Krishnamurti Subtitles

The art of listening

San Diego - 22 February 1974

Conversation with A.W. Anderson 10



0:38 Krishnamurti in Dialogue
with Dr. Allan W. Anderson
  
0:43 J. Krishnamurti was
born in South India
  
0:46 and educated in England.
 
0:48 For the past 40 years
 
0:49 he has been speaking
in the United States,
  
0:52 Europe, India, Australia,
and other parts of the world.
  
0:56 From the outset of his life's work
 
0:58 he repudiated all connections
 
1:00 with organised religions
and ideologies
  
1:02 and said that his only concern was
 
1:04 to set man absolutely
unconditionally free.
  
1:08 He is the author of many books,
 
1:11 among them The Awakening
of Intelligence,
  
1:13 The Urgency of Change,
Freedom From the Known,
  
1:17 and The Flight of the Eagle.
 
1:20 This is one of a series of dialogues
 
1:22 between Krishnamurti and
Dr. Allan W. Anderson,
  
1:25 who is professor of
religious studies
  
1:27 at San Diego State University
 
1:29 where he teaches Indian
and Chinese scriptures
  
1:32 and the oracular tradition.
 
1:34 Dr. Anderson, a published poet,
 
1:37 received his degree
from Columbia University
  
1:39 and the Union Theological Seminary.
 
1:42 He has been honoured with
the distinguished Teaching Award
  
1:45 from the California
State University.
  
1:49 A: Mr. Krishnamurti, last
time we were speaking together
  
1:53 we were going into beauty,
 
1:56 and just as we came
to the end of our conversation,
  
2:02 the question of seeing
 
2:04 and its relation
to the transformation of man,
  
2:09 which is not dependent
on knowledge or time,
  
2:13 was something
we promised ourselves we would
  
2:15 take up
next time we could come together.
  
2:23 K: Sir, what is seeing,
and what is listening,
  
2:30 and what is learning?
 
2:32 I think the three
are related to each other:
  
2:35 learning, hearing, and seeing.
 
2:42 What is seeing, perceiving?
 
2:49 Do we actually see,
 
2:53 or do we see through a screen,
darkly?
  
3:02 A screen of prejudice,
 
3:04 a screen of our
idiosyncrasies, experiences,
  
3:09 our wishes, pleasures, fears,
 
3:18 and obviously our images
 
3:21 about that which we see
and about ourselves.
  
3:26 We have this screen after screen
 
3:30 between us
and the object of perception.
  
3:37 So do we
ever see the thing at all?
  
3:45 Or is it: the seeing is coloured
by our knowledge
  
3:52 - botanical, experience,
and so on, so on, so on -
  
3:56 or our images,
which we have about that thing,
  
4:04 or the belief,
in which the mind is conditioned
  
4:11 and therefore prevents the seeing,
 
4:16 or the memories,
which the mind has cultivated,
  
4:24 prevent the seeing?
 
4:26 So seeing
may not take place at all.
  
4:37 And is it possible for the mind
not to have these images,
  
4:43 conclusions, beliefs,
memories, prejudices, fears,
  
4:48 and without having those screens
just to look?
  
4:57 I think this becomes
very important because
  
5:02 when there is a seeing
 
5:06 - of the thing
which I am talking about -
  
5:09 when there is a seeing,
you can't help but acting.
  
5:16 There is no question
of postponement.
  
5:20 A: Or succession. K: Succession.
A: Or interval.
  
5:24 K: Because
when action is based on
  
5:30 a belief, a conclusion, an idea,
 
5:34 then that action is time-binding.
 
5:40 And that action will inevitably
bring conflict, and so on,
  
5:47 regrets,
you know, all the rest of it.
  
5:49 So it becomes very important
to find out
  
5:52 what it is to see, to perceive,
 
5:56 what it is to hear.
Do I ever hear?
  
6:02 When one is married,
as a wife, or a husband,
  
6:07 or a girl, or a boy,
do I ever hear her or him?
  
6:12 Or I hear her or him
 
6:16 through the image
I have built about her or him?
  
6:21 Through the screen of irritations,
 
6:25 screen of annoyance,
domination, you know all that,
  
6:29 the dreadful things
that come in relationship.
  
6:36 So do I ever hear directly
what you say
  
6:43 without translating,
without transforming it,
  
6:47 without twisting it?
 
6:49 Do I ever hear a bird cry,
or a child weep,
  
6:57 or a man crying in pain?
 
7:02 You follow, sir?
Do I ever hear anything?
  
7:08 A: In a conversation we had
about a year ago
  
7:12 I was very struck by something
you said which I regard
  
7:21 for myself, personally,
immensely valuable.
  
7:24 You said that hearing was
doing nothing
  
7:29 to stop or interfere with seeing.
 
7:32 Hearing is doing nothing
to stop seeing.
  
7:40 That is very remarkable because
 
7:47 in conversation
the notion of hearing
  
7:54 is regarded as intimately associated
with command.
  
7:59 We will say, won't we,
'Now hear me, hear me out'.
  
8:05 And the person thinks
that they have to lean forward
  
8:12 in the sense of
do something voluntarily.
  
