Krishnamurti_EN

Krishnamurti Subtitles

A different way of living

San Diego - 26 February 1974

Conversation with A.W. Anderson 13

0:38	Krishnamurti in Dialogue
	with Dr. Allan W. Anderson

0:43	J. Krishnamurti was
	born in South India

0:46	and educated in England.

0:48	For the past 40 years

0:49	he has been speaking
	in the United States,

0:52	Europe, India, Australia,
	and other parts of the world.

0:56	From the outset of his life's work

0:58	he repudiated all connections

1:00	with organised
	religions and ideologies

1:02	and said that his only concern was

1:04	to set man absolutely
	unconditionally free.

1:08	He is the author of many books,

1:11	among them The Awakening
	of Intelligence,

1:13	The Urgency of Change,
	Freedom From the Known,

1:17	and The Flight of the Eagle.

1:20	This is one of a series
	of dialogues between

1:23	Krishnamurti and Dr.
	Allan W. Anderson,

1:25	who is professor
	of religious studies

1:27	at San Diego State University

1:29	where he teaches Indian
	and Chinese scriptures

1:32	and the oracular tradition.

1:34	Dr. Anderson, a published poet,

1:37	received his degree
	from Columbia University

1:39	and the Union Theological Seminary.

1:42	He has been honoured with the
	distinguished Teaching Award

1:45	from the California
	State University.

1:51	A: Mr. Krishnamurti, at the
	end of our last conversation,

1:54	if I remember correctly,
	we were looking into the

1:59	relationships among
	living, and love, and death.

2:06	That is we had just begun to

2:09	when we had to bring
	our discussion to an end.

2:14	I was hoping today
	that we might pursue this

2:17	in terms of
	our continuing concern

2:20	for the transformation of man.

2:26	K: As usual, sir,

2:28	this is such a complex question,
	this living,

2:35	what it means
	and what it actually is,

2:42	and love, which we talked about

2:45	the other day fairly in detail
	and rather closely,

2:53	and also this enormous problem
	of death.

3:03	Every religion has offered
	a comforting belief,

3:11	comforting ideas,

3:14	hoping there would be
	a solution for the fear,

3:19	sorrow, and all the things
	that are involved in it.

3:23	So I think,
	perhaps we should begin

3:27	with what is living

3:29	and then go from there
	to love and death. A: Good.

3:38	K: Shouldn't we

3:43	actually look at
	what we call living now,

3:47	what is taking place.
	A: Yes.

3:51	K: What actually is going on,

3:53	which we call existence, living,

3:57	those two words to cover

4:00	this whole field
	of man's endeavour

4:06	to better himself,

4:11	not only
	in the technological world,

4:16	but also psychologically,
	he wants to be different,

4:21	he wants to be
	more than what he is, and so on.

4:27	So when we look at it

4:29	in whatever country,
	and whatever race,

4:32	or whatever religion
	they belong to,

4:36	it is a matter of
	constant struggle

4:42	from the moment you are born

4:45	to the moment you die,
	it is one battle.

4:49	Not only in relationship
	with other human beings,

4:53	- intimate or not intimate -

4:56	but also economically,
	socially, morally,

5:00	it is a vast battle.

5:05	I think everyone agrees to that.
	And that's obvious.

5:09	The conflict, the struggle,
	the suffering, the pain,

5:14	the frustrations, the agony,
	the despairs,

5:18	the violence, the brutality,

5:21	killing each other - all that
	is what is actually going on.

5:28	Spending 40, 50 years
	in an office, in a factory,

5:35	occasional holidays for a month,

5:39	and a wild kind of holidays,
	because

5:43	the holidays are a reaction
	to their monotonous life.

5:48	A: Time out. K: Time out,
	or whatever it is called.

5:51	You see them all over Europe,

5:54	America, going from
	museum to museum,

5:58	looking at this, that,
	rushing about,

6:01	and that is an escape

6:04	from the monotony of
	their daily routine.

6:09	And they go off to India,
	and there are, I believe,

6:14	about 15,000 so-called hippies

6:19	in various dresses,
	and various monasteries,

6:24	and various cities,

6:26	doing the most fantastic things,

6:29	selling drugs - some of them -

6:32	and putting on Indian clothes,

6:34	dressing up as monks,
	and all that.

6:38	It is a kind of vast
	romantic sentimental escape

6:43	from their daily
	monotonous routine life.

6:49	That is what we call living:

6:54	the battle in relationship,
	the battle in business,

6:59	in economic environment.
	It is a constant struggle.

7:08	A: What you've said

7:11	seems to be ingrained into
	the grasp of this living itself.

7:19	We have a saying:
	life is a battle.

7:23	We interpret it in terms
	of what you have said.

7:27	K: And nobody seems to say,
	why should it be that way?

7:35	And we have all accepted it.

7:38	We say, yes,
	it is part of our existence.

7:42	If we don't struggle,
	we are destroyed.

7:45	It is a part of our
	natural inheritance.

7:49	From the animal,
	we see how it struggles,

7:53	so we are part of the animal,
	part of the ape,

7:56	and we must go on struggling,
	struggling, struggling.

7:59	We have never said,
	is this right?

