Krishnamurti Subtitles

Death, life and love are indivisible

San Diego - 26 February 1974

Conversation with A.W. Anderson 14

0:38 Krishnamurti in Dialogue
with Dr. Allan W. Anderson
0:43 J. Krishnamurti was
born in South India
0:46 and educated in England.
0:48 For the past 40 years
0:49 he has been speaking
in the United States,
0:52 Europe, India, Australia,
and other parts of the world.
0:56 From the outset of his life's work
0:58 he repudiated all connections
1:00 with organised
religions and ideologies
1:02 and said that his only concern
1:04 was to set man absolutely
unconditionally free.
1:09 He is the author of many books,
1:10 among them The Awakening
of Intelligence,
1:13 The Urgency of Change,
1:15 Freedom From the Known,
and The Flight of the Eagle.
1:20 This is one of a series
of dialogues between
1:23 Krishnamurti and Dr.
Allan W. Anderson,
1:25 who is professor of
religious studies
1:27 at San Diego State University
1:29 where he teaches Indian
and Chinese scriptures
1:32 and the oracular tradition.
1:34 Dr. Anderson, a published poet,
1:36 received his degree
from Columbia University
1:39 and the Union Theological Seminary.
1:41 He has been honoured with the
distinguished Teaching Award
1:45 from the California
State University.
1:49 A: Mr. Krishnamurti, in
our last conversation
1:53 we were beginning to talk about
1:58 and its relation to death
in the context of living
2:03 as a total movement.
K: Yes.
2:06 A: And we even
2:07 touched on the word
'reincarnation' toward the end,
2:10 when we had to draw our
conversation to its conclusion.
2:15 I do hope that we can begin
to continue there.
2:21 K: You see,
one of the factors in death is
2:29 the mind is so frightened.
2:33 We are so frightened
of that very word
2:37 and nobody talks about it.
2:42 I mean
it isn't a daily conversation.
2:46 It is something to be avoided,
2:48 something that is inevitable,
2:50 for God's sake, keep it
as far away as possible.
2:54 A: We even paint corpses
to make them look
2:56 as if they are not dead.
K: That's the most absurd thing.
3:00 Now, what we are discussing,
sir, is, isn't it,
3:06 the understanding of death,
3:10 its relation to living,
3:14 and this thing called love.
3:19 One cannot possibly understand
the immensity
3:23 - and it is immense,
this thing called death -
3:29 unless there is
a real freedom from fear.
3:35 That's why we talked sometime ago
3:39 about the problem of fear.
3:42 Unless the mind frees itself
from fear,
3:50 there is no possibility
of understanding
3:53 the extraordinary beauty,
3:57 and the vitality of death.
4:02 A: That's a very, very
remarkable way to put it:
4:05 the vitality of death.
4:08 And yet, normally,
we regard it as the total
4:12 negation of life.
K: The negation of life.
4:14 That's right.
4:15 So, if we are enquiring
into this question of death,
4:21 fear must be completely
non-existent in us.
4:28 Then I can proceed.
4:29 Then I can find out
what death means.
4:35 We have touched a little bit
on reincarnation,
4:39 the belief that is maintained
throughout the East,
4:45 which has no reality
in daily life.
4:50 It is like going to church
every Sunday
4:53 and being mischievous
for the rest of the six days.
5:00 So - you follow? - a person
who is really serious,
5:04 really attentive,
goes into this question of death,
5:07 he must understand
what it means, the quality of it,
5:12 not the ending of it.
5:15 That's what we are going
to a little bit discuss.
5:21 The ancient Egyptians,
5:26 the pharaohs, and all the
5:29 first dynasty
till the 18th, and so on,
5:32 they prepared for death.
5:40 They said, we will cross that river
with all our goods,
5:45 with all our chariots,
with all our belongings,
5:48 with all our property,
5:51 and therefore their caves,
their tombs were filled
5:54 with all the things
of their daily life
5:57 - corn, you know all that.
6:00 So, living was only a
means to an ending, dying.
6:10 That's one way of looking at it.
6:14 The other is reincarnation,
6:17 which is the Indian,
Asiatic outlook.
6:21 And there is this whole idea
of resurrection,
6:24 of the Christians.
6:26 Reborn, carried by Gabriel Angel,etc.,
to heaven,
6:31 and you will be rewarded.
6:36 Now, what is the fact?
6:40 These are all theories,
6:41 suppositions,
beliefs, and non-facts.
6:47 I mean, supposed to be born,
Jesus comes out of the grave,
6:53 resurrected physically.
That is just a belief.
6:58 There were no cameras then,
7:02 there were no ten people
to say, yes, I saw it.
7:07 It is only somebody imagined.
7:13 We will go into that
a little bit later.
7:17 So, there is this living
and preparing for death
7:23 as the ancient Egyptians did.
7:26 Then there is the reincarnation.
7:28 Then there is resurrection.