8:15 K: Quite, quite.
 
8:16 A: It's as though
they have to screw themselves up
  
8:19 into some sort of agonised twist
here,
  
8:23 not only to please
 
8:25 the one who is insisting
that they are not hearing,
  
8:27 but to get up
some hearing on their own.
  
8:30 K: Quite.
 
8:32 So does a human being,
Y or X, listen at all?
  
8:44 And what takes place
when I do listen?
  
8:49 Listen in the sense
without any interference,
  
8:55 without any interpretation,
conclusion,
  
9:02 like and dislike
- you know, all that takes place -
  
9:06 what happens
when I actually listen?
  
9:13 Sir, look, we said just now,
 
9:18 we cannot possibly
understand what beauty is,
  
9:22 if we don't understand
suffering, passion.
  
9:27 You hear that statement,
what does the mind do?
  
9:34 It draws a conclusion.
It has formed an idea,
  
9:39 verbal idea, hears the words,
 
9:42 draws a conclusion, and an idea.
 
9:46 A statement of that kind
has become an idea.
  
9:55 Then we say, 'How am I
to carry out that idea?'
  
10:03 And that becomes a problem.
 
10:07 A: Yes, of course it does.
 
10:09 Because the idea
doesn't conform to nature,
  
10:12 and other people
have other ideas,
  
10:14 and they want to get theirs
embodied.
  
10:16 Now we are up against a clash.
K: Yes.
  
10:19 So can I listen to that,
 
10:23 can the mind listen
to that statement
  
10:26 without forming an abstraction?
 
10:33 Just listen.
 
10:37 I neither agree nor disagree,
just actually listen,
  
10:42 completely,
to that statement.
  
10:49 A: If I am following you,
what you are saying is that,
  
10:56 were I to listen adequately,
 
11:04 - or just let's say listen,
 
11:06 because it's not a
question of more or less,
  
11:08 I am absolutely listening
or I am absolutely not listening.
  
11:13 K: That's right, sir.
A: Yes.
  
11:18 I would not have to contrive
an answer.
  
11:22 K: No. You are in it!
 
11:26 A: Yes.
 
11:27 So, like the cat, the action
and the seeing are one.
  
11:35 K: Yes.
 
11:36 A: They are one act.
K: That's right.
  
11:41 So can I listen to a statement
 
11:51 and see the truth of the statement,
 
11:56 or the falseness of the statement,
 
12:00 not in comparison,
 
12:06 but in the very statement
that you are making.
  
12:12 I don't know if I am
making myself clear.
  
12:14 A: Yes, you are making yourself
very clear.
  
12:17 K: That is,
I listen to the statement:
  
12:21 beauty can never exist
without passion
  
12:25 and passion comes from sorrow.
 
12:29 I listen to that statement.
 
12:32 I don't abstract an idea of it,
 
12:36 or make an idea from it.
 
12:39 I just listen.
 
12:42 What takes place?
 
12:47 You may be telling the truth,
 
12:49 or you may be making
a false statement.
  
12:53 I don't know,
 
12:56 because I am not going to compare.
A: No.
  
12:59 You are going to see.
K: I just listen.
  
13:03 Which means I am giving
my total attention
  
13:08 - just listen to this, sir,
 
13:10 you will see -
 
13:11 I give my total attention
to what you are saying.
  
13:19 Then it doesn't matter
what you say or don't say.
  
13:24 You see this thing?
A: Of course, of course.
  
13:28 K: What is important
is my act of listening!
  
13:39 And that act of listening
has brought about a miracle
  
13:45 of complete freedom
from all your statements
  
13:52 whether true, false, real,
 
13:56 my mind is completely attentive.
 
13:59 Attention means no border.
 
14:05 The moment I have a border
I begin to fight you,
  
14:10 agree, disagree.
 
14:11 The moment
attention has a frontier,
  
14:16 then concepts arise.
 
14:19 But if I listen to you
completely,
  
14:23 without a single interference
of thought, or ideation,
  
14:30 or mentation,
 
14:32 just listen to that,
 
14:35 the miracle has taken place.
 
14:38 Which is:
 
14:40 my total attention absolves
me, my mind,
  
14:47 from all the statements.
 
14:51 Therefore my mind
is extraordinarily free to act.
  
14:58 A: This has happened for me
 
15:01 on this series
of our conversations.
  
15:09 With each one of
these conversations,
  
15:11 since this is being video-taped,
 
15:16 one begins
when one is given the sign,
  
15:20 and we're told
when the time has elapsed,
  
15:28 and one ordinarily,
in terms of activity of this sort,
  
15:35 is thinking about the production
as such. K: Of course.
  
15:41 A: But one of the things
that I have learned is,
  
15:44 in our conversations,
 
15:51 I've been listening
very intensely,
  
15:54 and yet I've not had
to divide my mind.
  
16:02 K: No, sir, that's the...
A: And yet this is,
  
16:07 if I'm responding correctly
 
16:12 to what you have been teaching
 
16:15 - well, I know you don't
like that word -
  
16:17 but to what you have been saying,
 
16:19 - I understand why 'teaching'
was the wrong word here -
  
16:25 there is
that very first encounter
  
16:31 that the mind engages itself in.
K: Yes.
  