8:05	Is this the way to live?

8:11	Is this the way to behave,

8:13	to appreciate
	the beauty of living?

8:21	A: The usual question turns on

8:23	how to engage the battle
	more effectively.

8:26	K: Effectively, successfully,
	with least harm,

8:30	with least strain,
	with least heart failure, and so on.

8:36	But the ground
	is prepared for struggle.

8:43	The monks do it
	- you follow, sir? -

8:46	the religious people do it,

8:48	the business, the artist,
	the painter, every human being,

8:56	however compartmentalised
	he is, he is in battle.

9:02	And that we call living.

9:08	And a man looks at it
	- an intelligent man, he says,

9:10	for God's sake,
	that's not the way to live.

9:13	Let's find out if there is
	a different way of living.

9:18	And nobody asks.

9:22	I have talked to

9:24	a great many politicians
	all over the world,

9:28	and to a great many gurus.

9:36	We will come to that,
	it's very interesting that word,

9:38	what it means.
	We'll go into that.

9:42	And I've talked to artists,
	to businessmen, to artisans,

9:47	to labourers,
	very, very poor people:

9:51	it is one constant battle.

9:57	The rich, the poor,
	the middle class,

10:00	the scientist
	- you follow, sir?

10:03	A: Oh yes, I'm following.

10:04	K: And nobody says:
	this is wrong!

10:11	This isn't living,

10:13	It's bleeding!

10:15	A: I was thinking about
	the literatures of the world

10:20	of a visionary nature
	that tend to be divided

10:23	into three basic statements

10:28	in terms of
	their form and content.

10:32	On the one hand, we have
	epics that deal precisely

10:37	with the representation
	of the battle of life.

10:42	K: We have got the Odyssey,
	we have got the Mahabharata,

10:45	we have got so many other
	books, all praising this thing.

10:50	A: And then others deal with

10:51	what we call
	the journey of life,

10:53	the Odyssey would be
	specifically related to that;

10:56	there are many battles
	concerned within it

10:59	in terms of confrontations
	between individuals.

11:03	And then there's the notion
	of life as a fulfilment.

11:08	But we hardly ever get to the
	question of the fulfilment.

11:15	And when these are studied,

11:17	they are studied
	in terms of a literary form,

11:21	and the question
	that you've raised,

11:24	- which, it seems to me,
	would be a question that

11:27	should be presented to
	the student in general...

11:30	K: And
	it is an authentic question,

11:32	it's a question
	that must be put.

11:38	A: I was reflecting
	as you were speaking

11:40	that in the class room itself

11:43	it's taken for granted
	that this battle is what it is.

11:48	It is to be related to
	with fortitude, and so forth,

11:52	but the question
	concerning it doesn't arise.

11:55	K: No, to some young
	people it has arisen,

12:00	but they go off at a tangent.

12:02	A: Exactly.
	K: Either a commune,

12:05	or become a Hindu
	- you follow? -

12:10	go off to some ancient country
	and just disintegrate,

12:16	do nothing, think nothing,
	just live.

12:19	A: Which is really
	a lateral movement.

12:21	K: Lateral. A: Not a vertical one.
	K: That's right.

12:24	A: Into the question. Yes.

12:25	K: So it is a valid question,

12:32	and it must have a valid answer,

12:35	not theoretical, but say,
	well, I will live that way.

12:40	I will live without conflict.
	See what it means.

12:45	I may be smothered.

12:47	I question whether
	you will be wiped out by society,

12:52	if you don't struggle.

12:55	I've never struggled personally.

12:57	I have never thought
	of battling with myself

13:00	or with somebody else.

13:04	So, I think,
	a question of that kind

13:09	must not only be put verbally,

13:12	but
	in the expression of that word

13:16	one must see if it is possible

13:18	for each one of us
	to live that way,

13:21	to live
	without a single conflict.

13:26	That means without division.

13:30	Conflict means division.

13:32	Conflict means
	the battle of the opposites.

13:37	Conflict means you and me,
	we and they,

13:42	Americans, Russians, you know,

13:44	division, division, division.

13:46	Fragmentation not only inwardly,
	but outwardly.

13:52	Where there is fragmentation
	there must be battle.

13:57	One fragment assuming the power

14:00	and dominating
	the other fragments.

14:04	So, an intelligent man
	- if there is such a person -

14:15	has to find out a way of living

14:19	which is not going to sleep,

14:23	which is not just vegetating,

14:27	which is not just
	escaping to some fanciful

14:31	mystical visions,
	and all that stuff,

14:35	but a way of living
	in daily life,

14:40	in which conflict of any kind
	has come to an end.

14:47	It is possible.

14:53	I have watched it
	all around me,

14:56	for the last 50 years,
	the battle going on around me,

15:02	spiritually, economically,
	socially,

15:06	one class
	battling the other class,

15:09	and the dictatorships,

15:11	the fascists,
	the communists, the Nazis

15:15	- you follow, sir?
	A: Yes, I do.

15:16	K: All of them
	have their roots in this:

15:24	encouraging obedience,
	discouraging obedience,

15:30	imitating, conforming,
	obeying - all battle.

15:38	So life has become a battle.