7:30 Now, if one isn't frightened
- you follow, sir? - deeply,
7:37 then what is death?
7:40 What is it that dies,
apart from the organism?
7:46 The organism may continue,
7:49 if you look after it
very carefully,
7:51 for eighty, or ninety,
or one hundred years.
7:56 If you have no disease,
if you have no accidents,
7:59 if there is a way of living
sanely, healthily,
8:06 perhaps you will last one
hundred years or 110 years.
8:09 And then what?
8:13 You follow, sir?
8:14 You will live
one hundred years, for what?
8:18 For this kind of life?
8:21 Fighting, quarrelling,
bickering, bitterness,
8:25 anger, jealousy, futility,
a meaningless existence.
8:31 It is a meaningless existence
as we are living now.
8:36 A: And in terms of
our previous remarks,
8:38 this is all the content
8:39 of our consciousness.
K: Our consciousness. That's right.
8:44 So, what is it that dies?
8:47 And what is it
one is frightened of?
8:52 You follow? What is it,
one is frightened of in death?
8:56 Losing the known?
8:59 Losing my wife? Losing my house?
9:02 Losing all the things
I have acquired?
9:06 Losing this content
of consciousness?
9:11 You follow?
9:14 So, can the content of consciousness
be totally emptied?
9:27 You follow, sir?
9:28 A: Yes, I do.
K: Which is the living.
9:33 The dying is the living,
9:37 when the content
is totally emptied.
9:47 That means no attachment.
9:54 It isn't a brutal cutting off,
9:57 but the understanding
of attachment,
10:00 the understanding of dependency,
10:03 the understanding of acquisition,
10:06 power, position, anxiety - all that.
10:10 The emptying of that
is the real death.
10:18 And therefore
the emptying of consciousness
10:24 means the consciousness,
10:26 which has created
its own limitation
10:30 by its content, comes to an end.
10:33 I wonder if I have...
A: Yes, you have.
10:38 I was following you
very carefully,
10:44 and it occurred to me
that there is
10:51 a radical relation
between birth and death,
10:56 that the two,
10:59 when they are looked upon
as moments in a total cycle,
11:04 are not grasped
at the depth level
11:07 that you are beginning
to speak about.
11:09 K: Yes, sir.
A: Am I correct?
11:10 K: Correct.
A: Good, please do go on.
11:13 K: So, death becomes a living
11:20 when
the content of consciousness,
11:24 which makes its own frontier,
its own limitation,
11:28 comes to an end.
11:36 And this is not a theory,
11:38 not a speculative intellectual
11:44 but the actual
perception of attachment.
11:49 I am taking that as an example.
11:52 Being attached to something
11:54 - property, man, woman,
the book I have written,
12:00 or the knowledge
I have acquired.
12:03 The attachment.
12:05 And the battle to be detached.
12:09 Because attachment brings pain.
12:12 Therefore I say to myself,
I must be detached.
12:15 And the battle begins.
12:19 And the whole content of
my consciousness is this
12:26 - the battle which we described
12:28 Now, can that content
be emptied - empty itself?
12:35 Not emptied
by an act of perception,
12:39 you understand?
- empty itself.
12:43 Which means: can this
whole content be observed
12:51 with its unconscious content?
12:55 You follow, sir?
A: Yes, I do. I'm thinking...
13:00 K: I can be consciously aware
13:02 of the content
of my consciousness
13:06 - my house, my property, my wife,
my children, my job,
13:11 the things I have acquired,
the things I have learned.
13:14 I can be consciously aware
of all that.
13:16 But also there is a deeper
13:19 content in the very recesses
of my mind,
13:26 which is racial,
collective, acquired,
13:35 the things that unconsciously
13:38 I have gathered, the influences,
the pressures, the strains
13:42 of living in a world
that is corrupt.
13:45 All that has seeped in,
all that has gathered in there.
13:50 A: Both personal and impersonal.
13:52 K: Impersonal, yes, that's right.
13:54 A: This includes then
13:56 what the depth psychologists
are calling
13:58 'collective unconscious'.
K: I don't know what they call it.
14:00 A: As well as
the personal consciousness.
14:03 K: Collective as well as...
So there is that.
14:06 Now, can all that be exposed?
14:11 Because this is very important.
14:14 If the mind really wants to understand,
grasp the full meaning of death,
14:24 the vastness of it, the great
quality of a mind that says,
14:28 yes, that's empty!
- you follow?
14:30 It gives a tremendous vitality,
14:35 So, my question is:
14:37 can the mind be aware totally
of all the content,
14:46 hidden as well as the open,
14:49 the collective,
the personal, the racial,
14:54 the transitory?
14:56 You follow? The whole of that.
15:00 Now, we say it is possible
through analysis.
15:07 A: Yes, we do.
15:08 K: I said analysis is paralysis.
15:13 Because every analysis
must be perfect, complete.
15:22 And you are frightened
that it might not be complete.
