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WO78DSS2 - Is it possible to be free of pressure?
Wolf Lake School, Canada - 21 April 1978
Discussion with Staff and Students 2



0:17 Krishnamurti: Should I talk first? Should I begin? I hope you don't think me impudent or personal or inquisitive, but I think we should – by my asking you a question – perhaps we shall be able to understand each other much more. I would like to ask again, if I may, and please don't think I am impudent: are we here, as teachers, educators, as a stepping stone to further things? You understand my question?
1:26 Questioner: You mean ourselves?
1:28 K: Ourselves and our work. This is a temporary abode, a temporary state, and from here, move to a higher level or further away. I think we ought to answer this question because if we are going to create a school of this kind together we must be very clear what our intentions are. Not for a short period but for the entire of our life. I think we ought to be clear on that matter. Because if we are using this as merely a stepping stone to further, higher, away from here then that has quite its own movement, but whereas if we say this is what we really want to do, completely, totally, it is our deep conviction, deep interest to create such a school, then that has a totally different movement. You understand?
2:54 So, I would like to ask, if I may, please, perhaps you would not like to answer it – don't even answer it but let me put the question to you: is this, or rather, are you, if I may ask, serious about all this?
3:31 If we are serious, if our intention is to create a school together – not the two sisters but together, all of us, then we shall not form groups within each other, opposed to each other, or take sides against another, but together, we are in the same boat. Therefore it becomes very serious to be quite sure that we really mean business. That is all I would like to ask. Business, I mean, we have got a tremendous uphill fight, especially in Canada. We are not known as a school, right through Canada – perhaps around here in the radius of five miles, three miles, we may be known, but throughout Canada we are not known. We must be known throughout Canada. How is that possible? Because we need, obviously more children, more teachers – it must expand. And are we willing together to share this burden of expansion, of intensity, interest and a sense of dedication? Sorry to put it all in one. And if we leave it to a few others, the two sisters or myself or somebody, it won't be anything. If we are together we will create it. And to be together in this matter implies that we are serious, that it is our home, it is our place, and we are totally committed to this.
6:17 You know, when we started the schools in India, I happened to be the head of it – it doesn't matter, I will talk about it casually – and when we began, in Rishi Valley in south India, we had no lights, no electricity, little water, and we got up with the sun and went to bed with the sun. We had no convenience of any kind whatsoever. But there were a group of people, the principal and a few teachers, who said this is the thing we want to do for the rest of our life. We slept on the floor, we went through all kinds of difficulties. And it has grown from that dedicated few people into a great big affair, with 300 students and they are going to have teachers training, and all kinds of things are going to take place. There are nearly 400 acres – anyhow, all that. But I am merely pointing out, if you don't mind, that the few who began were completely, totally dedicated to this. And have we that kind of – not that it is dead and past – but are we in that same position of total, complete urge to create such a school? Not leave it to one or two people but all of us together creating this. Whether we should move from here, this place, to Wolf Lake, which implies a lot of money I have been told, and it will expand. It is too small here, we need a much larger place. If we all decide this together then we will do it. If not, we must right from the beginning be very clear what we want. It implies that between ourselves, with this small community, there should be no quarrels, no groups, no one group, a few of us taking sides. We are together in this. And how is this school to be known throughout Canada? That is one of our problems. If it is not known, you won't get the right kind of student, the right kind of teachers, the backing, money, etc. Now, one of the questions says: how shall we let Canada know that we exist? That is one problem. Then if we move from here to Wolf Lake, where it is possible to expand into a school, high school, college, – expand, not just be a little affair, then we would need many, many more people, more money, the whole thing. But unless we start rightly, the right germ, right from the beginning, you won't have anything.
11:18 We are having a new school in India, for example, just being started, near Bangalore. You have heard where Bangalore is? West of Madras. You know Madras, of course. And we have got there 110 acres, or a 115 acres, beautiful land, almost virgin soil, and I have said, don't start it unless there are a few people there who are completely involved in it, otherwise shut up the place. Not worth starting, with all the quarrels and one group against another group – you know, all that begins. I said, don't do it unless you have the right kind of teachers, the parents will support you, and a group of people who are completely involved in it. Since I left India, they are collecting such a group. It is going to start next June or July, this year. You understand what I am trying to tell you? Don't let us do a thing until we are completely involved in it, otherwise let's shut up shop.