15:41	And to me personally,

15:45	to live that way
	is the most destructive,

15:48	uncreative way of living.

15:52	I won't live that way.
	I would rather disappear!

15:59	A: I think, perhaps - and I wonder
	if you would agree -

16:04	that some sort of confusion
	has arisen here in our minds,

16:12	when we identify
	ourselves with this battle

16:16	in terms of your description of it.

16:19	When we begin to think
	about the question:

16:23	'ought this to continue',

16:26	and we have
	the image of battle before us,

16:32	we tend to

16:35	imagine to ourselves that
	what we're really talking about

16:38	is the human equivalent
	of what is called

16:42	'nature red in tooth and claw'.

16:45	K: Quite.

16:46	A: But, if I am
	following you correctly,

16:48	this is a cardinal mistake,

16:50	because in our previous
	conversations you have,

16:55	at least for me,
	very clearly indicated that

17:00	we must distinguish
	between fear and danger;

17:04	and the animals,
	in their own environment,

17:09	act with clean and
	immediate dispatch

17:14	in the presence of danger,
	whereas

17:18	it seems we are making a mistake,

17:20	if we attempt to study
	what we call human conflict

17:25	on the level of this analogy,
	because analogy,

17:29	if I have understood you correctly,
	simply doesn't apply.

17:32	K: Doesn't, no.

17:33	A: But don't you agree
	that this tends to be done?

17:36	K: Oh rather, sir.

17:37	We study the animal,
	or the birds,

17:40	in order to understand man.
	A: Right.

17:43	K: Whereas you can study man,
	which is yourself.

17:47	You don't have to go to
	the animal to know man.

17:51	So, that is, sir, really
	a very important question,

17:56	because I have,

18:01	if I may
	talk a little about myself,

18:03	I've watched it all.
	A: Please do.

18:05	K: I've watched it in India.

18:07	The sannyasis, the monks,
	the gurus, the disciples,

18:11	the politicians
	all over the world.

18:15	I've happened to have,
	somehow I have met them all

18:18	- the writers,
	the famous people,

18:21	the painters
	who are very well-known,

18:25	most of them
	have come to see me.

18:28	And it is
	a sense of deep anxiety,

18:36	that if they don't struggle
	they will be nothing.

18:41	They will be failures,

18:47	that is, that way of living

18:50	is the only and
	righteous way of living.

18:55	A: To drive oneself to be
	what is called productive.

18:58	K: Productive, progressive.
	A: Progressive.

19:01	K: And we are taught
	this from childhood.

19:05	A: Oh yes.
	K: Our education is that.

19:09	To battle not only with yourself
	- with your neighbour,

19:14	and yet love the neighbour,
	you follow?

19:17	It becomes too ridiculous.

19:19	So, having stated that,

19:23	is there a way of living
	without conflict?

19:31	I say, there is, obviously.

19:37	Which is
	to understand the division,

19:41	to understand the conflict,

19:43	to see how fragmented we are,

19:46	not try to integrate the fragments,
	which is impossible,

19:51	but out of that perception

19:56	the action is entirely
	different from integration.

20:04	Seeing the fragmentations
	which bring about conflict,

20:09	which bring about division,

20:10	which bring about
	this constant battle,

20:14	anxiety, strain, heart failure.

20:17	You follow, sir?
	That is what is happening.

20:19	To see it,

20:22	to perceive it, and that very
	perception brings an action,

20:26	which is totally different
	from the action of conflict.

20:33	Because the action of conflict
	has its own energy,

20:38	brings its own energy,
	which is divisive,

20:43	which is destructive, violent.

20:46	But the energy

20:48	of perception and acting
	is entirely different.

20:53	And that energy
	is the energy of creation.

20:59	Anything that is created
	cannot be in conflict.

21:07	An artist who is in
	conflict with his colours,

21:11	he is not
	a creative human being.

21:13	He may have perfect craft,
	perfect technique,

21:17	a gift for painting, but that's...

21:21	A: It interests me very much

21:22	that you've used
	the word 'energy' here

21:25	in relation to both activities.
	K: Both activities, yes.

21:30	A: You haven't said that the energy
	at root is different. K: No, no.

21:36	A: The phenomenon is different.
	K: Yes.

21:39	A: It would appear that

21:45	when one makes success,
	prosperity, victory,

21:50	the object of his activity,
	and engages this conflict,

21:56	- which he interprets
	as engaging him,

22:00	he always tends to think
	that 'things are coming at me'.

22:06	When he undertakes this,

22:07	if I have understood you correctly,

22:09	energy is released,

22:13	but it is released
	in fragmentary patterns.

22:18	K: The other way, yes.
	A: Yes.

22:20	Whereas the energy
	that's released with perception

22:24	is the same energy,

22:26	is always whole.
	K: Is whole. Yes, sir, that's right.

22:30	A: Isn't that what you are...
	K: Yes, sir. That's right.

22:32	Therefore sane,
	therefore healthy,

22:34	therefore holy - h,o,l,y.
	A: Yes.

22:38	I have the feeling that

22:45	this release of energy
	which shatters out into

22:52	patterns of energy
	as fragmentation,

22:56	is really what we mean
	by the word 'demonic'.