15:26 And if you have not completed it,
you carry it over
15:30 as a memory, which will then
analyse the next incident.
15:36 So each analysis brings
its own incompleteness.
15:41 A: Oh, certainly, yes.
K: Therefore it is a total paralysis.
15:48 A: In following what you are saying
15:50 I'm very taken with what
we usually regard as death,
15:58 which has a
16:00 very clear relationship to
what you've said about the
16:03 endless series of analytical acts.
K: Acts. Yes, sir.
16:07 A: We regard death as terminus
in terms of a line.
16:12 K: Quite,
because we think laterally.
16:15 A: We think laterally, exactly.
But what you're saying is:
16:19 on the contrary, we must
regard this vertically. K: Yes.
16:25 A: And in the regarding
of it vertically
16:29 we no longer see
16:31 - please check me
if I am off here -
16:33 we no longer see death
16:37 as simply a moment of termination
to a certain
16:47 trajectory of repetition.
16:51 But there is a total
qualitative change here,
16:58 which is not
the cessation of something
17:04 that we have to regret
17:07 as though we had lost
something valuable.
17:08 K: Yes, I am leaving
my wife and children. A: Right.
17:11 K: And my property, my
blasted bank account.
17:18 A: Yes, yes.
K: You see, sir,
17:21 if one can go very deeply
into this:
17:25 there is this content,
which is my consciousness,
17:32 acquired, inherited,
imposed, influenced,
17:37 propaganda, attachment,
17:39 anxiety, fear, pleasure
- all that,
17:43 and also the hidden things.
17:46 I'm asking myself,
since analysis is really paralysis,
17:54 - not an intellectual supposition
17:56 but, actually,
it is not a complete act,
18:01 analysis can never produce
a complete act.
18:05 The very word 'analysis' means
18:07 to break up,
you know, the breaking up.
18:11 A: To loosen up.
K: Loosen up, break it up.
18:13 Therefore I reject that totally.
18:19 I won't analyse, because I see
18:22 the stupidity,
the paralytic process of it.
18:28 Then what am I to do?
You are following?
18:31 Because that's the tradition,
18:37 or analysis by myself
or by a professional,
18:46 which is now the fashion,
and so on, so on, so on.
18:49 So if the mind
sees the truth of it,
18:53 and therefore
analysis falls away,
18:56 then what is the mind
to do with the content?
19:01 You...
19:04 A: Yes, I do see that.
19:07 K: We know what the content is.
19:09 We don't have to
eternally describe.
19:12 Now, what is it to do?
It has to be emptied.
19:18 Otherwise
it is mere continuity.
19:21 A: No, there is no use analysing
what is already there,
19:25 because that will not change
19:27 what is there in any way,
shape or form.
19:30 That seems to be very,
very plain.
19:36 Perhaps you would
for a moment explain
19:45 why
we simply refuse to see that.
19:51 We do believe
that an analytical enquiry
19:55 is ordered to a revelation.
We do believe that. K: No, sir.
19:59 You can see it in a minute.
20:00 Analysis implies the analyser
and the analysed. A: Yes.
20:06 K: The analyser is the analysed.
20:12 A: Yes, we are back to
the observer and the observed.
20:15 K: Obviously!
I am analysing my anger.
20:17 Who is the analyser?
20:19 Part of the fragment,
which is anger.
20:25 So, the analyser
pretends to be different
20:30 from the analysed.
20:32 But when I see the truth that
the analyser is the analysed,
20:37 then a totally different
action takes place.
20:42 Then there is no conflict
20:43 between the analyser
and the analysed.
20:45 There is instant action,
a perception,
20:49 which is the ending
and going beyond the 'what is'.
20:54 A: The reason I asked for
the explanation was because
20:58 of the concern raised earlier
about knowledge.
21:01 K: Yes. After all,
the observer is knowledge.
21:06 A: Yes, I was concerned that
21:12 study, in its proper form
21:16 was not regarded - in the
context of our discussion -
21:22 as unprofitable as such.
K: No, no, of course not.
21:24 A: We don't mean that.
K: We didn't even discuss it.
21:27 That's so obvious.
A: Exactly. Yes, fine, do go.
21:29 Well, yes, it is obvious
in terms of our discussion,
21:33 but the thing
that concerns me is that
21:35 so ingrained is the notion that...
21:39 For instance, in the
story I told you about,
21:42 when I came to hear you
years ago,
21:44 I began doing analysis
while I was listening to your words,
21:49 and consequently I could
hardly end up with anything
21:53 qualitatively different
from what I came in with.
21:57 But you see,
I didn't see that at the time.
22:00 And in our videotaping
our conversations here,
22:04 this will be listened to,
22:06 and when we say 'yes' about
knowledge, this is obvious
22:10 - in the context of our conversation
it is.
22:12 But then I'm thinking of...
22:14 K: Not only in the context
of our conversation,...
22:16 is so.
A: It is as such.
