Krishnamurti_EN

Krishnamurti Subtitles

Death, life and love are indivisible

San Diego - 26 February 1974

Conversation with A.W. Anderson 14

0:38	Krishnamurti in Dialogue
	with Dr. Allan W. Anderson

0:43	J. Krishnamurti was
	born in South India

0:46	and educated in England.

0:48	For the past 40 years

0:49	he has been speaking
	in the United States,

0:52	Europe, India, Australia,
	and other parts of the world.

0:56	From the outset of his life's work

0:58	he repudiated all connections

1:00	with organised
	religions and ideologies

1:02	and said that his only concern

1:04	was to set man absolutely
	unconditionally free.

1:09	He is the author of many books,

1:10	among them The Awakening
	of Intelligence,

1:13	The Urgency of Change,

1:15	Freedom From the Known,
	and The Flight of the Eagle.

1:20	This is one of a series
	of dialogues between

1:23	Krishnamurti and Dr.
	Allan W. Anderson,

1:25	who is professor of
	religious studies

1:27	at San Diego State University

1:29	where he teaches Indian
	and Chinese scriptures

1:32	and the oracular tradition.

1:34	Dr. Anderson, a published poet,

1:36	received his degree
	from Columbia University

1:39	and the Union Theological Seminary.

1:41	He has been honoured with the
	distinguished Teaching Award

1:45	from the California
	State University.

1:49	A: Mr. Krishnamurti, in
	our last conversation

1:53	we were beginning to talk about
	consciousness

1:58	and its relation to death
	in the context of living

2:03	as a total movement.
	K: Yes.

2:06	A: And we even

2:07	touched on the word
	'reincarnation' toward the end,

2:10	when we had to draw our
	conversation to its conclusion.

2:15	I do hope that we can begin
	to continue there.

2:21	K: You see,
	one of the factors in death is

2:29	the mind is so frightened.

2:33	We are so frightened
	of that very word

2:37	and nobody talks about it.

2:42	I mean
	it isn't a daily conversation.

2:46	It is something to be avoided,

2:48	something that is inevitable,

2:50	for God's sake, keep it
	as far away as possible.

2:54	A: We even paint corpses
	to make them look

2:56	as if they are not dead.
	K: That's the most absurd thing.

3:00	Now, what we are discussing,
	sir, is, isn't it,

3:06	the understanding of death,

3:10	its relation to living,

3:14	and this thing called love.

3:19	One cannot possibly understand
	the immensity

3:23	- and it is immense,
	this thing called death -

3:29	unless there is
	a real freedom from fear.

3:35	That's why we talked sometime ago

3:39	about the problem of fear.

3:42	Unless the mind frees itself
	from fear,

3:50	there is no possibility
	of understanding

3:53	the extraordinary beauty,
	strength,

3:57	and the vitality of death.

4:02	A: That's a very, very
	remarkable way to put it:

4:05	the vitality of death.

4:08	And yet, normally,
	we regard it as the total

4:12	negation of life.
	K: The negation of life.

4:14	That's right.

4:15	So, if we are enquiring
	into this question of death,

4:21	fear must be completely
	non-existent in us.

4:28	Then I can proceed.

4:29	Then I can find out
	what death means.

4:35	We have touched a little bit
	on reincarnation,

4:39	the belief that is maintained
	throughout the East,

4:45	which has no reality
	in daily life.

4:50	It is like going to church
	every Sunday

4:53	and being mischievous
	for the rest of the six days.

5:00	So - you follow? - a person
	who is really serious,

5:04	really attentive,
	goes into this question of death,

5:07	he must understand
	what it means, the quality of it,

5:12	not the ending of it.

5:15	That's what we are going
	to a little bit discuss.

5:21	The ancient Egyptians,

5:26	the pharaohs, and all the

5:29	first dynasty
	till the 18th, and so on,

5:32	they prepared for death.

5:40	They said, we will cross that river
	with all our goods,

5:45	with all our chariots,
	with all our belongings,

5:48	with all our property,

5:51	and therefore their caves,
	their tombs were filled

5:54	with all the things
	of their daily life

5:57	- corn, you know all that.

6:00	So, living was only a
	means to an ending, dying.

6:10	That's one way of looking at it.

6:14	The other is reincarnation,

6:17	which is the Indian,
	Asiatic outlook.

6:21	And there is this whole idea
	of resurrection,

6:24	of the Christians.

6:26	Reborn, carried by Gabriel Angel,etc.,
	to heaven,

6:31	and you will be rewarded.

6:36	Now, what is the fact?

6:40	These are all theories,

6:41	suppositions,
	beliefs, and non-facts.

6:47	I mean, supposed to be born,
	Jesus comes out of the grave,

6:53	resurrected physically.
	That is just a belief.

6:58	There were no cameras then,

7:02	there were no ten people
	to say, yes, I saw it.

7:07	It is only somebody imagined.

7:13	We will go into that
	a little bit later.

7:17	So, there is this living
	and preparing for death

7:23	as the ancient Egyptians did.

7:26	Then there is the reincarnation.

7:28	Then there is resurrection.

