Krishnamurti_EN

Krishnamurti Subtitles

What is a responsible human being?

San Diego - 19 February 1974

Conversation with A.W. Anderson 4

0:37	Krishnamurti in Dialogue
	with Dr. Allan W. Anderson

0:42	J. Krishnamurti was
	born in South India

0:45	and educated in England.

0:47	For the past 40 years

0:48	he has been speaking
	in the United States,

0:51	Europe, India, Australia,
	and other parts of the world.

0:55	From the outset of his life's work

0:56	he repudiated all connections

0:59	with organised
	religions and ideologies

1:01	and said that his only concern was

1:03	to set man absolutely
	unconditionally free.

1:07	He is the author of many books,

1:09	among them The Awakening
	of Intelligence,

1:12	The Urgency of Change,

1:14	Freedom From the Known,
	and The Flight of the Eagle.

1:19	This is one of a series of dialogues

1:21	between Krishnamurti and
	Dr. Allan W. Anderson,

1:24	who is professor of
	religious studies

1:26	at San Diego State University

1:28	where he teaches Indian
	and Chinese scriptures

1:31	and the oracular tradition.

1:33	Dr. Anderson, a published poet,

1:35	received his degree
	from Columbia University

1:38	and the Union Theological Seminary.

1:41	He has been honoured with
	the distinguished Teaching Award

1:44	from the California
	State University.

1:47	A: Mr. Krishnamurti,
	just at the point

1:49	where we left last time
	in our conversation

1:54	we had raised the question
	of the distinction between

1:58	the notion that I must be
	responsible for my action

2:02	and... just being responsible.
	K: Right, sir.

2:07	A: I was sitting here
	thinking to myself,

2:11	'oh why can't we go on',

2:13	so perhaps we could start
	at that point.

2:16	Would that be agreeable?
	K: I think, sir,

2:17	there is
	a very definite distinction

2:20	between responsible for
	and being responsible.

2:26	Being responsible for
	implies a direction,

2:34	a directed will.

2:39	But the feeling of responsibility
	implies

2:46	responsibility for everything,
	not in a direction,

2:50	in any one particular direction.

2:54	Responsible for education,
	responsible for politics,

3:00	responsible the way I live,

3:02	to be responsible
	for my behaviour,

3:05	it's a total feeling
	of complete responsibility

3:11	which is the ground in
	which action takes place.

3:20	A: I think then
	this takes us back

3:22	to this business of crisis
	we were talking about.

3:25	If the crisis is continuous,
	then it's misleading to say

3:33	I'm responsible for my action,

3:35	because I've put the
	thing out there again

3:40	and it becomes an occasion
	for my

3:43	confusing what is at hand,

3:45	that requires to be done,

3:46	and the concept of
	this notion of my action,

3:50	because I am my action.

3:52	K: Yes, that's just it, that's it.
	A: I am it.

3:54	K: That means,
	the feeling of responsibility

4:01	expresses itself

4:04	politically, religiously,
	educationally, in business,

4:08	in the whole of life, responsible
	for the total behaviour,

4:18	not in a particular direction.

4:22	I think there is great deal
	of difference when one says

4:26	'I am responsible
	for my action.'

4:32	That means you are
	responsible for your action

4:35	according to the idea

4:37	that you have preconceived
	about action.

4:41	A: Exactly. Yes.

4:45	People sometimes will say that

4:51	the child is free
	because it's not responsible.

4:55	K: Oh, child is...
	You can't take a child into...

4:59	A: No, of course not.

5:00	But I think sometimes,
	when we say this,

5:06	we have this nostalgia
	for the past

5:09	as though our freedom
	would be freedom from constraint,

5:14	whereas if one is his action,

5:17	genuinely, absolutely...
	K: There is no restraint,

5:19	there is no restraint.
	A: There isn't any restraint at all.

5:21	K: Not at all.
	A: Right. Right.

5:23	K: Because, look.

5:26	If one has this total feeling
	of responsibility,

5:32	then what is
	your responsibility

5:35	with regard to your children?

5:40	It means education.

5:43	Are you educating them
	to bring about a mind

5:48	that conforms to the pattern,

5:51	which the society
	has established,

5:55	which means you accept

5:57	the immorality of the society
	that is.

6:03	If you feel
	totally responsible,

6:06	you are responsible
	from the moment it's born

6:09	till the moment it dies.

6:14	The right kind of education,

6:17	not the education of

6:19	making the child conform,

6:23	the worship of success and
	the division of nationalities

6:29	which brings about war
	- you follow? -

6:31	all that
	you are responsible for,

6:35	not just
	in a particular direction.

6:38	Even if you are
	in a particular direction

6:41	- I'm responsible for my act -

6:43	what is your action based on?

6:46	How can you be responsible

6:49	when you, when your action
	is the result of a formula

6:55	that has been
	handed down to you?

7:00	A: Yes, I quite follow what you mean.
	K: Like communists,

7:04	they say
	the state is responsible.

7:11	Worship the state,
	the state is the god,

7:17	and you are responsible
	to the state.

7:21	Which means they have conceived
	what the state should be,

7:28	formulated ideationally,
	and, according to that, you act.

7:35	That is not
	a responsible action.

