Krishnamurti Subtitles

Death, life and love are indivisible

San Diego - 26 February 1974

Conversation with A.W. Anderson 14



0:38 Krishnamurti in Dialogue
with Dr. Allan W. Anderson
  
0:43 J. Krishnamurti was
born in South India
  
0:46 and educated in England.
 
0:48 For the past 40 years
 
0:49 he has been speaking
in the United States,
  
0:52 Europe, India, Australia,
and other parts of the world.
  
0:56 From the outset of his life's work
 
0:58 he repudiated all connections
 
1:00 with organised
religions and ideologies
  
1:02 and said that his only concern
 
1:04 was to set man absolutely
unconditionally free.
  
1:09 He is the author of many books,
 
1:10 among them The Awakening
of Intelligence,
  
1:13 The Urgency of Change,
 
1:15 Freedom From the Known,
and The Flight of the Eagle.
  
1:20 This is one of a series
of dialogues between
  
1:23 Krishnamurti and Dr.
Allan W. Anderson,
  
1:25 who is professor of
religious studies
  
1:27 at San Diego State University
 
1:29 where he teaches Indian
and Chinese scriptures
  
1:32 and the oracular tradition.
 
1:34 Dr. Anderson, a published poet,
 
1:36 received his degree
from Columbia University
  
1:39 and the Union Theological Seminary.
 
1:41 He has been honoured with the
distinguished Teaching Award
  
1:45 from the California
State University.
  
1:49 A: Mr. Krishnamurti, in
our last conversation
  
1:53 we were beginning to talk about
consciousness
  
1:58 and its relation to death
in the context of living
  
2:03 as a total movement.
K: Yes.
  
2:06 A: And we even
 
2:07 touched on the word
'reincarnation' toward the end,
  
2:10 when we had to draw our
conversation to its conclusion.
  
2:15 I do hope that we can begin
to continue there.
  
2:21 K: You see,
one of the factors in death is
  
2:29 the mind is so frightened.
 
2:33 We are so frightened
of that very word
  
2:37 and nobody talks about it.
 
2:42 I mean
it isn't a daily conversation.
  
2:46 It is something to be avoided,
 
2:48 something that is inevitable,
 
2:50 for God's sake, keep it
as far away as possible.
  
2:54 A: We even paint corpses
to make them look
  
2:56 as if they are not dead.
K: That's the most absurd thing.
  
3:00 Now, what we are discussing,
sir, is, isn't it,
  
3:06 the understanding of death,
 
3:10 its relation to living,
 
3:14 and this thing called love.
 
3:19 One cannot possibly understand
the immensity
  
3:23 - and it is immense,
this thing called death -
  
3:29 unless there is
a real freedom from fear.
  
3:35 That's why we talked sometime ago
 
3:39 about the problem of fear.
 
3:42 Unless the mind frees itself
from fear,
  
3:50 there is no possibility
of understanding
  
3:53 the extraordinary beauty,
strength,
  
3:57 and the vitality of death.
 
4:02 A: That's a very, very
remarkable way to put it:
  
4:05 the vitality of death.
 
4:08 And yet, normally,
we regard it as the total
  
4:12 negation of life.
K: The negation of life.
  
4:14 That's right.
 
4:15 So, if we are enquiring
into this question of death,
  
4:21 fear must be completely
non-existent in us.
  
4:28 Then I can proceed.
 
4:29 Then I can find out
what death means.
  
4:35 We have touched a little bit
on reincarnation,
  
4:39 the belief that is maintained
throughout the East,
  
4:45 which has no reality
in daily life.
  
4:50 It is like going to church
every Sunday
  
4:53 and being mischievous
for the rest of the six days.
  
5:00 So - you follow? - a person
who is really serious,
  
5:04 really attentive,
goes into this question of death,
  
5:07 he must understand
what it means, the quality of it,
  
5:12 not the ending of it.
 
5:15 That's what we are going
to a little bit discuss.
  
5:21 The ancient Egyptians,
 
5:26 the pharaohs, and all the
 
5:29 first dynasty
till the 18th, and so on,
  
5:32 they prepared for death.
 
5:40 They said, we will cross that river
with all our goods,
  
5:45 with all our chariots,
with all our belongings,
  
5:48 with all our property,
 
5:51 and therefore their caves,
their tombs were filled
  
5:54 with all the things
of their daily life
  
5:57 - corn, you know all that.
 
6:00 So, living was only a
means to an ending, dying.
  
6:10 That's one way of looking at it.
 
6:14 The other is reincarnation,
 
6:17 which is the Indian,
Asiatic outlook.
  
6:21 And there is this whole idea
of resurrection,
  
6:24 of the Christians.
 
6:26 Reborn, carried by Gabriel Angel,etc.,
to heaven,
  
6:31 and you will be rewarded.
 
6:36 Now, what is the fact?
 
6:40 These are all theories,
 
6:41 suppositions,
beliefs, and non-facts.
  
6:47 I mean, supposed to be born,
Jesus comes out of the grave,
  
6:53 resurrected physically.
That is just a belief.
  
6:58 There were no cameras then,
 
7:02 there were no ten people
to say, yes, I saw it.
  
7:07 It is only somebody imagined.
 
7:13 We will go into that
a little bit later.
  
7:17 So, there is this living
and preparing for death
  
7:23 as the ancient Egyptians did.
 
7:26 Then there is the reincarnation.
 
7:28 Then there is resurrection.
 