22:18 K: Life is that.
A: Exactly, I couldn't agree,
22:21 but immediately I flashed back
22:23 to my own behaviour,
22:26 and I know that
I was not alone in that,
22:31 because I listened
to other conversations
22:33 regarding it at the time.
22:35 But, yes, I see what you mean
now about analysis as such.
22:40 It seems to me very clear.
K: Analysis implies, sir,
22:42 the analyser and the analysed.
22:44 A: Precisely.
K: The analyser is the analysed.
22:47 And also analysis
implies time, duration.
22:50 I must take time to unearth,
to uncover,
22:57 and it will take me
rest of my life.
23:00 A: This is a confusion
we have about death too,
23:03 death's relation to time.
23:04 K: That's right. I'm coming to that.
23:06 A: Yes, of course,
yes, please do, please.
23:09 K: So, the mind, perceiving,
discards analysis completely.
23:17 Not because it's not profitable,
23:22 not because it doesn't get me
where I want,
23:25 but I see the impossibility
23:29 of emptying the consciousness
of its content,
23:33 if the mind approaches
through that channel:
23:40 analyser, time,
and the utter futility
23:45 - at the end of 40 years
I am still analysing.
23:50 A: And the content
of my consciousness
23:52 has not qualitatively changed
at all. K: Changed at all.
23:54 A: No, it's becoming intensified
in its corruption.
23:58 K: That's right. That's right.
24:02 But the mind
must see its content,
24:07 must be totally aware of it,
not fragments of it.
24:14 How is that to be done?
24:17 You follow, sir?
A: Yes, I do.
24:19 K: Because that's very important
in relation to death.
24:25 Because the content of my
consciousness is consciousness.
24:32 That consciousness is me,
24:35 my ego, my saying,
'I and you, we and they',
24:45 whether they the communists,
they the Catholics,
24:48 they the Protestants,
or they the Hindus - they and we.
24:54 So,
it is very important to find out
24:59 whether it is possible
to empty consciousness
25:03 of its content.
25:04 Which means the dying to the me.
25:12 You follow?
25:14 A: Yes, I do.
K: Because that is the me.
25:19 A: This is
where the terror starts.
25:21 K: That's where the terror starts.
25:22 A: Precisely.
There's the intuition that, if I die
25:25 to the content of this consciousness,
that I am wiped out.
25:29 K: Yes.
25:31 I, who have worked,
25:34 who have lived a righteous life
- or unrighteous life -
25:37 who have done so much,
mischief or good,
25:43 I have struggled
to better myself,
25:47 I've been so kind, so gentle,
25:49 so angry, so bitter
- you follow? -
25:52 and when you say
empty your consciousness,
25:57 it means you are asking me
to die to all that!
26:01 So, you are touching
at the very root of fear.
26:10 A: Yes, exactly. K: At the root
of terror of not being.
26:20 Oh yes, that's it, sir.
26:23 And
I want to immortalise that me.
26:32 I do it through books,
26:35 writing a book, and say,
famous book.
26:39 Or I paint.
26:43 Or through paint, through works,
through good acts,
26:47 through building this or that,
I immortalise myself.
26:55 A: This has very pernicious effects
within the family,
26:59 because we must have a son
in order to...
27:03 K: ...carry on.
A: ...immortalise the name in time.
27:06 K: Therefore the family
becomes a danger. A: Exactly.
27:15 K: So,
look what we have done, sir:
27:18 the ancient Egyptians
immortalised themselves,
27:23 made their life immortal
by thinking, carrying on.
27:27 A: Perpetuity.
K: Perpetuity.
27:31 And the robbers
come and tear it all to pieces.
27:37 Tutankhamen
is merely a mask now,
27:41 a golden mask with a mummy,
and so on.
27:45 So, man has sought immortality
through works,
27:50 through every way to find
that which is immortal,
27:58 that is, beyond mortality.
28:03 Right?
28:05 A: It's a very remarkable thing
that the word 'immortal'
28:08 is a negative.
K: Yes, not mortal.
28:10 A: Yes, it's not saying what it is.
28:17 K: We are going to find out what it is.
A: Good.
28:21 K: You follow, sir?
This is a very, very serious thing.
28:23 It isn't a plaything between
two people enjoying a discussion,
28:27 It is tremendously important!
28:31 A: Yes, I was laughing
at the irony of it.
28:36 That, inherent in the structure
of that word,
28:40 there is a warning,
28:42 and we just go right
through the red light.
28:44 K: Right.
A: Yes, please do go on.
28:47 K: So, what is immortality?
28:52 Not the book.
A: Oh no.
28:55 K: Not the painting
which I have done,
28:57 not, going to the moon
28:59 and putting some
idiotic flag up there.
29:03 Not, living a righteous life,
29:07 - or not living a righteous life.
29:09 So, what is immortality?
29:15 The cathedrals are beautiful,
marvellous cathedrals,
29:20 in stone; an earthquake comes
- gone.