7:37	That's irresponsible action.

7:42	Whereas action means
	the doing now.

7:46	The active present
	of the verb 'to do'

7:50	which is to do now,
	the acting now.

7:53	The acting now
	must be free from the past.

7:59	Otherwise
	you are just repeating,

8:03	repetition,
	traditionally carrying on.

8:07	That's not...

8:08	A: I'm reminded of
	something in the I Ching

8:14	that I think is a reflection

8:18	of this principle
	that you pointed to

8:21	-I don't mean principle
	in the abstract.

8:26	If I am quoting it correctly,

8:28	from one of
	the standard translations,

8:30	it goes like this:

8:32	'The superior man...'
	- by which it means the free man,

8:36	not hierarchically structured -

8:41	'...does not let his thoughts
	go beyond his situation'.

8:46	Which would mean that he simply
	would be present as he is,

8:57	not being responsible
	to something out there

9:01	that is going to tell him
	how to be responsible,

9:03	or what he should do,

9:07	but upon the instant that he is,
	he is always...

9:12	K: Responsible.
	A: ...responsible.

9:13	K: Always.
	A: He simply does not

9:15	let his thoughts
	go beyond his situation.

9:18	That goes back to
	that word 'negation'.

9:19	Because if he won't

9:20	let his thoughts
	go beyond his situation,

9:23	he has negated the possibility

9:24	for their doing so, hasn't he?
	K: Yes.

9:26	Quite.
	A: Oh yes, yes, yes, I see that.

9:31	The reason that I'm referring
	to these other quotations

9:35	is because,

9:42	if what you are saying is true

9:47	and if what they say is true,

9:51	- quite without respect to
	how they are understood

9:54	or not understood -

9:55	then there must be
	something in common here,

9:59	and I realise that
	your emphasis is practical,

10:04	eminently practical,
	upon the act.

10:08	But it does seem to me to be
	of great value, if one could

10:17	converse, commune with
	the great literatures,

10:22	which have so many statements
	- and the complaint

10:25	about the fact
	that they are not understood.

10:28	I see that as a great gain.
	K: Sir,

10:37	I have not read any books,

10:42	any literature in the sense...

10:45	A: Yes, I understand.
	K: ...in that sense.

10:50	Suppose
	there is no book in the world.

10:54	A: The problem is the same.
	K: The problem is the same.

10:57	A: Of course, of course.

10:59	K: There is no leader,
	no teacher,

11:02	nobody to tell you do this,
	do that,

11:04	don't do this, don't do that.

11:05	You are there!

11:08	You feel totally,
	completely responsible.

11:13	A: Right. Yes.

11:16	K: Then you have to have
	an astonishingly

11:20	active clear brain,

11:25	not befuddled, not puzzled,
	not bewildered.

11:29	You must have a mind
	that thinks clearly!

11:33	And you cannot think clearly,

11:35	if you are rooted in the past.

11:39	You are merely continuing
	- modified perhaps -

11:43	through the present to the future.
	That's all.

11:47	So from that
	arises the question:

11:52	what is the responsibility
	in human relationship?

12:01	A: Yes. Now we are
	back to relationships.

12:03	K: Because that is
	the basic foundation of life:

12:14	relationship.
	That is, to be related,

12:17	to be in contact with.

12:20	A: We are presently related.
	K: Related.

12:23	A: This is what is.
	K: Yes.

12:26	Now, what is
	human relationship?

12:31	If I feel totally responsible,

12:38	how does that responsibility
	express in relationship:

12:45	to my children,
	if I have children,

12:48	to my family, to my neighbour,

12:51	whether the neighbour
	is next door

12:54	or ten thousand miles away,

12:56	he is still my neighbour!

12:59	So what is my responsibility?

13:02	What is the responsibility
	of a man who feels totally,

13:10	completely involved
	in this feeling

13:15	of being a light to himself
	and totally responsible?

13:23	I think
	this is a question, sir,

13:25	that has to be investigated.

13:30	A: Yes,
	you know what I'm thinking?

13:32	I'm thinking

13:36	that only a person responsible,
	as you have said it,

13:42	can make what we call,
	in our tongue, a clean decision.

13:46	K: Of course, of course.

13:48	A: So many decisions
	are frayed.

13:56	K: Sir,
	I would like to ask this:

14:00	is there decision at all?

14:06	Decision implies choice.

14:11	A: Yes.

14:12	K: Choice implies a mind that's
	confused, between this and that.

14:17	A: It means, I think, radically
	to make a cut, to cut off.

14:22	K: Yes, but a mind that
	sees clearly has no choice.

14:28	It doesn't decide. It acts.

14:32	A: Yes. Doesn't this take us back

14:35	to this word 'negation' again?

14:36	K: Yes, of course.

14:38	A: Might it not be
	that a clean decision

14:40	could be interpreted
	in terms of what takes place

14:44	at this point of negation

14:46	from which flows
	a different action.

14:49	K: But I don't like to use
	that word 'decision'

14:53	because, deciding
	between this and that.

14:59	A: You don't want to use it

15:01	because of the implications
	in it of conflict?

15:04	K: Conflict, choice,

15:09	we think we are free
	because we choose.