7:30 Now, if one isn't frightened
- you follow, sir? - deeply,
  
7:37 then what is death?
 
7:40 What is it that dies,
apart from the organism?
  
7:46 The organism may continue,
 
7:49 if you look after it
very carefully,
  
7:51 for eighty, or ninety,
or one hundred years.
  
7:56 If you have no disease,
if you have no accidents,
  
7:59 if there is a way of living
sanely, healthily,
  
8:06 perhaps you will last one
hundred years or 110 years.
  
8:09 And then what?
 
8:13 You follow, sir?
 
8:14 You will live
one hundred years, for what?
  
8:18 For this kind of life?
 
8:21 Fighting, quarrelling,
bickering, bitterness,
  
8:25 anger, jealousy, futility,
a meaningless existence.
  
8:31 It is a meaningless existence
as we are living now.
  
8:36 A: And in terms of
our previous remarks,
  
8:38 this is all the content
 
8:39 of our consciousness.
K: Our consciousness. That's right.
  
8:44 So, what is it that dies?
 
8:47 And what is it
one is frightened of?
  
8:52 You follow? What is it,
one is frightened of in death?
  
8:56 Losing the known?
 
8:59 Losing my wife? Losing my house?
 
9:02 Losing all the things
I have acquired?
  
9:06 Losing this content
of consciousness?
  
9:11 You follow?
 
9:14 So, can the content of consciousness
be totally emptied?
  
9:27 You follow, sir?
 
9:28 A: Yes, I do.
K: Which is the living.
  
9:33 The dying is the living,
 
9:37 when the content
is totally emptied.
  
9:47 That means no attachment.
 
9:54 It isn't a brutal cutting off,
 
9:57 but the understanding
of attachment,
  
10:00 the understanding of dependency,
 
10:03 the understanding of acquisition,
 
10:06 power, position, anxiety - all that.
 
10:10 The emptying of that
is the real death.
  
10:18 And therefore
the emptying of consciousness
  
10:24 means the consciousness,
 
10:26 which has created
its own limitation
  
10:30 by its content, comes to an end.
 
10:33 I wonder if I have...
A: Yes, you have.
  
10:38 I was following you
very carefully,
  
10:44 and it occurred to me
that there is
  
10:51 a radical relation
between birth and death,
  
10:56 that the two,
 
10:59 when they are looked upon
as moments in a total cycle,
  
11:04 are not grasped
at the depth level
  
11:07 that you are beginning
to speak about.
  
11:09 K: Yes, sir.
A: Am I correct?
  
11:10 K: Correct.
A: Good, please do go on.
  
11:13 K: So, death becomes a living
 
11:20 when
the content of consciousness,
  
11:24 which makes its own frontier,
its own limitation,
  
11:28 comes to an end.
 
11:36 And this is not a theory,
 
11:38 not a speculative intellectual
grasp,
  
11:44 but the actual
perception of attachment.
  
11:49 I am taking that as an example.
 
11:52 Being attached to something
 
11:54 - property, man, woman,
the book I have written,
  
12:00 or the knowledge
I have acquired.
  
12:03 The attachment.
 
12:05 And the battle to be detached.
 
12:09 Because attachment brings pain.
 
12:12 Therefore I say to myself,
I must be detached.
  
12:15 And the battle begins.
 
12:19 And the whole content of
my consciousness is this
  
12:26 - the battle which we described
previously.
  
12:28 Now, can that content
be emptied - empty itself?
  
12:35 Not emptied
by an act of perception,
  
12:39 you understand?
- empty itself.
  
12:43 Which means: can this
whole content be observed
  
12:51 with its unconscious content?
 
12:55 You follow, sir?
A: Yes, I do. I'm thinking...
  
13:00 K: I can be consciously aware
 
13:02 of the content
of my consciousness
  
13:06 - my house, my property, my wife,
my children, my job,
  
13:11 the things I have acquired,
the things I have learned.
  
13:14 I can be consciously aware
of all that.
  
13:16 But also there is a deeper
 
13:19 content in the very recesses
of my mind,
  
13:26 which is racial,
collective, acquired,
  
13:35 the things that unconsciously
 
13:38 I have gathered, the influences,
the pressures, the strains
  
13:42 of living in a world
that is corrupt.
  
13:45 All that has seeped in,
all that has gathered in there.
  
13:50 A: Both personal and impersonal.
 
13:52 K: Impersonal, yes, that's right.
 
13:54 A: This includes then
 
13:56 what the depth psychologists
are calling
  
13:58 'collective unconscious'.
K: I don't know what they call it.
  
14:00 A: As well as
the personal consciousness.
  
14:03 K: Collective as well as...
So there is that.
  
14:06 Now, can all that be exposed?
 
14:11 Because this is very important.
 
14:14 If the mind really wants to understand,
grasp the full meaning of death,
  
14:24 the vastness of it, the great
quality of a mind that says,
  
14:28 yes, that's empty!
- you follow?
  
14:30 It gives a tremendous vitality,
energy.
  
14:35 So, my question is:
 
14:37 can the mind be aware totally
of all the content,
  
14:46 hidden as well as the open,
 
14:49 the collective,
the personal, the racial,
  
14:54 the transitory?
 
14:56 You follow? The whole of that.
 
15:00 Now, we say it is possible
through analysis.
  
15:07 A: Yes, we do.
 
15:08 K: I said analysis is paralysis.
 
15:13 Because every analysis
must be perfect, complete.
  
15:22 And you are frightened
that it might not be complete.
  