7:30	Now, if one isn't frightened
	- you follow, sir? - deeply,

7:37	then what is death?

7:40	What is it that dies,
	apart from the organism?

7:46	The organism may continue,

7:49	if you look after it
	very carefully,

7:51	for eighty, or ninety,
	or one hundred years.

7:56	If you have no disease,
	if you have no accidents,

7:59	if there is a way of living
	sanely, healthily,

8:06	perhaps you will last one
	hundred years or 110 years.

8:09	And then what?

8:13	You follow, sir?

8:14	You will live
	one hundred years, for what?

8:18	For this kind of life?

8:21	Fighting, quarrelling,
	bickering, bitterness,

8:25	anger, jealousy, futility,
	a meaningless existence.

8:31	It is a meaningless existence
	as we are living now.

8:36	A: And in terms of
	our previous remarks,

8:38	this is all the content

8:39	of our consciousness.
	K: Our consciousness. That's right.

8:44	So, what is it that dies?

8:47	And what is it
	one is frightened of?

8:52	You follow? What is it,
	one is frightened of in death?

8:56	Losing the known?

8:59	Losing my wife? Losing my house?

9:02	Losing all the things
	I have acquired?

9:06	Losing this content
	of consciousness?

9:11	You follow?

9:14	So, can the content of consciousness
	be totally emptied?

9:27	You follow, sir?

9:28	A: Yes, I do.
	K: Which is the living.

9:33	The dying is the living,

9:37	when the content
	is totally emptied.

9:47	That means no attachment.

9:54	It isn't a brutal cutting off,

9:57	but the understanding
	of attachment,

10:00	the understanding of dependency,

10:03	the understanding of acquisition,

10:06	power, position, anxiety - all that.

10:10	The emptying of that
	is the real death.

10:18	And therefore
	the emptying of consciousness

10:24	means the consciousness,

10:26	which has created
	its own limitation

10:30	by its content, comes to an end.

10:33	I wonder if I have...
	A: Yes, you have.

10:38	I was following you
	very carefully,

10:44	and it occurred to me
	that there is

10:51	a radical relation
	between birth and death,

10:56	that the two,

10:59	when they are looked upon
	as moments in a total cycle,

11:04	are not grasped
	at the depth level

11:07	that you are beginning
	to speak about.

11:09	K: Yes, sir.
	A: Am I correct?

11:10	K: Correct.
	A: Good, please do go on.

11:13	K: So, death becomes a living

11:20	when
	the content of consciousness,

11:24	which makes its own frontier,
	its own limitation,

11:28	comes to an end.

11:36	And this is not a theory,

11:38	not a speculative intellectual
	grasp,

11:44	but the actual
	perception of attachment.

11:49	I am taking that as an example.

11:52	Being attached to something

11:54	- property, man, woman,
	the book I have written,

12:00	or the knowledge
	I have acquired.

12:03	The attachment.

12:05	And the battle to be detached.

12:09	Because attachment brings pain.

12:12	Therefore I say to myself,
	I must be detached.

12:15	And the battle begins.

12:19	And the whole content of
	my consciousness is this

12:26	- the battle which we described
	previously.

12:28	Now, can that content
	be emptied - empty itself?

12:35	Not emptied
	by an act of perception,

12:39	you understand?
	- empty itself.

12:43	Which means: can this
	whole content be observed

12:51	with its unconscious content?

12:55	You follow, sir?
	A: Yes, I do. I'm thinking...

13:00	K: I can be consciously aware

13:02	of the content
	of my consciousness

13:06	- my house, my property, my wife,
	my children, my job,

13:11	the things I have acquired,
	the things I have learned.

13:14	I can be consciously aware
	of all that.

13:16	But also there is a deeper

13:19	content in the very recesses
	of my mind,

13:26	which is racial,
	collective, acquired,

13:35	the things that unconsciously

13:38	I have gathered, the influences,
	the pressures, the strains

13:42	of living in a world
	that is corrupt.

13:45	All that has seeped in,
	all that has gathered in there.

13:50	A: Both personal and impersonal.

13:52	K: Impersonal, yes, that's right.

13:54	A: This includes then

13:56	what the depth psychologists
	are calling

13:58	'collective unconscious'.
	K: I don't know what they call it.

14:00	A: As well as
	the personal consciousness.

14:03	K: Collective as well as...
	So there is that.

14:06	Now, can all that be exposed?

14:11	Because this is very important.

14:14	If the mind really wants to understand,
	grasp the full meaning of death,

14:24	the vastness of it, the great
	quality of a mind that says,

14:28	yes, that's empty!
	- you follow?

14:30	It gives a tremendous vitality,
	energy.

14:35	So, my question is:

14:37	can the mind be aware totally
	of all the content,

14:46	hidden as well as the open,

14:49	the collective,
	the personal, the racial,

14:54	the transitory?

14:56	You follow? The whole of that.

15:00	Now, we say it is possible
	through analysis.

15:07	A: Yes, we do.

15:08	K: I said analysis is paralysis.

15:13	Because every analysis
	must be perfect, complete.

15:22	And you are frightened
	that it might not be complete.

