Krishnamurti Subtitles

What is a responsible human being?

San Diego - 19 February 1974

Conversation with A.W. Anderson 4

0:37 Krishnamurti in Dialogue
with Dr. Allan W. Anderson
0:42 J. Krishnamurti was
born in South India
0:45 and educated in England.
0:47 For the past 40 years
0:48 he has been speaking
in the United States,
0:51 Europe, India, Australia,
and other parts of the world.
0:55 From the outset of his life's work
0:56 he repudiated all connections
0:59 with organised
religions and ideologies
1:01 and said that his only concern was
1:03 to set man absolutely
unconditionally free.
1:07 He is the author of many books,
1:09 among them The Awakening
of Intelligence,
1:12 The Urgency of Change,
1:14 Freedom From the Known,
and The Flight of the Eagle.
1:19 This is one of a series of dialogues
1:21 between Krishnamurti and
Dr. Allan W. Anderson,
1:24 who is professor of
religious studies
1:26 at San Diego State University
1:28 where he teaches Indian
and Chinese scriptures
1:31 and the oracular tradition.
1:33 Dr. Anderson, a published poet,
1:35 received his degree
from Columbia University
1:38 and the Union Theological Seminary.
1:41 He has been honoured with
the distinguished Teaching Award
1:44 from the California
State University.
1:47 A: Mr. Krishnamurti,
just at the point
1:49 where we left last time
in our conversation
1:54 we had raised the question
of the distinction between
1:58 the notion that I must be
responsible for my action
2:02 and... just being responsible.
K: Right, sir.
2:07 A: I was sitting here
thinking to myself,
2:11 'oh why can't we go on',
2:13 so perhaps we could start
at that point.
2:16 Would that be agreeable?
K: I think, sir,
2:17 there is
a very definite distinction
2:20 between responsible for
and being responsible.
2:26 Being responsible for
implies a direction,
2:34 a directed will.
2:39 But the feeling of responsibility
2:46 responsibility for everything,
not in a direction,
2:50 in any one particular direction.
2:54 Responsible for education,
responsible for politics,
3:00 responsible the way I live,
3:02 to be responsible
for my behaviour,
3:05 it's a total feeling
of complete responsibility
3:11 which is the ground in
which action takes place.
3:20 A: I think then
this takes us back
3:22 to this business of crisis
we were talking about.
3:25 If the crisis is continuous,
then it's misleading to say
3:33 I'm responsible for my action,
3:35 because I've put the
thing out there again
3:40 and it becomes an occasion
for my
3:43 confusing what is at hand,
3:45 that requires to be done,
3:46 and the concept of
this notion of my action,
3:50 because I am my action.
3:52 K: Yes, that's just it, that's it.
A: I am it.
3:54 K: That means,
the feeling of responsibility
4:01 expresses itself
4:04 politically, religiously,
educationally, in business,
4:08 in the whole of life, responsible
for the total behaviour,
4:18 not in a particular direction.
4:22 I think there is great deal
of difference when one says
4:26 'I am responsible
for my action.'
4:32 That means you are
responsible for your action
4:35 according to the idea
4:37 that you have preconceived
about action.
4:41 A: Exactly. Yes.
4:45 People sometimes will say that
4:51 the child is free
because it's not responsible.
4:55 K: Oh, child is...
You can't take a child into...
4:59 A: No, of course not.
5:00 But I think sometimes,
when we say this,
5:06 we have this nostalgia
for the past
5:09 as though our freedom
would be freedom from constraint,
5:14 whereas if one is his action,
5:17 genuinely, absolutely...
K: There is no restraint,
5:19 there is no restraint.
A: There isn't any restraint at all.
5:21 K: Not at all.
A: Right. Right.
5:23 K: Because, look.
5:26 If one has this total feeling
of responsibility,
5:32 then what is
your responsibility
5:35 with regard to your children?
5:40 It means education.
5:43 Are you educating them
to bring about a mind
5:48 that conforms to the pattern,
5:51 which the society
has established,
5:55 which means you accept
5:57 the immorality of the society
that is.
6:03 If you feel
totally responsible,
6:06 you are responsible
from the moment it's born
6:09 till the moment it dies.
6:14 The right kind of education,
6:17 not the education of
6:19 making the child conform,
6:23 the worship of success and
the division of nationalities
6:29 which brings about war
- you follow? -
6:31 all that
you are responsible for,
6:35 not just
in a particular direction.
6:38 Even if you are
in a particular direction
6:41 - I'm responsible for my act -
6:43 what is your action based on?
6:46 How can you be responsible
6:49 when you, when your action
is the result of a formula
6:55 that has been
handed down to you?
7:00 A: Yes, I quite follow what you mean.
K: Like communists,
7:04 they say
the state is responsible.
7:11 Worship the state,
the state is the god,
7:17 and you are responsible
to the state.
7:21 Which means they have conceived
what the state should be,
7:28 formulated ideationally,
and, according to that, you act.
7:35 That is not
a responsible action.