15:26 And if you have not completed it,
you carry it over
  
15:30 as a memory, which will then
analyse the next incident.
  
15:36 So each analysis brings
its own incompleteness.
  
15:41 A: Oh, certainly, yes.
K: Therefore it is a total paralysis.
  
15:48 A: In following what you are saying
 
15:50 I'm very taken with what
we usually regard as death,
  
15:58 which has a
 
16:00 very clear relationship to
what you've said about the
  
16:03 endless series of analytical acts.
K: Acts. Yes, sir.
  
16:07 A: We regard death as terminus
in terms of a line.
  
16:12 K: Quite,
because we think laterally.
  
16:15 A: We think laterally, exactly.
But what you're saying is:
  
16:19 on the contrary, we must
regard this vertically. K: Yes.
  
16:25 A: And in the regarding
of it vertically
  
16:29 we no longer see
 
16:31 - please check me
if I am off here -
  
16:33 we no longer see death
 
16:37 as simply a moment of termination
to a certain
  
16:47 trajectory of repetition.
 
16:51 But there is a total
qualitative change here,
  
16:58 which is not
the cessation of something
  
17:04 that we have to regret
 
17:07 as though we had lost
something valuable.
  
17:08 K: Yes, I am leaving
my wife and children. A: Right.
  
17:11 K: And my property, my
blasted bank account.
  
17:18 A: Yes, yes.
K: You see, sir,
  
17:21 if one can go very deeply
into this:
  
17:25 there is this content,
which is my consciousness,
  
17:32 acquired, inherited,
imposed, influenced,
  
17:37 propaganda, attachment,
detachment,
  
17:39 anxiety, fear, pleasure
- all that,
  
17:43 and also the hidden things.
 
17:46 I'm asking myself,
since analysis is really paralysis,
  
17:54 - not an intellectual supposition
 
17:56 but, actually,
it is not a complete act,
  
18:01 analysis can never produce
a complete act.
  
18:05 The very word 'analysis' means
 
18:07 to break up,
you know, the breaking up.
  
18:11 A: To loosen up.
K: Loosen up, break it up.
  
18:13 Therefore I reject that totally.
 
18:19 I won't analyse, because I see
 
18:22 the stupidity,
the paralytic process of it.
  
18:28 Then what am I to do?
You are following?
  
18:31 Because that's the tradition,
introspective,
  
18:37 or analysis by myself
or by a professional,
  
18:46 which is now the fashion,
and so on, so on, so on.
  
18:49 So if the mind
sees the truth of it,
  
18:53 and therefore
analysis falls away,
  
18:56 then what is the mind
to do with the content?
  
19:01 You...
 
19:04 A: Yes, I do see that.
 
19:07 K: We know what the content is.
 
19:09 We don't have to
eternally describe.
  
19:12 Now, what is it to do?
It has to be emptied.
  
19:18 Otherwise
it is mere continuity.
  
19:21 A: No, there is no use analysing
what is already there,
  
19:25 because that will not change
 
19:27 what is there in any way,
shape or form.
  
19:30 That seems to be very,
very plain.
  
19:36 Perhaps you would
for a moment explain
  
19:45 why
we simply refuse to see that.
  
19:51 We do believe
that an analytical enquiry
  
19:55 is ordered to a revelation.
We do believe that. K: No, sir.
  
19:59 You can see it in a minute.
 
20:00 Analysis implies the analyser
and the analysed. A: Yes.
  
20:06 K: The analyser is the analysed.
 
20:12 A: Yes, we are back to
the observer and the observed.
  
20:15 K: Obviously!
I am analysing my anger.
  
20:17 Who is the analyser?
 
20:19 Part of the fragment,
which is anger.
  
20:25 So, the analyser
pretends to be different
  
20:30 from the analysed.
 
20:32 But when I see the truth that
the analyser is the analysed,
  
20:37 then a totally different
action takes place.
  
20:42 Then there is no conflict
 
20:43 between the analyser
and the analysed.
  
20:45 There is instant action,
a perception,
  
20:49 which is the ending
and going beyond the 'what is'.
  
20:54 A: The reason I asked for
the explanation was because
  
20:58 of the concern raised earlier
about knowledge.
  
21:01 K: Yes. After all,
the observer is knowledge.
  
21:06 A: Yes, I was concerned that
 
21:12 study, in its proper form
 
21:16 was not regarded - in the
context of our discussion -
  
21:22 as unprofitable as such.
K: No, no, of course not.
  
21:24 A: We don't mean that.
K: We didn't even discuss it.
  
21:27 That's so obvious.
A: Exactly. Yes, fine, do go.
  
21:29 Well, yes, it is obvious
in terms of our discussion,
  
21:33 but the thing
that concerns me is that
  
21:35 so ingrained is the notion that...
 
21:39 For instance, in the
story I told you about,
  
21:42 when I came to hear you
years ago,
  
21:44 I began doing analysis
while I was listening to your words,
  
21:49 and consequently I could
hardly end up with anything
  
21:53 qualitatively different
from what I came in with.
  
21:57 But you see,
I didn't see that at the time.
  
22:00 And in our videotaping
our conversations here,
  
22:04 this will be listened to,
 
22:06 and when we say 'yes' about
knowledge, this is obvious
  
22:10 - in the context of our conversation
it is.
  
22:12 But then I'm thinking of...
 
22:14 K: Not only in the context
of our conversation,...
  
22:16 ...it is so.
A: It is as such.
  