15:13	We can choose, right?
	A: Yes.

15:16	K: Is free a mind
	that is capable of choice?

15:22	Or is a mind that is not free,
	that chooses?

15:29	The choice implies
	between this and that.

15:34	Obviously.

15:36	Which means,
	the mind doesn't see clearly

15:42	and therefore there is choice.

15:44	The choice exists
	when there is confusion.

15:48	A: Yes, yes, yes.

15:49	K: A mind that sees clearly,
	there is no choice. It is doing.

15:56	I think this is where

16:02	we have got into rather trouble,

16:03	when we say
	we are free to choose,

16:06	choice implies freedom.
	I say, on the contrary!

16:11	Choice implies
	a mind that is confused

16:14	and therefore not free.

16:18	A: What occurs to me now is

16:21	the difference
	between regarding freedom

16:28	as a property or quality of action
	rather than a state.

16:33	Yes. But we have the notion

16:35	that freedom is a state,
	a condition,

16:40	which is quite different
	from the emphasis

16:43	that you are leading me into.

16:45	K: Yes, that's right.
	A: Yes, yes, yes.

16:48	K: So let's come back to this,
	sir, which is

16:51	what is the responsibility
	of a human being

16:57	- who feels this sense -
	in relationship?

17:05	Because relationship is life,

17:07	relationship is
	the foundation of existence.

17:13	Relationship is absolutely
	necessary,

17:17	otherwise you can't exist.

17:19	Relationship means
	co-operation.

17:22	Everything is involved
	in that one word.

17:26	Relation means love,
	generosity,

17:29	and, you know,
	all that's implied.

17:32	Now, what is a human responsibility
	in relationship?

17:42	A: If we were genuinely
	and completely sharing,

17:47	then responsibility would
	be present fully, is it not?

17:53	K: Yes, but how does it
	express itself in relationship?

18:01	Not only between you and me now,
	but between man and woman,

18:05	between... my neighbour,

18:10	relationship, sir,
	to everything, to nature.

18:13	What's my relationship
	to nature?

18:18	Would I go and kill
	the baby seals?

18:23	A: No, no.

18:28	K: Would I go and destroy
	human beings

18:31	calling them enemies?

18:36	Would I destroy nature, everything,
	- which man is doing now?

18:42	He is destroying the earth,
	the air, the sea, everything!

18:46	Because he feels
	totally irresponsible.

18:51	A: He sees what is out there
	as something to operate on.

18:56	K: Yes. Which is,
	he kills the baby seal,

19:00	which I saw the other day
	on a film,

19:02	it's an appalling thing.

19:03	And they are Christians,
	they call themselves Christians,

19:06	going and killing
	a little thing

19:09	for some lady
	to put on the fur.

19:16	And - you follow? - totally
	immoral, the whole thing is.

19:21	So, to come back, I say,
	how does this responsibility

19:27	show itself in my life?

19:32	I am married
	- I am not,

19:35	but suppose I am married -
	what is my responsibility?

19:40	Am I related to my wife?

19:45	A: The record
	doesn't seem very good.

19:47	K: Not only record, actuality.

19:49	Am I related to my wife?
	A: Right.

19:51	K: Or am I related to my wife

19:53	according to the image
	I have built about her?

19:59	And I am responsible

20:00	for that image
	- you follow, sir?

20:02	A: Yes, because my input
	has been continuous

20:05	with respect to that image.
	K: Yes.

20:06	So, I have no relationship
	with my wife,

20:12	if I have an image about her.

20:15	Or if I have an image
	about myself

20:18	when I want to be successful,

20:19	and
	all the rest of that business.

20:22	A: Since we were talking
	about 'now', being now,

20:29	there is a point of contact

20:33	between what you are saying

20:35	and the phrase that you used

20:37	in one
	of our earlier conversations

20:40	'the betrayal of the present'.
	K: Absolutely.

20:45	You see,
	that is the whole point, sir.

20:48	If I am related to you,

20:53	I have no image about you,
	or you have no image about me,

20:58	then we have relationship.

21:03	We have no relationship

21:04	if I have an image
	about myself or about you.

21:09	Our images
	have a relationship,

21:13	when in actuality
	we have no relationship.

21:17	I might sleep
	with my wife or some,

21:19	but it is not a relationship.

21:24	It is a physical contact,

21:26	sensory excitement,
	nothing else.

21:33	My responsibility is
	not to have an image!

21:40	A: This brings to mind,

21:47	I think one of the loveliest

21:50	statements
	in the English language

21:52	which
	I should like to understand

21:55	in terms of what
	we have been sharing.

21:59	These lines from
	Keats' poem 'Endymion',

22:05	there is something miraculous,

22:07	marvellous in this statement,

22:09	it seems to me,

22:10	that is immediately related
	to what you have been saying:

22:15	'A thing of beauty
	is a joy forever'.

22:20	And then he says,
	- as though that's not enough -

22:24	he says,
	'Its loveliness increases'!

22:29	And then as though that's
	not enough, he says,

22:34	'It will never pass
	into nothingness'.

22:39	Now, when the present
	is not betrayed,

22:46	it's full with a fullness
	that keeps on abounding.

22:54	K: Yes, quite, I understand.

