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SD71DYP2 - A possibility of change
San Diego, California - 29 March 1971
Discussion with Young People 2



1:09 Krishnamurti: What shall we talk over together this morning?
1:16 Questioner: Sir, may I ask, since this is the last meeting, it seems to me that it would be good to talk over very simple issues, such as the necessity of seeing totally the pain and the conflict within ourselves and the necessity of seeing the danger of it and rejecting it completely.
1:43 And it seems to me that you must have a sensitive mind and I would like to ask you about anything that would help you to have a sensitive mind or to bring the pain to the fore, to see it.
1:57 K: I understand, sir. May I repeat the question or have you all heard it?
2:12 The question is how to make the mind sensitive, and as most of us have so much pain both psychological and physical, so many hurts, how to bring all that out into the open and see the whole problem totally – that's the question, isn't it, sir?
2:53 How to make the mind sensitive.
3:01 Obviously, one must have, mustn't one, a very sensitive body first, the organism.
3:15 You agree to that? That means no smoking obviously, no alcohol, no drugs, regular exercise, and allow the body to have its own intelligence and not the intelligence of thought imposed on the body.
3:54 Then one must have, mustn't one, a heart, compassion and love, which is not merely directed to one person but to have that sense of feeling for everybody – courtesy, thoughtfulness, quality of consideration – all that is implied when one talks of compassion.
4:46 And also to have a very sensitive mind, obviously the first thing is not to have conflict because conflict distorts, and whether it is possible at all to live a life in this world with all the bestiality, the appalling things that are happening in the world, the violence, whether to live in this world, possibly with no effort at all.
5:35 Which means no distortion, because any form of effort is a form of distortion, isn't it?
5:50 And there is distortion when there is contradiction in oneself.
6:03 Contradiction, which is, wanting to do something and opposed to that; the conflict of various desires and urges, the conflict of various forms of demands, compulsions and so on.
6:30 This contradiction in oneself does obviously prevent not only distortion but brings about a sense of weariness to the mind. Right?
6:49 So, is it possible sanely, harmoniously to live in this world without conflict?
7:01 That is, conflict between the mind, the heart and the organism, psychosomatically to live a life without any form of distortion.
7:20 That implies a harmony between the mind and the heart and the organism.
7:30 Now, how is this to come about? Right, sir?
7:38 Theoretically, anything is possible and most of us indulge in theories, in speculation, in what should be.
7:55 When one discards totally every form of speculation, formulation, ideation, then one is actually confronted with 'what is'.
8:18 'What is' is that one's mind is pretty dull, burdened with all kinds of beliefs, frightened and so on.
8:31 And for most of us love is sexual and we have actually spoilt our bodies.
8:44 So how to bring about a harmony, a sensitivity in the whole of one's existence?
9:04 May I go on? Are you interested in this? You know, if I may point out, this is a very serious business.
9:18 It isn't something you play with.
9:25 It isn't something you take up for a year because it's the hobby, the latest fashion, and drop it and pick up something else next year, if it lasts a year, I doubt it even.
9:44 So what we are talking about is a very serious thing, one has to give ones life to it. It isn't a play thing.
9:58 The question is how to live a life in this monstrous world – and not run away from it – harmoniously, with a great deal of intelligence, sanity, and yet have a very subtle, supple mind and heart.
10:36 Is there any system that will bring this about?
10:44 When we ask the question how, that is what is implied; a system, isn't it, a method.
10:55 That is, do certain things, practise every day and eventually you will have this extraordinary supple mind.
11:11 Obviously, a method is a contradiction to a supple mind because if you practise over and over again a particular system or method, then the mind becomes mechanical, rather dull.
11:36 So, when one observes and sees the truth of that matter, that no system can possibly help, then one has to be tremendously aware now.
11:59 Aware with great intensity – which cannot possibly be produced through any drug, chemicals – to be aware totally.
12:19 And again, there is no system that will teach you to be aware.
12:26 One can be aware if one wants to be, and most of us are too lazy, indolent, because life is rather shoddy, meaningless, and so we'd rather drift, but to be actually aware of everything that is going on about one.
12:57 And also what's going on inwardly without any choice, just to observe, to be aware.
13:08 That makes the mind extraordinarily supple, sensitive.
13:19 And the highest form of sensitivity is intelligence.
13:27 Right? Any other question sir? Just a minute, madame. May I take my coat off? It's so hot in here.
