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SY70DSG2 - Comparison and conformity
Sydney - 30 November 1970
Discussion with Small Group 2



0:01 This is the second small group discussion with J. Krishnamurti in Sydney, 1970.
0:07 Krishnamurti: What shall we talk about or talk over together?
0:15 Questioner: You said two talks ago about human innocence that cannot hurt or be hurt. I’d like to talk about that. And also the conditioning of young babies in their first year or so and the importance of them experiencing love before the assault of the society that deals negative things on them at this vulnerable time.
0:53 Q: Could we talk about emotion and intuition, reason and insight, and their relationship to self-centred activity and also to total living? (Laughter)
1:16 Q: Dependence on other people. How far should one be dependent on other people?
1:24 Q: Could we talk about the need to be completely responsible for ourselves?
1:33 Q: Aloneness seems to cover a lot of it. We could talk about aloneness.
1:43 Q: Could I ask how man, who has to earn his living in industry beset by all the complications of industry, the ambitions and so on, still wants to follow the ideas we have been discussing over the last two days and still wants to survive in industry?
2:13 K: How can we put all these questions together? Can we? What central question can we ask which will include all this, all the other questions?
2:23 Q: Could it be that we tend to have an intellectual understanding of the things that you’ve been talking about, but we need a very practical approach. This is self-awareness, self-knowledge.
2:30 Q: Even when we see what you say so clearly, what you mean is still so difficult to carry out. (Pause)
2:35 Q: Has man an image of himself that he always tries to approximate to? The image of the man in a business suit to live up to.
3:19 K: Could we put all these questions together? How am I – you’re asking – to live in this world and not be hurt, not to depend, and educate ourselves and our children so that they won’t be conditioned? And recognising what the world is, is it possible to stand alone and yet live in co-operation with others, and live a life which hasn’t all these ugly conflicts and so on? Is that what we are... can we include… would that include all this?
5:02 Q: Okay.
5:05 K: How am I to live in this world which is always overpowering me, drowning me almost, and yet without any form of resistance stand alone, and yet be involved in education, in action, in every form of human relationship and so on? Now, how am I to live in this world that way? I have children. I want to educate them properly. How am I to do this? Could you suggest a possible practical method – is that what you’re asking? – a practical way of doing this? What do we mean by practical? The thing that can be carried out – right? – the thing that can be done, and not left vaguely at the intellectual level. How would you proceed, sir? This is this a discussion; this is not a talk by me. How would you proceed? How would you proceed, knowing this is the way I want to live? Not as an end or anything, as a goal, as a principle, as an ideal, but this is the way I would like to live right now. How would you answer this question?
7:33 Q: Are you asking us?
7:36 K: Yes.
7:37 Q: You said that if you have a problem, you solve one problem, the central problem, you solve all your problems. So if we solve this particular problem we solve the whole thing.
7:48 K: Yes, sir, that’s what I’m asking. How will you do this in life? Here I am, living in Australia, married, children and all the rest of it. I work in a factory or in an office. I have to be a little aggressive otherwise I’m pushed out, and so on, so on. Now, what am I to do? Knowing I want to live without conflict in myself, I want to live really deeply without any attachment. Is that so? Do I want to live without conflict, without any attachment? Is that so? Or is that just an idea – follow this, sir – just an idea and therefore it becomes impractical and therefore I say, ‘Well, it’s impossible.’ Right? You follow what I mean? Now, how am I not to depend? We’ll begin with that. What does dependency involve?
9:00 Q: It’s a feeling that I feel weak in myself and I need something.
9:07 K: You need somebody’s support. You need somebody’s companionship. You need somebody who can encourage you, give you comfort, say, ‘It’s all right, old boy, carry on, you’re doing very well.’ You know, the father image and all the rest of it. Now why?
9:26 Q: And they may need me to depend on them.
9:29 K: Why do I need that kind of dependency?
9:32 Q: Is it because I don’t understand myself?
9:36 K: Partly, sir. Why do we... No, look, let’s examine it – you follow what I mean? Why do I depend on you? On my wife, you know what I mean – you. Why do I depend?
9:50 Q: Because we haven’t got clarity in action.
9:56 K: No, sir, it’s a little more complex than that, isn’t it? Let’s look at it. Why do I depend on somebody, intimate or outside? Why? What is behind that dependency?
10:11 Q: Well, because I have not sufficient confidence in myself.
10:15 K: Sufficient confidence in myself.
10:17 Q: That’s right.
10:18 K: Why? What do I mean? Go slow. What do I mean, confidence? Confidence in what?
10:26 Q: Seeing what’s right.
10:29 K: Go slowly, sir. Confidence. I say I have no confidence in myself. Right? Therefore I depend on you to encourage me, to say I’m doing all right, to give me comfort, you know, all the rest of it. Now, what do I mean I have no confidence in myself?
10:51 Q: Confidence in doing the right thing. Isn’t it that perhaps we remember past experiences and we can’t…
11:00 K: No, I’m asking what... Confidence in myself – just stick to that. No, no, don’t…
11:04 Q: I have not proved to myself.
11:07 K: No, no. Look, sir, you have used two words: confidence, myself. So what does that mean? Confidence in what? In my thoughts? In my feelings? In my outlook, opinion, judgement, evaluation, capacity to struggle? So when I say confidence in myself, what is that? What does that mean? You see, I’m questioning why should I have confidence at all? You follow, sir?
11:46 Q: Yes, I do. Yes, is it because…
11:49 K: Wait, wait, do question it, sir. Why should I have confidence in myself at all? If I have no confidence then I depend. Right? But I’m asking: why should I have confidence at all about anything, or in anything?
12:11 Q: Is it that one would like to be sure of achieving what one sets out to do before one actually starts?
12:20 K: No, look, sir. We asked a question, which is, practical, to be practical. How can I have confidence in myself and make it practical when I don’t know what ‘myself’ is? And why should I have confidence at all in what I think? I don’t know... Which is the most impractical thing. I don’t know if you follow. No? So I’m asking myself: why do I need confidence, in the pope – he is coming this afternoon – sorry! – or in myself, or in somebody else? Why should I have confidence in anybody? Which doesn’t mean I’m cynical or bitter. Now why?
13:22 Q: We’re divided up in ourselves.
13:26 K: No, no, no, don’t… You see, you’re not being… I’m asking: why should I have confidence in anything? Does a scientist have confidence in his experiment? He doesn’t know. He is experimenting. He doesn’t say, ‘I have confidence in myself and what I experiment with will succeed.’ That’s... Right?