22:55	A: Would I be correct in that?
	K: Yes, I think so.

22:58	A: I think that's truly
	what he must be saying,

23:01	and one of the things too
	that passed my mind was

23:07	he calls it a thing of beauty.

23:09	He doesn't call it
	a beautiful thing.

23:11	It's a thing of beauty as
	though it's a child of beauty.

23:17	A marvellous continuity
	between this.

23:20	Not: it's beautiful because
	I think it's beautiful,

23:22	and therefore it's outside.

23:27	Yes, yes, yes.

23:29	K: We come back,
	I must stick to this,

23:30	because this is
	really quite important.

23:33	Because,
	go where you will,

23:40	there is no relationship
	between human beings,

23:46	and that is the tragedy,

23:49	and from that arises
	all our conflict, violence,

23:54	the whole business.

23:56	So, if... - not if - ...when there is
	this responsibility,

24:02	the feeling
	of this responsibility,

24:04	it translates itself
	in relationship.

24:08	It doesn't matter
	with whom it is.

24:12	A freedom from the known,
	which is the image.

24:21	And therefore in that freedom
	goodness flowers.

24:27	A: Goodness flowers.

24:29	K: And that is the beauty.
	And that is beauty.

24:33	Beauty is not an abstract thing,

24:36	but it goes with goodness.

24:39	Goodness in behaviour, goodness
	in conduct, goodness in action.

24:45	A: Sometimes while
	we have been talking

24:47	I have started a sentence
	with 'if,'

24:49	and
	I have looked into your eyes

24:52	and immediately I got it out,

24:54	I knew
	I had said the wrong thing.

24:56	It's just like a minute
	ago you said 'if',

24:57	and you said, 'no, when'.

25:01	We are always 'if-ing' it up.
	K: I know. 'If-ing' it up!

25:04	A: It is awful.
	K: I know, sir.

25:07	We are always dealing
	with abstractions

25:10	rather than with reality.

25:12	A: Immediately we 'if',

25:15	a construction is out there,

25:16	which we endlessly talk about.
	K: That's right.

25:20	A: And we get cleverer
	and cleverer about it,

25:23	and it has nothing to do
	with anything!

25:27	Yes, yes, yes.

25:29	K: So, how does this responsibility
	translate itself

25:35	in human behaviour?

25:39	You follow, sir?
	A: Yes.

25:44	There would be
	an end to violence.

25:47	K: Absolutely.
	A: Wouldn't taper off.

25:54	K: You see
	what we have done, sir.

25:57	We are violent human beings,

26:00	sexually, morally,
	in every way,

26:03	we are violent human beings,

26:05	and not being able to resolve it,
	we have created an ideal

26:12	of not being violent,

26:15	which is: the fact,
	an abstraction of the fact,

26:20	which is non-fact,

26:23	and try to live the non-fact.

26:28	A: Yes. Immediately
	that produces conflict,

26:30	because it cannot be done.
	K: That produces conflict,

26:32	misery, confusion,
	all the rest of it.

26:35	Why does the mind do it?

26:40	The mind does it, because
	it doesn't know what to do

26:43	with this fact of violence.

26:46	Therefore
	in abstracting the idea

26:51	of not being violent,
	postpones action.

26:57	I am trying not to be violent,

27:01	and in the mean time
	I am jolly well violent.

27:05	A: Yes.

27:07	K: And it is
	an escape from the fact.

27:12	All abstractions
	are escape from the fact.

27:17	So the mind does it,

27:19	because it is incapable
	of dealing with the fact,

27:25	or it doesn't want
	to deal with the fact,

27:28	or it is lazy and says,

27:31	'Well, I will try and
	do it some other day'.

27:35	All those are involved,
	when it withdraws from the fact.

27:41	Now, in the same way,

27:44	the fact is:
	our relationship is non-existent.

27:51	I may say to my wife,
	I love you,

27:53	etc., etc.,
	but it's non-existent.

27:57	Because I have an image
	about her

27:59	and she has an image about me.

28:01	So,
	on abstractions we have lived.

28:06	A: It just occurred to me
	that the word 'fact' itself

28:11	- which there have been no
	end of disquisitions about...

28:15	K: Of course. The fact: 'what is'.
	Let's call it 'what is'.

28:18	A: But actually it means
	something done.

28:22	K: Done, yes.
	A: Not the record of something,

28:25	but actually something
	done, performed, act, act.

28:31	And it's that sense of 'fact'

28:33	that with our use
	of the word 'fact'.

28:37	'Give me facts and figures',
	we'd say in English,

28:39	give me facts, we don't
	mean that when we say it.

28:42	K: No.
	A: No. No.

28:45	One probably wouldn't need

28:47	facts and figures
	in that abstract sense.

28:52	K: You see, sir, this reveals
	a tremendous lot.

28:55	A: I follow.

28:57	K: When you feel responsible,

28:59	you feel responsible
	for education

29:02	of your children, not only
	your children - children.

29:09	Are you educating them

29:13	to conform to a society,

29:16	are you educating them
	to merely acquire a job?

29:21	Are you educating them
	to the continuity of what has been?

29:30	Are you educating them
	to live in abstractions

29:37	as we are doing now?