13:46 Q: Could you define creativity, and differentiate between creativity and accomplishment?
13:55 K: What is the difference between creativity and accomplishment.
14:03 Do you want a definition? Then you will have to look up a dictionary. Or do you want to find out by inquiring, thinking over together, the question of what is creativity and accomplishment; to accomplish something and to create something.
14:32 Can there be any form of creativity if there is any contradiction within oneself?
14:44 Can there be creativity in frustration?
14:57 Or does creativity take place when the mind is completely harmonious without any distortion?
15:13 You know, especially in this country, if I may point out, frustration has become an extraordinarily important thing.
15:32 One feels there is a magic in frustration, and one feels there is a power in frustration.
15:46 The writers, the intellectual people are actually very frustrated human beings, and in that frustration with its strains and tensions they are capable of writing something or the other, and that they consider creativity.
16:15 And if one really goes into it very, very closely, what is it to be creative and why does one want to be creative?
16:35 You understand? Why this craving to be creative?
16:42 To show-off? To have money? To have prestige?
16:53 To have fame? To be applauded?
17:02 Or, creativity has nothing whatsoever to do with social applause.
17:17 So one has to go into this question – if you want to – of whether creativity demands expression at all.
17:34 And is not all expression self-expression?
17:46 And can there be creativity when the self is all-important, which demands expression?
18:01 Are we sharing this thing together, moving together?
18:13 Or the frustrated human beings feel that they must create instead of finding out what it means to be frustrated.
18:33 What does it mean to be frustrated?
18:42 In frustration isn't there comparison?
18:51 Measurement? I compare myself with the most famous man – he is well-known, writes well, applauded, has a good house, big car, and naturally in California, a swimming pool – and I feel rather inferior, frustrated in comparison, and I want to be as creative as that man.
19:39 And is creation comparative?
19:48 And is creation a thing of thought? And when there is creation, does it demand self-expression at all? Or creation comes into being only when the self is not?
20:08 When the ego, the personality, the shoddy little movement of the 'me' is not.
20:15 Then there is a possibility of that state where there is creativity, which may or may not demand any form of expression.
20:30 Look sir, when there is tremendous joy – not pleasure – which is entirely different from pleasure, you forget all expression.
20:49 There is a sense of great ecstasy, beauty.
20:57 And we lose it and remember the moment of that joy and ecstasy and want to recapture that moment.
21:10 The desire to recapture that moment is pleasure. It's nothing whatsoever to do with ecstasy or joy.
21:22 And what is accomplishment? To accomplish something – to build a bridge, to pass an exam – to accomplish.
21:37 Has accomplishment anything to do with creativity? Obviously not.
21:46 So, if one really pursues deeply and seriously this whole question of creation, one must go into this question of self-expression, in which lies frustration, accomplishment, achievement, and so on, success.
22:22 And for most of us the goddess of success is the greatest goddess.
22:31 It has nothing whatsoever to do with creation. Right, sir. That lady wants to ask.
22:40 Q: Well, I was going to ask you about what you said before. You said that making an effort was distortion. I didn't want to interrupt you, but I didn't agree with that. And later on when you were saying that being aware or conscious of your inner self and everything that goes on around you, and things like that.
23:08 I was thinking that, I know for most people it's probably a real effort, and in order to be conscious you have to really think about it, you have to work daily with that to grow, I think.
23:26 And myself, I look at life and say, 'I'm going to try, really work hard and be a good kid' like this.
23:36 And I think that's a real effort and something to move towards, and I thought was in contradiction to what you said, and I wanted to know what you think about that.
23:49 K: First of all, if I may point out, it is not a question of agreement or disagreement.
24:01 We are not trying to persuade you or you persuade me to something; we are examining together.
24:11 To examine together one must be free of one's particular form of conclusion, obviously, otherwise you can't possibly examine.
24:24 So it's not a question of agreement or disagreement.
24:32 We have made effort, that's part of our culture, part of our education to make tremendous effort.
24:46 When we are lazy, we make an effort to get up, to be active. When we are very, very active we try to soften down, control, and so on. We are trained to make effort.
25:05 Now, what is implied in effort?
25:14 There is the maker of effort and the thing towards which he is making effort. Right? Isn't it? The entity that makes the effort in order to achieve something, in order to become something, or in order to get rid of something – effort implies the getting rid of, negatively or positively, by an entity who says, 'I must get rid of this,' or, 'I must hold that.' That's implied in effort.