13:58 Q: Are you saying that if you are aware of everything that has happened…
14:03 K: No, sir. No, wait a minute. Wait, I don’t want to come back to that.
14:06 Q: It’s about security isn’t it?
14:07 K: I want to look at it quite differently. I’ve forgotten what I said yesterday. Forget it completely, all of us, and see why I need confidence in myself about anything.
14:19 Q: We want to assure ourselves that we are permanent.
14:20 Q: Security. We don’t want things to go wrong.
14:23 Q: We have an ideal.
14:32 K: Sir, look, need I have confidence to learn about something?
14:41 Q: No.
14:44 Q: (Inaudible)
14:46 K: Must? I must have confidence to learn?
14:51 Q: (Various inaudible replies)
14:54 Q: We need other people to learn.
15:00 K: How do you know? To learn a language. You can apply yourself for three months or a year and you are bound to learn. There are forty million or fifty million Frenchmen who speak French. (Laughter)
15:17 Q: But if I have got a psychological problem…
15:20 K: Wait, wait, madame. No, you’re missing my point. Why should I have confidence at all? I am saying I am out to learn. Right?
15:38 Q: So we are saying… (inaudible)
15:39 K: No, learn. Wait, sir, we’ll include all this presently. I’m out to learn. Right? I want to be quite sure that I really want to learn, not assert that I must have confidence to learn. I don’t know Italian. I didn’t know, rather. I applied myself. I didn’t know whether I am capable or not capable or I have intelligence or confidence. I applied. I went at it. And I speak Italian, so-so – French and Spanish and so on. Where is the need for confidence? You see, sir, the whole thing, the whole issue is changed.
16:28 Q: Yes, I do see.
16:32 K: The one is impractical – say, ‘I have no confidence in myself therefore I depend, therefore I’m afraid, therefore I am jealous.’ That all becomes terribly impractical. I don’t know if you follow what I mean. Whereas I want to learn. I want to learn why I depend. You follow? I don’t know if you…
17:04 Q: I do.
17:05 K: The whole thing is changed. I don’t know if you... I want to learn. Why do I depend?
17:14 Q: Do I really want to learn or do I want something else?
17:23 K: I’m saying I want to learn, otherwise the whole thing becomes so stupid, so impractical. You follow what I mean? Now I want to learn why I am dependent. Go on, sir. We are learning. Why am I dependent? Not that I have not confidence. I’ve blocked that – I don’t know if you follow. Why am I dependent? Because I don’t know. Right? So I depend on the Linguaphone or on some teacher to teach me Italian, French or whatever it is. Is that dependency?
18:23 Q: No, it’s using a tool.
18:28 K: That’s not dependency, is it?
18:33 Q: No.
18:35 K: I depend on the Linguaphone to teach me or a Frenchman to teach me French. Now where else does dependency come in then? I depend on my wife. Right? I’m going to learn why I depend. I don’t start by saying to myself, ‘I have no confidence.’ I’m going to learn. I don’t know… Right? Now, what do I find? What do I find in myself that makes me dependent?
19:22 Q: Confusion. A mind full of images.
19:29 K: Is that so?
19:32 Q: Yes.
19:33 K: Is that so with you, sir?
19:34 Q: Yes, that is so.
19:35 K: Be very accurate. Be very accurate, otherwise it becomes impractical. Why do I depend on my wife or on my children? I understand depending on a job – I need that, money and so on. Psychologically, inwardly, why do I depend on anybody?
20:05 Q: Because I get some satisfaction out of it?
20:10 K: I don’t know.
20:12 Q: We want to fulfil ourselves.
20:14 K: I don’t know. Do you know?
20:19 Q: It’s not clear.
20:23 K: Please, sir, do go slowly.
20:26 Q: Is it to give purpose to life?
20:29 K: No, I… Do you know why you depend?
20:31 Q: Because we’re...
20:32 K: No, do listen, madame, take two seconds. Do you know why you depend? Sir, see the beauty of what we’re going to discover a minute. Do you know why you depend?
20:42 Q: Yes.
20:43 K: You do, don’t you?
20:45 Q: Of course I do.
20:46 K: So that means what? You have stopped learning. If you say, ‘I know why I depend,’ you have stopped learning, haven’t you? Right? I don’t know if you see this.
21:04 Q: There must be some insight.
21:06 K: No, wait, sir. This is tremendous insight – you won’t take it. You will see it in a minute. The moment I say to myself, ‘I depend on my wife because I need encouragement’ – I’m taking that – I have stopped learning, haven’t I? I’ve already come to a conclusion why I depend.
21:34 Q: But can’t you then take that on and say, ‘Okay, I...’ – what was the reason you gave for dependence? What was the reason you gave? All right, you say, ‘I depend on my wife because I need her encouragement.’
21:48 K: I need comfort – let’s take that.
21:50 Q: All right. Well, can’t you then say, ‘I’ve stopped that, now why do I need comfort?’ and get on from there?
21:57 K: No, no. No, you’re missing… If you say, ‘I know,’ or come to a conclusion, you’ve already stopped learning. Right? No?
22:11 Q: Yes.
22:14 K: And I want to learn. Therefore I must not come to a conclusion. That I depend on my wife because I want comfort. It’s a foregone conclusion. It’s already finished. I don’t know... Therefore I’m not learning. Right? So now I want to learn why I depend on my wife. So I come to it not knowing. Right? Do you? Do you come to this question not knowing the answer?
22:59 Q: Yes.
23:00 Q: Yes.
23:01 K: No, no, this is not a trick question. Do I come to this, when I say to myself, ‘I want to learn why I depend on my wife’ – I’ve put the question – now am I answering it with a conclusion?
23:20 Q: Don’t we tend to always come to a conclusion?
23:26 K: Therefore I’m preventing it. I depend on my wife because she gives me comfort, sex, cooks my meals, etc. Which means I’ve already blocked myself from looking more, inquiring further. Right? Which means I’ve stopped learning. Now, have I stopped formulating at all? Therefore I come to this question totally with a fresh mind, not knowing. I don’t know if you… Do you? Not knowing what the answer is. Right, sir? Are you doing that? Not knowing what the answer is. Right? Then what takes place? In my mind, what takes place? It is really quite interesting this; I never thought about it this way; it’s fun. Go on, sir. What takes place when I say, ‘I really don’t know why I depend’?
24:58 Q: A kind of searching.
25:01 K: No.
25:02 Q: The searching stops.
25:04 K: No, no, please watch it. Watch it in yourself. I say to myself, ‘I depend on my wife.’ And I depend on my wife because she gives me all kinds of things and therefore I depend. The moment I come to a conclusion I have stopped learning. Therefore I won’t come to a conclusion because I really deeply want to find out why I depend. I want to learn. Therefore what has happened when I put that question: why do I depend on my wife? What is the state of my mind that is looking at that question? You follow, sir?
