non-violence – you follow? –
1:16:27 I then have to deal with it,
the thing as is.
1:16:31 I wonder if you are moving.
You understand this?
1:16:36 So we are saying:
1:16:39 man has lived in disorder,
1:16:44 and he has looked
for somebody else,
1:16:48 an outside agency,
1:16:50 to clear up this disorder,
1:16:53 both politically, economically,
1:16:57 and religiously,
so-called spiritually.
1:17:02 The moment he does that
he has created the division.
1:17:08 Right?
1:17:10 Where there is division
there must be conflict:
1:17:16 the Jew and the Arab,
the Muslim and the Hindu,
1:17:20 the Christian and
the not-Christian.
1:17:28 So there is only fact
and not non-fact.
1:17:35 Quelle heure est il?
1:17:50 We have got three more talks:
1:17:56 Tuesday, Thursday,
and next Sunday.
1:18:01 And we have to deal
with a great many more things still.
1:18:06 We have to go together,
think together,
1:18:10 to find out
if man can ever be free of fear,
1:18:17 completely free of fear,
1:18:23 both the fear of the world,
1:18:26 and fear of what is happening
– fear, inside.
1:18:32 And also one has to go
into the question
1:18:36 of this very complex
problem of pleasure.
1:18:47 And the still more complex
problem of death
1:18:52 and the ending of sorrow.
1:18:55 And also we have to go into,
talk over together,
1:19:03 the meaning of meditation.
1:19:10 So we have three more talks,
1:19:12 and we will go into all this
in as much detail as possible.
1:19:21 Finished, sirs.