7:37 That's irresponsible action.
7:42 Whereas action means
the doing now.
7:46 The active present
of the verb 'to do'
7:50 which is to do now,
the acting now.
7:53 The acting now
must be free from the past.
7:59 Otherwise
you are just repeating,
8:03 repetition,
traditionally carrying on.
8:07 That's not...
8:08 A: I'm reminded of
something in the I Ching
8:14 that I think is a reflection
8:18 of this principle
that you pointed to
8:21 -I don't mean principle
in the abstract.
8:26 If I am quoting it correctly,
8:28 from one of
the standard translations,
8:30 it goes like this:
8:32 'The superior man...'
- by which it means the free man,
8:36 not hierarchically structured -
8:41 '...does not let his thoughts
go beyond his situation'.
8:46 Which would mean that he simply
would be present as he is,
8:57 not being responsible
to something out there
9:01 that is going to tell him
how to be responsible,
9:03 or what he should do,
9:07 but upon the instant that he is,
he is always...
9:12 K: Responsible.
A: ...responsible.
9:13 K: Always.
A: He simply does not
9:15 let his thoughts
go beyond his situation.
9:18 That goes back to
that word 'negation'.
9:19 Because if he won't
9:20 let his thoughts
go beyond his situation,
9:23 he has negated the possibility
9:24 for their doing so, hasn't he?
K: Yes.
9:26 Quite.
A: Oh yes, yes, yes, I see that.
9:31 The reason that I'm referring
to these other quotations
9:35 is because,
9:42 if what you are saying is true
9:47 and if what they say is true,
9:51 - quite without respect to
how they are understood
9:54 or not understood -
9:55 then there must be
something in common here,
9:59 and I realise that
your emphasis is practical,
10:04 eminently practical,
upon the act.
10:08 But it does seem to me to be
of great value, if one could
10:17 converse, commune with
the great literatures,
10:22 which have so many statements
- and the complaint
10:25 about the fact
that they are not understood.
10:28 I see that as a great gain.
K: Sir,
10:37 I have not read any books,
10:42 any literature in the sense...
10:45 A: Yes, I understand.
K: that sense.
10:50 Suppose
there is no book in the world.
10:54 A: The problem is the same.
K: The problem is the same.
10:57 A: Of course, of course.
10:59 K: There is no leader,
no teacher,
11:02 nobody to tell you do this,
do that,
11:04 don't do this, don't do that.
11:05 You are there!
11:08 You feel totally,
completely responsible.
11:13 A: Right. Yes.
11:16 K: Then you have to have
an astonishingly
11:20 active clear brain,
11:25 not befuddled, not puzzled,
not bewildered.
11:29 You must have a mind
that thinks clearly!
11:33 And you cannot think clearly,
11:35 if you are rooted in the past.
11:39 You are merely continuing
- modified perhaps -
11:43 through the present to the future.
That's all.
11:47 So from that
arises the question:
11:52 what is the responsibility
in human relationship?
12:01 A: Yes. Now we are
back to relationships.
12:03 K: Because that is
the basic foundation of life:
12:14 relationship.
That is, to be related,
12:17 to be in contact with.
12:20 A: We are presently related.
K: Related.
12:23 A: This is what is.
K: Yes.
12:26 Now, what is
human relationship?
12:31 If I feel totally responsible,
12:38 how does that responsibility
express in relationship:
12:45 to my children,
if I have children,
12:48 to my family, to my neighbour,
12:51 whether the neighbour
is next door
12:54 or ten thousand miles away,
12:56 he is still my neighbour!
12:59 So what is my responsibility?
13:02 What is the responsibility
of a man who feels totally,
13:10 completely involved
in this feeling
13:15 of being a light to himself
and totally responsible?
13:23 I think
this is a question, sir,
13:25 that has to be investigated.
13:30 A: Yes,
you know what I'm thinking?
13:32 I'm thinking
13:36 that only a person responsible,
as you have said it,
13:42 can make what we call,
in our tongue, a clean decision.
13:46 K: Of course, of course.
13:48 A: So many decisions
are frayed.
13:56 K: Sir,
I would like to ask this:
14:00 is there decision at all?
14:06 Decision implies choice.
14:11 A: Yes.
14:12 K: Choice implies a mind that's
confused, between this and that.
14:17 A: It means, I think, radically
to make a cut, to cut off.
14:22 K: Yes, but a mind that
sees clearly has no choice.
14:28 It doesn't decide. It acts.
14:32 A: Yes. Doesn't this take us back
14:35 to this word 'negation' again?
14:36 K: Yes, of course.
14:38 A: Might it not be
that a clean decision
14:40 could be interpreted
in terms of what takes place
14:44 at this point of negation
14:46 from which flows
a different action.
14:49 K: But I don't like to use
that word 'decision'
14:53 because, deciding
between this and that.
14:59 A: You don't want to use it
15:01 because of the implications
in it of conflict?
15:04 K: Conflict, choice,
15:09 we think we are free
because we choose.