13:07 What is involved, if I may ask, or if I may suggest, or if we may explore together – explore, investigate together – what is implied in being together in this project, in this school – what is implied? For me, if I may point out, money is a secondary question. Not that money is not necessary, we need it tremendously, but if we put money as the main thing then we shall not get it, we shall not create the school. Money is necessary, but also teachers or educators who know what we are doing, what we are all talking about, what is involved. So I would like to discuss that with you, if I may – may I? First of all, this is an international school. It is not a Canadian school, or Victoria's school in Victoria, identified with a particular spot, with a particular group of people, but an international school. Like Ojai, like Brockwood. Ojai just started a year ago and Brockwood, in England, in Hampshire – if you know where that is, that is next to Winchester, near Southampton, 20 miles away from Southampton – with 40 acres, 60 students, and we said no more than 60 because it is an old house, a mansion, owned by very rich people at one time, and they had to sell it for various reasons, we got it by chance, we had not a cent. Please believe me, we had not a cent when we started saying we must have a school in England. Not one farthing, penny. And they asked – 40 acres with that house which is 17th century, I have forgotten, it doesn't matter – and they asked a 100,000 dollars for the house and 40 acres which was quite cheap in those days in Hampshire. You understand? We had not a cent. I was in California at Ojai and they sent all the photographs, and I said, let's get it. Somebody, a few days later said, I will give you that money. We got it. And now, through donations and talks, etc., I am sure we have spent over 250,000 dollars, a quarter of a million dollars, in that place. Because there are a group of people there who said, this is it. You understand what I am saying? So, what are the things that are utterly important here? As there are only very, very few of us, we shouldn't have any division amongst ourselves. That is, we all talk over things together. Is that possible? That is one point.
17:28 And what is the relationship of the teachers, the people here, to the students? Because if we don't start from the very beginning in the right direction, it will go to pieces. So what is the relationship? Is it a group of people who are not really interested in the right kind of education but are merely passing time? So we are to inquire, if we may, what is right education? Is that all right to go on like this? What is right education? Please, let's discuss it, I am not laying down the law. Right education, it seems to me, is the cultivation of the total, of the whole of man. Of the whole of the student, not only the biological, physiological excellency of the body, right food and so on, but also to understand the whole psychological structure of every student and each one of ourselves. That is, to be concerned with the totality of a human being, apart from the academic side. And is it possible to teach academically, and in the very teaching of the various subjects cultivate or bring into being affection, care, the whole psychological existence which at present is confused, miserable and utterly degrading. So this is the second problem. And if we say we are not capable of it – I am just putting that forward, you may be most extraordinarily capable – but if we say we are not capable of this total dedication and the cultivation of the entire human being, I think it will be a mistake to say that we can't do it. If this is our interest, you will have capacity, energy, everything comes out of it. You understand what I mean? Say, for instance, in Brockwood and in India too, you get teachers who are really not teachers at all, you know. They take a degree and they can't get any other job, and so they become teachers. There was an advertisement in a newspaper in Madras, which I read, which said they needed a cook, advertising for a cook. And do you know how many people turned up? I don't know, at least a thousand – PhDs, MAs. That country is an exception because there is overpopulation, etc. Now, can we do this? Together, not one does it, others don't do it. If one does it, the others destroy what he is doing. We must all be together in this. Can we do this? That is, physically to have an excellent body, which implies right food and right exercise, no smoking, no drinking or drugs – all that. Right? Naturally. It affects the mind, it affects the brain. And I think, physiologically, to look after the organism is fairly simple, if the students cooperate too. Which means we have to go into it all, explain very carefully why it is necessary. Then, psychologically, inwardly, to bring about an excellent brain. Can we do that? I mean an excellent brain, a brain that is not damaged, a brain that is not deformed through any form of pressure. You understand? You understand what I am talking about? No? If you put any pressure on anything, it is deformed. If you have a great weight on your tummy all the time, it distends in the wrong direction, obviously. So, can we bring up students, educate them not to have any kind of pressure? Go into it and see what is involved in it. Say, for instance, a student, if I am the educator, I must help him to study, say mathematics, or history, so that the very teaching doesn't involve a pressure on him. Is that possible? The student is not interested in mathematics, it is a bore. So how will you help him? To teach history, mathematics and so on, physics, how will you teach him or help him to understand the necessity of learning about mathematics without any pressure from you or from society, or from the parents? It is a problem, isn't it? How will you do it? If you see that any pressure of any kind, whether the pressure of affection – do it for my sake, old boy. I mean, that is a pressure. If you say, study properly, you will pass examinations, that is a pressure. If you say, learn mathematics and you will get marks, that is a pressure.
26:23 Q: The child's mind gets distorted.
26:32 K: Is already distorted. I agree. So, there are two problems: how to prevent further deterioration, further distortion, and how to help him to be free – free of his already established distortion. How will you do it?
27:00 Q: Krishnaji, that is one of the biggest problems we have here.
27:03 K: I know. Please, go into it, don't give it up. Don't say, I don't know. What shall I do? I am a teacher. I know the child is already deformed, not physically, but in the brain. Would you say he is deformed already?
27:26 Q: So are we.
27:29 Q: We are also deformed.