29:40	So what is your responsibility
	as a father, mother

29:46	- it doesn't matter who you are -
	responsible in education,

29:51	for the education
	of a human being.

29:59	That's one problem.
	What is your responsibility,

30:05	- if you feel responsible -
	for human growth,

30:13	human culture, human goodness?

30:18	What's your responsibility
	to the earth,

30:25	to nature, you follow?

30:26	It is a tremendous thing
	to feel responsible.

30:35	A: This just came to mind,
	which I must ask you about.

30:45	The word 'negation' in the book
	that we looked at earlier,

30:49	- which is continuous
	with what we are saying -

30:55	I think,
	is itself rather endangered

31:02	by the usual notion
	that we have of negation,

31:08	which is simply a prohibition,
	which is not meant.

31:11	Which is not meant.
	K: No, No. Of course not.

31:15	A: When we reviewed that
	incident in the Gita between

31:19	the general and his charioteer,
	the lord Krishna,

31:26	the lord's response
	was a negation

31:32	without it being a prohibition...

31:35	K: Quite, quite.
	A: ...wasn't it?

31:36	K: I don't know. I am...

31:38	A: No, No. I mean
	in terms of what we just

31:40	got through to saying.
	K: Yes, of course.

31:45	A: There is a difference then
	between

31:50	rearing a child in terms of

31:56	relating to the child
	radically in the present,

32:00	in which negation - as is
	mentioned in the book here

32:04	that we went through -

32:06	is continuously and immediately
	and actively present.

32:14	And simply walking around
	saying to oneself,

32:18	'Now I am rearing a child,

32:19	therefore
	I mustn't do these things,

32:20	and I mustn't do those things,
	I must do that'.

32:22	Exactly.
	An entirely different thing.

32:25	But one has to break the habit

32:29	of seeing negation as prohibition.
	K: Of course.

32:31	And also, you see,
	with responsibility

32:35	goes love, care, attention.

32:41	A: Yes. Earlier I was
	going to ask you about

32:43	care in relation to responsibility.

32:48	Something that would
	flow immediately,

32:51	naturally.
	K: Naturally, sir.

32:53	A: Not that I have to project

32:54	that I need to care for later
	and so I won't forget,

32:58	but I would be with it.

33:00	K: You see, that involves
	a great deal too, because

33:05	the mother
	depends on the child,

33:10	and the child
	depends on the mother,

33:12	- or the father,
	whatever it is.

33:14	So that dependence
	is cultivated:

33:19	not only between the
	father and the mother,

33:23	but depend on a teacher,

33:27	depend on somebody
	to tell you what to do,

33:33	depend on your guru.

33:38	You follow?
	A: Yes, yes, I follow.

33:40	K: Gradually the child, the man is
	incapable of standing alone,

33:50	and therefore he says,
	I must depend on my wife

33:53	for my comfort, for my sex,

33:55	for my this or that,
	and the other thing,

33:57	I am lost without her.

34:00	And I am lost
	without my guru,

34:03	without my teacher.
	It becomes so ridiculous!

34:10	So when the feeling
	of responsibility exists,

34:17	all this disappears.

34:22	You are responsible

34:26	for your behaviour,

34:27	for the way you bring up
	your children,

34:29	for the way you treat a dog,

34:32	a neighbour, nature,
	everything is in your hands.

34:38	Therefore you have to become

34:40	astonishingly careful
	what you do.

34:43	Careful, not, 'I must not do this,
	and I must do that'.

34:47	Care, that means affection,

34:49	that means
	consideration, diligence.

34:57	All that
	goes with responsibility,

35:02	which present society
	totally denies.

35:09	When we begin to discuss
	the various gurus

35:13	that are imported
	in this country,

35:16	that's what they are doing,

35:17	creating such mischief,

35:21	making those people,
	unfortunate, thoughtless people,

35:27	who want excitement,
	join them,

35:28	do all kinds of ridiculous
	nonsensical things.

35:35	So, we come back:

35:40	freedom implies responsibility.

35:45	And therefore freedom,
	responsibility,

35:48	means care, diligence,
	not negligence.

35:53	Not doing what you want to do,

35:57	which is what is happening
	in America.

35:59	Do what you want to do,

36:04	this permissiveness is just
	doing what you want to do,

36:07	which is not freedom,

36:11	which breeds irresponsibility.

36:20	I met the other day

36:22	in Delhi, New Delhi, a girl,

36:28	and she's become a Tibetan.
	You follow, sir?

36:35	Born in America, being a
	Christian, brought up in all that,

36:38	throws all that aside,
	goes, becomes a Tibetan,

36:41	which is the same thing
	in different words.

36:43	A: Yes. As a Tibetan coming
	over here and doing it.

36:47	K: It's all ridiculous!
	A: Yes.

36:49	K: And I've known her some years,

36:52	I said, 'Where is your child?'

36:54	who was six. "Oh,' she said,

36:56	'I've left him
	with other liberated Tibetans'.

37:02	I said, 'At six?
	You are the mother'.

37:05	She said, 'Yes,
	he is in very good hands'.

37:10	I come back next year
	and I ask, 'Where is your child?'

37:13	'Oh, he has become a
	Tibetan monk,' who is seven.