16:38 A: How can I afford
 
16:41 not to make the distinction
between
  
16:45 paying attention to the
aspects of the programme
  
16:49 on the production aspect of it,
 
16:51 and still engage our discussion?
 
16:56 K: Quite.
 
16:58 A: But the more intensely...
 
17:01 K: You can do it!
A: ...the discussion is engaged
  
17:04 the more efficiently all the
mechanism is accomplished.
  
17:13 We don't believe that,
in the sense that
  
17:15 not only to start with
we will not believe it,
  
17:18 but we won't even try it out.
 
17:22 There is no guarantee
from anybody in advance.
  
17:26 What we are told rather is this:
 
17:29 well, you get used to it.
 
17:31 And yet performers
have stage-fright all their lives,
  
17:36 so, clearly,
they don't get used to it.
  
17:38 K: No, sir, it is because,
sir, don't you think it is
  
17:41 our minds are so commercial;
 
17:45 unless I get a reward from it,
I won't do a thing.
  
17:52 And my mind lives in the
marketplace - one's mind:
  
17:59 I give you this, give me that.
 
18:04 A: And there's an interval
in between.
  
18:06 K: You follow?
A: Right.
  
18:07 K: We are so used
to commercialism,
  
18:12 both spiritually and physically,
 
18:15 that we don't do anything
without a reward,
  
18:21 without gaining something,
 
18:25 without a purpose.
 
18:31 It all must be exchange,
not a gift,
  
18:38 but exchange: I give you this
and you give me that.
  
18:42 I torture myself religiously
and God must come to me.
  
18:51 It's all a matter of...
commerce.
  
18:58 A: Fundamentalists have a phrase
that comes to mind
  
19:03 with respect to
their devotional life.
  
19:06 They say, 'I am claiming
the promises of God'.
  
19:11 And this phrase in the context
of what you are saying is...
  
19:18 my goodness, what that
couldn't lead to in the mind.
  
19:21 K: I know.
 
19:24 So you see, when one goes
very deeply into this,
  
19:31 when action is not based
on an idea, formula, belief,
  
19:36 then seeing is the doing.
 
19:40 Then what is seeing and hearing,
which we went into?
  
19:47 Then the seeing
is complete attention,
  
19:53 and the doing
is in that attention.
  
19:59 And the difficulty is
- people will ask,
  
20:02 'How will you maintain
that attention?'
  
20:05 A: Yes, and they haven't
even started.
  
20:08 K: No, how will you maintain it?
 
20:10 Which means
they are looking for a reward.
  
20:13 A: Exactly.
 
20:16 K: I'll practise it,
I will do everything
  
20:18 to maintain that attention
 
20:21 in order
to get something in return.
  
20:25 Attention is not a result,
attention has no cause.
  
20:33 What has cause has an effect,
 
20:36 and the effect
becomes the cause.
  
20:40 It's a circle.
But attention isn't that.
  
20:44 Attention
doesn't give you a reward.
  
20:50 Attention, on the contrary,
 
20:53 there is no reward or punishment
because it has no frontier.
  
21:01 A: Yes, this calls up an
earlier conversation we had,
  
21:03 when you mentioned the word
'virtue' and we explored it
  
21:07 in relation to power.
K: Yes, exactly, exactly.
  
21:09 A: And we are told
 
21:11 - what is difficult for a
thinking child to believe,
  
21:16 given the way a child is brought up,
 
21:19 but he's required somehow
to make his way through it -
  
21:25 that virtue is its own reward.
K: Oh, that.
  
21:28 A: And of course,
it is impossible to see
  
21:32 what is sound about that under...
K: Yes, quite.
  
21:36 A: ...the conditioned
situation in which he lives.
  
21:39 K: That's just an idea, sir.
 
21:41 A: So now we tuck that back
and then later,
  
21:44 when we need to remind somebody
 
21:47 that they are asking
too much of a reward
  
21:49 for something good that they did,
 
21:51 we tell them,
'Well, have you forgotten
  
21:53 that virtue is its own reward?'
 
21:56 Yes, yes.
 
21:58 It becomes a form of punishment.
 
22:02 K: Then, you see,
seeing and hearing.
  
22:08 Then what is learning?
 
22:13 Because
they are all interrelated:
  
22:15 learning, seeing, hearing,
 
22:19 and action - all that -
it is all in one movement,
  
22:22 they are not separate chapters,
it's one chapter.
  
22:27 A: Distinction is no division.
K: No.
  
22:31 So what is learning?
 
22:37 Is learning
a process of accumulation?
  
22:48 And is learning
non-accumulative?
  
22:53 We are putting both together.
 
22:55 Let's look at it.
A: Let's look at it, yes.
  
23:00 K: One learns a language
- Italian, French, whatever it is -
  
23:04 and accumulates words,
 
23:07 and the irregular verbs,
and so on,
  
23:10 and then one is able to speak.
 
23:11 There is learning a language
and being able to speak.
  
23:16 Learning how to ride a bicycle,
 
23:19 learning how to drive a car,
 
23:23 learning how to put
together a machine,
  
23:28 electronics, and so on, so on.
 