15:13 We can choose, right?
A: Yes.
15:16 K: Is free a mind
that is capable of choice?
15:22 Or is a mind that is not free,
that chooses?
15:29 The choice implies
between this and that.
15:34 Obviously.
15:36 Which means,
the mind doesn't see clearly
15:42 and therefore there is choice.
15:44 The choice exists
when there is confusion.
15:48 A: Yes, yes, yes.
15:49 K: A mind that sees clearly,
there is no choice. It is doing.
15:56 I think this is where
16:02 we have got into rather trouble,
16:03 when we say
we are free to choose,
16:06 choice implies freedom.
I say, on the contrary!
16:11 Choice implies
a mind that is confused
16:14 and therefore not free.
16:18 A: What occurs to me now is
16:21 the difference
between regarding freedom
16:28 as a property or quality of action
rather than a state.
16:33 Yes. But we have the notion
16:35 that freedom is a state,
a condition,
16:40 which is quite different
from the emphasis
16:43 that you are leading me into.
16:45 K: Yes, that's right.
A: Yes, yes, yes.
16:48 K: So let's come back to this,
sir, which is
16:51 what is the responsibility
of a human being
16:57 - who feels this sense -
in relationship?
17:05 Because relationship is life,
17:07 relationship is
the foundation of existence.
17:13 Relationship is absolutely
17:17 otherwise you can't exist.
17:19 Relationship means
17:22 Everything is involved
in that one word.
17:26 Relation means love,
17:29 and, you know,
all that's implied.
17:32 Now, what is a human responsibility
in relationship?
17:42 A: If we were genuinely
and completely sharing,
17:47 then responsibility would
be present fully, is it not?
17:53 K: Yes, but how does it
express itself in relationship?
18:01 Not only between you and me now,
but between man and woman,
18:05 between... my neighbour,
18:10 relationship, sir,
to everything, to nature.
18:13 What's my relationship
to nature?
18:18 Would I go and kill
the baby seals?
18:23 A: No, no.
18:28 K: Would I go and destroy
human beings
18:31 calling them enemies?
18:36 Would I destroy nature, everything,
- which man is doing now?
18:42 He is destroying the earth,
the air, the sea, everything!
18:46 Because he feels
totally irresponsible.
18:51 A: He sees what is out there
as something to operate on.
18:56 K: Yes. Which is,
he kills the baby seal,
19:00 which I saw the other day
on a film,
19:02 it's an appalling thing.
19:03 And they are Christians,
they call themselves Christians,
19:06 going and killing
a little thing
19:09 for some lady
to put on the fur.
19:16 And - you follow? - totally
immoral, the whole thing is.
19:21 So, to come back, I say,
how does this responsibility
19:27 show itself in my life?
19:32 I am married
- I am not,
19:35 but suppose I am married -
what is my responsibility?
19:40 Am I related to my wife?
19:45 A: The record
doesn't seem very good.
19:47 K: Not only record, actuality.
19:49 Am I related to my wife?
A: Right.
19:51 K: Or am I related to my wife
19:53 according to the image
I have built about her?
19:59 And I am responsible
20:00 for that image
- you follow, sir?
20:02 A: Yes, because my input
has been continuous
20:05 with respect to that image.
K: Yes.
20:06 So, I have no relationship
with my wife,
20:12 if I have an image about her.
20:15 Or if I have an image
about myself
20:18 when I want to be successful,
20:19 and
all the rest of that business.
20:22 A: Since we were talking
about 'now', being now,
20:29 there is a point of contact
20:33 between what you are saying
20:35 and the phrase that you used
20:37 in one
of our earlier conversations
20:40 'the betrayal of the present'.
K: Absolutely.
20:45 You see,
that is the whole point, sir.
20:48 If I am related to you,
20:53 I have no image about you,
or you have no image about me,
20:58 then we have relationship.
21:03 We have no relationship
21:04 if I have an image
about myself or about you.
21:09 Our images
have a relationship,
21:13 when in actuality
we have no relationship.
21:17 I might sleep
with my wife or some,
21:19 but it is not a relationship.
21:24 It is a physical contact,
21:26 sensory excitement,
nothing else.
21:33 My responsibility is
not to have an image!
21:40 A: This brings to mind,
21:47 I think one of the loveliest
21:50 statements
in the English language
21:52 which
I should like to understand
21:55 in terms of what
we have been sharing.
21:59 These lines from
Keats' poem 'Endymion',
22:05 there is something miraculous,
22:07 marvellous in this statement,
22:09 it seems to me,
22:10 that is immediately related
to what you have been saying:
22:15 'A thing of beauty
is a joy forever'.
22:20 And then he says,
- as though that's not enough -
22:24 he says,
'Its loveliness increases'!
22:29 And then as though that's
not enough, he says,
22:34 'It will never pass
into nothingness'.
22:39 Now, when the present
is not betrayed,
22:46 it's full with a fullness
that keeps on abounding.
22:54 K: Yes, quite, I understand.