15:26	And if you have not completed it,
	you carry it over

15:30	as a memory, which will then
	analyse the next incident.

15:36	So each analysis brings
	its own incompleteness.

15:41	A: Oh, certainly, yes.
	K: Therefore it is a total paralysis.

15:48	A: In following what you are saying

15:50	I'm very taken with what
	we usually regard as death,

15:58	which has a

16:00	very clear relationship to
	what you've said about the

16:03	endless series of analytical acts.
	K: Acts. Yes, sir.

16:07	A: We regard death as terminus
	in terms of a line.

16:12	K: Quite,
	because we think laterally.

16:15	A: We think laterally, exactly.
	But what you're saying is:

16:19	on the contrary, we must
	regard this vertically. K: Yes.

16:25	A: And in the regarding
	of it vertically

16:29	we no longer see

16:31	- please check me
	if I am off here -

16:33	we no longer see death

16:37	as simply a moment of termination
	to a certain

16:47	trajectory of repetition.

16:51	But there is a total
	qualitative change here,

16:58	which is not
	the cessation of something

17:04	that we have to regret

17:07	as though we had lost
	something valuable.

17:08	K: Yes, I am leaving
	my wife and children. A: Right.

17:11	K: And my property, my
	blasted bank account.

17:18	A: Yes, yes.
	K: You see, sir,

17:21	if one can go very deeply
	into this:

17:25	there is this content,
	which is my consciousness,

17:32	acquired, inherited,
	imposed, influenced,

17:37	propaganda, attachment,
	detachment,

17:39	anxiety, fear, pleasure
	- all that,

17:43	and also the hidden things.

17:46	I'm asking myself,
	since analysis is really paralysis,

17:54	- not an intellectual supposition

17:56	but, actually,
	it is not a complete act,

18:01	analysis can never produce
	a complete act.

18:05	The very word 'analysis' means

18:07	to break up,
	you know, the breaking up.

18:11	A: To loosen up.
	K: Loosen up, break it up.

18:13	Therefore I reject that totally.

18:19	I won't analyse, because I see

18:22	the stupidity,
	the paralytic process of it.

18:28	Then what am I to do?
	You are following?

18:31	Because that's the tradition,
	introspective,

18:37	or analysis by myself
	or by a professional,

18:46	which is now the fashion,
	and so on, so on, so on.

18:49	So if the mind
	sees the truth of it,

18:53	and therefore
	analysis falls away,

18:56	then what is the mind
	to do with the content?

19:01	You...

19:04	A: Yes, I do see that.

19:07	K: We know what the content is.

19:09	We don't have to
	eternally describe.

19:12	Now, what is it to do?
	It has to be emptied.

19:18	Otherwise
	it is mere continuity.

19:21	A: No, there is no use analysing
	what is already there,

19:25	because that will not change

19:27	what is there in any way,
	shape or form.

19:30	That seems to be very,
	very plain.

19:36	Perhaps you would
	for a moment explain

19:45	why
	we simply refuse to see that.

19:51	We do believe
	that an analytical enquiry

19:55	is ordered to a revelation.
	We do believe that. K: No, sir.

19:59	You can see it in a minute.

20:00	Analysis implies the analyser
	and the analysed. A: Yes.

20:06	K: The analyser is the analysed.

20:12	A: Yes, we are back to
	the observer and the observed.

20:15	K: Obviously!
	I am analysing my anger.

20:17	Who is the analyser?

20:19	Part of the fragment,
	which is anger.

20:25	So, the analyser
	pretends to be different

20:30	from the analysed.

20:32	But when I see the truth that
	the analyser is the analysed,

20:37	then a totally different
	action takes place.

20:42	Then there is no conflict

20:43	between the analyser
	and the analysed.

20:45	There is instant action,
	a perception,

20:49	which is the ending
	and going beyond the 'what is'.

20:54	A: The reason I asked for
	the explanation was because

20:58	of the concern raised earlier
	about knowledge.

21:01	K: Yes. After all,
	the observer is knowledge.

21:06	A: Yes, I was concerned that

21:12	study, in its proper form

21:16	was not regarded - in the
	context of our discussion -

21:22	as unprofitable as such.
	K: No, no, of course not.

21:24	A: We don't mean that.
	K: We didn't even discuss it.

21:27	That's so obvious.
	A: Exactly. Yes, fine, do go.

21:29	Well, yes, it is obvious
	in terms of our discussion,

21:33	but the thing
	that concerns me is that

21:35	so ingrained is the notion that...

21:39	For instance, in the
	story I told you about,

21:42	when I came to hear you
	years ago,

21:44	I began doing analysis
	while I was listening to your words,

21:49	and consequently I could
	hardly end up with anything

21:53	qualitatively different
	from what I came in with.

21:57	But you see,
	I didn't see that at the time.

22:00	And in our videotaping
	our conversations here,

22:04	this will be listened to,

22:06	and when we say 'yes' about
	knowledge, this is obvious

22:10	- in the context of our conversation
	it is.

22:12	But then I'm thinking of...

22:14	K: Not only in the context
	of our conversation,...

22:16	...it is so.
	A: It is as such.