26:00 Right, madame? Right. Now, who is the maker of effort?
26:17 Is not the maker of the effort the entity towards which he is making effort?
26:28 Are they not both the same?
26:35 I make an effort not to be angry.
26:43 Who is the 'I' that is making the effort? Is not the 'I' part of that anger? No? So what am I making effort for? Either to suppress it, control it, change it and so on. So the question is, as long as there is the maker of the effort and the thing towards which he is making effort, when there is this duality, this division, there must be conflict.
27:27 Look sir, put it nationalistically.
27:35 When there is a division between Germany and France nationally, there must be conflict.
27:44 Pakistan and India, China and Russia; division – the Catholic and the Protestant, the Jew and the non-Jew – the whole division.
27:56 Obviously when there is such a division there must inevitably be conflict. You may tolerate it, but toleration is another form of conflict.
28:10 It is only an intellectual concept that you must tolerate people, but actually when you say, 'I must tolerate,' you dislike them.
28:20 So, conflict exists as long as there is a division between the thinker and the thought, between the experiencer and the thing experienced.
28:46 So, why do we make effort at all?
28:55 Why do we not see actually 'what is'? I am angry – not 'me' separate from anger – I am angry, that's a fact.
29:11 Now what shall I do with it? You follow? Shall I come into conflict, put it away, and therefore create further conflict, or is there a way of looking at it non-dualistically?
29:37 Non-dualistically in the sense non-divided – the observer and the observed.
29:47 Is it possible to observe anger without the observer?
29:54 You are following? The observer is the image, is the conclusion, is the knowledge, is the sensor.
30:13 Now, is there an observation without the sensor? That is, can I observe the flower without any image – which is the naming, botanical knowledge, and so on – just to observe?
30:39 In the same way, to observe anger without associations.
30:49 The moment I associate the present anger to the past angers, then I strengthen the present anger.
31:00 No? Probably you haven't done all these things. Do it sometime and you will see for yourself how it works. That is, to observe jealousy without the word, because the moment you say, 'I am jealous,' you have already recognised it.
31:31 That recognition only strengthens the past, and when you have named it you have strengthened it, put it into a category.
31:46 Whereas if you don't name it, just to observe, then you will see that you can observe anger and go beyond anger without effort.
32:01 There will be freedom from anger.
32:10 Yes, sir?
32:34 I haven't heard, sir, I'm sorry.
32:39 Q: I think you have to try and understand the relevancy of your anger. A lot of people who have these stuck-up principles where any little thing, and they fly off the handle. The best thing to do is just ignore your immediate emotion of anger, because it's just flying off the handle.
33:02 Does that make sense?
33:04 K: I understand, sir. You mean, ignore anger.
33:07 Q: No, try and put it in its relevancy. Try and make it as important as it really is in your infinite life.
33:16 K: Yes, but suppose you are angry and you hit me, I can't very well call it irrelevant.
33:28 Q: If someone hits you, then it gets right down to brutality, and that's something to run away from or to stop.
33:38 K: No, sir.
33:45 The whole question is, isn't it, here we are living in a particular culture, educated in certain ways, and so on, our whole life is a battlefield, not only outwardly but inwardly, mostly inwardly.
34:09 And that's no life at all. To be inwardly in constant battle with oneself, I don't know how you stand it but I couldn't.
34:25 Because that means living a life of total disorder.
34:33 Q: Surrender.
34:34 K: Totally destructive. You know what it means to live with oneself day after day till you die, in conflict – that's no living at all.
34:48 So one wants to find out if there is a way of living without conflict – not a particular conflict – totally, at all the levels, not only at the superficial level but deep down, never to have a single movement of conflict.
35:12 Then one can live at peace, then you will know what it means to live with an extraordinary sense of joy and ecstasy and passion.
35:21 So, one must find that out. And therefore one has to inquire why human beings for millions of years have lived in conflict.
35:40 And they have tried to escape from this life by saying an outside agency is going to help me – God, super-self, the avatar – you know, all the business.
35:57 And unfortunately, no outside agency is going to help you. So one has to find out what it means to be in conflict, why one is in conflict.
36:11 Now, please follow this a little bit. which is, when you say, 'Why am I in conflict?' then you are looking for the cause, aren't you?