K: Wait, I am coming to that.
27:32 K: First, take the child. He is deformed. He is conditioned. He is already under tremendous pressure from the parents, from other students, from his friends. He comes here already distorted. Would you agree to that? That is a fact, isn't it? So how shall we in our relationship with the student free him or help him to be free of that distortion, of that conditioning, of that pressure?
28:13 Q: Perhaps by making him aware of his own condition.
28:20 K: How will you do it? What manner? What is your approach to this?
28:26 K: You understand what I mean?

Q: I understand.
28:29 K: I have a student there. What is my approach? Because that is important. If I approach it rightly, the problem is very simple. Right? Now, how do I approach it? I am deformed and the student is deformed. I don't say, my brain is first class, no deformation of any kind, and it hasn't been under pressure of any kind, therefore it is very pristinely alive, clear, unspotted. I am not, and the student is not. So, my relationship with him is, with regard to this question, say, look, we are on the same boat, we are on the same level, your brain is under pressure, so is mine, so let us talk it over together. So that in talking it over together, not merely verbally, I see that I am deformed. You follow? So, it is a mutual investigation into one's own pressures. I wonder if I am making that clear.
30:02 Q: But it has to be both ways.
30:07 K: Of course, that is what I said.
30:09 Q: A lot of the children, and most of us, aren't aware.
30:13 K: We are going to be. By talking over with the student, we begin to explore. He begins to say, well, I am like you, old boy, it doesn't make any difference. You say, I am not your teacher in the sense I am a great man, but here we are both together caught in the same thing. Your brain is distorted through various pressures, so is mine. Can we say that honestly to the student? If not, he thinks, he is a hypocrite, he is playing a game with me. Can we together say, this is the first thing, to establish a relationship with the student on the same footing.
31:12 Q: We also have to explore verbally and non-verbally.
31:16 K: We will do it, both.
31:18 Q: Could you go into that a little bit?
31:20 K: Which first? Verbally. You are my student, let's say for the moment – actually you are not, but for the moment you are – I say to you, look, when you come into the class, let's for at least ten minutes forget about the subject we are going to study. Let's talk about this. And the student is looking out of the window. He is bored with what you are going to say. He doesn't know what you are going to say but he is already convinced that you are going to tell him something dreadful or something that you should or should not. So he doesn't pay any attention to you. He is looking out of the window. How will you get his attention? That is the first thing, isn't it? How will you get his attention? Without pressure.
32:21 Q: Perhaps if he feels the seriousness.
32:23 K: No, look at it, you want his attention. You want him to pay attention to what you are going to say. When you are going to teach mathematics, history or geography, whatever it is, you want him to attend and he is looking out of the window. How will you help him to attend? Not about anything, your subject or what you are going to say, but to have the capacity to attend. I wonder if I am making it clear. No?
33:05 Q: You can look out the window with him.
33:08 K: Yes. Go on, pursue that. You are looking out of the window. What is he interested in? At the moment he is looking out of the window and seeing all those birds or trees and flowers. He is looking. His interest, his attention is there. So, ask him to look more clearly, without any resistance to you. I wonder if you understand what I mean. So, you help him to look more, with greater attention.
33:59 Q: At what he is already looking at.
34:03 K: Yes. It may be an ant going across the floor.
34:07 Q: What if he is daydreaming? What if he is not looking out of the window at the birds, but he is daydreaming?
34:13 K: Daydreaming – let him daydream. I go at it very gently. I talk to him. What are you daydreaming about? Let's talk about it.
34:25 Q: And then how do you get him back to the maths?
34:30 K: I am not interested in the maths. Mathematics – I am not. I want him to learn attention. My concern as a teacher is that he should listen to me with attention, without any pressure from me. Because once he has that, you can turn to mathematics or history or whatever it is. But if you haven't got that attention, he will listen to you, he will become mechanical. You understand?
35:11 Q: How do you bring the attention...

