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WO78DSS1 - The purpose of a Krishnamurti school
Wolf Lake School, Canada - 20 April 1978
Discussion with Staff and Students 1



0:19 Questioner: Perhaps we could discuss the purpose of a Krishnamurti school?
0:23 Krishnamurti: Yes, sir.
0:47 What do you think it means... what does it mean to be educated? And why should we be educated? For what reason? The meaning of that word 'education' means to draw out, to pull out. I don't quite know what it means, but it doesn't much matter what that word means.
1:38 You know, in a place like this, or in schools in India which we are concerned with, and also one in England and one in California, and here, what is important, it seems to me, is to understand what freedom means, what authority means, and what does it mean to learn? May we go into that? More or less, that is what is implied, isn't it? The word school, the root meaning of that word is leisure, to have leisure. Leisure means a mind that is unoccupied, not filled up with lots of worries, personal, etc. So, to learn, the mind must be free, must have time to learn, must have leisure to learn, must have a mind that is not completely occupied – that is the meaning. Because it is only when you have a great deal of leisure – we are going to discuss that word very carefully – that one can learn.
3:20 So there are several things involved in it. What do we mean by leisure and what do we mean by learning? I don't know if you have not noticed, if you have not sufficient time, curiosity, a sense of inquiry, you can't learn. Right? You must have curiosity, interest, and time for that interest to flower, to grow, to multiply, to increase. Right? Please, let's talk it over together. I am not laying down the law. I am not an authority, and I mean it – we will go into that very carefully, presently. So we mean by that word 'leisure' to have plenty of time for that curiosity to flower and so learn. But you have no leisure or time, if you are not free to inquire, if your mind, if your thinking is not all the time occupied with something or other – with play, with teasing each other, with food, with all kinds of thoughts that come into your mind. When that mind is not filled with all these thoughts then you have a certain amount of leisure in which to learn. Have I made that word leisure clear? It doesn't mean that you pick up a book or wander off into the woods or read something to be occupied. 'Go out and play', as they used to say in England in the old days when I used to be with some of them – 'It is a lovely day, let's go out and kill something.' So, unless you have this sense of leisure, a mind that is not occupied with yourself, with your pleasure, with your hair, with your face, with your colour, with your height, with your beauty, whether you are not this, you are not that – if it is not occupied, it is capable of learning. The word 'school' comes from the root of leisure, to have plenty of leisure in which to learn. Right? We will discuss this.
6:34 Then it also implies, to learn, there must be freedom. Now, what does freedom mean? I know what we like it to mean: to do anything we like to do. Right? To go out on a lovely day like this, to go on this river, walk, or play, or do anything but study, do everything that we want to do. That is what we consider, generally, freedom. Is that so? Does that imply freedom, to do what one likes? This is an immense question – you understand? – this isn't just a schoolboy question, it concerns, this idea of freedom concerns the whole world: the grown up people, young people, educators, scientists, philosophers, everyone is concerned with this word freedom. Even the Russians, the Soviets in Russia don't use that word, but the dissidents who are against the government are talking about freedom. Even in religions, especially in the East, the idea of freedom exists enormously. So we must find out what that word means. What does it mean to you?
8:16 Q: Well, freedom means to me that if someone is free inside, they are sort of free from possessions and stuff.
8:27 K: I don't quite follow.
8:30 Q: So that they...
8:40 K: Does freedom mean to you to do what you like?
8:45 Q: Yes.

K: Yes? Of course.