36:24 There are a dozen causes why you are in conflict – culture, individual desires, being brought up wrongly from childhood, all the analytical reasons that one has been given, all the explanations and the causes are there.
36:48 We all know them very well. Why spend a single second on the causation of conflict?
37:00 You are following this? It is so obvious.
37:08 And to see the truth of this whole structure of conflict and understand it.
37:18 And you understand something only when you look at it very quietly, when your mind can observe silently.
37:33 Then out of that silence you understand and act immediately.
37:45 Q: Can we find a solution to so many distortions – the external world of reality like mass poverty, starvation, imperialism and so many innumerable problems?
38:10 So, don't you think that an effort to bring about a solution to this external distortion is a positive effort?
38:20 K: Right, sir. One sees in the world so much poverty, so much social disorder, imperialism, exploitation, war, you know, what is happening in the world.
38:54 Shouldn't one make an effort to change all that.
39:04 Right sir, that's the question, isn't it?
39:07 Q: Yes.
39:13 K: Do you know what poverty is? Do you? We do in India, we have been brought up on it. You don't know what it means, really. Now, how is this poverty going to be changed? Not only in America but in Europe and in India, altogether.
39:43 That's a problem, isn't it? How is this going to be changed completely so that everybody has food, clothing and shelter?
39:56 Is it going to be brought about through a particular system, communist, capitalist or socialist, or what you will – will it be brought about?
40:08 Will it be brought about as long as there are nationalistic divisions?
40:18 Which means, economic divisions; India economically trying to be independent of the other country, division, division, division?
40:27 Are you going to destroy, get rid of poverty as long as there are wars?
40:35 And there will be wars as long as there are nationalistic divisions, economic divisions.
40:46 And who has brought about this mess in the world?
40:54 Which we all want to change – it isn't just you, the communist or the anti-imperialist or the pro-this or that – we all want to bring about a change, a radical change, because there is so much disorder, so much injustice.
41:17 And they have said follow the communist method, system, thought, it will solve it, but it hasn't.
41:28 And so one asks, 'Why does this exist? Who has brought this about?'
41:39 The imperialist? The communist? The socialist? The catholic, the protestant? Why has this state come into being? Who has brought it?
42:00 Q: Man.
42:01 K: Exactly. You, all of us. See, we avoid that issue. That gentleman is gone. You see, that's just what I mean. You put a question and don't take the interest, and go away.
42:23 Who has brought this about? You and I. Unless we change, the world cannot possibly change. That's a rational, sane fact. I don't know why we don't see it. We think organisations are going to change this, but you may have a perfect organisation but it will be run by human beings.
42:53 And if the human being is corrupt, however perfect the organisation is, he will corrupt the organisation. This is a simple fact.
43:06 So we come to the fundamental issue, which is, change in our consciousness.
43:17 You may say, 'That will take a long time.'
43:24 But any other way will also take a much longer time, and you will never produce order in the world.
43:35 Whereas if each one of us is really serious, dedicated to this thing – not to marijuana, drugs, and the latest kind of idiotic style or the latest guru from India – when you are really seriously involved in this totally then there is a possibility of change.
44:07 Q: Sir, just to follow up on this question, I don't think that we should ask right now how this disorder came about.
44:20 We looked around and we have found ourselves within this conflict. The gentleman who asked the question before me, he addressed himself to the situation today, and then he did not want to know who was responsible for this.
44:36 I agree with you that we have to change our consciousness but the question is how – right now, how?
44:43 I say that disorder is there, the conflict is in the society. Yes, I do want to change myself but I am weak before the forces of the society. Therefore I say, and I believe the gentleman said, first get rid of the conflicts in the society.
45:02 When I find myself in a society without any conflicts I will correct myself. And may I add that I do not agree with you that the philosophy of communism has failed. It is in a process of improving its philosophy, they are not there yet but in due time. Thank you.
45:23 K: The gentleman wants to know – need I repeat it?
45:31 The gentleman wants to know how to change now, because the conflict is in the society.
45:42 And without changing society, we cannot possibly change ourselves.
45:50 Right, sir?
45:52 Q: I said, I am weak before the forces of the society, therefore it is very hard for me to change without changing society in the process.
46:02 K: Yes. I am weak, I am incapable, but society must be changed. Right?
46:15 The conflict in society must be changed. The corruption in society must be changed. Who is going to change it? If I am corrupt, if I am weak, if I am lost in my misery, who is going to change this conflict in society?