K: I am going to show you.
35:14 K: Go on, you investigate, don't ask me. I will show it to you in a minute. How do you do it? This is your problem as teachers, as educators. You want him to learn or have this capacity of attention. How will you do it? And not under any kind of pressure. Then it is not attention. Go on, sir. How will you work it out?
35:54 Q: It might possibly relate to what he is attending to at the moment.
35:58 K: Yes, so continue with that. He is following an ant, or the beetle on the wall, or looking out of the window, and you say, all right, look at the ant more carefully, find out how many legs – watch him very carefully. So he knows you are not condemning it. He knows that you are also helping him to look. So you are not creating a resistance in him. Right? So he is free to look. Go on, I will stop there, you go on. He is free to look. So you have established a relationship with him in which there is no resistance on his part. Right?
37:13 Q: But...

K: Wait, see what you have done, first. That you have established a relationship in which you are not the big man and he is the little man. There is no resistance. Right? Can you do that? Absolutely no resistance on his part.
37:44 Q: I think you can do that.
37:46 K: Yes. Then what? What does that imply when there is no resistance between you and the other, and the student? What is the relationship of that?
38:03 Q: Communicating.
38:07 K: What is the actual relationship?
38:13 Q: Two people inquiring.
38:15 K: No, he is not resisting you. Right? He doesn't put up a barrier. So I am asking, when there is no barrier between you and the student, what is that relationship?
38:36 Q: One of harmony?
38:40 K: Not harmony – do look at it please. If you have no resistance to what I am going to say, or resistance to what I am saying, what is our relationship?
38:59 Q: There is no pressure.
39:02 K: Which means what?
39:03 Q: Which means that...
39:07 K: Don't guess, see actually what takes place.
39:14 Q: I am trying to find out what takes place between you and me.
39:18 K: Yes. What takes place? If you resist me about what I am going to say, you won't listen. But if I bring about a state in which you don't resist me, which is, watch the ant, then there is no resistance. Watch the beetle going across. So we are both watching. Right? What is that state of relationship when we are both watching?
40:01 Q: Why is it so important to find out that state? Why is it so important for you to identify that state?
40:10 K: I don't identify myself. We are both watching the beetle.
40:14 Q: Well, why are you asking me?
40:18 Q: Why are you asking me?

K: I am asking you, if you have no resistance to what I am going to say, or I have said, and we are both watching the beetle, what is our relationship? The student and the teacher, what is our relationship? What has taken place?
40:46 Q: It is a learning relationship.
40:51 Q: Learning.

K: No.
40:54 Q: There is mutual interest.
40:57 Q: There is no thought and therefore you are...
40:59 K: No, a little more. Go slowly, you are guessing. Sorry. I am not being rude but you are guessing, you are not actually seeing the real relationship that takes place when I am not resisting, you are not resisting, we are watching.
41:30 Q: I would call that cooperation.
41:37 K: I am sorry. Look, some of you have got girlfriends and are married or whatever you have – right? When one resists the other, what happens?
41:52 Q: Conflict.