23:30 Those are all learning
 
23:32 to acquire knowledge in action.
 
23:39 And I am asking, is there
any other form of learning?
  
23:44 That we know,
we are familiar with the
  
23:47 acquisition of knowledge.
 
23:50 Now is there
any other kind of learning,
  
23:54 learning which is not:
accumulated and acting?
  
24:03 I don't know...
 
24:04 A: Yes,
when we have accumulated it all,
  
24:07 we haven't understood anything
on that account. K: Yes.
  
24:09 And I learn
in order to gain a reward
  
24:18 or in order to avoid punishment.
 
24:22 I learn a particular job,
or particular craft,
  
24:30 in order to earn a livelihood.
 
24:33 That is absolutely necessary,
otherwise...
  
24:38 Now I am asking, is there
any other kind of learning?
  
24:44 That is routine,
 
24:46 that is the cultivation of memory,
and the memory,
  
24:50 which is the result of
experience and knowledge
  
24:53 that is stored in the brain,
and that operates
  
24:58 when asked to ride a bicycle,
drive a car, and so on.
  
25:03 Now, is there any other kind
of learning?
  
25:07 Or only that?
 
25:13 When one says, 'I have
learned from my experience',
  
25:20 it means I have learned,
 
25:24 stored up from that experience
certain memories,
  
25:29 and those memories
 
25:32 either prevent, reward,
or punish.
  
25:43 So all such forms of learning are
mechanical.
  
25:53 And education
is to train the brain
  
26:01 to function in routine,
 
26:04 mechanically.
 
26:06 Because in that
there is great security.
  
26:14 Then it is safe.
 
26:22 And so,
our mind becomes mechanical.
  
26:29 My father did this,
I do this - you follow? -
  
26:31 the whole business
is mechanical.
  
26:34 Now, is there
a non-mechanical brain, at all?
  
26:41 A non-utilitarian
- in that sense - learning,
  
26:55 which has
neither future nor past,
  
26:58 therefore not time-binding.
 
27:01 I don't know if I am
making it clear.
  
27:03 A: Don't we sometimes say
 
27:06 'I have learned from experience'
 
27:09 when we wish to convey something
 
27:11 that isn't well conveyed
by that expression.
  
27:14 We wish to convey an insight
 
27:18 that we don't feel can be,
in a strict sense, dated.
  
27:24 K: You see, sir, do we learn
anything from experience?
  
27:31 We have had,
 
27:33 since history began, written history,
5000 wars.
  
27:40 I read it somewhere - 5000 wars.
 
27:44 Killing, killing, killing,
maiming.
  
27:46 And have we learned anything?
 
27:50 Have we learned anything
from sorrow?
  
27:54 Man has suffered.
 
27:56 Have we learned anything
from the experience of
  
28:01 the agony of uncertainty,
and all the rest of it?
  
28:06 So when we say we have learned,
I question it, you follow?
  
28:09 It seems such a terrible thing
to say 'I have learned
  
28:13 from experience'.
You have learned nothing!
  
28:16 Except
in the field of knowledge.
  
28:21 I don't know...
A: Yes.
  
28:23 May I say something here
that just passed in recall.
  
28:32 We were talking about sorrow
before,
  
28:36 and I was thinking of
a statement of St. Paul's
  
28:45 in his Letter to the Romans,
 
28:48 where there is a
very unusual sequence of words
  
28:53 where he says,
'We rejoice in tribulations'.
  
28:56 Now some people have thought
he must have been
  
28:58 a masochist in making
such a statement;
  
29:02 but that certainly seems
to me bizarre.
  
29:05 We rejoice in tribulations.
 
29:10 And then he says, 'because
tribulation works...'
  
29:14 - and in the Greek this means that
there is energy involved -
  
29:18 '...works patience'.
 
29:20 Patience - experience.
 
29:21 Now that's a very unusual order,
 
29:24 because we usually think that
 
29:26 if we have enough experience
we'll learn to be patient.
  
29:29 And he completely
stands that on its head, here.
  
29:32 And in the context
of what you are saying
  
29:38 that order of his words
makes eminent sense.
  
29:43 Please go on.
K: No, no.
  
29:46 A: Yes,
that's really very remarkable.
  
29:51 K: You see, sir, that's why
 
29:54 our education, our civilisation,
 
29:59 all the things about us,
 
30:02 has made our mind so mechanical
 
30:07 - repetitive reactions,
 
30:12 repetitive demands,
 
30:15 repetitive pursuits.
 
30:17 The same thing
being repeated year after year,
  
30:20 for thousands of years:
 
30:23 my country, your country,
I kill you and you kill me.
  
30:26 You follow, sir?
The whole thing is mechanical.
  
30:30 Now, that means
the mind can never be free.
  
30:41 Thought is never free,
thought is always old.
  
30:47 There's no new thought.
 
30:51 A: No. It is very curious
in relation to a movement
  
30:56 within the field of religion
 
30:58 which called itself
'New Thought'.
  
31:02 Yes, I was laughing
at the irony of it.
  
31:05 Yes, goodness me.
 