8:48 K: Generally, that is what it means. Anybody who stands in the way of what you want to do is called authoritarian. Right? I want to do something and you come along and prevent me from doing it and you say, you are preventing me from acting in freedom. Then you become the authority, the dictator, the tyrant, the parent, and so on. So, does freedom mean to do what you want to do, whatever you like to do? Now, in the West – that includes Europe, America and so on, the West – freedom generally implies that each individual, you, as a separate human being, are free to choose what you want to do – free to move from town to town, from job to job, from individual enterprise, and so on. That is generally what is considered freedom in the West. I am putting it very... in a very limited way – we will go into it presently. And opposed to that, there is the whole communist world – the world of Russia, China, and Eastern Europe say: that is nonsense. We are the State. People, human beings in that State, the citizens, must be controlled. So they have no choice, they can't go from job to job, from town to town, do anything, they must follow the rules or the pattern laid down by the authority of this politburo. That is the highest governing body. So there are these two systems.
11:16 You understand all this? One totally opposed to individual freedom, to do whatever they want to do. They can't read any book they want to read, they can't speak freely about their politics, criticise their government, and so on. Whereas in the West, including all America and Western Europe, each individual thinks he can do what he likes. He can go from job to job, from town to town, leave one thing, go and try another. Free enterprise, it is called. So there are these two enormous blocks of systems. Right? Do you understand this? Of course, you know all about it. So, each has its own complications, its own misery, its own confusion. The West says freedom means choice, to choose what you like. And in the tyrannical, totalitarian states you can't choose. The government chooses for you. You must work in that factory for the rest of your life. You must go to a certain university and if you are not good there then you will become a labourer, and so on – it is all a compulsive society there. Here, one thinks one is free. To start a school like this, you can't do that in the totalitarian states. So, this is considered, generally, freedom. Right? Now, we are going to question: what is freedom? Is this freedom? To do what one likes, choose what one likes, the job, the profession, the career. And the other world, they say you don't choose for yourself, we choose it for you. You understand? So there are these two systems of governments, economic, social, etc. So leaving those two systems aside for the moment, we will ask ourselves: what is freedom? What is actually freedom? Are you free? You can do what you like, but are you free? Free – not physically free. You understand? That is one side of the question – we will go into it. There is physical freedom and inward freedom – right? The psychological, which is the inward freedom, and physical freedom, the outward freedom. Understood? Right. In the Western world you are physically free but inwardly, aren't you all slaves? Because we imitate, we conform, we are traditional, we are afraid, all that is, inwardly, we are in a prison, but outwardly we can go and do what we like. I wonder if you get this. You can leave this school and go off to another school, or you can leave a particular job and go to another job. Whereas in the totalitarian states, physically you can't do all that. Psychologically, you can do what you like because that doesn't matter. Think what you like but don't put it into words. You understand? Here you are physically free. You want to go to a Vancouver school, you will ask the parents and they will send you there – if the parents are willing – and so on. So we are asking: what does it mean to be free? Not only biologically, physically, but also inwardly. What does it mean to be free?
17:06 Q: To be in touch.
17:11 K: Let's go into it very slowly, step by step. You see, mathematics – you know some – mathematics is sequence, isn't it? One thing after another. If there is no proper sequence, there is disorder. Right? So, let us be sequential, not jump to something or another. Let's go step by step in sequence so that at the end we will know there is order. Right? So, what do we mean by freedom? Does freedom mean to have no authority? There is the authority of the policeman. Keep to the – what is it? – here it is keep to the right, isn't it, or left?
18:29 Q: Right.

K: Right.
18:32 K: In Europe it is still right – keep to the right. In England, keep to the left when you are driving a car. If you disobey and drive to the right you might hurt yourself and kill somebody. So you obey. Right? That is, you obey because you might hurt others, you might hurt yourself. Which is order. Right? You are clear on this point? That is, obeying government law like keeping to the right – I mean left in England and right in the rest of the world, no, America too, don't you? Oh Lordy, I forgot. It is only in England then?
19:36 Q: And India.