K: Conflict.
41:57 K: When there is no conflict between the two, what takes place? What actually has happened? Gee Whillikins.
42:17 Q: Why is it so important to know what takes place?
42:21 K: Because if you don't know what takes place actually, you are living in theories.
42:33 Q: Actually – what do you mean by actually? Mentally by identifying?
42:37 K: I am not identifying, my lady. No, no. Good Lord. You see, I am watching that plant. And you are my student. Or rather, you are the student, I am the teacher. You are watching that. And your whole attention is on that. And I want to bring about the quality of attention in you. That is all I am concerned with, not mathematics for the moment. So, you are watching that, so I am also. I say, all right, let's both of us look. When we both look, what is the relationship between you and me? Neither of us are persuading each other to attend. Neither of us are saying, you must attend. Which means there is no pressure between us. What is that state of relationship in which there is no pressure, from you or from me?
44:24 Q: I don't know. Affection?
44:28 K: Don't guess.
44:32 Q: Can you put it into words?
44:35 K: I will put it into words.
44:40 Q: Is that not the way of freedom, beginning to look without the...
44:44 K: I have looked. There is no resistance between us. We are both looking at that. You see, you are not actually doing it, that is the trouble. It has become an idea.
45:02 Q: It is not spontaneous.
45:04 K: And the idea is what is separating us. You have no idea, I have no idea, I am just looking at that beastly little thing. All right. When a man and a woman have no resistance to each other, are not under pressure of any kind with each other, what is their relationship?
45:37 Q: Love.
45:40 K: Guesswork! Nom de chien! Apparently you don't know it. That is all.
46:00 Q: There is no division. Are you saying there is no division, there is no separation?
46:06 K: What takes place?
46:09 Q: I can't really put it in words.
46:11 K: Watch it, sir.
46:16 Q: Unity?
46:20 K: You are guessing.

Q: I know.
46:25 K: Look, there is the Arab and the Jew, fighting each other. The Arab says, I must drive you out of your country, that is my country. And the Israeli says, no I am staying. So, divided. So, when there is division there is conflict. That is a law. When I am divided with my wife, we will fight inevitably – or with my girl. So, when there is no division of any kind of a pressure, what takes place?
47:19 Q: There is no sense of you and I.
47:22 K: No, sir, what is the relationship between us? I refuse to accept all your guesswork. Well, lady? Maria, please. Will you do it?
47:57 Q: Without conflict there is peace.
48:01 K: Without conflict.

Q: There is peace.
48:04 K: No, don't give it a name yet. When you exist without conflict, which means no pressure from you and no pressure from me with each other, therefore no conflict, what is our relationship? Actually, not say it is harmony, it is love, it is peace, it is this.
48:28 Q: No relationship?
48:31 K: No relationship as we know it. Certainly. Right? The relationship as we know it, is between my image which I have created about you and the image that you have created about me, which are the result of pressure. So if there is no pressure, what is my relationship? For God's sake, what is the matter? Which means, as an educator or a parent or a man and a woman, or a woman and a man, you have never gone into this question of being without any pressure and finding out what that relationship is when there is no division. All that we know is division. You are a woman, I am a man, I put pressure on you, sexually, in umpteen ways, and you put pressure on me. And this is what we call relationship, as it is understood. Which is no relationship at all. It is like the Israelis and the Arabs meeting in Geneva, which may take place or may not take place. So, how shall we, as educators, bring about a relationship between the student and yourself in which there is no pressure whatsoever?
50:21 Q: Sir, I wonder if it is not better to inquire into what takes place when there is pressure?
50:33 K: Oh yes, that is very simple. What takes place when you put pressure on me? What takes place?
50:42 Q: Distortion.

K: I resist you.
50:46 Q: And there is pain.