22:55 A: Would I be correct in that?
K: Yes, I think so.
22:58 A: I think that's truly
what he must be saying,
23:01 and one of the things too
that passed my mind was
23:07 he calls it a thing of beauty.
23:09 He doesn't call it
a beautiful thing.
23:11 It's a thing of beauty as
though it's a child of beauty.
23:17 A marvellous continuity
between this.
23:20 Not: it's beautiful because
I think it's beautiful,
23:22 and therefore it's outside.
23:27 Yes, yes, yes.
23:29 K: We come back,
I must stick to this,
23:30 because this is
really quite important.
23:33 Because,
go where you will,
23:40 there is no relationship
between human beings,
23:46 and that is the tragedy,
23:49 and from that arises
all our conflict, violence,
23:54 the whole business.
23:56 So, if... - not if - ...when there is
this responsibility,
24:02 the feeling
of this responsibility,
24:04 it translates itself
in relationship.
24:08 It doesn't matter
with whom it is.
24:12 A freedom from the known,
which is the image.
24:21 And therefore in that freedom
goodness flowers.
24:27 A: Goodness flowers.
24:29 K: And that is the beauty.
And that is beauty.
24:33 Beauty is not an abstract thing,
24:36 but it goes with goodness.
24:39 Goodness in behaviour, goodness
in conduct, goodness in action.
24:45 A: Sometimes while
we have been talking
24:47 I have started a sentence
with 'if,'
24:49 and
I have looked into your eyes
24:52 and immediately I got it out,
24:54 I knew
I had said the wrong thing.
24:56 It's just like a minute
ago you said 'if',
24:57 and you said, 'no, when'.
25:01 We are always 'if-ing' it up.
K: I know. 'If-ing' it up!
25:04 A: It is awful.
K: I know, sir.
25:07 We are always dealing
with abstractions
25:10 rather than with reality.
25:12 A: Immediately we 'if',
25:15 a construction is out there,
25:16 which we endlessly talk about.
K: That's right.
25:20 A: And we get cleverer
and cleverer about it,
25:23 and it has nothing to do
with anything!
25:27 Yes, yes, yes.
25:29 K: So, how does this responsibility
translate itself
25:35 in human behaviour?
25:39 You follow, sir?
A: Yes.
25:44 There would be
an end to violence.
25:47 K: Absolutely.
A: Wouldn't taper off.
25:54 K: You see
what we have done, sir.
25:57 We are violent human beings,
26:00 sexually, morally,
in every way,
26:03 we are violent human beings,
26:05 and not being able to resolve it,
we have created an ideal
26:12 of not being violent,
26:15 which is: the fact,
an abstraction of the fact,
26:20 which is non-fact,
26:23 and try to live the non-fact.
26:28 A: Yes. Immediately
that produces conflict,
26:30 because it cannot be done.
K: That produces conflict,
26:32 misery, confusion,
all the rest of it.
26:35 Why does the mind do it?
26:40 The mind does it, because
it doesn't know what to do
26:43 with this fact of violence.
26:46 Therefore
in abstracting the idea
26:51 of not being violent,
postpones action.
26:57 I am trying not to be violent,
27:01 and in the mean time
I am jolly well violent.
27:05 A: Yes.
27:07 K: And it is
an escape from the fact.
27:12 All abstractions
are escape from the fact.
27:17 So the mind does it,
27:19 because it is incapable
of dealing with the fact,
27:25 or it doesn't want
to deal with the fact,
27:28 or it is lazy and says,
27:31 'Well, I will try and
do it some other day'.
27:35 All those are involved,
when it withdraws from the fact.
27:41 Now, in the same way,
27:44 the fact is:
our relationship is non-existent.
27:51 I may say to my wife,
I love you,
27:53 etc., etc.,
but it's non-existent.
27:57 Because I have an image
about her
27:59 and she has an image about me.
28:01 So,
on abstractions we have lived.
28:06 A: It just occurred to me
that the word 'fact' itself
28:11 - which there have been no
end of disquisitions about...
28:15 K: Of course. The fact: 'what is'.
Let's call it 'what is'.
28:18 A: But actually it means
something done.
28:22 K: Done, yes.
A: Not the record of something,
28:25 but actually something
done, performed, act, act.
28:31 And it's that sense of 'fact'
28:33 that with our use
of the word 'fact'.
28:37 'Give me facts and figures',
we'd say in English,
28:39 give me facts, we don't
mean that when we say it.
28:42 K: No.
A: No. No.
28:45 One probably wouldn't need
28:47 facts and figures
in that abstract sense.
28:52 K: You see, sir, this reveals
a tremendous lot.
28:55 A: I follow.
28:57 K: When you feel responsible,
28:59 you feel responsible
for education
29:02 of your children, not only
your children - children.
29:09 Are you educating them
29:13 to conform to a society,
29:16 are you educating them
to merely acquire a job?
29:21 Are you educating them
to the continuity of what has been?
29:30 Are you educating them
to live in abstractions
29:37 as we are doing now?