46:41 It's not agreeing with me, sir – please don't agree with me at all, or disagree.
46:48 The problem is this: I want to – what's the good of my repeating it?
46:56 There must be change. If you went to India or any country you will see the overpopulation, the poverty, the degradation, the horror that is going on, one meal a day or even less.
47:18 And all this is multiplying, and I say to myself, being a serious human being, I say, 'What system will solve this?'
47:29 Obviously no system can, because we create the system, and to run that system we must change ourselves.
47:39 Then we are back again.
47:43 Q: Sir, could we enquire into the nature of a true religious life, looking into renunciation?
47:59 K: What is a truly religious life?
48:07 Is it chastity? Is it renunciation? Is it a withdrawal from life?
48:18 That's the question; what is truly a religious life?
48:30 To find that out, one must negate what it is not. Right? Negate, that is, see the false and the very seeing of the false is the truth.
48:51 Obviously, belief is not a religious life, is it – believing in God or not believing in God, belonging to one particular group, Catholic, Protestant, Hindu or Buddhist or whatever it is – that's not a religious life.
49:13 Right? We'll go on? Please do it, not just agree with it. It is not all the rituals, all the circus that goes on in the name of religion is not religion at all.
49:33 It's not my opinion – you can observe it.
49:40 Now, we come to the point: what is chastity?
49:50 Because man has always said, in every religious endeavour, that you must be chaste, that you must have no sex, and he says you must have no sex because it wastes your energy.
50:19 And therefore don't look at a woman – control, suppress, think on the image of a religious entity, a saint, Jesus, and so on, and try to get away from this physical demand, physical compartment, physical sensory urges.
50:54 That has been, generally, the accepted norm of religious life.
51:04 So, one has to find out what is chastity, not according to the tradition because tradition says – both in India, here and everywhere – don't marry, don't have sex, lead a very austere life, the tradition says this.
51:33 So one has to reject tradition, which is very difficult.
51:44 Which doesn't mean that by rejecting tradition you can do what you please, allow every form of permissiveness.
51:57 Now, to find out what is chastity, because that's very important to find out – a chaste mind.
52:17 Surely, a chaste mind is a mind that has no image.
52:28 All right?
52:33 Q: No.
52:35 K: Wait madame, don't agree or disagree. Then in that relationship between two images, can there be chastity?
52:49 You are following this?
52:52 Q: I am following it but I would tend to debate the necessity for chastity in the first place.
52:57 K: Wait. I did not say the necessity of it. I said what does it mean to be chaste? We will find out whether it is necessary or not, later, but first I might know what it means before I say it is necessary or it is not necessary.
53:24 My mind in relationship has many images, obviously.
53:35 No? I am hurt, I am flattered, all the sexual images and pleasures.
53:51 And when I have these images is there any kind of relationship at all?
54:03 What do you say, sirs? Is it time? What am I to do?
54:09 Q: Go on.
54:12 Q: I would like to ask a question concerning peace of mind.
54:17 K: Look, how can I answer that when the gentleman asked, somebody asked, what is a religious life?
54:25 We are still dealing with that question.
54:28 Q: Oh, I'm sorry.
54:40 K: Isn't freedom – not what you like to do, that's not freedom at all, that is disorder – isn't freedom absolutely necessary?
54:58 How can there be freedom if there is this whole machinery of image building going on?
55:14 That is, the image I have built about you and the image that you have built about me, which means division and therefore no relationship.
55:34 And a mind that is full of these images can never be free, as thought can never be free for thought is always old, because it is born of memory.
55:59 And chastity is the freedom from every form of image building, because then only there is a possibility of relationship.
56:27 And that chastity is denied when thought is building images.
56:37 The image building is a form of pleasure, which has nothing to do with joy.
56:50 You may have a moment of ecstasy, then thought says, 'I must have that moment again. I want it repeated.'
57:02 The repetition is merely the continuity of pleasure, which has nothing whatsoever to do with joy.
57:12 So as most of us are pursuing pleasure and therefore building various forms of images, such a mind is obviously not free and therefore not chaste.
57:26 And chastity is essential because otherwise we are just caught in a trap of our own image making. That's all.
57:41 I am afraid I have to stop, sorry.
57:45 Q: Would you recommend fasting?
57:50 K: Would you recommend fasting. I don't recommend anything.