22:59	K: Demonic, that's right.

23:01	A: That's giving it a hard name.
	K: But it is a good name.

23:04	It's an excellent name.
	A: But you are really...

23:06	...saying this, aren't you?
	I am saying this.

23:08	K: But I agree,
	I totally see that with you.

23:11	I see it is demonic.

23:14	It is the very destructive thing.

23:18	A: Exactly.

23:20	K: And that's what our society is,
	our culture is.

23:27	A: What we've done
	to that word 'demonic'!

23:31	I was just thinking
	about Socrates, who

23:34	refers to his 'daimon'

23:37	meaning the energy
	that operates in wholeness.

23:43	K: That's right, sir.

23:44	A: And we have taken
	that word from the Greek

23:47	clear out of the
	context of the apology

23:49	and turned it upside down,
	and now it means...

23:54	K: The devil.
	A: Right.

23:56	And the same thing happened

23:58	with the use of the word
	'the asuras'.

24:06	Originally in the Veda,

24:10	this was not a
	reference to the demonic,

24:12	there was no radical polarisation.
	K: No, no, no, quite.

24:16	A: And finally we end up
	with the gods and the demons.

24:20	K: Quite.

24:21	A: Which, I take it you are suggesting,
	is nothing other than

24:24	the sheerest projection of
	our own demonic behaviour

24:29	which we have generated ourselves.
	K: That's right.

24:32	A: This makes tremendous
	sense to me. Please go on.

24:35	K: So, the way we live
	is the most impractical,

24:43	insane way of living.

24:47	And we want the insane way
	of living made more practical.

24:55	A: Yes, and there
	isn't a prayer for it.

25:00	K: But that is what we are
	demanding all the time.

25:03	We never say, let's find a
	way of living which is whole,

25:10	- and therefore healthy,
	sane, and holy.

25:13	And through that,
	through perceiving, acting

25:19	is the release of total energy,

25:23	which is non-fragmentary,

25:25	which isn't the artist,
	the business man,

25:29	the politician, the priest,
	the layman

25:33	- all that doesn't exist at all.

25:40	Now, to bring about such a mind,
	such a way of living,

25:45	one has to observe
	what actually is taking place

25:48	outside and inside,

25:52	in us, inside and outside.

25:55	And look at it,
	not try to change it,

25:59	not try to transform it,

26:00	not try to bring about
	different adjustment,

26:07	see actually what it is.

26:11	I look at a mountain,
	I can't change it.

26:16	Even with a bulldozer
	I can't change it.

26:20	But we want
	to change what we see.

26:27	The observer is the observed,
	you understand, sir?

26:32	Therefore,
	there is no change in that.

26:35	Whereas in perception
	there is no observer.

26:39	There is only seeing,
	and therefore acting.

26:44	A: This holds a mirror up to
	an earlier conversation we had

26:49	when you referred to
	beauty, passion, suffering.

26:55	K: Yes, suffering and action, yes.

26:58	A: And I remember
	asking you the question:

27:01	in order to recover the
	correct relationship among them

27:06	we must begin with the suffering

27:09	which, if perceived

27:10	as it ought to be perceived,
	generates passion.

27:15	K: That's right.
	A: One doesn't have to work it out.

27:17	It happens.

27:19	And behold,
	upon the same instant

27:24	beauty breaks out, and love.

27:27	So the passion in itself
	is compassion.

27:32	The 'com' comes in exactly

27:35	with the passion.
	K: With passion, that's right. A: Yes.

27:40	K: Now, sir, if you could,
	as a professor, or as a teacher,

27:45	or as a parent, point this out,

27:50	the impracticality of
	the way we are living,

27:56	the destructiveness of it,

27:58	the utter indifference
	to the earth.

28:04	We are destroying
	everything we touch.

28:10	And to point out

28:12	a way of living
	in which there is no conflict.

28:17	That, seems to me,
	is the function

28:20	of the
	highest form of education.

28:24	A: Yes, it has
	a requirement in it, though, that

28:31	seems to me very clear,

28:34	namely, the teacher himself
	must be without conflict.

28:39	This is a very, very
	different point of departure

28:42	from what occurs in our
	general educational structure,

28:46	particularly in professional
	educational activities,

28:50	where one gets a degree
	in professional education

28:54	rather than in an
	academic subject as such.

28:57	We are taught, for instance...

29:01	and I am speaking about
	this somewhat as an outsider,

29:03	because I don't have
	a degree in education,

29:05	but in an academic subject
	as such,

29:07	but I have observed
	in what goes on

29:10	with my colleagues in education,

29:13	that tremendous emphasis is

29:16	placed on techniques of teaching.
	K: Of course, of course.

29:20	A: And the question of
	the individual teacher

29:24	as having undergone
	a transformation

29:27	of the sort that
	you have been discussing

29:30	is not a factor
	of radical concern.

29:35	What is, of course,
	in an altruistic sense

29:38	a matter of concern
	is that the teacher have

29:42	the interests of the students
	at heart,

29:45	and that sort of thing,

29:47	which, of course,
	is laudable in itself,

29:49	but it's after the fact,

29:50	it's after the fact of
	this first transformation.