K: Of course. I resist you. Because I don't like your pressure but I like that pressure.
50:54 Q: Oh, I see.
50:58 K: No, wait, listen to it carefully. I don't like your pressure but I like that lady's pressure. So I resist you and I welcome her. But we are talking about pressure, not the pleasant pressure or the unpleasant pressure, just the whole nature of pressure. We are saying, when there is pressure of any kind, not the pleasant or the unpleasant, of any kind, there is distortion. That is a fact. Now, how will you in your relationship with the student be free of pressure? That you don't exercise pressure on him or her and he doesn't exercise pressure on you. You understand my question? How will you do it? You have to solve it, there is nobody to tell you. Probably no educator has gone into this question. Nobody has, so we are going to do it now. Otherwise, if the school is being built under pressure it will be like any other stupid school. But if we are working together to create, to bring about a relationship in which the student and the teacher are working together without the slightest shadow of pressure.
52:50 Q: Krishnaji, can I give an example here? Because it seems to me that a lot of the children, and maybe even adults – let me give you a concrete example: some children like to play music very loudly. Now, every time we go and say, we have already agreed at one time that we don't play it too loudly, you go and ask the children, please don't play this music too loudly. They feel you are pressuring them. Now, how do you explain to them?
53:19 K: I will show you. Why do you ask me? You are the people involved in it.
53:24 Q: You know, we are in trouble with this all the time.
53:29 K: What shall I do? I get irritated. Right?
53:35 Q: Yes I do.

K: Wait, look at it.
53:37 K: I say, what the hell is this? I get annoyed. So I calm down and I go and say, please, don't do it. He knows that you are annoyed but you are using a soft voice. So he has already resisted you. And he knows that he shouldn't be doing it, because you have agreed. So his reaction is to go against you, to protect – you follow? So how will you get over it?
54:24 Q: You sit down and talk about freedom.
54:30 K: We have both agreed to play this jazz or whatever is the modern music, quietly. You have talked it over with him, you made him see that the noise is really disturbing. It affects his brain too, this constant noise. So you go into it all, you explain it, with great patience and so on, and he sees it for the time being, and he forgets it. Because he is still young, he forgets it. So, how will you deal with it? Without your pressure, I said. Beat him up?
55:14 Q: I feel like it.

K: You would like to, but...
55:20 Q: You are probably going to deal with it many, many times. You are probably going to deal with that situation not just once.
55:27 K: A dozen times. So how will you do it, sir? You haven't had proper sleep, you haven't had – you as a teacher – worries and sex, etc., jealousy, all that is going on in you and he is playing loud music and you want to beat him up. And you calm down because you know it can't be done. So you are resisting, in yourself, and he is doing exactly the same thing as you are. So what shall we do?
56:09 Q: He feels that there is no affection coming from you, and your resistance.
56:15 K: Is that the state of relationship, when there is no pressure from you, or from affection? You are saying that? Guesswork or actual?
56:30 Q: It is actual, that if I tell him something without affection
56:34 Q: then he will...

K: No, not out of affection.
56:37 Q: Without affection.
56:39 K: No, sir, you are missing my point. Sir, I would like you to listen to me. I just ask you to listen to me. I am not exercising any pressure. I have got to tell you something lovely. And there is no pressure from me. You have all kinds of pressures inside you. You say, what the devil is he here for? What is he talking about? What does he want to tell me? Why should I...? That is all going on inside you. And so I say, please, I want to tell you something extraordinary. Will you please listen? Will you? Will you? No, you won't. That is just it. You won't and he won't, or she won't. Right?
57:57 Q: Why not?

K: Just see, sir.
57:59 K: You won't and the student won't. How will you listen? What will make you listen? What will make me listen when you want to tell me I am a stupid person?
58:23 Q: If I want to learn.
58:26 K: No, you want to tell me I am stupid, because I am a stick in the mud. I won't budge, I am a stuffed shirt, or whatever it is, and you want to tell me that. And I know you are going to tell me I am stuffed shirt. So what happens? I am already resisting. I won't listen to you. So what will make me listen to you? Tell me, actually do it, not theoretically – what will make me listen to you? Listen to you, not that you tell me I am a stupid ass. Listen to you.
59:29 Q: Then I would have to actually show you, tell you right now, not some idea.
59:36 Q: If I want to tell you...