19:37 K: And India, of course. Probably they will all change, everywhere will be driving right, presently. There is the authority that if you don't pay tax, they will punish you in different ways. So you have to follow that. So, where there is disorder, the very disorder creates authority. Right? Understood? Is that clear? You have heard of Mussolini, some of you? Of course. He came into power because Italy was totally in disorder. Trains were not running properly, luggage was stolen, tram cars didn't run properly and buses didn't, and so on. Gradually, Mussolini came into power. Out of disorder, he was created. Take a school of this kind, if there is disorder, each one doing what he likes, turning up when you like for meals, getting up when you like and, you know, disorder, then you are responsible for creating authority. Swallow that pill. Right? So authority exists when there is disorder. When there is order, there is no authority.
21:47 I am not asking you to be an orderly. We are going to examine first what those words 'order' and 'disorder' mean. As we said, in the Western world there is disorder, according to the totalitarian states. Because everybody gets up at a certain time, everybody goes to the same work, everybody goes, follows. But here, the democratic world is struggling through mess. In the totalitarian world there is no mess but there is complete authority. The authority has created order but that authority came out of disorder. You have got it? You understand it? So, freedom implies, doesn't it, that inwardly as well as outwardly, as long as there is complete order there is no authority. If everybody in this world behaved properly, honestly, there would need be no government. Because we are all so terribly dishonest, terribly selfish, the government says, look this is impossible. So, where there is disorder, each one doing what he likes, coming to meals when you like, going to bed when you like, attending class when you like, and so on, which is disorder in a small community like this, then out of this disorder, somebody says, please, for God's sake, let's organise this. And that creates authority. Is this clear? When I am disorderly, you are going to be the authority which I have created. Then I rebel against that authority, not realising that I have created it. Do you understand this? So there is a battle between the authority and myself – the authority being I who have created it. Got it? Do you understand this?
24:48 So, does order mean following somebody? Does order mean obeying? Does order mean following a routine, a mechanical routine? I get up every morning at six, do yoga – I don't know if you do yoga here – at six, and I won't break that under any circumstance. Six – you follow? – routine. Is that order? So I have to find out what is order? What is order? Go into it slowly, step by step. First, physically: your room – if you don't put your socks in the proper place, your dress in the proper place, your shoes in the proper place and your handkerchief in the proper place and so on, when you want to put on socks you will search all over the place. Waste of time. Waste of energy. Whereas, if you put everything in its proper place there is no disorder, you don't waste time, you know where your socks are exactly – and so on. Right?
26:51 So, doesn't order mean, both outwardly and inwardly, to put everything in its right place? Right? Inwardly, to put everything in its right place. Think it out what it means. Don't jump to conclusions. Don't say – this is so. Go into it, examine it, explore. What does it mean to put everything in its right place, inwardly? Which is called psychologically. One needs money, but if money becomes the whole world, if money is the only thing in my life, I put money not in its right place. Right? You get it? And – what are the other things we are so crazy about? Money – I won't go into sex – money, then what?
28:36 Q: Sex.
28:43 K: My golly, you know. Sex – all right. Why has the world made sex so important? You understand? You see, pick up a magazine, everything, sex, sex.
29:13 Q: It is all around us.
29:16 K: All around you. And it fills the world – right? Why? Why has sex become so colossally important? Probably, after money, that is the greatest thing in the world. Put everything in order: we said, when money becomes all my life, I am only seeking money all my life, it is out of place, isn't it? There are other things in life, too. So if sex fills all my world, it is out of place. But why has man, human beings, have made that into such an enormous, glorified, all-fulfilling existence? Think it out.
30:50 Q: One thing is, it gives the most pleasure to most people.
30:54 Q: It gives more pleasure.

K: Is that it?
30:57 Q: Also, it makes one feel more secure.