29:40 So what is your responsibility
as a father, mother
29:46 - it doesn't matter who you are -
responsible in education,
29:51 for the education
of a human being.
29:59 That's one problem.
What is your responsibility,
30:05 - if you feel responsible -
for human growth,
30:13 human culture, human goodness?
30:18 What's your responsibility
to the earth,
30:25 to nature, you follow?
30:26 It is a tremendous thing
to feel responsible.
30:35 A: This just came to mind,
which I must ask you about.
30:45 The word 'negation' in the book
that we looked at earlier,
30:49 - which is continuous
with what we are saying -
30:55 I think,
is itself rather endangered
31:02 by the usual notion
that we have of negation,
31:08 which is simply a prohibition,
which is not meant.
31:11 Which is not meant.
K: No, No. Of course not.
31:15 A: When we reviewed that
incident in the Gita between
31:19 the general and his charioteer,
the lord Krishna,
31:26 the lord's response
was a negation
31:32 without it being a prohibition...
31:35 K: Quite, quite.
A: ...wasn't it?
31:36 K: I don't know. I am...
31:38 A: No, No. I mean
in terms of what we just
31:40 got through to saying.
K: Yes, of course.
31:45 A: There is a difference then
31:50 rearing a child in terms of
31:56 relating to the child
radically in the present,
32:00 in which negation - as is
mentioned in the book here
32:04 that we went through -
32:06 is continuously and immediately
and actively present.
32:14 And simply walking around
saying to oneself,
32:18 'Now I am rearing a child,
32:19 therefore
I mustn't do these things,
32:20 and I mustn't do those things,
I must do that'.
32:22 Exactly.
An entirely different thing.
32:25 But one has to break the habit
32:29 of seeing negation as prohibition.
K: Of course.
32:31 And also, you see,
with responsibility
32:35 goes love, care, attention.
32:41 A: Yes. Earlier I was
going to ask you about
32:43 care in relation to responsibility.
32:48 Something that would
flow immediately,
32:51 naturally.
K: Naturally, sir.
32:53 A: Not that I have to project
32:54 that I need to care for later
and so I won't forget,
32:58 but I would be with it.
33:00 K: You see, that involves
a great deal too, because
33:05 the mother
depends on the child,
33:10 and the child
depends on the mother,
33:12 - or the father,
whatever it is.
33:14 So that dependence
is cultivated:
33:19 not only between the
father and the mother,
33:23 but depend on a teacher,
33:27 depend on somebody
to tell you what to do,
33:33 depend on your guru.
33:38 You follow?
A: Yes, yes, I follow.
33:40 K: Gradually the child, the man is
incapable of standing alone,
33:50 and therefore he says,
I must depend on my wife
33:53 for my comfort, for my sex,
33:55 for my this or that,
and the other thing,
33:57 I am lost without her.
34:00 And I am lost
without my guru,
34:03 without my teacher.
It becomes so ridiculous!
34:10 So when the feeling
of responsibility exists,
34:17 all this disappears.
34:22 You are responsible
34:26 for your behaviour,
34:27 for the way you bring up
your children,
34:29 for the way you treat a dog,
34:32 a neighbour, nature,
everything is in your hands.
34:38 Therefore you have to become
34:40 astonishingly careful
what you do.
34:43 Careful, not, 'I must not do this,
and I must do that'.
34:47 Care, that means affection,
34:49 that means
consideration, diligence.
34:57 All that
goes with responsibility,
35:02 which present society
totally denies.
35:09 When we begin to discuss
the various gurus
35:13 that are imported
in this country,
35:16 that's what they are doing,
35:17 creating such mischief,
35:21 making those people,
unfortunate, thoughtless people,
35:27 who want excitement,
join them,
35:28 do all kinds of ridiculous
nonsensical things.
35:35 So, we come back:
35:40 freedom implies responsibility.
35:45 And therefore freedom,
35:48 means care, diligence,
not negligence.
35:53 Not doing what you want to do,
35:57 which is what is happening
in America.
35:59 Do what you want to do,
36:04 this permissiveness is just
doing what you want to do,
36:07 which is not freedom,
36:11 which breeds irresponsibility.
36:20 I met the other day
36:22 in Delhi, New Delhi, a girl,
36:28 and she's become a Tibetan.
You follow, sir?
36:35 Born in America, being a
Christian, brought up in all that,
36:38 throws all that aside,
goes, becomes a Tibetan,
36:41 which is the same thing
in different words.
36:43 A: Yes. As a Tibetan coming
over here and doing it.
36:47 K: It's all ridiculous!
A: Yes.
36:49 K: And I've known her some years,
36:52 I said, 'Where is your child?'
36:54 who was six. "Oh,' she said,
36:56 'I've left him
with other liberated Tibetans'.
37:02 I said, 'At six?
You are the mother'.
37:05 She said, 'Yes,
he is in very good hands'.
37:10 I come back next year
and I ask, 'Where is your child?'
37:13 'Oh, he has become a
Tibetan monk,' who is seven.