29:25 You carve out of marble a
marvellous thing of Michelangelo,
29:32 an earthquake, fire
- destroyed.
29:35 Some lunatic comes along
with a hammer and breaks it up.
29:40 So, it is in none of those.
29:45 Right?
A: Right.
29:47 K: Because that is capable
of being destroyed.
29:54 Every statue becomes
a dead thing,
29:59 every poem, every painting.
30:03 So, then one asks,
what is immortality?
30:06 It's not in the building
- just see it, sir -
30:10 It's not in the cathedral.
30:12 It's not in the Saviour,
which you have invented,
30:17 which thought has invented.
30:19 Not in the gods that man has
created out of his own image.
30:25 Then what is immortality?
30:29 Because that is related to
consciousness and to death.
30:37 Unless I find that out,
death is a terror.
30:41 A: Of course, of course.
30:45 K: I have tried to immortalise
30:48 become immortal by the thought
30:52 that there is a Brahman,
there is a God,
30:54 there is eternality,
there is a nameless one,
30:59 and I will do everything
to approach him.
31:04 Therefore
I'll lead a righteous life.
31:07 Therefore I will pray,
I will beg, I will obey.
31:10 I will live a life of poverty,
31:15 and so on, so on, so on,
31:18 in order to have
that immortal reality with me.
31:24 But I know all that
is born of thought.
31:30 Right, sir? A: Yes, as soon as...
K: Wait a minute, sir,
31:32 see what happens.
31:34 So I see
thought and its products
31:38 are
the children of barren women.
31:42 A: Precisely.
31:45 K: See what's taken place.
Then what is immortality?
31:57 The beauty in the church
- not I built the church -
32:03 the beauty in the cathedral,
the beauty in the poem,
32:06 the beauty in the sculpture.
32:10 The beauty,
not the object of beauty.
32:15 I wonder...
32:16 A: The beauty itself.
K: Itself.
32:19 That is immortal.
32:22 And I cannot grasp that,
the mind cannot grasp it,
32:28 because beauty is not in
the field of consciousness.
32:39 A: You see, what you have said,
32:41 stands it all on its head.
32:44 We think when something dies
32:47 that we have cherished,
that is beautiful,
32:49 that beauty dies, in some sense,
32:54 with that which has passed away.
K: Passed away, yes.
33:00 A: Actually it's the feeling
of being bereft of that beauty
33:08 that I regarded as my privilege
to have personal access to.
33:14 The belief that that has perished,
not simply being lost,
33:19 because what is lost
is by its nature
33:25 predisposed to be found.
33:27 But to perish is to be
wiped out utterly, isn't it?
33:32 And so the belief is deep.
K: Oh, very, very.
33:36 A: Extremely deep with respect
to what we mean by perish.
33:40 In fact, the word isn't used
very often, it's frightening,
33:43 it's a very frightening word.
33:44 We always talk about
losing things,
33:45 hardly ever do we say
something perishes.
33:48 Now back to what I mentioned
about standing it on its head.
33:53 The image came to my mind
as a metaphor
34:00 - I hope not one of those images
we've been talking about.
34:03 That beauty,
34:08 rather than being imprisoned
and therefore taken down
34:14 to the utter depths of nullity,
when the thing perishes,
34:19 has simply let it go.
34:24 In some sense beauty has let
this expression go.
34:30 That is upside down from
what is usually thought.
34:33 K: I know, I know.
34:35 A: And it has probably let it
go precisely on time.
34:41 K: That's right.
A: That's what's so marvellous.
34:44 Yes, yes.
34:45 K: So, immortality, we have said,
34:50 is within the field of time.
34:55 A: In the one field.
34:58 K: Right?
A: Yes.
34:59 K: The field of time. A: Yes.
35:01 K: And death is also then
in the field of time.
35:06 Because I have created,
35:10 through thought,
the things of time.
35:15 And death is the ending
35:19 or the beginning
of a state which is timeless.
35:25 Of that I am frightened.
35:29 So, I want everything
preserved in the field of time.
35:39 You follow, sir?
A: Yes, yes, we think it could...
35:42 K: And that is
what we call immortal
35:46 - the statue, the poem,
the church, the cathedral.
35:51 And I see also
all that is corruptible,
35:55 destroyed by one accident,
36:01 or by an earthquake
- everything is gone.
36:06 So, immortality is not
within the field of time.
36:17 And time is thought
- of course.
36:22 A: Of course, yes, that follows.
K: Of course.
36:25 So,
anything that thought creates
36:29 must be within the field of time.
36:36 And yet thought is trying
to seek immortality,
36:40 which is, immortality of itself
- and the things it has created.
36:50 You...
A: Yes.
36:51 K: So, then the problem is,
can the mind see all this,
37:02 - see it!
Not imagine that it is seeing it.
37:07 A: No, actually see it.
K: Actually see it.