31:00 K: No, go step by step, step by step, not jump to something. There is the physical pleasure of it. So, pleasure has filled the world. Pleasure has become the most important thing, whether it is sex, whether it is the pleasure of when you have a lot of money you can do what you like, pleasure of buying this, possessing that, houses, furniture, lovely carpets and yachts – pleasure. Right? And when you block that pleasure, whether it is sexual pleasure or the pleasure of money, pleasure of possession, there is antagonism, a sense of unfulfilment. So you get angry, you become violent, you become neurotic. Right? So, why can't we put sex in its proper place, not fill the whole of my existence with that one thing? Which is a very difficult thing to do. So we say, don't bother about it, it is difficult, the thing to do is: whatever gives you pleasure, do it. Get on with it. Don't make a lot of fuss about it. With the result, there is disorder. With married people, with unmarried people, if that is the only thing in life that fills their life there is bound to be disorder. Entendu ça? Vous avez compris? Bien? Allez-y.
33:26 So, we said money, sex – what else is there? – which, if we don't put them in their proper place, there is disorder. Agree? As if you don't put your socks, dresses, shirts, etc., in the proper place, there is disorder in your room. And somebody comes along and says, please put those things in your drawer, in your proper place, you get angry, you say, you have become authoritarian. Right? So, it is your fault, not somebody has become the authority. Say for instance, if you all agreed to go to bed at ten, or whatever it is, eight or nine or ten, whatever you decide, and you don't go to bed after we all agreed that you would go to bed at eight or nine, ten, somebody says, oh please, you have sat up three nights now beyond the agreed time, then you turn around and say, look, I thought this was a free school and you are telling me what to do! You have become the authority. You follow? And you turn up when you like to lunch, or breakfast or dinner, which is a discourtesy to the people who prepare food, and we all agreed one o'clock or seven o'clock or six o'clock in the evening, or eight o'clock in the morning, and when you don't come there at the proper time agreed upon, then – you follow the sequence of it? The sequence of it, not somebody is authoritarian. You or we, if there is no order in our life, we are creating politically, religiously, ethically, authoritarian people. Got it? Now, so we say money, sex – what else is this there that man is pursuing? Pleasure, we said sex, pleasure in various forms.
35:54 Q: Power?
35:55 K: Good – power. Political power, power over people, if your ideas are better than mine you become powerful, if you paint better than me you become famous, more money, more pleasure. So, money, sex, power. Now, what do you mean by power? In a family – mother, father, children – the mothers and the fathers assume the power, status of power. They tell you what to do or what not to do. Right? And generally in the West they are rebelling against all that. In India they are too docile, the children say, all right, I will do whatever you want me to do. That is part of their enormous tradition, that you must obey the parents, you must worship the parents, you must listen to the parents, when the parents speak, don't speak, and so on and so on – that is in the East. They are conditioned to that. So they obey according to their conditioning. Here you have not that kind of conditioning. So, what do we mean by power? Man over woman – power. Or the woman over the man. That means dominating him, bullying him or her. Say, I possess you – man or woman – that gives them a power. So beyond that, what do we mean by power?
38:43 Q: Would it be who decides the criteria for order?
38:47 K: I beg your pardon?

Q: Who decides the criteria for order?
38:50 K: I can't make it out, here.
38:53 Mary Zimbalist: Who decides the criteria for order?
38:56 K: Nobody decides. Suppose we all agree that we go to bed at eight o'clock, or ten, nine, whatever it is. We all agree. Where is the criterion for order? We say, yes, that is good for you to go to bed at eight or nine, whatever we decide, because you are growing, you have to have proper rest, doctors say you must get eight to nine hours of sleep, it is excellent for you – we won't go into what is the reason you should go to bed at nine – to rest the mind – we won't go into all that for the moment. We all agree. Then what is the need for criteria? It is only when you oppose, and I want to say, you must go to bed, because I am an authority, I am the boss of the school or the principal of the school, I say, you must go to bed at eight. What I say then becomes the criterion. So here, we say, let's all talk it over together. Let's all be sensible. Let's all find out why you should go to bed at eight or nine or ten, whatever it is. Let's all agree that we have lunch at one o'clock, because of convenience and so on. It is only when we have agreed and you don't do something, then I say, please, you have agreed, and you react and say, you have become authoritarian, and rebel against what we have agreed. Right?