25:51 Q: It’s kind of listening.
25:55 Q: Not known. A state of not knowing.
26:09 Q: (Inaudible)
26:10 K: What is the state of my mind when I say I really don’t know, and yet I seem to depend on my wife? Why? And I have no conclusion. Right? What has taken place?
26:30 Q: A door is opened.
26:35 K: I don’t depend any more.
26:39 Q: (Various inaudible replies)
26:44 K: I’ve finished. You’re missing… Therefore I have learned something. Which is, these conclusions are making me so-called dependent. Right? Right, sir? You look puzzled, madame. Shall we go over that a little bit again?
27:22 Q: Yes.
27:24 K: I want to learn, learn why I depend on my wife. If I come to that question… if I answer that question knowing already the answer – that is, I depend on her because of this, this, this – there’s nothing more. Right? I haven’t answered the question at all. I have given a verbal answer. Right? And I want to learn. Therefore I see I mustn’t answer from a conclusion which is the past. Right? If I have to learn I must come to anything… to learn with a mind that doesn’t know. Right? I don’t know – what? – Greek. I can’t say, ‘Well, Greek is...’ You know? I can’t come to it with any conclusion. I have to learn. I begin not knowing. Now, so what has happened to my mind when it has said, ‘I must learn about dependency’? Right? Now what has happened to my mind when it has no conclusion? Go on, sirs, it’s your job.
29:13 Q: It’s free.
29:15 Q: No concern.
29:18 K: It is free, isn’t it?
29:20 Q: It’s still.
29:21 K: Therefore I don’t… Come on, sir.
29:25 Q: I can look at my wife with fresh eyes.
29:35 K: Do it, will you? (Laughter) It gives freedom to the mind to look. And it has no freedom when there is a conclusion through which it looks. So freedom from conclusion is freedom from dependency. I don’t know if you follow all this.
30:03 Many: Yes.
30:05 K: Rather fun, sir. (Laughter)
30:09 Q: Yes.
30:11 Q: Some conclusions are…
30:14 K: Wait. Wait, wait, wait. I’ve a conclusion: I am going the day after tomorrow. That’s a conclusion. I’ve got the ticket, etc. (Laughs) That’s a conclusion. They are expecting me in India, in Delhi tomorrow… Wednesday evening. Finished. It’s a conclusion that you can go to the moon, conclusion that you can live under the sea for a month, conclusion you can build bridges and, you know – naturally. But I am asking why I depend on my wife. And then can I live in this world, with things as they are and myself as I am, can I live in this world differently? Differently in the sense, can I be without conflict in myself? I have disposed of my dependency. Sir, that’s a tremendous thing – do you know what it means? I don’t know if you have gone into this. Which means dependency comes also through comparison. I don’t know if you follow. I depend on the image I have about what I should be – the hero. And the ideal of the hero is my dependency. I believe in God, which becomes: I depend on that belief. Like all the Catholics. I don’t know if you follow all this. I depend on my memories, remembrances of things past, of the happy... etc. You follow? So, dependency is not only on a person, but on an idea, on a conclusion, on a remembrance, on a capacity. I know several quite well known, first class violinists. They are scared stiff. Because to them if they can’t play they’re finished, their life is over. So they depend on the fiddle and they practise, do all kinds of yogic exercise. (Laughs)
33:16 Q: Is dependence on drugs anything like this?
33:21 K: Absolutely. Smoking, drugs, drink, sex. You see, it isn’t quite so simple – you follow? Dependency implies all this. Can the mind learn about all this? And it can only learn if it is free. And if it is free these things don’t exist. I don’t know… (Laughs) And you want the most practical way. There it is. I mean, it’s like the Catholic depending on the mass, going… you know? To him, without that he is deprived, he feels unhappy. The rituals, the sensation, the stimuli, the people, the beauty of the candlelight, the church, the robes – you know, all the…
34:28 Q: This is all… (inaudible) Of all these dependencies, it’s the one thing. It’s the memory, isn’t it?
34:36 K: No, no. No, don’t reduce it to one thing. You see, you have stopped learning! If you reduce the whole thing to one thing you have... Therefore you look. Do I depend on rituals? Do I depend on drugs? Do I depend on my wife? Do I depend on going to the church? Do I depend on books? You understand? The bible – whatever book. Do I depend on drugs, smoke, drink? Go into it, sir.
35:26 Q: Aren’t you faced with the practical conclusion – dare I use the word? – if you want to build this building you do depend on people, machines.
35:41 K: Absolutely. On blueprints and engineering and architecture, the architect, of course.
35:48 Q: Machines and blueprints and so on, they are fairly straightforward. People, they are different. We inevitably depend on them and how they react to you and so on.
36:01 K: Yes, but can I not talk to the architect freely?
36:06 Q: Yes.
36:08 K: And not depend on… I see he knows much more than I do, obviously, but can’t I talk to him, show him what I would like? Sir, this is... If I have the money and all the rest of it. So now the next question is: can I live in this world without effort in myself, without conflict? Conflict means, you know, I want this and I don’t want that – this contradiction. Can I live in this world without contradiction in myself? Go on, sirs, I don’t know.
37:01 Q: I feel I’d be lost without that conflict that savours my life, puts some salt into it.
37:15 K: It puts salt into your life. So we depend on that salt which we call conflict. So you like conflict. What’s wrong with it? If you like conflict, go on – why?
37:34 Q: It just gets out of hand sometimes, the little bit that you need to savour it spoils the meal.
37:42 K: No, sir, look, look – you like conflict and I like conflict. We all like conflict. Then what happens?
37:47 Q: (Inaudible)
37:48 K: We are at each other’s throat – right? – and you like to be at each other’s throat. No?
37:58 Q: No.
37:59 K: No, if you admit one thing you must admit also the other. You can’t just say, ‘Well, I like...’ (laughs)
38:04 Q: We are not physically at each other’s throat.
38:06 K: No, no, no, we are psychologically at each other’s throat.
38:15 Q: Does the problem not arise though that everybody you are working with knows only the language of conflict and resisting conflict? And you, I think one can ask: what can one man do? If in fact you want to build this building and you are the man who are telling the labourers what to do, and they only understand conflict, and it’s only when you in fact order them and whip them and so that they in fact do work.