31:09 Some persons I imagine
would object to
  
31:13 the notion that we don't
learn from experience
  
31:16 in terms of
the succession of wars,
  
31:18 because wars
tend to happen sequentially,
  
31:23 generation to generation,
and you have to grow up.
  
31:25 But that is not true,
because more than one war
  
31:28 will happen very often
in the same generation...
  
31:31 K: What are they talking about?
Two wars.
  
31:34 A: Yes, there hasn't been
anything learned at all.
  
31:38 It's a terrifying thing
to hear someone
  
31:41 just come out and say:
 
31:45 nobody learns anything
from experience.
  
31:49 K: No, the word 'experience'
also means to go through.
  
31:52 A: Yes, yes.
 
31:53 K: But you never go through.
A: That's exactly right.
  
31:57 K: You always stop in the middle.
 
31:59 Or you never begin.
A: Right.
  
32:03 It means,
if I'm remembering correctly,
  
32:07 in terms of its radical root,
 
32:10 it means to test,
to put to test...
  
32:20 Well, to put a thing to the
test and behave correctly
  
32:23 while that's going on,
you certainly have to see,
  
32:25 you just have to look, don't you?
K: Of course.
  
32:29 So as our civilisation,
our culture,
  
32:35 our education has brought
about a mind
  
32:40 that is becoming more and more
mechanical,
  
32:46 and therefore time-binding,
 
32:49 and therefore
never a sense of freedom.
  
32:54 Freedom then becomes an idea,
 
32:56 you play around philosophically,
 
32:59 but it has no meaning.
 
33:00 But a man who says,
'Now, I want to find out,
  
33:05 I want to really go into this
 
33:07 and discover
if there is freedom'.
  
33:10 Then he has to understand
the limits
  
33:16 of knowledge,
where knowledge ends,
  
33:23 or rather
the ending of knowledge
  
33:25 and the beginning of something
totally new.
  
33:30 I don't know if I am
conveying anything.
  
33:32 A: You are. Oh yes, yes.
 
33:34 K: That is, sir,
what is learning?
  
33:37 If it is not mechanical,
then what is learning?
  
33:45 Is there a learning at all,
learning about what?
  
33:53 I learn how to go to the moon,
 
33:57 how to put up this, that,
and drive, and so on.
  
34:00 In that field only
there is learning.
  
34:04 Is there a learning
in any other field,
  
34:06 psychologically, spiritually?
 
34:14 Can the mind learn
about what they call God?
  
34:21 A: If in learning,
 
34:23 in the sense that you
have asked this question...
  
34:26 - no, I must rephrase that.
Stop this 'ifing' -
  
34:30 When one does
what I am about to say,
  
34:34 when one learns about God,
or going to the moon,
  
34:39 in terms of the question
you have asked,
  
34:44 he can't be doing
what you are pointing to,
  
34:48 if this is
something added on to the list.
  
34:52 K: Sir, it is so clear.
A: Yes, it is.
  
34:56 K: I learn a language,
ride a bicycle, drive a car,
  
34:59 put a machine together.
That's essential.
  
35:01 Now I want to learn about God
- just listen to this.
  
35:07 The god is my making.
 
35:11 God hasn't made me in his image.
 
35:18 I have made him in my image.
 
35:21 Now
I am going to learn about him.
  
35:26 A: Yes,
I am going to talk to myself.
  
35:28 K: Learn about
the image which I have built
  
35:32 about Christ, Buddha,
whatever it is.
  
35:35 The image I have built.
 
35:38 So I am learning what?
A: To talk about talk. Yes.
  
35:43 K: Learning about the image
which I have built.
  
35:47 A: That's right.
 
35:48 K: Therefore is there
any other kind of learning
  
35:51 except mechanical learning?
 
35:54 I don't know if I..
 
35:58 You understand my question?
A: Yes, I do.
  
36:00 Yes, I do, I certainly do.
 
36:05 K: So, there is only learning
 
36:10 the mechanical process of life.
 
36:16 There is no other learning.
See what that means, sir.
  
36:26 A: It means freedom.
K: I can learn about myself.
  
36:31 Myself is known.
 
36:37 Known, in the sense
- I may not know it,
  
36:39 but I can know, by looking at myself,
I can know myself.
  
36:46 So, myself is
the accumulated knowledge of the past.
  
36:54 The 'me' who says:
I am greedy, I am envious,
  
36:57 I am successful, I am frightened,
 
37:00 I have betrayed, I have regret
 
37:02 - all that is the 'me',
 
37:05 including the soul,
which I have invented in the 'me',
  
37:09 or the Brahman, the Atman
- it's all 'me', still.
  
37:15 The 'me' has created
the image of God,
  
37:18 and
I am going to learn about God,
  
37:20 which has no meaning!
 
37:23 So if there is - when there is,
 
37:28 no,
I am going to use the word 'if' -
  
37:30 if there is no other learning,
what takes place?
  
37:36 You understand?
 
37:40 The mind is used in the
acquisition of knowledge in matter
  
37:46 - to put it differently.
 
37:48 In mechanical things.
 
37:54 And when the mind
is employed there,
  
37:59 are there any other processes
of learning?
  
38:06 Which means:
psychologically, inwardly, is there?
  