22:18 K: Life is that.
A: Exactly, I couldn't agree,
  
22:21 but immediately I flashed back
 
22:23 to my own behaviour,
 
22:26 and I know that
I was not alone in that,
  
22:31 because I listened
to other conversations
  
22:33 regarding it at the time.
 
22:35 But, yes, I see what you mean
now about analysis as such.
  
22:40 It seems to me very clear.
K: Analysis implies, sir,
  
22:42 the analyser and the analysed.
 
22:44 A: Precisely.
K: The analyser is the analysed.
  
22:47 And also analysis
implies time, duration.
  
22:50 I must take time to unearth,
to uncover,
  
22:57 and it will take me
rest of my life.
  
23:00 A: This is a confusion
we have about death too,
  
23:03 death's relation to time.
 
23:04 K: That's right. I'm coming to that.
 
23:06 A: Yes, of course,
yes, please do, please.
  
23:09 K: So, the mind, perceiving,
discards analysis completely.
  
23:17 Not because it's not profitable,
 
23:22 not because it doesn't get me
where I want,
  
23:25 but I see the impossibility
 
23:29 of emptying the consciousness
of its content,
  
23:33 if the mind approaches
through that channel:
  
23:40 analyser, time,
and the utter futility
  
23:45 - at the end of 40 years
I am still analysing.
  
23:50 A: And the content
of my consciousness
  
23:52 has not qualitatively changed
at all. K: Changed at all.
  
23:54 A: No, it's becoming intensified
in its corruption.
  
23:58 K: That's right. That's right.
 
24:02 But the mind
must see its content,
  
24:07 must be totally aware of it,
not fragments of it.
  
24:14 How is that to be done?
 
24:17 You follow, sir?
A: Yes, I do.
  
24:19 K: Because that's very important
in relation to death.
  
24:25 Because the content of my
consciousness is consciousness.
  
24:32 That consciousness is me,
 
24:35 my ego, my saying,
'I and you, we and they',
  
24:45 whether they the communists,
they the Catholics,
  
24:48 they the Protestants,
or they the Hindus - they and we.
  
24:54 So,
it is very important to find out
  
24:59 whether it is possible
to empty consciousness
  
25:03 of its content.
 
25:04 Which means the dying to the me.
 
25:12 You follow?
 
25:14 A: Yes, I do.
K: Because that is the me.
  
25:19 A: This is
where the terror starts.
  
25:21 K: That's where the terror starts.
 
25:22 A: Precisely.
There's the intuition that, if I die
  
25:25 to the content of this consciousness,
that I am wiped out.
  
25:29 K: Yes.
 
25:31 I, who have worked,
 
25:34 who have lived a righteous life
- or unrighteous life -
  
25:37 who have done so much,
mischief or good,
  
25:43 I have struggled
to better myself,
  
25:47 I've been so kind, so gentle,
 
25:49 so angry, so bitter
- you follow? -
  
25:52 and when you say
empty your consciousness,
  
25:57 it means you are asking me
to die to all that!
  
26:01 So, you are touching
at the very root of fear.
  
26:10 A: Yes, exactly. K: At the root
of terror of not being.
  
26:20 Oh yes, that's it, sir.
 
26:23 And
I want to immortalise that me.
  
26:32 I do it through books,
 
26:35 writing a book, and say,
famous book.
  
26:39 Or I paint.
 
26:43 Or through paint, through works,
through good acts,
  
26:47 through building this or that,
I immortalise myself.
  
26:55 A: This has very pernicious effects
within the family,
  
26:59 because we must have a son
in order to...
  
27:03 K: ...carry on.
A: ...immortalise the name in time.
  
27:06 K: Therefore the family
becomes a danger. A: Exactly.
  
27:15 K: So,
look what we have done, sir:
  
27:18 the ancient Egyptians
immortalised themselves,
  
27:23 made their life immortal
by thinking, carrying on.
  
27:27 A: Perpetuity.
K: Perpetuity.
  
27:31 And the robbers
come and tear it all to pieces.
  
27:37 Tutankhamen
is merely a mask now,
  
27:41 a golden mask with a mummy,
and so on.
  
27:45 So, man has sought immortality
through works,
  
27:50 through every way to find
that which is immortal,
  
27:58 that is, beyond mortality.
 
28:03 Right?
 
28:05 A: It's a very remarkable thing
that the word 'immortal'
  
28:08 is a negative.
K: Yes, not mortal.
  
28:10 A: Yes, it's not saying what it is.
 
28:17 K: We are going to find out what it is.
A: Good.
  
28:21 K: You follow, sir?
This is a very, very serious thing.
  
28:23 It isn't a plaything between
two people enjoying a discussion,
  
28:27 It is tremendously important!
 
28:31 A: Yes, I was laughing
at the irony of it.
  
28:36 That, inherent in the structure
of that word,
  
28:40 there is a warning,
 
28:42 and we just go right
through the red light.
  
28:44 K: Right.
A: Yes, please do go on.
  
28:47 K: So, what is immortality?
 
28:52 Not the book.
A: Oh no.
  
28:55 K: Not the painting
which I have done,
  
28:57 not, going to the moon
 
28:59 and putting some
idiotic flag up there.
  
29:03 Not, living a righteous life,
 
29:07 - or not living a righteous life.
 
29:09 So, what is immortality?
 
29:15 The cathedrals are beautiful,
marvellous cathedrals,
  
29:20 in stone; an earthquake comes
- gone.
  