22:18	K: Life is that.
	A: Exactly, I couldn't agree,

22:21	but immediately I flashed back

22:23	to my own behaviour,

22:26	and I know that
	I was not alone in that,

22:31	because I listened
	to other conversations

22:33	regarding it at the time.

22:35	But, yes, I see what you mean
	now about analysis as such.

22:40	It seems to me very clear.
	K: Analysis implies, sir,

22:42	the analyser and the analysed.

22:44	A: Precisely.
	K: The analyser is the analysed.

22:47	And also analysis
	implies time, duration.

22:50	I must take time to unearth,
	to uncover,

22:57	and it will take me
	rest of my life.

23:00	A: This is a confusion
	we have about death too,

23:03	death's relation to time.

23:04	K: That's right. I'm coming to that.

23:06	A: Yes, of course,
	yes, please do, please.

23:09	K: So, the mind, perceiving,
	discards analysis completely.

23:17	Not because it's not profitable,

23:22	not because it doesn't get me
	where I want,

23:25	but I see the impossibility

23:29	of emptying the consciousness
	of its content,

23:33	if the mind approaches
	through that channel:

23:40	analyser, time,
	and the utter futility

23:45	- at the end of 40 years
	I am still analysing.

23:50	A: And the content
	of my consciousness

23:52	has not qualitatively changed
	at all. K: Changed at all.

23:54	A: No, it's becoming intensified
	in its corruption.

23:58	K: That's right. That's right.

24:02	But the mind
	must see its content,

24:07	must be totally aware of it,
	not fragments of it.

24:14	How is that to be done?

24:17	You follow, sir?
	A: Yes, I do.

24:19	K: Because that's very important
	in relation to death.

24:25	Because the content of my
	consciousness is consciousness.

24:32	That consciousness is me,

24:35	my ego, my saying,
	'I and you, we and they',

24:45	whether they the communists,
	they the Catholics,

24:48	they the Protestants,
	or they the Hindus - they and we.

24:54	So,
	it is very important to find out

24:59	whether it is possible
	to empty consciousness

25:03	of its content.

25:04	Which means the dying to the me.

25:12	You follow?

25:14	A: Yes, I do.
	K: Because that is the me.

25:19	A: This is
	where the terror starts.

25:21	K: That's where the terror starts.

25:22	A: Precisely.
	There's the intuition that, if I die

25:25	to the content of this consciousness,
	that I am wiped out.

25:29	K: Yes.

25:31	I, who have worked,

25:34	who have lived a righteous life
	- or unrighteous life -

25:37	who have done so much,
	mischief or good,

25:43	I have struggled
	to better myself,

25:47	I've been so kind, so gentle,

25:49	so angry, so bitter
	- you follow? -

25:52	and when you say
	empty your consciousness,

25:57	it means you are asking me
	to die to all that!

26:01	So, you are touching
	at the very root of fear.

26:10	A: Yes, exactly. K: At the root
	of terror of not being.

26:20	Oh yes, that's it, sir.

26:23	And
	I want to immortalise that me.

26:32	I do it through books,

26:35	writing a book, and say,
	famous book.

26:39	Or I paint.

26:43	Or through paint, through works,
	through good acts,

26:47	through building this or that,
	I immortalise myself.

26:55	A: This has very pernicious effects
	within the family,

26:59	because we must have a son
	in order to...

27:03	K: ...carry on.
	A: ...immortalise the name in time.

27:06	K: Therefore the family
	becomes a danger. A: Exactly.

27:15	K: So,
	look what we have done, sir:

27:18	the ancient Egyptians
	immortalised themselves,

27:23	made their life immortal
	by thinking, carrying on.

27:27	A: Perpetuity.
	K: Perpetuity.

27:31	And the robbers
	come and tear it all to pieces.

27:37	Tutankhamen
	is merely a mask now,

27:41	a golden mask with a mummy,
	and so on.

27:45	So, man has sought immortality
	through works,

27:50	through every way to find
	that which is immortal,

27:58	that is, beyond mortality.

28:03	Right?

28:05	A: It's a very remarkable thing
	that the word 'immortal'

28:08	is a negative.
	K: Yes, not mortal.

28:10	A: Yes, it's not saying what it is.

28:17	K: We are going to find out what it is.
	A: Good.

28:21	K: You follow, sir?
	This is a very, very serious thing.

28:23	It isn't a plaything between
	two people enjoying a discussion,

28:27	It is tremendously important!

28:31	A: Yes, I was laughing
	at the irony of it.

28:36	That, inherent in the structure
	of that word,

28:40	there is a warning,

28:42	and we just go right
	through the red light.

28:44	K: Right.
	A: Yes, please do go on.

28:47	K: So, what is immortality?

28:52	Not the book.
	A: Oh no.

28:55	K: Not the painting
	which I have done,

28:57	not, going to the moon

28:59	and putting some
	idiotic flag up there.

29:03	Not, living a righteous life,

29:07	- or not living a righteous life.

29:09	So, what is immortality?

29:15	The cathedrals are beautiful,
	marvellous cathedrals,

29:20	in stone; an earthquake comes
	- gone.