29:54	K: Yes, sir, but you see,

29:59	first I must transform myself,

30:02	so I can teach.
	A: Precisely, precisely.

30:04	K: Wait, see that there
	is a little bit...

30:06	something in it
	that is not quite accurate.

30:10	That means I have to wait
	till I change.

30:16	Why can't I change,
	if I am an educator,

30:20	in the very act of teaching?

30:27	The boys, the students,
	live in conflict.

30:31	The educator lives in conflict.

30:33	Now, if I was an educator
	with a lot of students,

30:38	I would begin with that
	and say,

30:39	'I am in conflict,
	and you are in conflict,

30:42	let us see in discussing,

30:46	in becoming aware
	of our relationship,

30:50	in teaching, if it is not
	possible for me and for you

30:56	to dissolve this conflict'.

31:01	Then it has action.

31:03	But if I have to wait till
	I'm free of all conflict,

31:08	I can wait till doomsday.

31:10	A: I see now exactly
	what you are saying.

31:13	What you are saying
	is literally this:

31:16	the teacher,
	who is presently in conflict,

31:20	simply just acknowledges this.

31:25	Walks into the classroom...
	K: That's right, sir.

31:27	A: ...not as somebody who
	is free from conflict.

31:31	K: That's right.
	A: No,

31:33	but he walks into the classroom

31:35	- and here it is,
	we are facing it.

31:37	And he looks at his students
	and he lays it out.

31:41	K: That's the first thing
	I would discuss,

31:43	not the technical subjects.

31:46	Because that's living.
	And then I discuss.

31:51	And also, in the very
	teaching of a technical subject

31:55	I would say, all right,

31:57	let us see how we approach,
	you know?

31:59	I can learn from that,

32:01	so that both the student
	and the educator

32:04	know their conflicts

32:06	and are interested in
	dissolving the conflict,

32:09	and therefore they are
	tremendously concerned.

32:15	That produces an
	extraordinary relationship.

32:20	Because I have watched it.

32:21	I go to several schools
	in India and in England,

32:26	and it takes place.

32:31	A: In this taking place
	love breaks out.

32:36	K: Of course, of course.
	That is the very essence of it.

32:39	Because I care,
	I feel responsible.

32:46	A: May I go into this
	just a little bit?

32:51	One of the things
	that has concerned me

32:53	in this series of our dialogues

32:55	is that someone should have
	perhaps not seen as clearly

33:03	as I think you have
	pointed out for me,

33:08	that in our discussions
	of thought and of knowledge

33:15	what we have been saying is

33:18	that there is some dysfunction
	in thought and in knowledge,

33:26	which relates to its own nature,

33:30	the nature of thought, and
	the nature of knowledge,

33:32	which could very well
	give the impression

33:34	that thought is a disease or
	that knowledge is a disease,

33:41	rather than
	giving the impression

33:43	- as I have understood from you -

33:45	that thought and knowledge
	have their proper uses.

33:48	K: Of course.

33:49	A: Their natures
	are not corrupt as such.

33:52	K: Obviously not.
	A: Exactly.

33:53	K: It is the usage of it. Quite.
	A: Right.

33:55	Therefore it becomes
	of utmost importance,

33:59	I think, in understanding
	what you are saying,

34:02	to be aware of the corrective
	that we bring to bear,

34:07	when together we examine
	the uses of thought

34:11	and the uses of knowledge.

34:13	While at the same time,

34:15	not assuming that the
	principle of thought,

34:18	the principle of knowledge
	is in its own nature corrupt.

34:22	K: No. Quite right.
	A: So that in a classroom

34:24	we could study a text,

34:27	in which an assertion is made,

34:30	a positive statement is made,

34:32	without thinking that name
	and form are in themselves...

34:38	K: Corrupt.
	A: ...corrupt.

34:39	K: Obviously not.

34:42	A microphone is a microphone.

34:44	There is nothing corrupt about it.

34:45	A: Exactly, but,

34:50	you know, the thing comes home
	to me with tremendous force,

34:55	that one must begin

34:57	in his relationship to his
	students with doing this.

35:01	I must tell a little story
	on myself here.

35:04	Years ago I went to
	hear a lecture of yours

35:08	and I listened, I thought,
	very, very carefully.

35:15	And, of course,

35:19	one lecture is not in itself,

35:25	perhaps at least for someone
	like me, it was not enough.

35:30	Or another way to put it,
	perhaps more honestly would be,

35:34	I was not enough
	at the time for the lecture,

35:38	because it seems,
	as I recall it now,

35:39	that the principles that
	we have been discussing

35:42	you stated very, very clearly.

35:44	I went away from that lecture
	with the impression

35:49	that there was a very
	close relationship

35:53	between what you are saying
	and Buddhism,

35:55	and I was thinking about
	this whole label thing

35:58	as scholars are wont to do

36:00	- you know how we divide
	the world up into species.

36:05	And in our series
	of conversations now

36:11	I've come to see that
	I was profoundly mistaken.

36:15	Profoundly mistaken.

36:17	And I pinch myself
	to think, you know,

36:22	I might have gone on thinking
	what I thought before,

36:27	which had nothing to
	do with anything

36:28	that you were concerned in.