29:25 You carve out of marble a
marvellous thing of Michelangelo,
  
29:32 an earthquake, fire
- destroyed.
  
29:35 Some lunatic comes along
with a hammer and breaks it up.
  
29:40 So, it is in none of those.
 
29:45 Right?
A: Right.
  
29:47 K: Because that is capable
of being destroyed.
  
29:54 Every statue becomes
a dead thing,
  
29:59 every poem, every painting.
 
30:03 So, then one asks,
what is immortality?
  
30:06 It's not in the building
- just see it, sir -
  
30:10 It's not in the cathedral.
 
30:12 It's not in the Saviour,
which you have invented,
  
30:17 which thought has invented.
 
30:19 Not in the gods that man has
created out of his own image.
  
30:25 Then what is immortality?
 
30:29 Because that is related to
consciousness and to death.
  
30:37 Unless I find that out,
death is a terror.
  
30:41 A: Of course, of course.
 
30:45 K: I have tried to immortalise
myself,
  
30:48 become immortal by the thought
 
30:52 that there is a Brahman,
there is a God,
  
30:54 there is eternality,
there is a nameless one,
  
30:59 and I will do everything
to approach him.
  
31:04 Therefore
I'll lead a righteous life.
  
31:07 Therefore I will pray,
I will beg, I will obey.
  
31:10 I will live a life of poverty,
chastity,
  
31:15 and so on, so on, so on,
 
31:18 in order to have
that immortal reality with me.
  
31:24 But I know all that
is born of thought.
  
31:30 Right, sir? A: Yes, as soon as...
K: Wait a minute, sir,
  
31:32 see what happens.
 
31:34 So I see
thought and its products
  
31:38 are
the children of barren women.
  
31:42 A: Precisely.
 
31:45 K: See what's taken place.
Then what is immortality?
  
31:57 The beauty in the church
- not I built the church -
  
32:03 the beauty in the cathedral,
the beauty in the poem,
  
32:06 the beauty in the sculpture.
 
32:10 The beauty,
not the object of beauty.
  
32:15 I wonder...
 
32:16 A: The beauty itself.
K: Itself.
  
32:19 That is immortal.
 
32:22 And I cannot grasp that,
the mind cannot grasp it,
  
32:28 because beauty is not in
the field of consciousness.
  
32:39 A: You see, what you have said,
again,
  
32:41 stands it all on its head.
 
32:44 We think when something dies
 
32:47 that we have cherished,
that is beautiful,
  
32:49 that beauty dies, in some sense,
 
32:54 with that which has passed away.
K: Passed away, yes.
  
33:00 A: Actually it's the feeling
of being bereft of that beauty
  
33:08 that I regarded as my privilege
to have personal access to.
  
33:14 The belief that that has perished,
not simply being lost,
  
33:19 because what is lost
is by its nature
  
33:25 predisposed to be found.
 
33:27 But to perish is to be
wiped out utterly, isn't it?
  
33:32 And so the belief is deep.
K: Oh, very, very.
  
33:36 A: Extremely deep with respect
to what we mean by perish.
  
33:40 In fact, the word isn't used
very often, it's frightening,
  
33:43 it's a very frightening word.
 
33:44 We always talk about
losing things,
  
33:45 hardly ever do we say
something perishes.
  
33:48 Now back to what I mentioned
about standing it on its head.
  
33:53 The image came to my mind
as a metaphor
  
34:00 - I hope not one of those images
we've been talking about.
  
34:03 That beauty,
 
34:08 rather than being imprisoned
and therefore taken down
  
34:14 to the utter depths of nullity,
when the thing perishes,
  
34:19 has simply let it go.
 
34:24 In some sense beauty has let
this expression go.
  
34:30 That is upside down from
what is usually thought.
  
34:33 K: I know, I know.
 
34:35 A: And it has probably let it
go precisely on time.
  
34:41 K: That's right.
A: That's what's so marvellous.
  
34:44 Yes, yes.
 
34:45 K: So, immortality, we have said,
 
34:50 is within the field of time.
 
34:55 A: In the one field.
 
34:58 K: Right?
A: Yes.
  
34:59 K: The field of time. A: Yes.
 
35:01 K: And death is also then
in the field of time.
  
35:06 Because I have created,
 
35:10 through thought,
the things of time.
  
35:15 And death is the ending
 
35:19 or the beginning
of a state which is timeless.
  
35:25 Of that I am frightened.
 
35:29 So, I want everything
preserved in the field of time.
  
35:39 You follow, sir?
A: Yes, yes, we think it could...
  
35:42 K: And that is
what we call immortal
  
35:46 - the statue, the poem,
the church, the cathedral.
  
35:51 And I see also
all that is corruptible,
  
35:55 destroyed by one accident,
 
36:01 or by an earthquake
- everything is gone.
  
36:06 So, immortality is not
within the field of time.
  
36:17 And time is thought
- of course.
  
36:22 A: Of course, yes, that follows.
K: Of course.
  
36:25 So,
anything that thought creates
  
36:29 must be within the field of time.
 
36:36 And yet thought is trying
to seek immortality,
  
36:40 which is, immortality of itself
- and the things it has created.
  
36:50 You...
A: Yes.
  
36:51 K: So, then the problem is,
can the mind see all this,
  
37:02 - see it!
Not imagine that it is seeing it.
  
37:07 A: No, actually see it.
K: Actually see it.
  