37:16 He is seven years old and
has become a Tibetan monk!
37:21 You understand, sir?
A: Oh yes, I do.
37:25 K: The irresponsibility of it,
37:29 because the mother feels,
'They know better than I do,
37:35 I am Tibetan and the lamas
will help me to become..'.
37:40 A: It puts a rather sinister cast
37:42 on that Biblical statement:
37:44 train up a child in
the way he should go,
37:47 and when he is old
he will not depart from it.
37:50 There is a sinister note in there,
isn't there?
37:52 K: Absolutely.
37:53 So this is going on
in the world all the time.
37:58 And a man who is really serious
negates that,
38:06 because he understands
the implications,
38:09 the inwardness of all that.
38:13 So he has to deny it.
38:16 It isn't a question
of will or choice,
38:19 he says that's too silly,
too absurd.
38:27 So freedom means responsibility
and infinite care.
38:37 A: The phrase that you just
spoke, 'infinite care...'
38:40 K: Yes, sir.
38:43 A: would be totally impossible
38:45 to what we mean
by a finite being
38:51 unless the finite being
did not betray the present.
38:56 K: I know, sir.
A: 'With not betraying the present'
38:58 is a negative again.
It is a negation again.
39:01 With not betraying the present.
39:04 Which is not to say what
will happen if it is not...
39:07 K: Sir, the word 'present',
the now, is rather difficult.
39:12 A: Oh yes.
39:13 Philosophers love to call it
the specious present.
39:16 K: I don't know
what philosophers say.
39:18 I don't want to enter into
all that speculative thinking.
39:21 But the fact, what is the 'now'?
39:26 What is the act of now,
the present?
39:34 To understand the present
I must understand the past,
39:38 not history, I don't mean that.
A: Oh no, no, no.
39:40 K: Understand myself as the past.
I am the past.
39:44 A: In terms of what we said
earlier about knowledge.
39:46 K: Yes. I am that.
A: Yes.
39:50 K: Therefore I must understand
the past, which is me,
39:56 the 'me' is the known
40:00 - the 'me' is not the unknown,
40:02 I can imagine
it is the unknown
40:04 but the fact is,
the 'what is' is the known.
40:08 That's me.
I must understand myself.
40:12 If I don't, the now is merely
40:14 a continuation,
in modified form, of the past.
40:20 Therefore it is not the now,
not the present.
40:27 Therefore the 'me' is the tradition,
the knowledge,
40:33 in all the complicated
40:38 cunning - you follow? -
all that,
40:39 the despairs, the anxieties,
the desire for success, fear,
40:45 pleasure, all that is me.
40:49 A: Since we are still
involved in a discussion
40:52 about relationship here,
40:55 might we return a moment
to where we were
40:58 with respect to education
and relationship.
41:03 I want to be sure that
I have understood you here.
41:09 Let us say that one were
fortunate enough to have a school
41:14 where what you are
pointing to was going on.
41:19 K: We are going to do,
we are doing it.
41:20 We have got seven schools.
A: Marvellous. Marvellous.
41:23 Well, we'll have a chance
to talk about that, won't we?
41:26 K: Yes.
A: Good, good.
41:32 If I'm current here,
it would seem that
41:40 if the teacher is totally
present to the child,
41:47 the child will feel this.
41:54 The child won't have
to be instructed
41:57 in what this means then.
42:01 Is that right?
K: Yes, but one has to find out
42:04 what is the relationship
of the teacher
42:06 to the student.
A: Yes, yes. I quite see that.
42:10 Of course.
K: What is the relationship?
42:12 Is he merely an informer
42:17 giving information to the child?
42:21 Any machine can do that.
42:22 A: Oh yes, the library
is filled with it.
42:23 K: Any machine can do that.
Or what is his relationship?
42:27 Does he put himself
on a pedestal up there
42:32 and his student down there?
42:35 Or is the relationship between
the teacher and the student,
42:41 is it a relationship,
in which there is learning
42:50 on the part of the teacher
as well as the student.
42:53 Learning.
A: Yes.
42:55 K: Not I have learnt
and I am going to teach you.
43:01 Therefore in that
there is a division
43:05 between the teacher
and the student.
43:06 But when there is learning
on the part of the teacher,
43:11 as well as on the part
of the student,
43:13 there is no division.
Both are learning.
43:17 A: Yes.
43:19 K: And therefore
that relationship
43:23 brings about a companionship.
43:26 A: A sharing.
K: A sharing.
43:27 A: A sharing. Yes.
K: Taking a journey together.
43:33 And therefore an infinite
care on both sides.
43:45 So it means,
how is the teacher
43:49 to teach mathematics,
or whatever it is, to the student,
43:54 and yet teach it in such a way
43:59 that you awaken the intelligence
in the child,
44:02 not about mathematics.
44:04 A: No, no, of course
not, no. Yes. Yes.
44:07 K: And how do you bring
this act of teaching,
44:17 in which there is order,
because mathematics means order,
44:23 the highest form of order
is mathematics.