38:55 K: I’m not at all sure, sir. Look, before you apply a non-conflict mind with the labourer, let’s find out if it is possible to live without conflict. Not what you will do if you have no conflict or you must be in conflict to do anything. That’s what you’re saying – you must push, drive. Now is it... First before we come to action, let’s find out if it is possible to live without conflict in oneself. Do you know what that means? Conflict that exists between ‘what is’ and ‘what should be’ – right? – conflict with the present, the present with the past – the past tradition, the past experience, the past memories, past sensations. Conflict exists when there are ideals. Right? Conflict exists when I am conforming. You follow? Not just conflict with the labourer. All these are contributory factors to conflict. Now can I, can my mind, this mind, be free of all this conflict? Which means, can I learn about it? Therefore I’m going to look. I’m going to look at conformity because that’s one of the factors, one of the major factors of conflict. I don’t know if you see whether it is so or not. Conforming to a pattern, whether it is social pattern or the pattern which I made for myself or the pattern of the culture which is around me. I conform. Now why do I conform? Not in outward things, sir, please, let’s make that clear. I conform putting on trousers in this country because otherwise if we went about in Indian clothes I’d look silly. I’ll attract too much attention and I don’t… – you know, all the rest of it. So we can brush aside superficial adjustment rather than conformity. Now why do I conform inwardly? (Pause) Why do millions of Catholics conform?
41:58 Q: Is it fear of the unknown?
42:07 K: No, no, no, do look at it, sir. Why do all those Catholics conform?
42:24 Q: Then you can be sure of something.
42:39 Q: They are sure.
42:41 Q: Habit.
42:42 Q: Dependence.
42:43 Q: For economic advancement.
42:45 K: Yes. Go on, sir. Why?
42:49 Q: It gives them a sense of belonging.
42:52 K: Is that it? Does the average Catholic know why he is depending?
42:56 Q: It depends upon the particular Catholic why.
42:57 K: I mean, take the average – I said that. The average person, does he know why he is a Catholic?
43:00 Q: Yes.
43:01 Q: No.
43:02 K: Like the communists know. You know, if you go into Russia and talk to them they say, ‘What are you talking about? I’m a communist.’
43:10 Q: It’s habit. He just accepts what he’s been told.
43:16 Q: Conditioned by the environment where he lives.
43:19 Q: He’s been told that if he questions it, it’s introspection and that’s unhealthy.
43:23 Q: Don’t we just naturally assume authority, acknowledge authority?
43:25 Q: Does it depend on the group?
43:26 K: Go on, sir, go on, sir, put out all kinds of ideas, let’s put it out.
43:35 Q: A feeling of security?
43:41 K: Security, adjustment, fear.
43:46 Q: It’s also conditioning from childhood.
43:53 K: He’s been told from childhood, you’re a Catholic, believe in this and that, don’t mix with the Protestant. Is that it? What does all that involve?
44:10 Q: It means that we’re falling into the trap of conclusions again.
44:14 K: No, no, what does this... being told from childhood – this happens in India too, sir, that’s why… this is a common phenomenon – you are told from childhood in India not to kill. Don’t kill that fly because if you kill, next life you will pay for it. Be kind. Don’t touch that person because he isn’t a Brahmin. You can only eat with Brahmins, not with anybody else. As a Brahmin you must sit this way, you must – you follow? From childhood I’m told I’m a Catholic, a Protestant, I’m taken to the church.
45:01 Q: We are speaking about conformity so perhaps that is the root.
45:06 K: Conformity – I’m saying: why are we conforming? Do we know we are conforming?
45:17 Q: No.
45:18 Q: We haven’t got the intelligence.
45:22 K: No, sir, ask yourself: do you know you are conforming?
45:31 Q: Sometimes.
45:33 Q: How can we know?
45:38 K: Does the average Hindu, a Brahmin, know that he is following, obeying, conforming? Or he just blindly follows, doesn’t know. Which means what?
45:57 Q: He doesn’t question.
46:01 K: You’re told from childhood, sir, that you’re an Australian, and you’re an Australian. You don’t say, ‘Why am I? Why do they call me an Australian?’ Because they live in this part of the world which is called Australia? You follow? We become slaves to propaganda. No, no…
46:26 Q: We believe that we are.
46:31 K: We believe. That means what?
46:34 Q: We accept without questioning.
46:39 K: Accept what?
46:42 Q: That we are an Australian.
46:44 Q: (Many inaudible comments)
46:45 Q: We accept the thought.
46:46 K: No, I’m not at all sure that we accept at all.
46:48 Q: There’s conflict in that acceptance.
46:51 K: No, sir, we don’t. The conflict arises only when you wake up. Then you say, ‘By Jove, why am I a Hindu? What the dickens does it mean? Why am I a Brahmin? What does it mean?’ Then the conflict begins. But we are so conditioned by propaganda – Catholic, you’re Hindu, Hindu. Sir, I was in Rome a month ago and I turned on the television and there is a priest there. They have three times… twice a week – which never happens anywhere else, perhaps in Spain – this priest, Benedictine priest, was telling the beauty of the life of Jesus. And the repetition of that, you know, week after week, and in that church. Do you know what happens to the mind?
48:06 Q: We’re hypnotised.
48:09 K: And the communists do the same. I believe there was a committee formed in America to investigate the question of propaganda, go into it and see. Do you know who were the first people to stop it? The religious people. (Laughter) Then the army. Then the business people. (Laughs) So why do I conform? Now I’m awake I’m not going to have conflict about it. I want to find out why I conform. I want to learn, not come to any conclusion. I want to learn why I conform, in what way I’m conforming. Am I conforming when I put on trousers in Australia or Europe and I put on different clothes in India? Am I conforming?
49:23 Q: No, you’re just adjusting.
49:28 K: Then what does conformity mean?
49:31 Q: (Inaudible)
49:32 K: Please, go into… You see, you don’t… What does conformity mean then? I don’t adjust myself to… I adjust myself to outward things – simple – but where does conformity begin?
49:50 Q: Psychological dependency.
49:54 K: Is that conformity? Conforming.
49:57 Q: Accepting without question.
49:58 K: No, sir. Conform – what does that word mean?
50:00 Q: I must believe in something to conform with it.
50:03 K: No, sir.
50:06 Q: Living to a mental pattern, fixed.
50:13 Q: Surely the fear of non-conformity.
50:19 K: Of course – fear of non-conformity. Because if I lived in a Catholic country and I was a Protestant I would have a pretty thin time. You ought to see the Protestant church in Rome, then you will see it. (Laughter) Now, why do I conform? What does that mean? To form... conform.
50:51 Q: Form with.