29:25	You carve out of marble a
	marvellous thing of Michelangelo,

29:32	an earthquake, fire
	- destroyed.

29:35	Some lunatic comes along
	with a hammer and breaks it up.

29:40	So, it is in none of those.

29:45	Right?
	A: Right.

29:47	K: Because that is capable
	of being destroyed.

29:54	Every statue becomes
	a dead thing,

29:59	every poem, every painting.

30:03	So, then one asks,
	what is immortality?

30:06	It's not in the building
	- just see it, sir -

30:10	It's not in the cathedral.

30:12	It's not in the Saviour,
	which you have invented,

30:17	which thought has invented.

30:19	Not in the gods that man has
	created out of his own image.

30:25	Then what is immortality?

30:29	Because that is related to
	consciousness and to death.

30:37	Unless I find that out,
	death is a terror.

30:41	A: Of course, of course.

30:45	K: I have tried to immortalise
	myself,

30:48	become immortal by the thought

30:52	that there is a Brahman,
	there is a God,

30:54	there is eternality,
	there is a nameless one,

30:59	and I will do everything
	to approach him.

31:04	Therefore
	I'll lead a righteous life.

31:07	Therefore I will pray,
	I will beg, I will obey.

31:10	I will live a life of poverty,
	chastity,

31:15	and so on, so on, so on,

31:18	in order to have
	that immortal reality with me.

31:24	But I know all that
	is born of thought.

31:30	Right, sir? A: Yes, as soon as...
	K: Wait a minute, sir,

31:32	see what happens.

31:34	So I see
	thought and its products

31:38	are
	the children of barren women.

31:42	A: Precisely.

31:45	K: See what's taken place.
	Then what is immortality?

31:57	The beauty in the church
	- not I built the church -

32:03	the beauty in the cathedral,
	the beauty in the poem,

32:06	the beauty in the sculpture.

32:10	The beauty,
	not the object of beauty.

32:15	I wonder...

32:16	A: The beauty itself.
	K: Itself.

32:19	That is immortal.

32:22	And I cannot grasp that,
	the mind cannot grasp it,

32:28	because beauty is not in
	the field of consciousness.

32:39	A: You see, what you have said,
	again,

32:41	stands it all on its head.

32:44	We think when something dies

32:47	that we have cherished,
	that is beautiful,

32:49	that beauty dies, in some sense,

32:54	with that which has passed away.
	K: Passed away, yes.

33:00	A: Actually it's the feeling
	of being bereft of that beauty

33:08	that I regarded as my privilege
	to have personal access to.

33:14	The belief that that has perished,
	not simply being lost,

33:19	because what is lost
	is by its nature

33:25	predisposed to be found.

33:27	But to perish is to be
	wiped out utterly, isn't it?

33:32	And so the belief is deep.
	K: Oh, very, very.

33:36	A: Extremely deep with respect
	to what we mean by perish.

33:40	In fact, the word isn't used
	very often, it's frightening,

33:43	it's a very frightening word.

33:44	We always talk about
	losing things,

33:45	hardly ever do we say
	something perishes.

33:48	Now back to what I mentioned
	about standing it on its head.

33:53	The image came to my mind
	as a metaphor

34:00	- I hope not one of those images
	we've been talking about.

34:03	That beauty,

34:08	rather than being imprisoned
	and therefore taken down

34:14	to the utter depths of nullity,
	when the thing perishes,

34:19	has simply let it go.

34:24	In some sense beauty has let
	this expression go.

34:30	That is upside down from
	what is usually thought.

34:33	K: I know, I know.

34:35	A: And it has probably let it
	go precisely on time.

34:41	K: That's right.
	A: That's what's so marvellous.

34:44	Yes, yes.

34:45	K: So, immortality, we have said,

34:50	is within the field of time.

34:55	A: In the one field.

34:58	K: Right?
	A: Yes.

34:59	K: The field of time. A: Yes.

35:01	K: And death is also then
	in the field of time.

35:06	Because I have created,

35:10	through thought,
	the things of time.

35:15	And death is the ending

35:19	or the beginning
	of a state which is timeless.

35:25	Of that I am frightened.

35:29	So, I want everything
	preserved in the field of time.

35:39	You follow, sir?
	A: Yes, yes, we think it could...

35:42	K: And that is
	what we call immortal

35:46	- the statue, the poem,
	the church, the cathedral.

35:51	And I see also
	all that is corruptible,

35:55	destroyed by one accident,

36:01	or by an earthquake
	- everything is gone.

36:06	So, immortality is not
	within the field of time.

36:17	And time is thought
	- of course.

36:22	A: Of course, yes, that follows.
	K: Of course.

36:25	So,
	anything that thought creates

36:29	must be within the field of time.

36:36	And yet thought is trying
	to seek immortality,

36:40	which is, immortality of itself
	- and the things it has created.

36:50	You...
	A: Yes.

36:51	K: So, then the problem is,
	can the mind see all this,

37:02	- see it!
	Not imagine that it is seeing it.

37:07	A: No, actually see it.
	K: Actually see it.