40:58 So, we are asking: what do we mean by power? There is power of money – tremendous power, or position, a status. The prime minister of a country has tremendous power. Or the general, the admiral, the first class engineer or a first class professor. He says, I know, you don't – I will tell you. You follow all this? So, a profession, a career can give you tremendous power if you are good, if you are excellent, if you are capable, you climb the ladder of power. And each person wants to climb that ladder of power. It gives him money, it gives him freedom, it gives him control over people. Right? Also, what do we mean by power? Go into it.
42:28 Q: Manipulation.
42:32 K: Yes, that is part of it. When I am climbing the ladder of power, I can manipulate people: I say, you go around there, and you say, by Jove, I also want to climb the ladder – you say, all right! So, the desire for power is manipulating people. Not you are manipulating me. My desire to have the same power as you have is manipulating you and me – desire for power. You understand what I am saying? The desire for power is manipulating, not you as Mr X and me as Y, manipulating you or you manipulating me. The desire for power is manipulating you as well as me.
43:21 You have got it? So, we say money – one may say, I don't want money but I want power. I don't mind about sex, but as long as I have power it is all right. As long as I have the status. When I come into the room everybody gets up because I am the prime minister or the bishop or the cardinal or the pope. Right? And there is much more to power than merely this. There is the desire to be somebody. Don't go to sleep yet. If you are bored, let's stop. So there is power in possession. If I own 10,000 acres – Wolf – that gives me tremendous power in a society that accepts ownership of land.
44:42 Right? And most of us are seeking power through success. Write a good book or a good novel, a thriller, and it is taken by the cinema, you become a very rich man – power. Every human being is driven by this desire to be somebody. Right? The somebody means money, sex, status, power. And to have a great deal of knowledge about mathematics, history – that gives me an excellent position and I have power in that. So knowledge gives power. I wonder if you realise all this. But I must have knowledge. But desire for power is stronger than putting knowledge in its right place. Right? Are you following all this? Does it interest you? So then we ask – we said money, sex, power. Then, what is man seeking: knowledge from books, from experience, from going to lectures, hearing this and hearing that. So, the accumulation of knowledge gives me a great sense of success, gives me power. If I am a professor, of not only mathematics but also first class in geography, economy and philosophy and law, and my goodness – this great sense of inward power as well as outward power. So, knowledge, when used by desire, which seeks power, then knowledge becomes a means of disorder. I wonder if you are following all this. You got it? Somebody got it? I will show you. We were talking about disorder, which is, if we don't put everything in their right place, naturally there is disorder. That is a simple principle. I mean, it is like gravity. You don't have to accept it but it is a fact. Jump out of the window, you will see what happens. So in the same way, if you don't put everything in order – socks, shoes – then there is disorder. So, if you don't put money in its proper place, but money becomes all important, then that creates disorder. Which is happening in this country, in America. Am I in Canada? Yes. When I don't put sex in its proper place, it assumes disordinate proportions, enormous significance. You follow? If I don't put power, which is, desire, wanting power, position, prestige, reputation. I am not satisfied having a reputation locally in a little pond, but I want world reputation. So, power, has power any place at all? You understand? Power, which is the desire to become, or be, or achieve something great which will give me power. A man who is capable, who has got executive capacity, that is all right in its place, but when he uses that as a means to power then it creates disorder. You are following this? I wonder. Is this too much? No?
50:32 Q: How do we find out how to put things in their right place?
50:37 K: We are doing it now. If we don't see that there will be total disorder if there is no right place for everything. If I don't see that then, of course, it is like putting your room in total disorder. So, if I learn the principle, the law, that by putting everything in order, in its place, there is complete order. So I have to learn what are the right places. Learn, not be told. So I have to learn what is the right place for money. Of course, it is very simple. I have to learn about it. If you tell me that is the right place and I obey it, that is disorder. Are you following this? Then I fight you, say you become the authority. I want to put my socks in that place, and there is a battle. So, if I understand the basic rule, basic principle, like gravity, that if I jump out of the window I will hurt myself tremendously. The higher the window the more dangerous it is. That is a law. In the same way, there is this principle, this law, that if we do not put everything in its right place there is disorder and out of that disorder comes authority, which we have created. Clear?