38:11 The inward
is the invention of thought
  
38:15 as opposed to the outer.
 
38:17 I don't know if you see.
 
38:21 If I have understood the outer,
 
38:22 I have understood the inner.
 
38:25 Because the inner
has created the outer.
  
38:30 The outer in the sense
the structure of society,
  
38:33 the religious sanctions,
all that is invented
  
38:37 or put together by thought:
 
38:41 the Jesuses, the Christ,
the Buddhas - all that.
  
38:48 And what is there to learn?
 
38:53 A: In listening to you...
 
38:55 K: See
the beauty of what is coming out?
  
38:57 A: Oh yes, yes,
 
39:00 it goes back to your remark
about vedanta
  
39:05 as the end of knowledge.
 
39:09 K: That's what I was told.
 
39:11 A: Yes.
 
39:12 The interesting thing to me
about the
  
39:15 Sanskrit construction is that,
 
39:18 unless I am mistaken,
 
39:20 it doesn't mean
the end of it as a terminus,
  
39:23 as a term, because that would
simply start a new series.
  
39:27 It is the consummation of it,
which is the total end,
  
39:33 in the sense that
 
39:36 a totally new beginning
is made at that very point.
  
39:40 K: That means, sir, I know,
 
39:43 the mind knows
the activity of the known.
  
39:48 A: That's right, yes.
 
39:50 That's the consummation
of knowledge.
  
39:53 K: Of knowledge.
 
39:54 Now
what is the state of the mind,
  
39:58 that is free from that
and yet functions in knowledge?
  
40:03 A: And yet functions in it.
 
40:05 K: You follow?
A: Yes, yes.
  
40:07 It is seeing perfectly.
 
40:12 K: Do go into it,
 
40:13 you will see
very strange things take place.
  
40:18 Is this possible, first?
 
40:22 You understand, sir?
 
40:24 Because the brain
functions mechanically,
  
40:31 it wants security,
 
40:34 otherwise it can't function.
 
40:36 If we hadn't security,
 
40:39 we wouldn't be here
sitting together.
  
40:42 Because we have security,
we can have a dialogue.
  
40:49 The brain can only function
in complete security.
  
40:54 Whether that security it finds
in a neurotic belief
  
41:01 - all beliefs and all ideas
are neurotic in that sense -
  
41:05 so it finds it somewhere:
 
41:08 in accepting nationality
as the highest form of good,
  
41:14 success is the highest virtue.
 
41:18 It finds belief, security there.
 
41:21 Now, you are asking the brain,
 
41:28 which has become mechanical,
 
41:31 trained for centuries,
 
41:36 to see the other field,
which is not mechanical.
  
41:42 Is there another field?
 
41:48 A: No.
 
41:49 K: You follow the question?
A: Yes, I do.
  
41:52 Yes, that's
what's so utterly devastating.
  
41:56 K: Is there - wait, wait -
is there another field?
  
42:01 Now,
unless the brain and the mind
  
42:06 understands the whole field
- not field -
  
42:10 understands
the movement of knowledge,
  
42:13 it is a movement.
A: It is a movement, yes.
  
42:15 K: It is not just static,
 
42:17 you are adding, taking away,
and so on.
  
42:20 Unless it understands all that,
 
42:23 it cannot possibly ask
that other question.
  
42:26 A: Exactly. Exactly.
 
42:28 K: And when it does ask that question,
what takes place?
  
42:40 Sir, this is real meditation,
you know.
  
42:42 A: This is, yes, yes.
 
42:44 K: Which we will go into another time.
 
42:46 So you see,
that's what it means.
  
42:51 One is always
listening with knowledge,
  
42:59 seeing with knowledge.
 
43:04 A: This is the seeing through
a glass darkly. K: Darkly.
  
43:08 Now is there a listening
out of silence?
  
43:17 And that is attention.
 
43:23 And that is not time-binding,
 
43:26 because in that silence
I don't want anything.
  
43:31 It isn't that I am going
to learn about myself.
  
43:33 It isn't that I am going
to be punished, rewarded.
  
43:37 In that absolute silence
I listen.
  
43:44 A: The wonder of the
whole thing is that
  
43:46 it isn't something that is done,
 
43:52 this meditation, in succession.
 
43:55 K: Sir, when we talk
about meditation,
  
43:57 we will have to go
very deeply into that,
  
43:58 because
they have destroyed that word!
  
44:01 These shoddy little men
coming from India or anywhere,
  
44:05 they have destroyed that thing.
 
44:10 A: I heard the other day
about someone who was
  
44:14 learning transcendental meditation.
 
44:16 K: Oh, learning!
 
44:20 A: They had to do it
at 3 o'clock in the afternoon.
  
44:24 K: Pay 35 dollars or 100 dollars
to learn that.
  
44:27 It's so sacrilegious.
 
44:33 A: That is, at 3 o'clock in the
afternoon was judgement day.
  
44:39 If you didn't do it
according to your schedule,
  
44:43 then the world has
obviously come to an end.
  
44:46 But ostensibly you are doing it
to get free of that.
  
44:50 Do go ahead.
 
44:52 K: So you see, sir,
that's what takes place.
  