44:29 Now, how will you convey
to the student,
44:33 in teaching mathematics,
44:35 that there should be
order in his life?
44:42 Not order according to a blueprint.
That's not order.
44:50 You follow?
A: Yes, yes.
44:52 K: Therefore it brings...
it's a creative teaching,
44:57 - not creative - it's an act
of learning all the time.
45:05 So it's a living thing.
45:11 Not something I have learnt
45:12 and I am going
to impart it to you.
45:16 A: This reminds me of a little essay
I read many years ago
45:20 by Simone Weil which she called
'On Academic Studies'
45:23 or some title like that,
and she said
45:28 that every one who teaches
a subject is responsible for
45:36 teaching the student
45:41 the relation between
what they are studying
45:44 and the students making
a pure act of attention.
45:47 K: I know, of course, of course.
45:49 A: And that,
if this doesn't take place,
45:51 this whole thing
doesn't mean a thing.
45:53 K: Sir, that's just it.
45:54 A: And when one stops to think
what would a teacher say,
45:58 if a student walked up
and looked at him and said,
46:00 'Fine, we're studying
calculus right now.
46:04 Now you tell me how I am to
see this that I am pursuing
46:10 in relation to my making
a pure act of attention'.
46:15 It would be likely
a little embarrassing
46:17 except
for the most unusual person,
46:19 who had this grasp of the present.
K: Quite.
46:24 So sir, that's just it.
46:26 What is the relationship
of the teacher
46:29 to the student in education?
46:34 Is he training him
merely to conform,
46:39 is he training him
to cultivate mere memory,
46:44 like a machine?
46:46 Is he training, or is he helping him
to learn about life,
46:54 not just about sex - the life,
46:58 the whole immensity of living,
47:01 the complexity of it?
47:05 Which we are not doing.
A: No.
47:09 No, even in our language,
47:10 we refer students
to subject matters.
47:16 They take this, they take that,
they take the other,
47:18 and in fact,
there are prerequisites
47:22 for taking these other things.
47:24 And this builds a notion
of education, which
47:29 has absolutely no
relationship to what...
47:31 K: None at all.
47:32 A: And yet, and yet amazingly,
in the catalogues
47:37 of colleges and universities
across the country
47:40 there is in the first page
or so a rather pious remark
47:48 about the relation between
their going to school
47:52 and the values of civilisation.
47:55 And that turns out to be
learning a series of ideas.
48:00 Well, I don't know if
they do it any more,
48:02 but they used to put the
word 'character' in there.
48:04 They probably decided
that's unpopular
48:06 and might very well have
dropped that out by now,
48:08 I'm not sure. Yes, yes. Yes,
48:10 I'm following what you are saying.
48:12 K: So, sir,
when you feel responsible,
48:20 there is a flowering
of real affection,
48:24 you understand, sir?
48:27 A flowering of care
for a child,
48:35 and you don't train him,
or condition him
48:40 to go and kill another for
the sake of your country.
48:45 You follow?
All that is involved in it.
48:55 So, we come to a point,
where a human being,
49:00 as he is now,
49:02 so conditioned
to be irresponsible,
49:11 what are the serious people
going to do
49:15 with the irresponsible people?
49:19 You understand?
49:23 Education, politics, religion,
49:26 everything is making
human beings irresponsible.
49:32 I am not exaggerating.
This is so.
49:36 A: Oh no, you are not
exaggerating. Yes.
49:39 K: Now, I see this,
as a human being,
49:42 I say, what am I to do?
49:45 You follow, sir?
49:47 What is my responsibility
in face of the irresponsible?
49:54 A: Well, if it's to start
anywhere, as we say in English,
49:56 it must start at home.
49:57 It would have to start with me.
K: Yes, at home.
49:59 So I say, that's the whole point.
50:01 I have to start with me.
A: Right.
50:04 K: Then from that
the question arises:
50:07 then you can't do anything
about the irresponsible.
50:12 A: No. Exactly.
K: Ah, no, sir.
50:15 Something strange
takes place.
50:18 A: Oh, I misunderstood you.
I'm sorry.
50:20 What I meant by replying there
50:22 is that I don't attack
the irresponsible.
50:25 K: No. No.
A: No, no. Yes, go ahead, yes.
50:27 K: Something strange
takes place, which is:
50:31 consciousness,
50:38 the irresponsible
consciousness is one thing,
50:43 and the consciousness of
responsibility is another.
50:47 Now, when the human being
is totally responsible,
50:55 that responsibility,
50:58 enters
into the irresponsible mind.
51:03 I don't know if I'm
conveying anything.
51:05 A: Yes. No, no, go ahead.
51:09 K: Sir, look.
I'm irresponsible.
51:11 Suppose I'm irresponsible,
you are responsible.
51:16 You can't do anything
consciously with me.
51:22 Because the more you actively
51:25 operate on me, I resist.
51:29 A: That's right, that's right.
51:31 That's what I meant
by no attacking.