53:03 So, to learn to put money in its right place. Can you? Will you learn about it? Learn, inquire, find out. Not say, well... Right? Sex in the right place, and not let your universe be filled with sexual thoughts and pictures and all. And also power, the desire for power through knowledge, through money, through sex. You understand? All this is creating disorder – socially, in the world, you have seen what a mess it all is. They are preparing for war and say, let's talk about peace. They go to church and they say – whatever they do in church, I know what they do, you must have seen it too – pray, pray for peace and talk about peace and the Father, etc., and do exactly the opposite in daily life. And it means nothing, a total sham, total dishonesty. So have we, you and I, learned to put everything in its proper place? Then there is freedom, both inwardly and outwardly. You understand? Nobody has to tell me – do this, don't do this.
55:16 There are plenty of trees here, aren't there – unlike California. Spring is nearly over there, here it is just beginning. Once I was in Sicily – you know where Sicily is? – and spring had begun there, beautiful it was, mimosa and all kinds of flowers and beauty. And then I came gradually north and it began, and ended up in Holland, and there, just beginning.
56:08 So, freedom implies – that is again a law, like gravity – there is freedom only when there is order. Not created by governments, not created by a police state, not created by some utopian idiocy but brought about because each one of us has put everything in order. Will you do it? That is part of education. Not merely to learn mathematics and geography, but to learn in a school of this kind, where everything is in order inwardly and outward. Then you are such an extraordinary human being. You are a free human being. Not muddled, confused, angry, bitter, disappointed – which you will be if you don't learn this now.
57:49 So, what is the function of an educator, the teacher, and the student? You understand my question? No? What is the relationship between the teacher, the educator, and you the student? Is he merely telling you the facts about history, especially Canadian history? Or if you are an American, only American history? So we are asking: what is the relationship between the educator, the teacher, and you the student? So I said: what is the function of a teacher and you? Is he merely giving facts about mathematics, history, geography and chemistry and biology and so on? He knows and you don't know. He sits on a pedestal, you are down there. Is that it?
59:39 Q: Are you asking about here? Are you asking how it is here?
59:43 K: Ah, I am asking, not only how it is here, but generally first. Let's begin generally, much simpler, and they we will come here. Safer. Then you won't throw bricks at me. Go on. What is the relationship between the teacher and the student, generally, in the world that is all around us? There is no relationship at all, is there? Don't agree with me, for goodness sake.
1:00:29 Q: In the outside schools the teacher is the one who knows.
1:00:33 K: Yes, he sits on a platform and tells you what to do for an hour and then buzzes off to another class and you rush off to another class – this goes on. Right? He is informing you, he is telling you about mathematics, history. So he is telling you all that. He is telling you facts. At least, facts according to his knowledge which he has learned from books or from a professor. The professor has learned from someone, and so on. Right? Now, in that relationship, what takes place?
1:01:27 Q: Usually the student has to respect the teacher because he is on a higher level.
1:01:35 K: Yes, a higher level, you respect him or you are frightened of him.
1:01:39 K: No, frightened, you can't use the word respect when you are frightened. So, then what takes place? There is no relationship. Now, the teacher – I am not talking of the teachers here, we will come to that presently, I hope you will forgive me – the teacher in an ordinary school lives in disorder, obviously. According to the principle which we have agreed: when you don't put everything in its right place there is disorder. That is a law. That is a principle, like gravity. Now, most teachers, unless they are extraordinarily exceptional, live in disorder. They are human beings, only their career or their profession is to teach. So, you are in disorder and the teacher is in disorder. You are following this? So, he talks about mathematics, which is sequentially orderly, and you learn that. Which is, gather information, store it up in the brain, and then later on if you want to be an engineer you use that knowledge in mathematics – pressure, strain, etc.