44:56 We began this morning
about beauty,
  
45:00 then passion, then suffering,
then action.
  
45:06 Action based on idea is inaction.
 
45:11 It sounds monstrous,
but there it is.
  
45:15 And from that we said:
what is seeing
  
45:18 and what is hearing?
 
45:22 The seeing and the listening
has become mechanical.
  
45:30 We never see anything new.
 
45:33 Even the flower is never new,
 
45:36 which has blossomed over night.
 
45:39 We say, 'Yes, that's the
rose, I have been expecting it,
  
45:42 it has come out now, how beautiful'.
 
45:46 It's always
from the known to the known.
  
45:52 A movement in time,
and therefore time-binding,
  
45:56 and therefore never free.
 
46:00 And yet we are
talking about freedom,
  
46:02 you know, philosophy,
 
46:05 the lectures on freedom,
and so on, so on.
  
46:09 And the communists call it
a bourgeois thing, which it is,
  
46:13 in the sense,
when you limit it to knowledge,
  
46:17 it is foolish
to talk about freedom.
  
46:22 But there is a freedom
when you understand
  
46:27 the whole movement of knowledge.
 
46:31 So
can you observe out of silence,
  
46:40 and observe and act
in the field of knowledge,
  
46:45 so both together in harmony?
 
46:51 A: Seeing then is not scheduled.
 
46:56 Yes, of course, of course.
 
47:13 I was just thinking about,
 
47:16 I suppose, you would say
the classical definition
  
47:19 of freedom, in terms of
the career of knowledge,
  
47:23 would be that it is
 
47:26 a property of action,
a property or quality of action.
  
47:31 For general uses
either word would do,
  
47:35 property or quality.
 
47:38 And it occurred to me,
 
47:41 in the context of what
we have been saying,
  
47:46 what a horror that one
could read that statement
  
47:52 and not let it disclose itself
to you.
  
47:58 K: Quite.
A: If it disclosed itself to you,
  
48:01 you would be up against it,
you'd have to be serious.
  
48:07 If you were a philosophy
student and you read that,
  
48:10 and that thing began
to operate in you,
  
48:13 you'd say, 'I've got to get
this settled before I go on.
  
48:18 Maybe I'll never graduate,
that's not important'.
  
48:20 K: That's not important,
quite right.
  
48:22 And I was thinking,
 
48:25 in the West
as well as in the East,
  
48:27 you have to go to the factory,
or the office,
  
48:31 every day of your life.
 
48:36 Get up at 8 o'clock, 6 o'clock,
drive, walk,
  
48:42 work, work, work, for fifty years,
routine,
  
48:49 and get kicked about, insulted,
 
48:53 worship success.
Again - repetition.
  
48:58 And occasionally talk about God,
if it is convenient,
  
49:01 and so on, so on.
 
49:03 That is a monstrous life!
 
49:10 And that is what
we are educating our children for.
  
49:15 A: That's the real living death.
 
49:20 K: And nobody says,
 
49:21 for God's sake,
let's look at all this anew.
  
49:27 Let's wipe our eyes
clear of the past
  
49:30 and look at what we are doing,
 
49:32 give attention,
care what we are doing.
  
49:37 A: Now
we have this question instead:
  
49:39 what shall we do about it?
 
49:41 Yes, that's the question.
 
49:42 And then that becomes
 
49:45 the next thing done that is...
 
49:47 ...added to the list.
K: It is a continuity of the past,
  
49:48 in a different form.
A: And the chain is endlessly
  
49:52 linked, linked, linked, linked.
 
49:54 K: The cause becoming the effect
 
49:55 and the effect becoming the cause.
 
49:58 So it's a very serious thing
when we talk about all this,
  
50:03 because life becomes
dreadfully serious.
  
50:08 And it's only this serious person
that lives,
  
50:12 not those people
who seek entertainment,
  
50:16 religious or otherwise.
 
50:20 A: I had a very interesting
 
50:22 occasion to understand
what you are saying
  
50:25 in class yesterday.
 
50:29 I was trying to assist
the students to see that
  
50:36 the classical understanding
of the four causes
  
50:38 in operation is that they
are non-temporarily related.
  
50:44 And I said, when the potter
puts his hand to the clay,
  
50:49 the hand touching the clay
 
50:53 is not responded to by the clay
 
50:55 after the hand has touched it.
 
50:58 And one person,
who was visiting the class,
  
51:07 this person
was a well-educated person
  
51:15 and a professor,
 
51:20 and this struck him
as maybe not so,
  
51:25 and I could tell by the
expression on the face
  
51:28 that there was a little
anguish here, so I said,
  
51:32 'Well, my radar says
 
51:34 that there is some difficulty
going on,
  
51:36 what's the matter?'
 
51:38 'Well, it seems like
there is a time interval'.
  
51:42 So I asked him to pick something up
that was on the desk.
  
51:46 And I said, 'Touch it
with your finger
  
51:48 and tell me, at the
moment of the touching
  
51:51 with the finger, whether
 
51:54 the thing reacts to the
finger after it is touched.
  
52:00 Now do it'.
 