36:33	It is a revelation to face it that

36:38	one doesn't have to have
	a credential to start with,

36:41	before he walks into
	the room.

36:44	He just has to start looking

36:48	at the very thing
	that he believes

36:50	is going to bring him into

36:52	a hostile relationship
	with his class

36:55	in order... because we believe

36:57	that there are things that
	we must avoid talking about,

37:01	because they create dissension,
	disruption and put us off.

37:05	And therefore
	let's not talk about conflict.

37:09	Or
	if we are going to talk about it,

37:11	let's talk about it in terms of

37:14	our being the ones
	who have the light

37:16	over against
	these others who don't,

37:19	and we have to take
	the good news to them.

37:22	K: It's like a guru.

37:24	A: Right, but simply to
	come into the room and say,

37:28	let's have a look
	without any presuppositions,

37:32	without my thinking that
	I have this in hand and you don't,

37:37	or you have it and I don't.

37:39	We're going to just hold it
	together.

37:42	K: Right, sir. Share together.

37:44	A: Share it together, and behold...

37:48	Am I following you?
	K: Perfectly.

37:50	A: Oh, that's wonderful.

37:57	I'm going to do this,

38:01	after our conversation
	comes to an end,

38:05	I will walk into that room.

38:09	Do go on.

38:12	K: So sir, the energy that
	is created through conflict

38:17	is destructive.

38:21	The energy
	that is created through

38:24	conflict, struggle, battle

38:26	produces violence, hysteria,
	neurotic actions, and so on.

38:33	Whereas the action of perception

38:38	is total, non-fragmentary,

38:42	and therefore
	it is healthy, sane

38:45	and brings about
	such intense care and responsibility.

38:54	Now, that is the way to live:

38:58	seeing-acting, seeing-acting
	all the time.

39:03	I cannot see,

39:05	if there is an observer
	different from the observed.

39:11	The observer is the observed.

39:17	A: This does a very marvellous
	thing to what we call

39:21	our confrontation with death.
	K: We'll come to that, yes.

39:25	A: Yes, I see I have made a...

39:27	K: ...jump.

39:28	No, no, sir, that's right.

39:32	So you see,

39:36	our whole content of consciousness
	is the battle,

39:44	is the battleground,

39:50	and this battle we call living.

39:57	And in that battle,
	how can love exist?

40:02	If I am hitting you,
	if I am competing with you,

40:05	if I am trying to go beyond you,
	successful, ruthless,

40:11	where does the flame of love,
	or compassion, tenderness,

40:16	gentleness come into all that?
	It doesn't.

40:20	And that's why our society
	as it is now has no sense of

40:26	moral responsibility

40:28	with regard to action
	or with regard to love.

40:31	It doesn't exist.

40:35	A: I'm going back into the context
	of my own experience,

40:38	in the classroom again.

40:41	It has always seemed to me that

40:43	the first stanza of the Gita,
	the first stanza,

40:49	the first chapter of the Gita,
	which begins:

40:52	dharmaksettre Kuruksettre
	- in the field of Dharma,

40:58	in the Kuru field
	- that 'in the Kuru field'

41:03	is a statement in apposition
	and that the field is one.

41:07	I have walked into class when
	we started to do the Gita,

41:10	and I've tried to show
	both linguistically,

41:14	as it seemed to me was
	capable from the text,

41:17	and in terms of the
	spirit of the whole,

41:21	that this was really
	what was being said,

41:24	that it's one field,
	it's not two fields,

41:27	though we have one army over here,
	and the other over here,

41:31	but they don't occupy two fields.

41:33	Somehow it is one field.
	K: It is our earth.

41:36	A: Right. It's the whole.
	K: Yes, sir.

41:40	A: But, you see, I think
	I would have done better

41:43	now that I've listened to you,
	if I had gone into class

41:46	and instead of making
	that statement,

41:50	and inviting them to look
	carefully at the text,

41:54	and to bear that in mind

41:56	as we proceed
	through the teaching,

42:00	and watch for any
	misinterpretations of that

42:04	that will have occurred in
	commentary after commentary,

42:08	it would have been better
	if I had started the other way.

42:12	It would have been better,
	if I had started by saying,

42:16	let's have a look and see together
	whether it is one field

42:22	or whether it's a
	field with conflict.

42:24	We are not going to read the
	book at all at this point,

42:27	we are just going to start here.
	This is the field.

42:32	The classroom is the field.
	Now, let's take a look.

42:37	That would have been
	the better way.

42:38	K: If you have understood that, sir,

42:40	the classroom is the field,
	and if you understand that,

42:43	you have understood
	the whole thing.

42:45	A: Exactly.

42:49	But I went in
	with the notion that,

42:56	though I had grasped that,
	so I thought

43:02	it was enough simply
	to show that verbally.

43:08	But it's patently not.

43:12	And this is terrifying.

43:14	Because even though
	if you say in the classroom

43:17	what ostensibly passes for
	what we call the right thing,

43:24	it still will not prevail
	in terms of this act

43:30	that we've been talking about.
	K: Act. Quite right.

43:34	Can we go, sir, from there.

43:41	We've discussed life, living,

43:43	in which
	love does not exist at all.