37:13	A: Yes, the remark I made before,

37:16	when you began saying
	the field of time

37:18	and I said the one field,

37:21	I didn't mean
	that the field of time,

37:24	as you've described it,
	is the one field,

37:25	but that we could be
	so appallingly...

37:28	K: ...blind.
	A: ...mistaken and blind...

37:30	K: Ignorant.

37:31	A: ...that the field of time
	is another fragment and...

37:36	K: That's right.
	A: ...it's the only field.

37:38	And what really struck me was:

37:45	this misuse of thought

37:48	generates the most appalling
	avarice.

37:51	K: Yes, sir.

37:57	A: I'm walling myself up
	in stone.

38:02	Yes, please.

38:03	K: So,

38:09	the mind, perceiving all this,
	if it is alert,

38:13	if it has been watchful
	all the time

38:16	that we have been discussing,

38:19	must inevitably see

38:21	the whole content exposed,

38:27	without any effort.

38:29	It's like reading a map.

38:31	You spread it out and look.

38:35	But if you want to go
	in a direction,

38:38	then you don't look
	at the whole map.

38:43	Then you say, I want to go
	from here to there,

38:45	the direction is there,
	so many miles,

38:47	and...
	you don't look at the rest.

38:51	What we are asking is,
	no direction but just look.

38:58	Look at the content
	of your consciousness,

39:03	without direction,
	without choice.

39:09	Be aware of it

39:11	without
	any exertion of discernment.

39:18	Be choicelessly aware
	of this extraordinary map.

39:26	Then that choiceless awareness

39:29	gives you that tremendous energy

39:31	to go beyond it.

39:34	But you need energy
	to go beyond it.

39:39	A: This leads me

39:41	to the notion of reincarnation

39:46	that we began to touch
	on a little earlier:

39:49	I see the demonic root in that.
	K: Yes, sir.

39:54	You see, reincarnate next life.

39:59	Nobody says, incarnate now.
	A: Yes, exactly.

40:04	K: You follow, sir?
	A: Yes, I do, I do.

40:06	K: You can only incarnate now,
	when you die to the content.

40:13	You can be reborn,
	regenerated totally,

40:17	if you die to the content.

40:19	A: Yes. Yes. Yes.

40:23	And there is a terrible truth

40:29	on the dark side,
	the demonic side

40:32	to this
	doctrine of reincarnation,

40:36	because,
	if that content of consciousness

40:38	is not emptied out,

40:41	then it must prevail!
	K: So what happens?

40:45	A: Then it really does, yes!
	K: It prevails.

40:48	So what happens?

40:52	I do not know, as a human being,
	how to empty this thing.

40:57	I'm not even interested,
	I'm only frightened.

41:01	A: Only scared to death.
	K: Scared to death.

41:03	And I preserve something,

41:05	and I die, am burned,
	or buried under ground.

41:10	The content goes on.

41:15	As we said, the content of me
	is your content also,

41:22	it's not so very different.
	A: No, no, no.

41:27	K: Slightly modified,
	slightly exaggerated,

41:30	given certain tendencies,
	which depend on

41:33	your conditioning of environment,
	and so on, so on,

41:35	but it is essentially
	same consciousness.

41:41	Unless a human being
	empties that consciousness,

41:45	that consciousness goes on
	like a river,

41:51	collecting, accumulating
	- all that's going on.

41:55	And out of that river
	comes the expression

42:01	or the manifestation
	of the one that is lost.

42:06	When the mediums,
	seances, all those say

42:13	your brother, your uncle,
	your wife is here,

42:16	what has happened is they
	have manifested themselves

42:21	out of that stream which is
	the continuous consciousness

42:27	of struggle, pain, unhappiness,
	misery - all that.

42:36	And a man who has observed

42:41	and has looked at the
	consciousness, and empties it,

42:45	he doesn't belong to
	that stream at all.

42:52	Then he is living
	each moment anew,

42:58	because he is dying each moment.
	You understand, sir?

43:02	A: Oh yes, I do, yes, I do.

43:04	K: There is no accumulation
	of the me

43:07	which has to be expressed.

43:09	He is dying every minute,

43:13	living every minute,
	and dying every minute.

43:16	And therefore in that there is

43:20	- what shall I say? -
	there is no content.

43:22	You follow, sir?
	A: Yes.

43:26	K: It is like
	a tremendous energy in action.

43:30	A: This gives a totally different

43:33	understanding of what we mean by

43:39	the phrase 'in the afterlife'.

43:44	On the one hand, there is
	this continuity in disordered

43:51	content of consciousness...
	K: It is totally disordered.

43:53	A: ...which is not
	radically affected

43:59	qualitatively
	with respect to its nature,

44:01	simply because somebody has
	stopped breathing for good. No.

44:05	It's on its way.
	K: On its way.

44:07	A: And therefore

44:10	the attempt that is often made
	on the part of persons

44:19	to contact
	this stream of consciousness

44:22	after the death of a person,

44:24	when made within the same
	quality of consciousness,

44:31	attains nothing but
	a reinforcement...

44:34	K: Yes, that's right.
	A: ...within their own personal life.