50:54 K: Form with, isn’t it? Now, in what way am I conforming? That is, forming myself in the pattern of something. In the pattern of what another has said. In the pattern of Jesus or Buddha and so on. Why? Why is there this thing urged on people?
51:35 Q: It’s a fear of being what one is.
51:40 K: No, sir, do go slowly, sir, inquire. Why is this urged on me by society that I must form, co-operate with, accept – why? Everybody says to me, ‘Conform, old boy.’ Why?
52:02 Q: Because you’re a danger in society when you’re not, you’re a threat.
52:09 K: So is that it? They are afraid, society is afraid if I don’t conform I’ll upset it, I’ll be an outsider.
52:18 Q: You’ll be a seed of change.
52:22 K: Therefore I have learnt something. You follow? I’m learning. I’m not coming to any conclusion, I’m learning. So, conform. Now do I conform with what society wants me to do? Society says to me, join the army. What shall I do? Go on, sir.
52:52 Q: Doesn’t society protect itself against the very conflict which…
53:05 K: Society says you must belong to some church – Protestant, doesn’t matter what. Right? And if I act on my own, independent of the church, I have very little chance. I don’t know if you know something about this. That is, when you are conscripted or drafted or whatever the word here is used, if you have an organisation behind you they are not so brutal. If you have no organisation, if you are without an organisation, they take it out of you, because of votes. (Laughs) Right, sir? So what does it mean to conform? Go on, sirs, I am doing… Find out, sir. Where do I conform? What is this insistent demand on the part of the parents, education, which is conditioning the mind to conform – why is there this constant pressure of conformity? Not only outwardly – you understand? – parents, teachers, society, culture, but also inwardly I’m conforming to a memory which I have. I have done something yesterday and I’m going to do it today, tomorrow. A habit. Habit is a conformity. I don’t know if you go in…
54:48 Q: Yes.
54:49 K: Now why is there this urge to conform? Not only on my own part but also on the part of the culture around me.
54:58 Q: It’s easier. It’s a kind of laziness.
55:12 Q: That’s right.
55:14 Q: But we’re unhappy when we don’t.
55:18 Q: It’s easier.
55:19 Q: You don’t have to learn.
55:22 K: No, sirs. Go on, sir, look at it.
55:24 Q: We are afraid.
55:25 Q: We don’t know any other way.
55:26 Q: Desire to be secure.
55:27 Q: We are afraid.
55:28 K: Afraid. No, no, I’m asking some other question. Why are you insisting that I conform? You the society, you the priest, you the businessman, you the educator – you follow? – everybody pushing this on to me – conform. Why?
55:38 Q: They don’t want us to think for ourselves.
55:41 Q: They don’t want change.
55:44 Q: They are afraid of freedom.
55:46 Q: It would be dangerous if you don’t conform.
55:48 Q: You’ll upset my idea of how things should be.
55:52 K: You’re all answering me with a formula. Right? I have no formula. I am just looking. Why do I conform? I may reject the outward conformity. I’m not a Hindu. I have a horror to call myself a Hindu. I have a passport, Indian passport, but that’s just a means of travel, like a ticket. And I can reject being a Hindu or an Englishman or a German or whatever it is. Now, am I conforming because I reject the outward forms? Now why do I conform? Why is there this peculiar urge in me, apart from the culture in which I live, this desire to conform? I know fear – you have told me all this. I don’t think that’s quite the deep answer.
57:06 Q: Isn’t it to do with that I myself am a form, a memory?
57:12 K: No, you have stated that in different words.
57:15 Q: I don’t know, I just do it. I don’t know.
57:20 Q: Is it because society may be right, but we don’t know?
57:24 K: Society, as I said just now, I won’t accept my… I won’t call myself a Hindu. I’ve finished with that stupidity. It is a tribal mark. You follow? I’m not a tribal mark. But I am asking: why is there in every human being this urge to conform? You follow, sir? Why? What does it mean?
57:53 Q: Are we afraid of being separate then? Do we not want to be separate from the rest?
58:00 K: You look at it. All right, afraid of being separate.
58:03 Q: Isolation.
58:05 K: Is that the answer?
58:06 Q: It’s not the answer.
58:08 Q: Is it a cover for my own emptiness?
58:11 K: No, that’s just a conclusion. I want to find out the root of it – you understand, sir? – not just the trimmings of it, the peripheral promptings, peripheral answers. I want to see why in me there is this deep-rooted urge to conform.
58:29 Q: But is there not a deep-rooted urge not to conform?
58:38 K: You have? No, wait a minute. Then that becomes also a conformity. Not to conform – opposite – is a conformity. Taking all that you have said to me – fear, isolation, the sense of not being able to be part of the herd, not to be able to walk freely with others – all that I understand, but I say there is a much deeper issue involved in this.
59:13 Q: An escape?
59:14 K: I accept that too but there is still a deeper thing.
59:15 Q: You mean this includes a habit, smoking all that? No, I conform to many things like that. But you say: why?
59:27 Q: Is it to do with the nature of thought? Thought always wants to have things nicely tied up.
59:43 K: I’ve got it. Have you got it?
59:46 Q: Yes.
59:48 K: (Laughs) Go into it, sir. You have given me various reasons why I conform: fear, losing a job, I can’t get my daughter married. That’s a part of the conformity in India. You follow? Don’t fool… Right? If I’m a Brahmin I must marry my daughter to a Brahmin otherwise there’s going to be trouble in the family. You follow? So I conform through fear, which is obvious, I conform through pressure, which is obvious, I conform through propaganda, which is also obvious. I conform because I’m afraid, I’m lost. Right? I say these are all peripheral answers for me, you see? And I say I must find out the root of the matter. You understand, sir?
1:00:51 Q: Is it that I don’t trust myself to be…
1:00:56 K: We’ve been through that – confidence. (Laughs)
1:00:59 Q: By conforming it gives me an attachment to something bigger.
1:01:03 K: Bigger – that’s part of it. But still that doesn’t answer my question. I want to go the root of it and see if that root can be cut. And then finished – I won’t even think about conforming – you follow? – or not conforming. It’s over. You see, your saying that I conform because I want to identify myself with something larger, is the most impractical action. I identify myself with the larger, which is India, the nation. Therefore the nation with its government, with its army, separate, is ready to kill somebody else, and my identification in order to… my identification with the larger, which gives me security, my security is destroyed. I don’t know if you’re following this.
1:02:02 Many: Yes.
1:02:03 K: So I say none of this is the… (laughs) because all this implies conflict. How to get rid of fear, how to get rid of not to identify, how can I stand alone – you follow? – all the rest of it. Now I want to find out what is the root of all this. Go on, madame.