37:13 A: Yes, the remark I made before,
 
37:16 when you began saying
the field of time
  
37:18 and I said the one field,
 
37:21 I didn't mean
that the field of time,
  
37:24 as you've described it,
is the one field,
  
37:25 but that we could be
so appallingly...
  
37:28 K: ...blind.
A: ...mistaken and blind...
  
37:30 K: Ignorant.
 
37:31 A: ...that the field of time
is another fragment and...
  
37:36 K: That's right.
A: ...it's the only field.
  
37:38 And what really struck me was:
 
37:45 this misuse of thought
 
37:48 generates the most appalling
avarice.
  
37:51 K: Yes, sir.
 
37:57 A: I'm walling myself up
in stone.
  
38:02 Yes, please.
 
38:03 K: So,
 
38:09 the mind, perceiving all this,
if it is alert,
  
38:13 if it has been watchful
all the time
  
38:16 that we have been discussing,
 
38:19 must inevitably see
 
38:21 the whole content exposed,
 
38:27 without any effort.
 
38:29 It's like reading a map.
 
38:31 You spread it out and look.
 
38:35 But if you want to go
in a direction,
  
38:38 then you don't look
at the whole map.
  
38:43 Then you say, I want to go
from here to there,
  
38:45 the direction is there,
so many miles,
  
38:47 and...
you don't look at the rest.
  
38:51 What we are asking is,
no direction but just look.
  
38:58 Look at the content
of your consciousness,
  
39:03 without direction,
without choice.
  
39:09 Be aware of it
 
39:11 without
any exertion of discernment.
  
39:18 Be choicelessly aware
of this extraordinary map.
  
39:26 Then that choiceless awareness
 
39:29 gives you that tremendous energy
 
39:31 to go beyond it.
 
39:34 But you need energy
to go beyond it.
  
39:39 A: This leads me
 
39:41 to the notion of reincarnation
 
39:46 that we began to touch
on a little earlier:
  
39:49 I see the demonic root in that.
K: Yes, sir.
  
39:54 You see, reincarnate next life.
 
39:59 Nobody says, incarnate now.
A: Yes, exactly.
  
40:04 K: You follow, sir?
A: Yes, I do, I do.
  
40:06 K: You can only incarnate now,
when you die to the content.
  
40:13 You can be reborn,
regenerated totally,
  
40:17 if you die to the content.
 
40:19 A: Yes. Yes. Yes.
 
40:23 And there is a terrible truth
 
40:29 on the dark side,
the demonic side
  
40:32 to this
doctrine of reincarnation,
  
40:36 because,
if that content of consciousness
  
40:38 is not emptied out,
 
40:41 then it must prevail!
K: So what happens?
  
40:45 A: Then it really does, yes!
K: It prevails.
  
40:48 So what happens?
 
40:52 I do not know, as a human being,
how to empty this thing.
  
40:57 I'm not even interested,
I'm only frightened.
  
41:01 A: Only scared to death.
K: Scared to death.
  
41:03 And I preserve something,
 
41:05 and I die, am burned,
or buried under ground.
  
41:10 The content goes on.
 
41:15 As we said, the content of me
is your content also,
  
41:22 it's not so very different.
A: No, no, no.
  
41:27 K: Slightly modified,
slightly exaggerated,
  
41:30 given certain tendencies,
which depend on
  
41:33 your conditioning of environment,
and so on, so on,
  
41:35 but it is essentially
same consciousness.
  
41:41 Unless a human being
empties that consciousness,
  
41:45 that consciousness goes on
like a river,
  
41:51 collecting, accumulating
- all that's going on.
  
41:55 And out of that river
comes the expression
  
42:01 or the manifestation
of the one that is lost.
  
42:06 When the mediums,
seances, all those say
  
42:13 your brother, your uncle,
your wife is here,
  
42:16 what has happened is they
have manifested themselves
  
42:21 out of that stream which is
the continuous consciousness
  
42:27 of struggle, pain, unhappiness,
misery - all that.
  
42:36 And a man who has observed
 
42:41 and has looked at the
consciousness, and empties it,
  
42:45 he doesn't belong to
that stream at all.
  
42:52 Then he is living
each moment anew,
  
42:58 because he is dying each moment.
You understand, sir?
  
43:02 A: Oh yes, I do, yes, I do.
 
43:04 K: There is no accumulation
of the me
  
43:07 which has to be expressed.
 
43:09 He is dying every minute,
 
43:13 living every minute,
and dying every minute.
  
43:16 And therefore in that there is
 
43:20 - what shall I say? -
there is no content.
  
43:22 You follow, sir?
A: Yes.
  
43:26 K: It is like
a tremendous energy in action.
  
43:30 A: This gives a totally different
 
43:33 understanding of what we mean by
 
43:39 the phrase 'in the afterlife'.
 
43:44 On the one hand, there is
this continuity in disordered
  
43:51 content of consciousness...
K: It is totally disordered.
  
43:53 A: ...which is not
radically affected
  
43:59 qualitatively
with respect to its nature,
  
44:01 simply because somebody has
stopped breathing for good. No.
  
44:05 It's on its way.
K: On its way.
  
44:07 A: And therefore
 
44:10 the attempt that is often made
on the part of persons
  
44:19 to contact
this stream of consciousness
  
44:22 after the death of a person,
 
44:24 when made within the same
quality of consciousness,
  
44:31 attains nothing but
a reinforcement...
  
44:34 K: Yes, that's right.
A: ...within their own personal life.
  