37:13 A: Yes, the remark I made before,
37:16 when you began saying
the field of time
37:18 and I said the one field,
37:21 I didn't mean
that the field of time,
37:24 as you've described it,
is the one field,
37:25 but that we could be
so appallingly...
37:28 K: ...blind.
A: ...mistaken and blind...
37:30 K: Ignorant.
37:31 A: ...that the field of time
is another fragment and...
37:36 K: That's right.
A:'s the only field.
37:38 And what really struck me was:
37:45 this misuse of thought
37:48 generates the most appalling
37:51 K: Yes, sir.
37:57 A: I'm walling myself up
in stone.
38:02 Yes, please.
38:03 K: So,
38:09 the mind, perceiving all this,
if it is alert,
38:13 if it has been watchful
all the time
38:16 that we have been discussing,
38:19 must inevitably see
38:21 the whole content exposed,
38:27 without any effort.
38:29 It's like reading a map.
38:31 You spread it out and look.
38:35 But if you want to go
in a direction,
38:38 then you don't look
at the whole map.
38:43 Then you say, I want to go
from here to there,
38:45 the direction is there,
so many miles,
38:47 and...
you don't look at the rest.
38:51 What we are asking is,
no direction but just look.
38:58 Look at the content
of your consciousness,
39:03 without direction,
without choice.
39:09 Be aware of it
39:11 without
any exertion of discernment.
39:18 Be choicelessly aware
of this extraordinary map.
39:26 Then that choiceless awareness
39:29 gives you that tremendous energy
39:31 to go beyond it.
39:34 But you need energy
to go beyond it.
39:39 A: This leads me
39:41 to the notion of reincarnation
39:46 that we began to touch
on a little earlier:
39:49 I see the demonic root in that.
K: Yes, sir.
39:54 You see, reincarnate next life.
39:59 Nobody says, incarnate now.
A: Yes, exactly.
40:04 K: You follow, sir?
A: Yes, I do, I do.
40:06 K: You can only incarnate now,
when you die to the content.
40:13 You can be reborn,
regenerated totally,
40:17 if you die to the content.
40:19 A: Yes. Yes. Yes.
40:23 And there is a terrible truth
40:29 on the dark side,
the demonic side
40:32 to this
doctrine of reincarnation,
40:36 because,
if that content of consciousness
40:38 is not emptied out,
40:41 then it must prevail!
K: So what happens?
40:45 A: Then it really does, yes!
K: It prevails.
40:48 So what happens?
40:52 I do not know, as a human being,
how to empty this thing.
40:57 I'm not even interested,
I'm only frightened.
41:01 A: Only scared to death.
K: Scared to death.
41:03 And I preserve something,
41:05 and I die, am burned,
or buried under ground.
41:10 The content goes on.
41:15 As we said, the content of me
is your content also,
41:22 it's not so very different.
A: No, no, no.
41:27 K: Slightly modified,
slightly exaggerated,
41:30 given certain tendencies,
which depend on
41:33 your conditioning of environment,
and so on, so on,
41:35 but it is essentially
same consciousness.
41:41 Unless a human being
empties that consciousness,
41:45 that consciousness goes on
like a river,
41:51 collecting, accumulating
- all that's going on.
41:55 And out of that river
comes the expression
42:01 or the manifestation
of the one that is lost.
42:06 When the mediums,
seances, all those say
42:13 your brother, your uncle,
your wife is here,
42:16 what has happened is they
have manifested themselves
42:21 out of that stream which is
the continuous consciousness
42:27 of struggle, pain, unhappiness,
misery - all that.
42:36 And a man who has observed
42:41 and has looked at the
consciousness, and empties it,
42:45 he doesn't belong to
that stream at all.
42:52 Then he is living
each moment anew,
42:58 because he is dying each moment.
You understand, sir?
43:02 A: Oh yes, I do, yes, I do.
43:04 K: There is no accumulation
of the me
43:07 which has to be expressed.
43:09 He is dying every minute,
43:13 living every minute,
and dying every minute.
43:16 And therefore in that there is
43:20 - what shall I say? -
there is no content.
43:22 You follow, sir?
A: Yes.
43:26 K: It is like
a tremendous energy in action.
43:30 A: This gives a totally different
43:33 understanding of what we mean by
43:39 the phrase 'in the afterlife'.
43:44 On the one hand, there is
this continuity in disordered
43:51 content of consciousness...
K: It is totally disordered.
43:53 A: ...which is not
radically affected
43:59 qualitatively
with respect to its nature,
44:01 simply because somebody has
stopped breathing for good. No.
44:05 It's on its way.
K: On its way.
44:07 A: And therefore
44:10 the attempt that is often made
on the part of persons
44:19 to contact
this stream of consciousness
44:22 after the death of a person,
44:24 when made within the same
quality of consciousness,
44:31 attains nothing but
a reinforcement...
44:34 K: Yes, that's right.
A: ...within their own personal life.