1:02:27 Q: It’s the ‘I’ that is saying all this.
1:02:30 Q: I conform because I want to be somebody.
1:02:40 Q: Isn’t it because my thinking is not mine; it’s always part of society.
1:02:46 K: Yes, yes, yes, you have said all that. What do you think is the root of it, sir? Now wait a minute, how are you going to find out? How am I going to find the root of this matter? You follow, sir? How?
1:03:05 Q: By learning.
1:03:08 K: No. I haven’t time. I want to find it out now while I am sitting here. I want to find out the root of this tree which branches out – fear – you follow?
1:03:27 Q: Yes.
1:03:28 Q: Could it be that it’s because we are self-centred, this conforming, that we are looking at it from our mind and not…
1:03:43 K: I’m going to show… Madame, will you see? How do you find out the root of a problem, the root of an issue? Here is a problem and I see the problem has many, many branches. And trimming the branches isn’t going to solve the problem. And that’s what we have all been doing now, saying let’s cut this branch, this is that, this is this, this is that. And I say that is not the answer, somehow, you haven’t touched the root of it. Now how do you find out?
1:04:17 Q: Perhaps thinking about it the wrong way.
1:04:22 K: You are too… I’m asking you the question, you are not even listening. You are really already answering. I want to find out the root of this whole business of conformity. Now how do I find out?
1:04:46 Q: We don’t know.
1:04:50 K: When you say you don’t know, what do you mean? No, sir, no, sir, go into it slowly. What do you mean, ‘I don’t know’? You mean, when you say, ‘I don’t know,’ I can’t come to any conclusion you mean. And what is the state of the mind – listen to it, sir – the state of the mind that says, ‘I really don’t know’?
1:05:18 Q: It’s very quiet.
1:05:19 K: Are you?
1:05:21 Q: No, not personally.
1:05:22 K: No, no, no – are you? Are you very quiet when you really say, ‘I really don’t know what the root of this affair is’? I want to see that boat that’s going by, that ferry. I watch it very carefully, don’t I? The lines of it, if I am near enough to see the passengers and so on. I watch. I don’t chatter. My whole mind… I am observing. Similarly, I am observing completely quietly why this… what is the root of this matter. Can you do it? Observe – observe, not shut your eyes and be quiet – observe quietly, completely quietly to find out what the root of it is. Which means I really don’t know. I don’t expect somebody to tell me, no book has been written about it, Jesus hasn’t told me. I really don’t know, therefore I’m not expecting. Not expecting an answer from you, from somebody else. So I really don’t know. And a mind that doesn’t know is obviously a very quiet mind. Right? Right? When I say, ‘I really don’t know,’ I’m just watching. Are you doing the same?
1:07:13 Q: Surely it’s because I am wanting.
1:07:22 K: No. Madame, am I watching? That’s all. Am I watching? Is the mind watching quietly?
1:07:29 Q: Watching itself, or what?
1:07:33 K: Watching. Now. You see, you see, you see? Watching. I’m just watching – the sea and the harbour, the trees, the sailors. My mind watching that hydrofoil coming in is very quiet, just watching. The mind is not recognising. You follow?
1:07:59 Q: It’s not labelling.
1:08:01 K: The moment it recognises, it’s already in movement. This is all – please, I don’t know if you have ever done it. I mean, this is… it’s real meditation. You don’t know. But it doesn’t matter. Just watching. Now I’m watching why there is this tremendous root with all its branches, the tree with all its branches that is constantly conforming. I have found the answer for myself. I’ll tell you. You may disagree with it. You follow, sir? You may say that’s not the answer. Don’t accept it, because then you’re back again, conform to what I say. Then that’s too idiotic. There is conformity because there is becoming. No? (Pause)
1:09:13 Q: Instead of being.
1:09:24 K: Ah! You see? I said there is conformity. I find the root of it is this urge to become, this movement to become. What happens if I don’t become is another matter. We are not discussing that. We are seeing why there is this conformity. I am dull. I see you who are clever, bright, intelligent, sharp, and I want to become like you. In becoming there is measurement. Right? Follow this, sir, see the implications of it. Please don’t accept it, just… I’m pointing out that a mind that really does not know – and does not know, not just waiting for an answer, hoping somebody will tell me, some intuition will come into mind. You follow? Intuition is one of the most deadly things because it might be my wish, my background prompting me. And therefore I brush all that aside and say, ‘Now, I really don’t know.’ And I’m watching. Watching in the sense, my mind is very quiet and listening, watching, looking. You follow? Because I have no other way to find out. Because you haven’t written a book about it. The church doesn’t tell me anything about it. The philosophers, the psychologists, they can spin their own theories.
1:11:42 Q: But there’s still a wanting to find out in this.
1:11:45 K: Wait. I have found out for myself. I’ll show it to you. I’ve said to myself, ‘By Jove, I see the real root of this is: to become, to be.’ And I want a reason behind it afterwards. I’ve found it, but I want reason, logic, sanity, not just say, ‘Well…’ You follow? And I see to become means to have a measure. I must have a measurement, otherwise I can’t become. I don’t know if you follow all this.
1:12:34 Many: Yes.
1:12:35 Q: Sir, I find myself during the day just walking around and doing whatever I’m doing and repeating in my mind your words.
1:12:46 K: Yes.
1:12:47 Q: Trying to…
1:12:48 K: Yes, of course, of course. So the root may be – I’m saying maybe; I’m not quite sure yet. I’m going to examine it logically – you follow, sir? – cover the whole ground. Then I say, ‘Right!’ You follow? To become implies an ideal. There must be a measurement between myself and that which I want to be. Comparison. Can I live without comparison? I don’t say I can or cannot. Can I find out? Comparing with what I was yesterday, wanting to become something. Which is to become, which is to compare. The school boy is compared with the bright boy. Right? So B who is not so clever as A, when the teacher compares B with A, he destroys B. Right? So I’m doing the same. I don’t know if you follow.
1:14:16 Q: Yes, I do.
1:14:17 K: So I say as long as I have a measurement there must be conformity. As long as I have an ideal, as long as I say, ‘I must be better, I must change’ – and change is a modification of what I am to what I should be. I don’t know... Then I have seen the reason behind it, say, ‘Right, I’ve got the root of it.’ I don’t know if you follow.
1:14:58 Q: How does not knowing...
1:14:59 K: Look, I have done it.
1:15:00 Q: But I haven’t done it.
1:15:01 K: No – why? Because you really in your heart and your mind don’t say, ‘I really don’t know.’ Which means you’re never quiet to observe because you are always – you follow?