44:37 And it does a terrible thing
 
44:38 to their content of consciousness
 
44:40 which has gone on,
since it also feeds that some more.
  
44:44 K: That's right.
 
44:46 A: Yes, I do see that.
 
44:48 K: A person came to see me,
and his wife was dead.
  
44:55 And he really thought
he loved her.
  
44:59 So he said,
I must see my wife again.
  
45:03 Can you help me?
 
45:05 I said,
which wife do you want to see?
  
45:08 The one that cooked?
 
45:11 The one that bore the children?
 
45:13 The one that gave you sex?
 
45:16 The one that quarrelled
with you?
  
45:19 The one that dominated you,
frightened you?
  
45:25 He said, I don't want
to meet any of those.
  
45:28 I want to meet the good of her.
 
45:35 You follow, sir?
A: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
  
45:37 K: The image of the good
he has built out of her.
  
45:43 None of the ugly things,
 
45:46 or what he considered ugly things,
but the idea of the good
  
45:50 which he had culled out of her,
 
45:54 and that is the image
he wants to meet.
  
45:56 I said, don't be infantile.
 
46:01 You are so utterly immature.
 
46:03 When you have slept with her,
and got angry with her,
  
46:07 all that you don't want,
you want just
  
46:09 the image which you have
about her goodness.
  
46:12 I said... And you know,
sir, he began to cry,
  
46:17 really cry for the first time.
 
46:19 He said afterwards,
I have cried when she died,
  
46:24 but the tears were of self-pity,
my loneliness, my sense of
  
46:32 - you follow? -
lack of things.
  
46:34 Now
I have cried because I see
  
46:38 what I have done.
 
46:40 You understand, sir?
 
46:43 A: Yes, I do.
 
46:50 K: So, to understand death
there must be no fear.
  
46:57 The fear exists
and the terror of it exists only
  
47:02 when the content
is not understood.
  
47:07 And the content is the 'me'.
 
47:15 And the 'me' is the chair
- you follow, sir?
  
47:19 A: Oh yes.
K: The thing I am attached to.
  
47:22 It is so stupid!
 
47:25 And I am frightened of that,
 
47:29 the bank account,
the family - you follow?
  
47:34 A: Oh yes, yes, I do.
 
47:36 K: So unless one is really,
deeply serious in this matter,
  
47:44 you can't incarnate now
 
47:50 in the deep sense of that word,
 
47:52 and therefore immortality
is in the book,
  
47:56 in the statue, in the cathedral,
 
47:58 in the things
I have put together,
  
48:01 the things I have put together
by thought.
  
48:05 That's all the field of time.
A: Right.
  
48:08 It just occurred to me
 
48:11 what a terrible thing
we have been doing
  
48:15 so often over and over
again to Plato
  
48:21 by this perennial attempt at
academic analysis of the text,
  
48:27 when he plainly said that the
business of the philosopher,
  
48:32 by which he didn't mean
the analyser in this mad way
  
48:36 that we have been
observing it goes on,
  
48:40 the business of the philosopher,
 
48:42 namely
the one who is concerned with
  
48:45 a radical change and rebirth,
 
48:48 which he associates
with wisdom,
  
48:51 the business of the philosopher
is to practise dying,
  
48:56 to practise dying.
K: Not practice.
  
49:00 A: I don't think he meant
routine, repetition:
  
49:04 die, die, die, die, die.
 
49:07 I think he puts it
with an 'ing',
  
49:12 because he doesn't want
to fall out of act.
  
49:18 I know I use this phrase
all the time,
  
49:20 but it came to me early
in our conversations,
  
49:22 and it seems to say, for me,
what I want to say.
  
49:27 I have to say
I learned it from you,
  
49:30 - though I don't want
to put the words in your mouth.
  
49:33 But it's possible
to fall out of act into the terror
  
49:42 and the demonic stream of time,
 
49:45 but when one is in act,
 
49:47 the whole thing
is an ongoing move.
  
49:50 K: So, sir, time has a stop.
A: Precisely.
  
49:54 K: See the beauty of it, sir.
 
49:56 And it is that beauty
which is immortal,
  
50:00 not the things
which thought has created.
  
50:04 A: Right.
 
50:07 K: So, living is dying.
 
50:12 A: Right.
 
50:13 K: And love is essentially
dying to the me.
  
50:20 Not the things which thought
has said: this is love,
  
50:28 love-sex, love-pleasure.
You follow? All that.
  
50:31 A: Yes.
 
50:32 K: It is:
the dying to time is love.
  
50:39 So, living, love, and death
are one thing,
  
50:48 not divisive, not separated,
not divorced,
  
50:51 not in the field of time,
 
50:54 but it is completely a living,
moving thing, indivisible.
  
50:59 And that is immortal.
A: Yes.
  
51:07 K: So,
 
51:10 Now, most of us are
educated wrongly.
  
51:16 A: How true that is!
 
51:19 K: From childhood we are
never taught to be serious.
  
51:26 From childhood we are taught
the cultivation of thought,
  
51:35 cultivation of thought
 
51:37 and the expression
and the marvels of thought.
  
51:43 All our philosophies, books,
everything is based on that.
  
51:51 And when you say,
die to all that,
  
51:57 you really awaken
the terror of not knowing.
  
52:05 This,
gives me security in knowing.
  
52:10 A: Yes.
 
52:11 K: Then knowledge becomes
the field of my safety.
  
52:18 And you ask me, give all that up,
die to all that.
  
52:23 And I say you are insane.
 