44:37 And it does a terrible thing
44:38 to their content of consciousness
44:40 which has gone on,
since it also feeds that some more.
44:44 K: That's right.
44:46 A: Yes, I do see that.
44:48 K: A person came to see me,
and his wife was dead.
44:55 And he really thought
he loved her.
44:59 So he said,
I must see my wife again.
45:03 Can you help me?
45:05 I said,
which wife do you want to see?
45:08 The one that cooked?
45:11 The one that bore the children?
45:13 The one that gave you sex?
45:16 The one that quarrelled
with you?
45:19 The one that dominated you,
frightened you?
45:25 He said, I don't want
to meet any of those.
45:28 I want to meet the good of her.
45:35 You follow, sir?
A: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
45:37 K: The image of the good
he has built out of her.
45:43 None of the ugly things,
45:46 or what he considered ugly things,
but the idea of the good
45:50 which he had culled out of her,
45:54 and that is the image
he wants to meet.
45:56 I said, don't be infantile.
46:01 You are so utterly immature.
46:03 When you have slept with her,
and got angry with her,
46:07 all that you don't want,
you want just
46:09 the image which you have
about her goodness.
46:12 I said... And you know,
sir, he began to cry,
46:17 really cry for the first time.
46:19 He said afterwards,
I have cried when she died,
46:24 but the tears were of self-pity,
my loneliness, my sense of
46:32 - you follow? -
lack of things.
46:34 Now
I have cried because I see
46:38 what I have done.
46:40 You understand, sir?
46:43 A: Yes, I do.
46:50 K: So, to understand death
there must be no fear.
46:57 The fear exists
and the terror of it exists only
47:02 when the content
is not understood.
47:07 And the content is the 'me'.
47:15 And the 'me' is the chair
- you follow, sir?
47:19 A: Oh yes.
K: The thing I am attached to.
47:22 It is so stupid!
47:25 And I am frightened of that,
47:29 the bank account,
the family - you follow?
47:34 A: Oh yes, yes, I do.
47:36 K: So unless one is really,
deeply serious in this matter,
47:44 you can't incarnate now
47:50 in the deep sense of that word,
47:52 and therefore immortality
is in the book,
47:56 in the statue, in the cathedral,
47:58 in the things
I have put together,
48:01 the things I have put together
by thought.
48:05 That's all the field of time.
A: Right.
48:08 It just occurred to me
48:11 what a terrible thing
we have been doing
48:15 so often over and over
again to Plato
48:21 by this perennial attempt at
academic analysis of the text,
48:27 when he plainly said that the
business of the philosopher,
48:32 by which he didn't mean
the analyser in this mad way
48:36 that we have been
observing it goes on,
48:40 the business of the philosopher,
48:42 namely
the one who is concerned with
48:45 a radical change and rebirth,
48:48 which he associates
with wisdom,
48:51 the business of the philosopher
is to practise dying,
48:56 to practise dying.
K: Not practice.
49:00 A: I don't think he meant
routine, repetition:
49:04 die, die, die, die, die.
49:07 I think he puts it
with an 'ing',
49:12 because he doesn't want
to fall out of act.
49:18 I know I use this phrase
all the time,
49:20 but it came to me early
in our conversations,
49:22 and it seems to say, for me,
what I want to say.
49:27 I have to say
I learned it from you,
49:30 - though I don't want
to put the words in your mouth.
49:33 But it's possible
to fall out of act into the terror
49:42 and the demonic stream of time,
49:45 but when one is in act,
49:47 the whole thing
is an ongoing move.
49:50 K: So, sir, time has a stop.
A: Precisely.
49:54 K: See the beauty of it, sir.
49:56 And it is that beauty
which is immortal,
50:00 not the things
which thought has created.
50:04 A: Right.
50:07 K: So, living is dying.
50:12 A: Right.
50:13 K: And love is essentially
dying to the me.
50:20 Not the things which thought
has said: this is love,
50:28 love-sex, love-pleasure.
You follow? All that.
50:31 A: Yes.
50:32 K: It is:
the dying to time is love.
50:39 So, living, love, and death
are one thing,
50:48 not divisive, not separated,
not divorced,
50:51 not in the field of time,
50:54 but it is completely a living,
moving thing, indivisible.
50:59 And that is immortal.
A: Yes.
51:07 K: So,
51:10 Now, most of us are
educated wrongly.
51:16 A: How true that is!
51:19 K: From childhood we are
never taught to be serious.
51:26 From childhood we are taught
the cultivation of thought,
51:35 cultivation of thought
51:37 and the expression
and the marvels of thought.
51:43 All our philosophies, books,
everything is based on that.
51:51 And when you say,
die to all that,
51:57 you really awaken
the terror of not knowing.
52:05 This,
gives me security in knowing.
52:10 A: Yes.
52:11 K: Then knowledge becomes
the field of my safety.
52:18 And you ask me, give all that up,
die to all that.
52:23 And I say you are insane.