37:16	He is seven years old and
	has become a Tibetan monk!

37:21	You understand, sir?
	A: Oh yes, I do.

37:25	K: The irresponsibility of it,

37:29	because the mother feels,
	'They know better than I do,

37:35	I am Tibetan and the lamas
	will help me to become..'.

37:40	A: It puts a rather sinister cast

37:42	on that Biblical statement:

37:44	train up a child in
	the way he should go,

37:47	and when he is old
	he will not depart from it.

37:50	There is a sinister note in there,
	isn't there?

37:52	K: Absolutely.

37:53	So this is going on
	in the world all the time.

37:58	And a man who is really serious
	negates that,

38:06	because he understands
	the implications,

38:09	the inwardness of all that.

38:13	So he has to deny it.

38:16	It isn't a question
	of will or choice,

38:19	he says that's too silly,
	too absurd.

38:27	So freedom means responsibility
	and infinite care.

38:37	A: The phrase that you just
	spoke, 'infinite care...'

38:40	K: Yes, sir.

38:43	A: ...it would be totally impossible

38:45	to what we mean
	by a finite being

38:51	unless the finite being
	did not betray the present.

38:56	K: I know, sir.
	A: 'With not betraying the present'

38:58	is a negative again.
	It is a negation again.

39:01	With not betraying the present.

39:04	Which is not to say what
	will happen if it is not...

39:07	K: Sir, the word 'present',
	the now, is rather difficult.

39:12	A: Oh yes.

39:13	Philosophers love to call it
	the specious present.

39:16	K: I don't know
	what philosophers say.

39:18	I don't want to enter into
	all that speculative thinking.

39:21	But the fact, what is the 'now'?

39:26	What is the act of now,
	the present?

39:34	To understand the present
	I must understand the past,

39:38	not history, I don't mean that.
	A: Oh no, no, no.

39:40	K: Understand myself as the past.
	I am the past.

39:44	A: In terms of what we said
	earlier about knowledge.

39:46	K: Yes. I am that.
	A: Yes.

39:50	K: Therefore I must understand
	the past, which is me,

39:56	the 'me' is the known

40:00	- the 'me' is not the unknown,

40:02	I can imagine
	it is the unknown

40:04	but the fact is,
	the 'what is' is the known.

40:08	That's me.
	I must understand myself.

40:12	If I don't, the now is merely

40:14	a continuation,
	in modified form, of the past.

40:20	Therefore it is not the now,
	not the present.

40:27	Therefore the 'me' is the tradition,
	the knowledge,

40:33	in all the complicated
	manoeuvres,

40:38	cunning - you follow? -
	all that,

40:39	the despairs, the anxieties,
	the desire for success, fear,

40:45	pleasure, all that is me.

40:49	A: Since we are still
	involved in a discussion

40:52	about relationship here,

40:55	might we return a moment
	to where we were

40:58	with respect to education
	and relationship.

41:03	I want to be sure that
	I have understood you here.

41:09	Let us say that one were
	fortunate enough to have a school

41:14	where what you are
	pointing to was going on.

41:19	K: We are going to do,
	we are doing it.

41:20	We have got seven schools.
	A: Marvellous. Marvellous.

41:23	Well, we'll have a chance
	to talk about that, won't we?

41:26	K: Yes.
	A: Good, good.

41:32	If I'm current here,
	it would seem that

41:40	if the teacher is totally
	present to the child,

41:47	the child will feel this.

41:54	The child won't have
	to be instructed

41:57	in what this means then.

42:01	Is that right?
	K: Yes, but one has to find out

42:04	what is the relationship
	of the teacher

42:06	to the student.
	A: Yes, yes. I quite see that.

42:10	Of course.
	K: What is the relationship?

42:12	Is he merely an informer

42:17	giving information to the child?

42:21	Any machine can do that.

42:22	A: Oh yes, the library
	is filled with it.

42:23	K: Any machine can do that.
	Or what is his relationship?

42:27	Does he put himself
	on a pedestal up there

42:32	and his student down there?

42:35	Or is the relationship between
	the teacher and the student,

42:41	is it a relationship,
	in which there is learning

42:50	on the part of the teacher
	as well as the student.

42:53	Learning.
	A: Yes.

42:55	K: Not I have learnt
	and I am going to teach you.

43:01	Therefore in that
	there is a division

43:05	between the teacher
	and the student.

43:06	But when there is learning
	on the part of the teacher,

43:11	as well as on the part
	of the student,

43:13	there is no division.
	Both are learning.

43:17	A: Yes.

43:19	K: And therefore
	that relationship

43:23	brings about a companionship.

43:26	A: A sharing.
	K: A sharing.

43:27	A: A sharing. Yes.
	K: Taking a journey together.

43:33	And therefore an infinite
	care on both sides.

43:45	So it means,
	how is the teacher

43:49	to teach mathematics,
	or whatever it is, to the student,

43:54	and yet teach it in such a way

43:59	that you awaken the intelligence
	in the child,

44:02	not about mathematics.

44:04	A: No, no, of course
	not, no. Yes. Yes.

44:07	K: And how do you bring
	this act of teaching,

44:17	in which there is order,
	because mathematics means order,

44:23	the highest form of order
	is mathematics.