44:37	And it does a terrible thing

44:38	to their content of consciousness

44:40	which has gone on,
	since it also feeds that some more.

44:44	K: That's right.

44:46	A: Yes, I do see that.

44:48	K: A person came to see me,
	and his wife was dead.

44:55	And he really thought
	he loved her.

44:59	So he said,
	I must see my wife again.

45:03	Can you help me?

45:05	I said,
	which wife do you want to see?

45:08	The one that cooked?

45:11	The one that bore the children?

45:13	The one that gave you sex?

45:16	The one that quarrelled
	with you?

45:19	The one that dominated you,
	frightened you?

45:25	He said, I don't want
	to meet any of those.

45:28	I want to meet the good of her.

45:35	You follow, sir?
	A: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

45:37	K: The image of the good
	he has built out of her.

45:43	None of the ugly things,

45:46	or what he considered ugly things,
	but the idea of the good

45:50	which he had culled out of her,

45:54	and that is the image
	he wants to meet.

45:56	I said, don't be infantile.

46:01	You are so utterly immature.

46:03	When you have slept with her,
	and got angry with her,

46:07	all that you don't want,
	you want just

46:09	the image which you have
	about her goodness.

46:12	I said... And you know,
	sir, he began to cry,

46:17	really cry for the first time.

46:19	He said afterwards,
	I have cried when she died,

46:24	but the tears were of self-pity,
	my loneliness, my sense of

46:32	- you follow? -
	lack of things.

46:34	Now
	I have cried because I see

46:38	what I have done.

46:40	You understand, sir?

46:43	A: Yes, I do.

46:50	K: So, to understand death
	there must be no fear.

46:57	The fear exists
	and the terror of it exists only

47:02	when the content
	is not understood.

47:07	And the content is the 'me'.

47:15	And the 'me' is the chair
	- you follow, sir?

47:19	A: Oh yes.
	K: The thing I am attached to.

47:22	It is so stupid!

47:25	And I am frightened of that,

47:29	the bank account,
	the family - you follow?

47:34	A: Oh yes, yes, I do.

47:36	K: So unless one is really,
	deeply serious in this matter,

47:44	you can't incarnate now

47:50	in the deep sense of that word,

47:52	and therefore immortality
	is in the book,

47:56	in the statue, in the cathedral,

47:58	in the things
	I have put together,

48:01	the things I have put together
	by thought.

48:05	That's all the field of time.
	A: Right.

48:08	It just occurred to me

48:11	what a terrible thing
	we have been doing

48:15	so often over and over
	again to Plato

48:21	by this perennial attempt at
	academic analysis of the text,

48:27	when he plainly said that the
	business of the philosopher,

48:32	by which he didn't mean
	the analyser in this mad way

48:36	that we have been
	observing it goes on,

48:40	the business of the philosopher,

48:42	namely
	the one who is concerned with

48:45	a radical change and rebirth,

48:48	which he associates
	with wisdom,

48:51	the business of the philosopher
	is to practise dying,

48:56	to practise dying.
	K: Not practice.

49:00	A: I don't think he meant
	routine, repetition:

49:04	die, die, die, die, die.

49:07	I think he puts it
	with an 'ing',

49:12	because he doesn't want
	to fall out of act.

49:18	I know I use this phrase
	all the time,

49:20	but it came to me early
	in our conversations,

49:22	and it seems to say, for me,
	what I want to say.

49:27	I have to say
	I learned it from you,

49:30	- though I don't want
	to put the words in your mouth.

49:33	But it's possible
	to fall out of act into the terror

49:42	and the demonic stream of time,

49:45	but when one is in act,

49:47	the whole thing
	is an ongoing move.

49:50	K: So, sir, time has a stop.
	A: Precisely.

49:54	K: See the beauty of it, sir.

49:56	And it is that beauty
	which is immortal,

50:00	not the things
	which thought has created.

50:04	A: Right.

50:07	K: So, living is dying.

50:12	A: Right.

50:13	K: And love is essentially
	dying to the me.

50:20	Not the things which thought
	has said: this is love,

50:28	love-sex, love-pleasure.
	You follow? All that.

50:31	A: Yes.

50:32	K: It is:
	the dying to time is love.

50:39	So, living, love, and death
	are one thing,

50:48	not divisive, not separated,
	not divorced,

50:51	not in the field of time,

50:54	but it is completely a living,
	moving thing, indivisible.

50:59	And that is immortal.
	A: Yes.

51:07	K: So,

51:10	Now, most of us are
	educated wrongly.

51:16	A: How true that is!

51:19	K: From childhood we are
	never taught to be serious.

51:26	From childhood we are taught
	the cultivation of thought,

51:35	cultivation of thought

51:37	and the expression
	and the marvels of thought.

51:43	All our philosophies, books,
	everything is based on that.

51:51	And when you say,
	die to all that,

51:57	you really awaken
	the terror of not knowing.

52:05	This,
	gives me security in knowing.

52:10	A: Yes.

52:11	K: Then knowledge becomes
	the field of my safety.

52:18	And you ask me, give all that up,
	die to all that.

52:23	And I say you are insane.