1:15:18 Q: (Inaudible)
1:15:22 K: Therefore I say... Look, sir, I’ve found something. I have found it. I have learnt. You follow? I say as long as there is a movement of becoming, in which also there is a movement of not becoming – I will not be but I will be – are both the same. Right? As long as there is a movement of becoming there must be conformity. Then there must be fear, because I may not become.
1:16:05 Q: Can you change now though?
1:16:11 K: I am doing it, sir. I see very clearly if I want to live in this world without conflict there must be no becoming. Finished. I go to the office. There I am promoted. I don’t care two pins – or not. You see, the more I am non-conforming the more efficient I am. You don’t know; haven’t you… The more practical I am.
1:16:47 Q: Less conflict.
1:16:48 K: Less – there is no conflict. Therefore I have energy to be practical. So am I… is there any hints, promptings in me to become more beautiful, more this? You follow? And I see in comparing myself with you I am dull. You are bright, I am not. I compare myself. Right? Through comparison I have found I am dull. And through comparison when I find myself I am dull I battle with myself to be clever, to be bright, to be intelligent. Right? Now how do I know that I am dull if I have no comparison? Go on, sir. You follow? How do I know? Please, come on, sir.
1:18:13 Q: I don’t know.
1:18:18 K: Then what does it mean?
1:18:20 Q: That you’re not dull.
1:18:22 K: I’m not dull. What the heck are you talking about? It is only through comparison I become dull. But if there is no comparison, what happens?
1:18:34 Q: You’re living with the ‘what is’.
1:18:37 K: Ah! No. I’ve gone… one has gone beyond that, hasn’t one? Comparison implies, as we said, conformity, measurement. I have no measurement. It doesn’t mean I am what I am. I have no measurement even to measure what I am. So measurement is illusion. When I compare myself with you who are bright, I am dull. If I don’t compare… The becoming like you is an illusion. I don’t know… Right? So I have no measurement. Then what happens?
1:19:40 Q: Just accept yourself for what you are.
1:19:52 K: Wait, wait, wait. If you say you accept what you are, what are you? You are measurement. You are the measurement. No? You are the censor, you are the judge, you condemn, you justify. Right? So you are the ruler, the tape measure. And when you say, ‘I don’t compare,’ therefore you have no measurement...
1:20:25 Q: …you don’t know what you are.
1:20:28 K: ...you are not. Therefore – go on, sir – when you have gone through that, your mind is much more alive, sensitive and therefore intelligent. ‘More’ – it is intelligent, not clever. I don’t know if you follow.
1:20:50 Q: Sir, if you accept this for yourself – say you’re a student in a school and you accept it – how do you stop being told by others in comparison?
1:21:00 K: No, I don’t pay any attention to what others say. I’m in a school and they say, ‘You are a dull boy.’ I mean, the boys are not so intelligent, poor things. They’ve been conditioned, you know, from childhood. They say, ‘You’re not like your brother who is so bright, darling,’ (laughter) you know, all the rest of it, and you have already killed him. ‘You don’t swim so well as Tom does’ – finished.
1:21:36 Q: What can we do about these things for our children?
1:21:41 K: I’ll show it to you. Can you live with somebody, with your children, not comparing at all? And if I have a child I would say, ‘Don’t compare.’ Teach him, talk to him. You follow, sir? Oh, my lord!
1:21:58 Q: But the teachers are still comparing.
1:22:00 K: Therefore I would say, ‘Look, the teachers are going to compare. Don’t pay attention’ – you know? – ‘Watch out. They are dangerous, they are crooks.’ (Laughter)
1:22:10 Q: I’m talking about the mechanism rather than the understanding.
1:22:15 K: The moment... Sir, if the parent is alive and watchful, you know, himself is not comparing, he does a great deal – harm. (Laughs)
1:22:27 Q: Are you saying that asking fundamental questions must bring you to the state of you just don’t know?
1:22:33 K: No, that becomes a trick. No, no, be careful, be careful, be careful.
1:22:36 Q: It just happens, doesn’t it?
1:22:38 K: Yes. But if it becomes a trick then you have… it’s like, you know, a trick doesn’t produce a right answer.
1:22:44 Q: I’m asking: does that knock out the tape measure then?
1:22:47 K: Sir, watch in your life if you measure. If you say, ‘I’m better than yesterday, things are different’ – you follow? – measure. Is goodness measurable? No, no. You follow, sir? But society measures. Because society says this is more beautiful than that. A flower doesn’t compare. It is a flower. But we have learnt the trick of comparison, thinking that it will bring us… it will make us progress – better cars, the latest model – which is right in that field, but when that is applied to myself, that is, I must be the latest crook, latest fashionable man or the latest… I must maintain my fame. You know, all that rot that goes on. So can I live a daily life without measurement? Find out, sir. It’s marvellous if you can live without measuring yourself with the past or with the future. Therefore when you don’t measure all the phoney gods disappear, all the saints disappear. You understand, sir? So I’ve found that it is possible to live in this world without conflict when there is no measurement.
1:25:07 Q: Why do we measure?
1:25:15 K: I told you.
1:25:18 Q: To become.
1:25:20 K: We want to become, we want to be noble, we want to change, we want to become brighter, we want to reach enlightenment, we want to reach God, we want to improve the society according to my pattern – you follow? – the communist, the socialist, the Catholic. You follow? The same game played by all of them.
1:25:39 Q: Because we are unhappy now.
1:25:41 K: No. Please, sir, I want to become, I want to be somebody. You know, measure. You know, sir. You know what it means. And to find out if there is a living without measurement. That means to find out if I can live without measurement, comparison, and therefore conformity, I have to be very much aware. Deeply inwardly I have to be aware whether I am looking at… You know? Aware.
1:26:37 Q: There is no profit whatsoever in this.
1:26:43 K: In this.
1:26:44 Q: In a way.
1:26:45 K: There is no profit. No, no. There is no profit. You can’t fill your pockets with it. (Laughter) There is no profit at all in any of this. You understand? No reward, no initiations, you don’t reach nirvana, you don’t get nearer God or sit right-hand – nothing. Oh, you don’t know. That’s why, sir, it’s very important to do this because then – go as far as that, actually go, not theoretically, actually go as far as that – then you can ask the question: what is going on then? What is the mind that is incapable of measurement? You understand, sir? What is the quality of the mind that has no measurement? It has no hierarchy. Hierarchy in the sense, more, more, more, more, higher and higher and higher, the VIPs for itself. So what is that quality of the mind that has no measurement at all?
1:28:09 Q: Peace.