44:29	Now, how will you convey
	to the student,

44:33	in teaching mathematics,

44:35	that there should be
	order in his life?

44:42	Not order according to a blueprint.
	That's not order.

44:50	You follow?
	A: Yes, yes.

44:52	K: Therefore it brings...
	it's a creative teaching,

44:57	- not creative - it's an act
	of learning all the time.

45:05	So it's a living thing.

45:11	Not something I have learnt

45:12	and I am going
	to impart it to you.

45:16	A: This reminds me of a little essay
	I read many years ago

45:20	by Simone Weil which she called
	'On Academic Studies'

45:23	or some title like that,
	and she said

45:28	that every one who teaches
	a subject is responsible for

45:36	teaching the student

45:41	the relation between
	what they are studying

45:44	and the students making
	a pure act of attention.

45:47	K: I know, of course, of course.

45:49	A: And that,
	if this doesn't take place,

45:51	this whole thing
	doesn't mean a thing.

45:53	K: Sir, that's just it.

45:54	A: And when one stops to think
	what would a teacher say,

45:58	if a student walked up
	and looked at him and said,

46:00	'Fine, we're studying
	calculus right now.

46:04	Now you tell me how I am to
	see this that I am pursuing

46:10	in relation to my making
	a pure act of attention'.

46:15	It would be likely
	a little embarrassing

46:17	except
	for the most unusual person,

46:19	who had this grasp of the present.
	K: Quite.

46:24	So sir, that's just it.

46:26	What is the relationship
	of the teacher

46:29	to the student in education?

46:34	Is he training him
	merely to conform,

46:39	is he training him
	to cultivate mere memory,

46:44	like a machine?

46:46	Is he training, or is he helping him
	to learn about life,

46:54	not just about sex - the life,

46:58	the whole immensity of living,

47:01	the complexity of it?

47:05	Which we are not doing.
	A: No.

47:09	No, even in our language,

47:10	we refer students
	to subject matters.

47:16	They take this, they take that,
	they take the other,

47:18	and in fact,
	there are prerequisites

47:22	for taking these other things.

47:24	And this builds a notion
	of education, which

47:29	has absolutely no
	relationship to what...

47:31	K: None at all.

47:32	A: And yet, and yet amazingly,
	in the catalogues

47:37	of colleges and universities
	across the country

47:40	there is in the first page
	or so a rather pious remark

47:48	about the relation between
	their going to school

47:52	and the values of civilisation.

47:55	And that turns out to be
	learning a series of ideas.

48:00	Well, I don't know if
	they do it any more,

48:02	but they used to put the
	word 'character' in there.

48:04	They probably decided
	that's unpopular

48:06	and might very well have
	dropped that out by now,

48:08	I'm not sure. Yes, yes. Yes,

48:10	I'm following what you are saying.

48:12	K: So, sir,
	when you feel responsible,

48:20	there is a flowering
	of real affection,

48:24	you understand, sir?

48:27	A flowering of care
	for a child,

48:35	and you don't train him,
	or condition him

48:40	to go and kill another for
	the sake of your country.

48:45	You follow?
	All that is involved in it.

48:55	So, we come to a point,
	where a human being,

49:00	as he is now,

49:02	so conditioned
	to be irresponsible,

49:11	what are the serious people
	going to do

49:15	with the irresponsible people?

49:19	You understand?

49:23	Education, politics, religion,

49:26	everything is making
	human beings irresponsible.

49:32	I am not exaggerating.
	This is so.

49:36	A: Oh no, you are not
	exaggerating. Yes.

49:39	K: Now, I see this,
	as a human being,

49:42	I say, what am I to do?

49:45	You follow, sir?

49:47	What is my responsibility
	in face of the irresponsible?

49:54	A: Well, if it's to start
	anywhere, as we say in English,

49:56	it must start at home.

49:57	It would have to start with me.
	K: Yes, at home.

49:59	So I say, that's the whole point.

50:01	I have to start with me.
	A: Right.

50:04	K: Then from that
	the question arises:

50:07	then you can't do anything
	about the irresponsible.

50:12	A: No. Exactly.
	K: Ah, no, sir.

50:15	Something strange
	takes place.

50:18	A: Oh, I misunderstood you.
	I'm sorry.

50:20	What I meant by replying there

50:22	is that I don't attack
	the irresponsible.

50:25	K: No. No.
	A: No, no. Yes, go ahead, yes.

50:27	K: Something strange
	takes place, which is:

50:31	consciousness,

50:38	the irresponsible
	consciousness is one thing,

50:43	and the consciousness of
	responsibility is another.

50:47	Now, when the human being
	is totally responsible,

50:55	that responsibility,
	unconsciously,

50:58	enters
	into the irresponsible mind.

51:03	I don't know if I'm
	conveying anything.

51:05	A: Yes. No, no, go ahead.

51:09	K: Sir, look.
	I'm irresponsible.

51:11	Suppose I'm irresponsible,
	you are responsible.

51:16	You can't do anything
	consciously with me.

51:22	Because the more you actively

51:25	operate on me, I resist.

51:29	A: That's right, that's right.

51:31	That's what I meant
	by no attacking.