1:03:40 But an excellent teacher, really first class, a first class human being, – more than a teacher, teacher is just a career but a human being – if he becomes a teacher, then his relationship with you is: he says, I am disorderly, my friends. You are disorderly. So let us find out how to put everything in order, in its right place. You understand? Then you and I have a relationship. I don't sit on a platform and say, well, do this, don't do that, etc. – but I say, look, I live disorderly. I know I do. I may be outwardly most extraordinarily orderly: put the books in the right place, my socks in the right place, but inwardly I am boiling, disorderly, wanting money, you know, disorderly. So, if I was a teacher – if I was a teacher – I would come, I would say, look, let's forget for a moment mathematics or history or geography. I am in disorder and you are in disorder, let's find out if we can learn to put things in order – in myself also, I am not telling you to do it. But by talking it over with you I am also learning. So learning becomes the common factor between us, learning where to put things in their proper place. Will you do all this? Is it time?
1:05:51 Q: Five after twelve.
1:05:54 K: How long do you want me to go on? No, you can't take more than a certain amount. What is the general rule or general agreement? That I go on till lunchtime? No. When is lunchtime?
1:06:14 Q: Lunch is at one, but maybe if we could go on till twelve-thirty.
1:06:21 K: Do you want to? You are not tired? You won't insult me, I am nobody. If you say, no, buzz off, I say, I will buzz off! You want me to go into all this? Enough?
1:06:44 Q: No, go on.
1:06:46 K: Oh, go on. All right. So, if I was a teacher here in this school, that is one of the major things I would do. I would establish right relationship between you and me. It cannot exist if I am on the platform, merely on the platform and telling you facts and go off. But I would establish right relationship with you and say, look, we are both in the same boat. Which is, I am willing to expose myself to you. You understand? And you are willing to expose yourself to me. Not just one-sided. Say, look, we both live in disorder, confusion, uncertainty, we are both unhappy, are both miserable, so let's be free of all that. Right? And in talking it over with you I am also putting myself inwardly in order. I will see to it. It is like gravity. If I don't, I fall down. If I have understood that very, very deeply, as a tremendous fact in life, an absolute fact, not fact one day and not fact another day – an absolute, irrevocable fact, law, then, in talking over with you, I say, all right, let's both do it. I am helping you, you are helping me. Then there is an extraordinary relationship between us. Then I am concerned about you and you are concerned about me. I care for you and you care for me, because you say, by Jove, sir, are you all right? And I care about you. I say, are you eating properly? Have you got the right food? Why do you dress that way? You follow? Walk properly. You tell me too. So it is a kind of interrelationship.
1:09:33 And that, perhaps, is affection, is perhaps the thing called love. Now, to come from the general to the particular: does it exist here? Are you shaking your head because a hair is in your eyes or do you disagree? If it doesn't or if it does, can we create it? Together – not we create and you join, together, all of us, create such a school where the teacher and the student are in a relationship in which each is concerned about the other. Both are learning to put everything in its right place. Can we do this here? If we cannot, then what is it that is preventing us?
1:11:12 Q: Disorder.
1:11:15 K: What is preventing us?
1:11:18 Q: Imbalance.
1:11:20 K: So, that means what? That I am merely an ordinary teacher. Because I am here – I just get 100 dollars or 200 dollars or 50 dollars more than somewhere else – then you won't create a school. You will create an ordinary school like everybody else but you won't create the real kind of school, real kind of education. Education implies not only learning mathematics, history and physics and biology but also learning about yourself, about everything in life. Now, can we create a place like that here? Will you help us to do it? Both at your own home and here so that there is no division between home and here.