43:48	Love can only exist

43:50	when the perceiver
	is the perceived and acts,

43:55	as we said.

43:56	Then that flame,
	that compassion,

44:00	that sense of holding
	the earth in your arms as it were,

44:10	if that is understood,
	and from that - behaviour,

44:15	because that is the foundation;

44:19	if there is no behaviour,

44:22	in the sense of
	non-conflicting behaviour,

44:28	then after establishing
	that in ourselves

44:32	or in observing it,

44:33	we can proceed next
	to the question of death.

44:37	Because the question of death
	is an immense thing.

44:49	To me living, love, and
	death are not separate.

44:56	They are one movement.

45:00	It isn't death over there,

45:02	which I am going to meet in
	twenty years or the next day.

45:07	It is there.

45:08	It is there with love
	and with living.

45:12	It is a continuous movement,
	non-divisive.

45:21	This is the way I live, think, feel.
	That's my life.

45:26	I mean this.
	These are not just words to me.

45:30	So, before we enter into
	the question of death

45:36	we have to go into the question
	of what is consciousness?

45:45	Because if one doesn't
	understand what is consciousness,

45:51	not the explanation,

45:56	not the description, not the word,

45:58	but the reality of consciousness.

46:03	Am I, as a human,
	ever conscious?

46:12	And what is to be conscious?

46:15	What is it to be aware?

46:20	Am I aware totally, or
	just occasionally I am aware

46:26	when a crisis arises,
	otherwise I am dormant.

46:34	So that's why
	it becomes very important

46:37	to find out
	what is consciousness.

46:43	Right, sir?
	A: Yes.

46:44	What you have just said
	seems to me to indicate that

46:47	we are making a distinction
	between consciousness,

46:51	which is a continuing movement,

46:57	utterly situated in act
	as over against these blips,

47:03	these eruptions virtually,

47:06	within
	the sleepy course of nature.

47:11	K: That's right.
	A: Yes.

47:12	I see that. Yes, yes.
	Please go ahead.

47:15	K: So, what is consciousness?

47:20	Consciousness is its content.

47:26	- I am putting it very simply.

47:28	I prefer to talk about
	these things very simply,

47:32	not elaborate, linguistic
	descriptions and theories,

47:36	and suppositions,
	and all the rest of it.

47:38	That has no meaning to me
	personally.

47:40	A: If it is true, it will be simple.
	K: Simple.

47:43	A: Yes, of course.

47:46	K: Consciousness is its content.

47:50	The content is consciousness.

47:53	The two are not separate.

48:00	That is, the thoughts,
	the anxieties, the identifications,

48:07	the conflicts,

48:10	the attachments, detachments,
	the fears, the pleasures,

48:14	the agony, the suffering,
	the beliefs,

48:19	the neurotic actions
	- all that is my consciousness.

48:23	Because that is the content.

48:27	A: This is an equivalent statement to

48:32	'The world is me and
	I am the world'.

48:35	So there's a continuity there.
	K: Yes, that's right.

48:38	So, the content which says:
	that is my furniture,

48:48	that's my God, that's my belief,

48:54	- with all its nuances
	and subtleties -

48:58	is part
	of my consciousness,

49:02	is part of the consciousness
	which says: I am.

49:10	I am that, I am the furniture.

49:15	When I identify myself saying:
	that's my furniture,

49:18	I must keep it
	- you follow? -

49:20	when I am attached to it,
	I am that.

49:23	I am that knowledge, which says,
	I have acquired knowledge,

49:28	I have grown in it,
	I have been successful in it,

49:30	it has given me great comfort,

49:32	it has given me a house,
	a position, power.

49:36	That house is me.

49:41	The battle
	which I have been through

49:43	- suffering, agony -
	that's me,

49:45	that's my consciousness.

49:48	So
	consciousness is its content,

49:56	therefore there is no division

49:58	as consciousness
	separate from its content.

50:04	I can extend or widen
	the consciousness,

50:08	horizontally or vertically,

50:13	but it is still
	within that field.

50:18	I can extend it saying,
	God is immense.

50:24	That's my belief.

50:26	And I've extended
	my consciousness by

50:31	imagining that it is extended.

50:35	Whatever thought
	has created in the world

50:42	and inside me is the content.

50:48	The whole world,
	especially in the West,

50:51	is based on thought.

50:54	Its activities, its explorations,
	its achievements,

51:00	its religions, and so on,

51:02	is fundamentally
	the result of thought

51:07	with its images,
	and so on, so on, so on.

51:09	So that is the content
	of consciousness.

51:14	Right?
	A: Right.

51:16	K: Now, from that arises,
	what is death?

51:24	Is death
	the ending of consciousness

51:29	- with its content -

51:32	or is death a continuity
	of that consciousness?

51:40	Your consciousness
	is not different from mine.

51:45	It may have little variations,
	little modifications,

51:50	little more expansion,
	little contraction, and so on,

51:54	but essentially consciousness
	is yours as well as mine,

52:00	because
	I am attached to my house,

52:03	so are you.

52:05	I am attached to my knowledge,
	I am attached to my family,

52:08	I am in despair
	whether I live in India,

52:11	or in England, or in America,
	wherever it is.