51:33	K: No attacking.
	I react violently to you.

51:36	I build a wall against you.

51:37	I hurt you.
	I do all kinds of things.

51:40	But you see that you cannot
	do anything consciously,

51:46	actively,
	let's put it that way.

51:48	A: Designedly.
	K: Designedly, planned,

51:52	which is what they are all
	trying to do.

51:56	But if you can talk to me,
	to my unconscious,

52:06	because the unconscious
	is much more active,

52:09	much more alert, much
	more... sees the danger

52:12	much quicker
	than the conscious.

52:15	So it is much more sensitive.

52:18	So if you can talk to me,
	to the unconscious,

52:22	that operates.

52:26	So you don't actively, designedly
	attack the irresponsible.

52:35	They have done it.

52:37	And they have made
	a mess of it.

52:39	A: Oh yes, it compounds,
	complicates the thing further.

52:41	K: Whereas if you talk to him,
	you talk to me,

52:46	but your whole
	inward intention is

52:50	to show
	how irresponsible I am,

52:52	what responsibility means

52:54	- you follow? -
	you care.

52:57	In other words, you care for me.
	A: Yes, yes.

53:00	I was chuckling because

53:02	the complete and total opposite
	crossed my mind,

53:04	and it just seemed
	so absolutely absurd.

53:08	Yes.

53:11	K: You care for me,
	because I am irresponsible.

53:15	You follow?
	A: Exactly.

53:17	K: Therefore you care for me.

53:18	And therefore you are watching

53:20	not to hurt me,
	not to... you follow?

53:24	In that way you

53:25	penetrate very, very
	deeply into my unconscious.

53:32	And that operates unknowingly,
	when suddenly I say,

53:37	'By Jove, how irresponsible
	I am' - you follow? -

53:38	that operates.

53:44	I have seen this, sir,

53:49	in operation, because
	I've talked for 50 years,

53:54	unfortunately or fortunately,
	to large audiences,

53:58	tremendous resistance
	to anything new.

54:04	Say, if I said, 'Don't
	read sacred books',

54:08	which I say all the time,

54:10	because you are just
	conforming, obeying.

54:14	You are not living. You are
	living according to some book

54:17	that you have read.

54:18	Immediately there is resistance:
	'Who are you to tell us?'

54:24	A: Not to do something.
	K: Not to do this or to do that.

54:27	So I say, all right.

54:28	I go on pointing out,
	pointing out.

54:32	I'm not trying to change them.

54:35	I'm not doing propaganda,

54:37	because I don't believe
	in propaganda. It's a lie.

54:41	So I say, look,

54:43	look what you do when
	you are irresponsible.

54:45	You are destroying
	your children.

54:49	You send them to war

54:52	to be killed and to be maimed,
	and to kill and to maim.

54:57	Is that an act of love,
	is that affection, is that care?

55:00	Why do you do it?
	And I go into it.

55:05	They get bewildered.

55:07	They don't know what to do!

55:08	You follow, sir?
	So it begins to slowly seep in.

55:15	A: Well, at first
	it's such a shock.

55:20	It sounds positively
	subversive to some.

55:23	K: Oh, absolutely,
	absolutely subversive.

55:25	A: Of, course, of course. Yes.

55:31	K: So we enter now
	into something, which is:

55:35	my relationship to another,

55:39	when there is
	total responsibility,

55:43	in which freedom
	and care go together,

55:51	the mind has no image
	in relationship at all.

56:00	Because the image
	is the division.

56:05	Where there is care,
	there is no image.

56:12	A: This would lead us into

56:15	what perhaps later
	we could pursue:

56:21	love.

56:22	K: Ah, that's a tremendous thing.
	A: Yes, yes.

56:26	K: We have to go into it.
	A: Could we

56:28	lay a few words before that,
	I don't know necessarily that

56:35	next time we would do that,

56:37	but it would come naturally.

56:40	I've been listening
	to what you have been saying,

56:42	and it's occurred to me
	that, if one is responsible

56:51	and care is continuous with that,
	one would not fear.

56:58	One could not fear.

57:01	Not would not, could not,
	K: Could not, you're not capable.

57:04	A: ...could not fear.

57:06	K: You see, that means really,
	one must understand fear.

57:13	A: One must understand fear.

57:15	K: And also
	the pursuit of pleasure.

57:19	Those two go together.
	They are not two separate things.

57:24	A: What I have learned here
	in our discussion is that

57:32	what it is, if I have
	followed you correctly,

57:35	that we should turn ourselves
	toward understanding,

57:39	is not what are called values.
	K: Oh no!

57:43	A: We don't understand love.

57:46	We understand
	all those things

57:48	which we catch ourselves into,

57:53	that militate against
	any possibility whatsoever.

57:58	This is what's so hard to hear,

58:00	to be told that
	there just is no possibility.

58:04	This produces immense terror.

58:09	Do you think next time
	when we converse together

58:14	we could begin at that point
	where we could discuss fear?

58:17	K: Oh yes.
	A: Good.

58:18	K: But, sir, before we enter
	fear, there is something

58:22	which we should
	discuss very carefully:

58:28	what is order in freedom?

58:36	A: Fine, fine, yes, yes.