52:25 How can I die to that,
that's part of me.
  
52:31 A: There's a very, very beautiful
 
52:36 Zen saying that seems
to relate to this,
  
52:39 when it's understood correctly.
 
52:42 It speaks of jumping off
the cliff with hands free.
  
52:46 Jumping off the cliff
with hands free.
  
52:51 The hands...
 
52:53 K: ...that hold.
A: ...that hold,
  
52:56 always grasping the past
 
52:59 or reaching out
towards the future,
  
53:01 and we never get off
that horizontal track.
  
53:04 It's like a Lionel train,
it forever goes on.
  
53:08 K: So, then
it comes to the question:
  
53:11 what is living in the present?
 
53:17 Death is the future.
 
53:21 And I've lived for 40 years,
all the accumulated memories.
  
53:27 What is the present?
 
53:30 The present
is the death of the content.
  
53:35 You follow, sir?
A: Yes.
  
53:37 K: I don't know, it has
got immense beauty in that.
  
53:42 Because that means no conflict
 
53:45 - you follow, sir? -
no tomorrow.
  
53:51 If you tell a man who loves,
 
53:54 who is going to enjoy
that man or woman tomorrow,
  
53:58 when you say there is
no tomorrow, he says,
  
54:00 what are you talking about?
 
54:02 A: Yes, I know.
Sometimes you will say,
  
54:04 when you have said something,
it sounds absurd.
  
54:07 K: Of course.
 
54:08 A: And, of course, in relation to
 
54:11 the way we have been taught
 
54:12 to do analysis,
it sounds absurd.
  
54:14 K: Therefore, sir, can we
educate children, students,
  
54:21 to live totally differently?
 
54:28 Live and understand,
and act with this sense of
  
54:34 understanding the content
and the beauty of it all.
  
54:41 A: If I've understood you
correctly,
  
54:43 there's only one answer
to that question: yes, yes.
  
54:52 I think the word here
wouldn't be 'absurd',
  
54:54 it would be something like
'wild'.
  
54:58 Yes, I see now what you mean
 
55:03 about death and birth
 
55:08 as non-temporally related,
 
55:13 in terms of the question
 
55:14 that we raised about
their relation earlier,
  
55:17 because when you say
there is this incarnation...
  
55:21 K: ...now. A: ...now, upon the instant...
K: Yes, sir.
  
55:24 A: ...then...
 
55:25 K: No,
if you see the beauty of it, sir,
  
55:27 the thing takes place.
A: Then it's happened.
  
55:31 K: It is not the result of mentation.
A: No.
  
55:34 K: Not the result of immense
thinking, thinking, thinking.
  
55:38 It is actual perception
of 'what is'.
  
55:44 A: And the amazement that
it is the same energy at root.
  
55:50 K: Yes, sir.
 
55:51 A: It doesn't take
something over here
  
55:53 that's a different energy called
God.
  
55:55 K: No, that's an outside agency
brought in here.
  
55:58 A: No.
K: It is the same wasted energy,
  
56:01 dissipated energy,
which is no longer dissipated.
  
56:06 A: Exactly.
K: Therefore it is...
  
56:08 A: Exactly.
 
56:10 This throws a totally...
 
56:15 I'm beginning now
to use the words
  
56:17 'absolutely' and 'totally',
which in the Academy, you know,
  
56:20 we're advised to be
very careful of.
  
56:24 K: I know.
 
56:27 A: But I'm sorry about all that.
 
56:30 The fact remains
that it is total.
  
56:34 It is total.
K: Yes.
  
56:36 A: There is a total change.
 
56:39 And the transformation of
each individual is a total one.
  
56:44 K: It is not within the field
of time and knowledge.
  
56:47 A: Is not within the field
of time and knowledge.
  
56:49 K: You see now the relation.
 
56:50 A: Yes, and then the profound
seriousness of it that attends
  
56:55 when one sees the rest
of that sentence of yours:
  
57:00 it is the responsibility of each.
 
57:06 And if I may add just
one other thing here,
  
57:09 because it seems to me
that it is coming together:
  
57:14 that it isn't
the responsibility of one
  
57:16 over against the other
to do something.
  
57:19 It is to come with and to,
 
57:24 as the other
is coming to and with,
  
57:28 and we begin together...
 
57:30 K: Yes, sir. Share together.
A: ...to have a look.
  
57:33 K: Learn together.
A: Just quietly having a look.
  
57:36 And in that activity,
which is not planned,
  
57:41 one of the amazing things
about this conversation is
  
57:44 that it - to use your
beautiful word - flowers.
  
57:50 K: It flowers, yes.
A: It doesn't require
  
57:54 an imposition
without of a contrivance.
  
57:59 K: No.
 
58:00 A: Of a management.
K: Management, quite.
  
58:03 A: Somehow
it grows out of itself.
  
58:07 It's this thing of
growing out of itself
  
58:10 that relates to this thing
 
58:14 that you've been talking about
in consciousness.
  
58:16 By pointing to the head
I don't mean
  
58:17 consciousness is up here, no,
 
58:19 but it's the 'out of itself',
 
58:23 it's like that water
that turns in on itself.
  
58:27 K: But it remains water.
A: It remains water. Exactly.
  
58:31 This has been a
wonderful revelation,
  
58:36 the whole thing about death,
living and love.
  
58:41 I do hope, when we have
our next conversation,
  
58:47 that we could begin
 
58:49 to pursue this in relation
to education even further.
  
58:53 K: Further, yes, sir.