51:33 K: No attacking.
I react violently to you.
51:36 I build a wall against you.
51:37 I hurt you.
I do all kinds of things.
51:40 But you see that you cannot
do anything consciously,
51:46 actively,
let's put it that way.
51:48 A: Designedly.
K: Designedly, planned,
51:52 which is what they are all
trying to do.
51:56 But if you can talk to me,
to my unconscious,
52:06 because the unconscious
is much more active,
52:09 much more alert, much
more... sees the danger
52:12 much quicker
than the conscious.
52:15 So it is much more sensitive.
52:18 So if you can talk to me,
to the unconscious,
52:22 that operates.
52:26 So you don't actively, designedly
attack the irresponsible.
52:35 They have done it.
52:37 And they have made
a mess of it.
52:39 A: Oh yes, it compounds,
complicates the thing further.
52:41 K: Whereas if you talk to him,
you talk to me,
52:46 but your whole
inward intention is
52:50 to show
how irresponsible I am,
52:52 what responsibility means
52:54 - you follow? -
you care.
52:57 In other words, you care for me.
A: Yes, yes.
53:00 I was chuckling because
53:02 the complete and total opposite
crossed my mind,
53:04 and it just seemed
so absolutely absurd.
53:08 Yes.
53:11 K: You care for me,
because I am irresponsible.
53:15 You follow?
A: Exactly.
53:17 K: Therefore you care for me.
53:18 And therefore you are watching
53:20 not to hurt me,
not to... you follow?
53:24 In that way you
53:25 penetrate very, very
deeply into my unconscious.
53:32 And that operates unknowingly,
when suddenly I say,
53:37 'By Jove, how irresponsible
I am' - you follow? -
53:38 that operates.
53:44 I have seen this, sir,
53:49 in operation, because
I've talked for 50 years,
53:54 unfortunately or fortunately,
to large audiences,
53:58 tremendous resistance
to anything new.
54:04 Say, if I said, 'Don't
read sacred books',
54:08 which I say all the time,
54:10 because you are just
conforming, obeying.
54:14 You are not living. You are
living according to some book
54:17 that you have read.
54:18 Immediately there is resistance:
'Who are you to tell us?'
54:24 A: Not to do something.
K: Not to do this or to do that.
54:27 So I say, all right.
54:28 I go on pointing out,
pointing out.
54:32 I'm not trying to change them.
54:35 I'm not doing propaganda,
54:37 because I don't believe
in propaganda. It's a lie.
54:41 So I say, look,
54:43 look what you do when
you are irresponsible.
54:45 You are destroying
your children.
54:49 You send them to war
54:52 to be killed and to be maimed,
and to kill and to maim.
54:57 Is that an act of love,
is that affection, is that care?
55:00 Why do you do it?
And I go into it.
55:05 They get bewildered.
55:07 They don't know what to do!
55:08 You follow, sir?
So it begins to slowly seep in.
55:15 A: Well, at first
it's such a shock.
55:20 It sounds positively
subversive to some.
55:23 K: Oh, absolutely,
absolutely subversive.
55:25 A: Of, course, of course. Yes.
55:31 K: So we enter now
into something, which is:
55:35 my relationship to another,
55:39 when there is
total responsibility,
55:43 in which freedom
and care go together,
55:51 the mind has no image
in relationship at all.
56:00 Because the image
is the division.
56:05 Where there is care,
there is no image.
56:12 A: This would lead us into
56:15 what perhaps later
we could pursue:
56:21 love.
56:22 K: Ah, that's a tremendous thing.
A: Yes, yes.
56:26 K: We have to go into it.
A: Could we
56:28 lay a few words before that,
I don't know necessarily that
56:35 next time we would do that,
56:37 but it would come naturally.
56:40 I've been listening
to what you have been saying,
56:42 and it's occurred to me
that, if one is responsible
56:51 and care is continuous with that,
one would not fear.
56:58 One could not fear.
57:01 Not would not, could not,
K: Could not, you're not capable.
57:04 A: ...could not fear.
57:06 K: You see, that means really,
one must understand fear.
57:13 A: One must understand fear.
57:15 K: And also
the pursuit of pleasure.
57:19 Those two go together.
They are not two separate things.
57:24 A: What I have learned here
in our discussion is that
57:32 what it is, if I have
followed you correctly,
57:35 that we should turn ourselves
toward understanding,
57:39 is not what are called values.
K: Oh no!
57:43 A: We don't understand love.
57:46 We understand
all those things
57:48 which we catch ourselves into,
57:53 that militate against
any possibility whatsoever.
57:58 This is what's so hard to hear,
58:00 to be told that
there just is no possibility.
58:04 This produces immense terror.
58:09 Do you think next time
when we converse together
58:14 we could begin at that point
where we could discuss fear?
58:17 K: Oh yes.
A: Good.
58:18 K: But, sir, before we enter
fear, there is something
58:22 which we should
discuss very carefully:
58:28 what is order in freedom?
58:36 A: Fine, fine, yes, yes.