1:28:12 K: No, sir, go into it. You see? Now, unless you do this things become merely theoretical and verbal. So can I bring up my children in spite of their going to the school, in spite of Hitlerism, not only in Germany but Hitlerism right through the world – which is, make the boy conform – you follow? – compare, feed his competitiveness. You know, all the rest of it. Can I help that boy not to live without comparing? It becomes fun then. You follow, sir?
1:29:04 Q: Isn’t this a form of conditioning?
1:29:07 Q: No.
1:29:09 K: No.
1:29:10 Q: Teaching a boy and children not to compare, is this a form of conditioning?
1:29:18 K: No. No, no. It all depends how you teach. If you say, ‘Don’t compare.’ You know? I mean, if you... But if you discuss, talk, point out, not impose. You follow? You know all the rest of it. Which means if you really see the truth, the truth of a life without comparison – see the truth of it, the beauty, the inwardness of it – then you can’t help teaching the boy, because of your very proximity with him, your affection, your love for him. Because he then knows that you really care for him. You follow what I mean? And all the rest of it.
1:30:15 Q: Sir, where would conformity end and nonconformity begin?
1:30:18 K: No, sir, there is only the end of conformity not the beginning of nonconformity. Because as we said, conformity and nonconformity are the same. But to be free of conformity is what we are talking about, the implications of conformity and to learn all about conformity. Not how not to conform. Sir, it’s like this: if I know, if I really understand what co-operation is, really, deeply what it means – I cannot co-operate if I’m ambitious, obviously; if I am competitive, I can’t co-operate; if I say I must be better than you in co-operation – so when I have really deeply understood and therefore live a life of co-operation then I will also know when not to co-operate. But I can’t know what it is not to co-operate before I know what it means to co-operate. I don’t know if you follow. Don’t put the other one first, that’s all. Isn’t it time?
1:31:41 Q: (Inaudible)
1:31:43 K: Haven’t we touched all these questions? Children, whether one can live in this world, the practical answer to all this, the aloneness, being alone. I think we have touched, more or less. Are you conditioned by what somebody says? Doesn’t matter who it is. Or you see the truth of what somebody says. See it. You follow? Not agree with it, say, ‘Yes, I’m of the same opinion,’ but see the truth of what somebody else is saying. Do you see the truth of it? And when you see the truth of it, are you conditioned? When you see the truth that if you go out into that harbour you might be eaten by sharks – the truth, you follow, that there are sharks and most dangerous – does that fact condition you? Which is, you won’t go out there, unless you are on a boat. You follow? You won’t go out there swimming. Therefore the fact that it is a danger is not conditioning. You follow, sir? But if you say, ‘Well, what this man says is marvellous, I’m accepting everything he says,’ that’s too silly. That is, you’ve become conditioned. But if you say, ‘I’ll go step by step and see the truth of everything or the falseness of what he says,’ then you… (inaudible). Are you conditioned because you see the fact that this is a microphone? But when you don’t know the fact and believe, which is to accept as true, then accepting as true conditions you. This is so... Like the Christian, like the Hindu and the Muslim and so on, they say, ‘We don’t know, but we believe,’ and that belief conditions them. (Pause)
1:34:28 Q: Can I ask one more question?
1:34:41 K: Yes, sir.
1:34:47 Q: We all accept I think the world is in state of conflict. We have discussed during the last few days various things that change the thought which we should point out. Although one might accept that every human being has the capacity for this form of reasoning and thinking, do you feel that it is for everybody or only for some?
1:35:21 K: I think it is everybody who gives time and energy to this. If you give your… Sir, I don’t know, if you give your time and your energy and your life to this, well, it’s yours. You follow, sir?
1:35:39 Q: Yes.
1:35:41 K: You become a pro. (Laughs) I mean, I used to play golf and I used to play top-notch, you know, first class and all the rest of it, and I spent three rounds a day with professionals. You follow what I mean? But if you sit on the golf links and enjoy the sun you’ll never be a golfer. (Laughter)
1:36:10 Q: Yes. A little earlier you asked why you conformed and you said that you came upon the answer. Can you tell us how you came upon that?
1:36:19 K: I told you, sir. My mind was completely quiet. I had no formula. I listened to all the formulas and…
1:36:35 Q: You took the broadest view.
1:36:37 K: No, no, no, no. Sir, look, there is that tree, with a deep root, a tree with many branches, and all the branches were these explanations: fear, lonely – you know, all that was explained. I said that is not quite the answer; there must be a deeper answer. I don’t know. I really didn’t know. You follow? When I was looking I was watching, I was waiting very quietly. I was looking out there – you follow? – and said: that’s it: to be. The verb ‘to be’. You follow, sir? I’ve done this a great… This has been my life, sir – you understand? – forty-five or more years I have done this, so it came quickly. But if you have never done it then it’s a torture.
1:37:34 Q: It wasn’t a memory of some conclusion that you reached before?
1:37:41 K: No, no, that would be too silly.
1:37:42 Q: Yes.
1:37:43 Q: Sir, the problem seems to be, like you say, that you’ve got to give your time and your energy to it. The thing is that you spend a bit of time and energy on it and you can’t get there so you give it away, you know? You don’t stick to it. People don’t stick to it.
1:37:57 K: Quite right. You have to watch yourself, you know, and you have to play with it too. You know. Let everything go and go for a walk or a swim and go to a cinema. It isn’t just…
1:38:07 Q: But be aware that you’re going to the cinema.
1:38:10 K: That’s right. When you are eating be aware that you are eating and nothing else.
1:38:19 Q: But not to give up if we’re tortured. (Laughter)
1:38:31 Q: To be aware all the time with everything that you do.
1:38:36 K: No, sir, don’t use the word ‘all the time’. Be aware as much as you can. If you can’t, let it go. Sir, look, you’re aware for a few minutes or few seconds. Then you are unaware. Be aware that you are unaware. That’s all. Don’t do anything.
1:39:09 Q: That means…
1:39:10 K: Listen, listen. You haven’t listened. You’re aware for two minutes, a minute. Then your mind, you are not aware. Know that you’re not aware. Don’t try to become aware. Know that you’re not aware. I don’t know… If you try to become aware there is conflict. But if you say, ‘I’m not aware,’ then when you pick up again awareness you’re fresh. You follow? That is, be aware of inattention. That’s all.
1:39:46 Q: You don’t even get ashamed that you’re inattentive. (Laughter)
1:39:51 K: I have no authority, sir, to be ashamed of anybody. You follow? I don’t accept anybody as my authority, including myself, therefore why should I be ashamed? If I’ve done something wrong, I have done something wrong. You follow? I correct it.
1:40:37 Isn’t that enough? What time is it, sir?