52:15	So
	that consciousness is common.

52:22	It is irrefutable.

52:24	You follow, sir?
	A: Oh, yes. I do follow closely.

52:27	K: So, see what happens.

52:33	I never have examined
	this content.

52:36	I have never looked at it closely
	and I am frightened,

52:41	frightened of something
	which I call death, the unknown.

52:47	Let us call it for the moment
	the unknown.

52:49	So, I'm frightened.

52:54	There is no answer to it.

52:58	Somebody comes along
	and says, yes, my friend,

53:01	there is life after death.

53:06	I have proof for it.

53:08	I know it exists because
	I have met my brother, my son

53:14	- we will go into that presently.

53:17	So I, frightened, anxious,
	fearful, diseased

53:24	- you follow? -
	I accept that tremendously,

53:28	instantly say, yes,
	there is reincarnation.

53:34	I am going to be born next life.

53:38	And that life
	is related to karma.

53:43	The word 'karma' means to act.
	A: Yes.

53:47	K: Not all the rigmarole
	involved in it, just to act.

53:53	See what is involved.

53:56	That is, if I believe in
	reincarnation, that is,

54:00	this consciousness

54:03	with its content,

54:06	which is the 'me' - my ego,
	my self, my activities,

54:11	my hopes, pleasures,
	all that is my consciousness -

54:14	that consciousness
	is going to be born next life,

54:20	which is the common
	consciousness of you and me,

54:24	and him, and her.

54:28	That's going to be born
	next life.

54:30	And they say,
	if you behave properly now,

54:35	you'll be rewarded next life.

54:38	That's part of the causation.

54:40	A: That's part of
	the content of consciousness.

54:42	K: Causation and the effect.
	A: Yes.

54:46	K: So behave,

54:48	because you are going
	to be punished next life.

54:52	You will be rewarded next life.

54:55	The whole of the
	Eastern world is based on it,

54:59	believes in reincarnation.

55:03	So what happens?

55:06	I have taken comfort
	in a belief,

55:11	but actually
	I don't carry it out:

55:14	which says, behave now,

55:18	be good now,
	don't hurt another now.

55:24	A: Actually the idea is
	that I should behave now,

55:31	- we've been through
	this 'ought' stuff -

55:33	I should this, I should that,

55:35	I should the other because
	of what will take place later.

55:38	But then I take comfort
	in the thought

55:40	that it's an endless process,

55:43	and it's somehow built into it

55:45	that I'll get another chance.

55:47	So I can sort of stall,
	I can stall.

55:50	K: I can stall. I can postpone,
	I can misbehave.

55:53	A: Yes. Because we are all
	destined to make it in the end.

55:57	K: Eventually.

55:59	A: Yes. Which shows that
	there's no grasp of what

56:02	throughout these conversations
	you've been talking about,

56:05	the immediacy and urgency of act.
	K: Act. That's right.

56:09	A: Yes, yes, I follow.
	K: So, you see,

56:12	the Hindus probably were
	the originators of this idea:

56:18	cause, effect.

56:22	The effect will be
	modified by next causation.

56:28	So there is this endless chain.

56:33	And they say, it's endless,
	we'll break it sometime.

56:39	Therefore doesn't
	matter what you do now.

56:42	Belief gives you great comfort
	in believing

56:48	that you will continue,
	you will be with your

56:51	brother, wife,
	husband, whatever it is.

56:54	But in the meantime
	don't bother too seriously,

56:56	don't take life too seriously.
	A: Exactly, yes, yes.

57:01	K: Have a good time, in fact.
	Enjoy yourself.

57:04	Or do whatever you want to do,

57:06	pay a little next life,
	but carry on.

57:09	A: I was speaking to a well-known
	Hindu teacher about this

57:13	and I made this very remark
	that you have just stated,

57:17	and I thought it
	would have some force.

57:19	And I said,

57:22	you see, there's no hope
	of stopping repeating,

57:27	if an act is not made
	immediately with respect to this,

57:31	therefore in terms of the
	content of the consciousness

57:36	of a whole people
	that bask in this notion,

57:42	there can be nothing
	but an endless repetition

57:44	and no true concern.

57:45	K: What did he say?
	A: All he did was laugh,

57:48	as though I had somehow
	perceived something

57:52	which most people
	apparently are not really

57:56	bothering their heads
	to look at.

57:58	But the extraordinary thing to me
	was

58:00	that he showed no concern

58:04	for what he discerned
	intellectually.

58:07	K: Sir, that's what they are, hypocrites
	- you follow, sir?

58:11	They are hypocrites,
	when they believe that

58:14	and do something quite contrary.

58:16	A: Precisely,
	I understand what you mean.

58:18	What you are saying,
	there is the usage

58:20	of the Biblical notion of
	hypocrite in that strict sense.

58:24	K: Sir, in the strict sense,...

58:25	...of course.
	A: Yes, in the very strict sense.

58:27	In our next conversation
	could we continue with this,

58:31	because...

58:32	K: Oh, there is a great
	deal involved in this.

58:33	A: Splendid. I do look
	forward to that.

58:36	K: Yes. We'll go into it.