1:12:50 You know, we are in California, at Ojai, they are trying to bring the parents into this. You understand? The parents need education – this kind of education – as well as the teacher, as well as yourself, so it is a three-party affair: parents, teachers and you. That is what they are trying to do in California, at Ojai. In Indian schools – there are five of them – this is almost impossible, for various economic, social, traditional, superstitious reasons. We have tried it, but it is like fighting a dead weight. But it will take time. Gradually, I hope, something will... In Brockwood, it is different, in England, where they are between 14 and 81 – not 81 – 18 or 20.
1:14:10 Now, can we, here – because we are just beginning, a few of us, a small community – can we create such a school? Otherwise it isn't worth it. If we cannot create such a school, stop it. It is not worth it, not worth expending all your energy and money and worry, etc. Which means we are all in the same boat, you are not out of it. You have to talk to your parents, you have to be as interested as the others are, we are, if the teachers are also with us. You see, this gives tremendous vitality, interest, energy. If you say, oh my God, it is a damn bore coming to class, teach mathematics, because it is the same old stuff, and the students aren't interested and I have to compel them to be interested, oh, goodness – it becomes an awful bore. The teacher gets tired, you get tired, and you would like to leave. And he is bored and he says, oh, for goodness sake, I am going to do yoga. I am going out for a walk. Or, I am going to chase a girl or a boy. You understand what I am saying? So, it means, to create such a school, means that we are all working together to bring it about. You and the rest of us, the young and the old. Will you do it? Absolute silence.
1:16:29 Q: Yes.
1:16:50 K: Will you do it? No, do it. When you do something, do it with all your heart and give your whole thing to it, not just yes today, and tomorrow say, for God's sake. You will have to give your life to this – this is your life. So, will the grown-up people who are teachers here do it?
1:17:44 Q: I think they will.
1:17:47 K: They will? What makes you say it? I am delighted to hear it, but what makes you say it?
1:17:54 Q: Because I think they are already doing it.
1:17:59 K: What, putting everything in order?
1:18:03 Q: Helping us do it.
1:18:04 K: Wait, don't jump to things. Are they putting their own life in order as well as yours? Helping each other? Be quite sure, not deceive ourselves. You know, that is very easy to say yes, everything is in order, but that is like putting on a clean shirt without washing. Naturally, one can't talk about others, can one? But are you doing it? Am I doing it? If I am doing it, I will help you to do it. I will say, for God's sake, look, how marvellous to live this way. I will be full of enthusiasm and full of delight to show you. But if I am not, then I will talk about it, then I will be a terrible hypocrite, a sham, a thing that is not worth listening to. Once you see the principle of it, the truth of it, then everything comes right. But if you don't see it, then you are playing. I mean, it is only some kind of – a loony, some kind of disoriented, neurotic, he jumps out of the window knowing he is going to kill himself. But if you are sane, healthy, you say, it is too dangerous, even that thought doesn't occur to you. So in the same way, if you really see as a law in life, like gravity, that where you haven't put everything in its proper place, it is like jumping out of the window. Perhaps that may be the motto of the school. No, I am just joking, sorry.
1:21:32 You see, I have been doing this all my life. I have been doing it for 50 years, I have put everything – I won't tell you. It is absurd to say I have. So, to do exercise in its right time. I do yoga for an hour and a half every morning. Not just because – it gives me fun to do it properly, to do it excellently, with grace, with a certain sense of élan. So I put exercise in its right place, and to do it with grace. Do you know anything about yoga? Is somebody teaching here? Who is teaching? Who? Oh, you. And to have an excellent brain. To think very, very clearly. And you can think clearly only when it is objective, not personal, my reactions, I think according to my way, according to my like – to think clearly, objectively, impersonally, not according to my prejudice, my fixations, my conclusions. And you cannot have an excellent brain if there is any kind of fear. Is that enough for this morning?
1:24:11 Because I don't want to enter into the question of fear because it is too complicated.