52:25	How can I die to that,
	that's part of me.

52:31	A: There's a very, very beautiful

52:36	Zen saying that seems
	to relate to this,

52:39	when it's understood correctly.

52:42	It speaks of jumping off
	the cliff with hands free.

52:46	Jumping off the cliff
	with hands free.

52:51	The hands...

52:53	K: ...that hold.
	A: ...that hold,

52:56	always grasping the past

52:59	or reaching out
	towards the future,

53:01	and we never get off
	that horizontal track.

53:04	It's like a Lionel train,
	it forever goes on.

53:08	K: So, then
	it comes to the question:

53:11	what is living in the present?

53:17	Death is the future.

53:21	And I've lived for 40 years,
	all the accumulated memories.

53:27	What is the present?

53:30	The present
	is the death of the content.

53:35	You follow, sir?
	A: Yes.

53:37	K: I don't know, it has
	got immense beauty in that.

53:42	Because that means no conflict

53:45	- you follow, sir? -
	no tomorrow.

53:51	If you tell a man who loves,

53:54	who is going to enjoy
	that man or woman tomorrow,

53:58	when you say there is
	no tomorrow, he says,

54:00	what are you talking about?

54:02	A: Yes, I know.
	Sometimes you will say,

54:04	when you have said something,
	it sounds absurd.

54:07	K: Of course.

54:08	A: And, of course, in relation to

54:11	the way we have been taught

54:12	to do analysis,
	it sounds absurd.

54:14	K: Therefore, sir, can we
	educate children, students,

54:21	to live totally differently?

54:28	Live and understand,
	and act with this sense of

54:34	understanding the content
	and the beauty of it all.

54:41	A: If I've understood you
	correctly,

54:43	there's only one answer
	to that question: yes, yes.

54:52	I think the word here
	wouldn't be 'absurd',

54:54	it would be something like
	'wild'.

54:58	Yes, I see now what you mean

55:03	about death and birth

55:08	as non-temporally related,

55:13	in terms of the question

55:14	that we raised about
	their relation earlier,

55:17	because when you say
	there is this incarnation...

55:21	K: ...now. A: ...now, upon the instant...
	K: Yes, sir.

55:24	A: ...then...

55:25	K: No,
	if you see the beauty of it, sir,

55:27	the thing takes place.
	A: Then it's happened.

55:31	K: It is not the result of mentation.
	A: No.

55:34	K: Not the result of immense
	thinking, thinking, thinking.

55:38	It is actual perception
	of 'what is'.

55:44	A: And the amazement that
	it is the same energy at root.

55:50	K: Yes, sir.

55:51	A: It doesn't take
	something over here

55:53	that's a different energy called
	God.

55:55	K: No, that's an outside agency
	brought in here.

55:58	A: No.
	K: It is the same wasted energy,

56:01	dissipated energy,
	which is no longer dissipated.

56:06	A: Exactly.
	K: Therefore it is...

56:08	A: Exactly.

56:10	This throws a totally...

56:15	I'm beginning now
	to use the words

56:17	'absolutely' and 'totally',
	which in the Academy, you know,

56:20	we're advised to be
	very careful of.

56:24	K: I know.

56:27	A: But I'm sorry about all that.

56:30	The fact remains
	that it is total.

56:34	It is total.
	K: Yes.

56:36	A: There is a total change.

56:39	And the transformation of
	each individual is a total one.

56:44	K: It is not within the field
	of time and knowledge.

56:47	A: Is not within the field
	of time and knowledge.

56:49	K: You see now the relation.

56:50	A: Yes, and then the profound
	seriousness of it that attends

56:55	when one sees the rest
	of that sentence of yours:

57:00	it is the responsibility of each.

57:06	And if I may add just
	one other thing here,

57:09	because it seems to me
	that it is coming together:

57:14	that it isn't
	the responsibility of one

57:16	over against the other
	to do something.

57:19	It is to come with and to,

57:24	as the other
	is coming to and with,

57:28	and we begin together...

57:30	K: Yes, sir. Share together.
	A: ...to have a look.

57:33	K: Learn together.
	A: Just quietly having a look.

57:36	And in that activity,
	which is not planned,

57:41	one of the amazing things
	about this conversation is

57:44	that it - to use your
	beautiful word - flowers.

57:50	K: It flowers, yes.
	A: It doesn't require

57:54	an imposition
	without of a contrivance.

57:59	K: No.

58:00	A: Of a management.
	K: Management, quite.

58:03	A: Somehow
	it grows out of itself.

58:07	It's this thing of
	growing out of itself

58:10	that relates to this thing

58:14	that you've been talking about
	in consciousness.

58:16	By pointing to the head
	I don't mean

58:17	consciousness is up here, no,

58:19	but it's the 'out of itself',

58:23	it's like that water
	that turns in on itself.

58:27	K: But it remains water.
	A: It remains water. Exactly.

58:31	This has been a
	wonderful revelation,

58:36	the whole thing about death,
	living and love.

58:41	I do hope, when we have
	our next conversation,

58:47	that we could begin

58:49	to pursue this in relation
	to education even further.

58:53	K: Further, yes, sir.