52:25 How can I die to that,
that's part of me.
52:31 A: There's a very, very beautiful
52:36 Zen saying that seems
to relate to this,
52:39 when it's understood correctly.
52:42 It speaks of jumping off
the cliff with hands free.
52:46 Jumping off the cliff
with hands free.
52:51 The hands...
52:53 K: ...that hold.
A: ...that hold,
52:56 always grasping the past
52:59 or reaching out
towards the future,
53:01 and we never get off
that horizontal track.
53:04 It's like a Lionel train,
it forever goes on.
53:08 K: So, then
it comes to the question:
53:11 what is living in the present?
53:17 Death is the future.
53:21 And I've lived for 40 years,
all the accumulated memories.
53:27 What is the present?
53:30 The present
is the death of the content.
53:35 You follow, sir?
A: Yes.
53:37 K: I don't know, it has
got immense beauty in that.
53:42 Because that means no conflict
53:45 - you follow, sir? -
no tomorrow.
53:51 If you tell a man who loves,
53:54 who is going to enjoy
that man or woman tomorrow,
53:58 when you say there is
no tomorrow, he says,
54:00 what are you talking about?
54:02 A: Yes, I know.
Sometimes you will say,
54:04 when you have said something,
it sounds absurd.
54:07 K: Of course.
54:08 A: And, of course, in relation to
54:11 the way we have been taught
54:12 to do analysis,
it sounds absurd.
54:14 K: Therefore, sir, can we
educate children, students,
54:21 to live totally differently?
54:28 Live and understand,
and act with this sense of
54:34 understanding the content
and the beauty of it all.
54:41 A: If I've understood you
54:43 there's only one answer
to that question: yes, yes.
54:52 I think the word here
wouldn't be 'absurd',
54:54 it would be something like
54:58 Yes, I see now what you mean
55:03 about death and birth
55:08 as non-temporally related,
55:13 in terms of the question
55:14 that we raised about
their relation earlier,
55:17 because when you say
there is this incarnation...
55:21 K: A:, upon the instant...
K: Yes, sir.
55:24 A: ...then...
55:25 K: No,
if you see the beauty of it, sir,
55:27 the thing takes place.
A: Then it's happened.
55:31 K: It is not the result of mentation.
A: No.
55:34 K: Not the result of immense
thinking, thinking, thinking.
55:38 It is actual perception
of 'what is'.
55:44 A: And the amazement that
it is the same energy at root.
55:50 K: Yes, sir.
55:51 A: It doesn't take
something over here
55:53 that's a different energy called
55:55 K: No, that's an outside agency
brought in here.
55:58 A: No.
K: It is the same wasted energy,
56:01 dissipated energy,
which is no longer dissipated.
56:06 A: Exactly.
K: Therefore it is...
56:08 A: Exactly.
56:10 This throws a totally...
56:15 I'm beginning now
to use the words
56:17 'absolutely' and 'totally',
which in the Academy, you know,
56:20 we're advised to be
very careful of.
56:24 K: I know.
56:27 A: But I'm sorry about all that.
56:30 The fact remains
that it is total.
56:34 It is total.
K: Yes.
56:36 A: There is a total change.
56:39 And the transformation of
each individual is a total one.
56:44 K: It is not within the field
of time and knowledge.
56:47 A: Is not within the field
of time and knowledge.
56:49 K: You see now the relation.
56:50 A: Yes, and then the profound
seriousness of it that attends
56:55 when one sees the rest
of that sentence of yours:
57:00 it is the responsibility of each.
57:06 And if I may add just
one other thing here,
57:09 because it seems to me
that it is coming together:
57:14 that it isn't
the responsibility of one
57:16 over against the other
to do something.
57:19 It is to come with and to,
57:24 as the other
is coming to and with,
57:28 and we begin together...
57:30 K: Yes, sir. Share together.
A: have a look.
57:33 K: Learn together.
A: Just quietly having a look.
57:36 And in that activity,
which is not planned,
57:41 one of the amazing things
about this conversation is
57:44 that it - to use your
beautiful word - flowers.
57:50 K: It flowers, yes.
A: It doesn't require
57:54 an imposition
without of a contrivance.
57:59 K: No.
58:00 A: Of a management.
K: Management, quite.
58:03 A: Somehow
it grows out of itself.
58:07 It's this thing of
growing out of itself
58:10 that relates to this thing
58:14 that you've been talking about
in consciousness.
58:16 By pointing to the head
I don't mean
58:17 consciousness is up here, no,
58:19 but it's the 'out of itself',
58:23 it's like that water
that turns in on itself.
58:27 K: But it remains water.
A: It remains water. Exactly.
58:31 This has been a
wonderful revelation,
58:36 the whole thing about death,
living and love.
58:41 I do hope, when we have
our next conversation,
58:47 that we could begin
58:49 to pursue this in relation
to education even further.
58:53 K: Further, yes, sir.