52:02 Well, even to ask somebody
 
52:05 to apply a practical test
like that
  
52:07 with respect to
a datum of knowledge
  
52:10 like the four causes are...
la,la,la,
  
52:12 is to interrupt the process of
education as we have known it.
  
52:18 Because you teach a student
about the four causes
  
52:20 and he thinks about them,
 
52:22 he never goes out
and looks at things,
  
52:24 or does anything about it.
 
52:26 And so we were picking
stuff up in class,
  
52:30 and we were doing this
 
52:32 until finally it seemed
like a revelation.
  
52:39 'Watch' has been said
- in the classical teaching of it,
  
52:43 which, of course, in
modern society is rejected -
  
52:48 happens to be the case.
 
52:50 And I said,
this has to be seen, watched.
  
52:55 This is what you mean.
K: Yes, sir.
  
52:58 Seeing, of course.
A: Of course, of course.
  
53:03 But we are back to that step
there:
  
53:09 why was that person
 
53:11 and so many other students
following suit,
  
53:15 anguished at the point where
 
53:19 the practical issue arose?
 
53:24 There was a feeling, I suppose,
that they were on a cliff.
  
53:33 K: Quite, quite.
 
53:35 A: And naturally alertness
was required.
  
53:42 But alertness registers
that we are on a cliff,
  
53:47 so therefore
the best thing to do is
  
53:49 to turn around and run back.
 
53:52 Yes, yes.
 
53:58 K: Sir, I think, you see,
 
54:01 we are so caught up in words.
 
54:07 To us
 
54:09 the word is not the thing.
 
54:14 The description
is not the described.
  
54:18 To us the description
is all that matters,
  
54:23 because we are slave to words.
 
54:26 A: And to ritual.
 
54:28 K: Ritual and all the rest of it.
So when you say, look,
  
54:32 the thing matters more than
the word,
  
54:37 and then they say,
'How am I to get rid of the word,
  
54:43 how am I to communicate,
if I have no word?'
  
54:46 You see how they have gone off?
 
54:47 They are not concerned with
the thing, but with the word.
  
54:52 A: Yes.
 
54:53 K: And the door is not the word.
 
55:00 So
when we are caught up in words,
  
55:04 the word 'door'
becomes extraordinarily important,
  
55:10 and not the door.
 
55:13 A: And I don't really need to
come to terms with the door,
  
55:17 I say to myself,
because I have the word.
  
55:21 I have it all.
 
55:23 K: So education has done this.
 
55:30 A great part of this education
is the acceptance of words
  
55:37 as an abstraction from the fact,
from the 'what is'.
  
55:43 All philosophies are based on that:
 
55:48 theorise, theorise, theorise,
endlessly,
  
55:51 how one should live.
 
55:52 And the philosopher himself
doesn't live.
  
55:57 A: Yes, I know.
K: You see this all over.
  
56:00 A: Especially some philosophers
that have seemed to me
  
56:03 quite bizarre in this respect.
 
56:06 I have asked my colleagues
from time to time,
  
56:09 'If you believe that stuff,
why don't you do it?'
  
56:15 And they look at me as
though I am out of my mind,
  
56:17 as though nobody would really
seriously ask that question.
  
56:21 K: Quite, quite. A: But if you
can't ask that question,
  
56:24 what question is worth asking?
K: Quite right.
  
56:28 A: I was thinking about that
marvellous story you told
  
56:33 in our previous conversation
about the monkey,
  
56:36 while
you were speaking about this,
  
56:41 when she shook hands with you,
 
56:44 nobody had told her
how to shake hands.
  
56:48 K: No, it stretched out.
A: Yes.
  
56:51 K: And I took it.
 
56:53 A: It wasn't something that
she was taught how to do
  
56:56 through a verbal communication,
it was the appropriate
  
56:59 thing at the time.
K: At the time, yes.
  
57:02 A: Without anyone measuring
its appropriateness.
  
57:05 K: Quite.
 
57:07 A: Isn't that something?
 
57:10 Yes, I can't tell you
how grateful I am to have
  
57:24 been able
to share this with you.
  
57:27 I have seen, in respect to
my own activity as a teacher,
  
57:37 where I must perform therapy
even on my language.
  
57:45 K: Quite, quite.
 
57:46 A: So that I don't give the student
an occasion for thinking
  
57:52 that I am simply adding
to this endless chain,
  
57:57 link after link after link.
 
58:02 There are two therapies here then:
that's the therapy that
  
58:07 relates to words
and that flows out naturally.
  
58:13 It is not a contrivance,
it flows out naturally,
  
58:17 if I've understood you correctly,
from the therapy within.
  
58:25 Now this relates directly,
as you were saying earlier,
  
58:29 to meditation.
Are we ready, do you think...
  
58:32 K: I think that's too complicated.
A: I don't mean right now.
  
58:35 But maybe in one of
our next conversations.
  
58:39 K: Oh yes, we must discuss
several things yet, sir. A: Yes.
  
58:42 K: What is love, what is death,
what is meditation,
  
58:45 what is
the whole movement of living.
  
58:48 We've got a great deal to do.
 
58:49 A: Oh, I do look forward to
that very much. Splendid. Right.