K: No, I want you to listen.
59:43 K: That is all and nothing else.
59:45 Q: Well, you have to get my attention first.
59:46 K: Which means what? That you are not looking out of the window, that you are not worried about your wife and your children, about your girl or man. He wants to say, please let me listen. Will you do that? That is all, sir. You don't. And you expect that chap to listen to you. When you don't know how to listen and you are asking him to listen. When you are actually not listening, and you are helping him to listen. Right?
1:00:35 Q: You are showing us, Krishnaji, that we have pressure and the child also feels that pressure, therefore we must begin here.
1:00:43 K: No.
1:00:46 Q: Why not? If I am resisting and the child can see that I am resisting...
1:00:51 K: You discuss with him about pressure, not my pressure. He is under pressure and I am under pressure. So I say, look, old boy, we are both under pressure. Not I must begin here. So we are both under pressure, we have both lived under pressure, our society is under pressure, our society creates pressure, our parents, our whole culture, every damn thing is under pressure. Now, please listen to me – agree that you and I are under pressure. Agreed – that is obvious. Then the teacher says, please listen to me. Will you listen to him? Here you are. Will you listen to me?
1:01:49 Q: Yes.

K: Now you are not.
1:01:56 Q: Can you bring it about in another person?
1:01:59 K: I am going to show you. What will make you listen?
1:02:05 Q: Well, we don't seem to know.
1:02:08 K: What will make you pay attention to what I have to say?
1:02:16 Q: If we have affection first.
1:02:18 K: No, don't bring in 'if'.
1:02:20 Q: Well, we must have affection.
1:02:22 K: We haven't got it. I am a stranger. I have come yesterday.
1:02:28 Q: But we have read your books.
1:02:32 K: What will make you listen to what I have to say? Or put it round the other way: what will make me listen to you? You have something to tell me, pleasant or unpleasant – you have something to tell me. What will make me listen to you? Generally, what makes you listen to another is either reward or punishment. That is all we know. Reward is a pressure, punishment is a pressure. If I say, look, I will help you to be something or other, give you more money, more this or that, you will say, let me listen to you eagerly – a reward. And also if I say, I am going to punish you, I am also listening. Remove those two, if you can, then you will listen without the reward and punishment pressure. Can you?
1:04:00 Q: Sir, I would like to tell you how the children get my attention to them. I would like to tell you how the children get my attention to them.
1:04:14 K: Yes, by attracting, doing something or other.
1:04:16 Q: Yes. You know how they do it?
1:04:17 K: Oh, rather. I have watched them.
1:04:19 Q: By bugging me.

K: Yes, pulling you. By pushing me.
1:04:24 K: Yes, I have watched it all my life. They want to be the centre of your attention.
1:04:32 Q: But I think they are right.

K: No!
1:04:36 Q: They are pointing out something to me which I am not aware of.
1:04:44 K: Most children want your attention – right?
1:04:50 Q: They want to tell me something.
1:04:52 K: Yes, yes. Now, will you listen to the child?
1:05:01 Q: Perhaps not.

K: Why not?
1:05:04 Q: Because I am stupid.
1:05:06 K: No! You see!
1:05:11 Q: Yes, I am aware.

K: No, you are not stupid.
1:05:15 Q: Well, I am not aware.

K: No! Look, have you ever held a small baby in your arms, a child? And the child wants to tell you something. Don't you listen? That is all. Don't you?

Q: Yes.
1:05:35 K: Why? You are cuckoo! Why do you listen? Because you are curious, you are affectionate, you love that child. He wants to tell you lots of things about himself, what he saw, this and this, and you listen. You don't say, shut up! I have something else to do. Right? Will you do that? If you can do it with your child, why can't you do that with your student? Because the child is mine. I brought it out of my womb, it is mine. Your children, yes I will go and teach them.
1:06:33 Q: What about when the child is playing rock music...
1:06:36 K: No, I don't begin with rock music. I am trying to say: will you listen? Did you listen when he said that we are together, a small community, to build this school together? Did you listen? Did you listen? No. Now, that is just it. Then why are you sitting there?
1:07:24 Q: I don't know.
1:07:29 K: Look at it, that is exactly what is taking place with the students. You won't listen, he won't listen. That means you are really not interested in creating the school.
1:07:44 Q: I am not sure about that.
1:07:48 K: Ah, if you are sure then my God, I will listen. A man comes to you and tells you, I love you, you listen to him.
1:07:58 Q: No.

K: Oh, come on.
1:08:16 K: So, what is the relationship of the educator and the student when neither of them are pressurising each other?
1:08:30 Q: There is a togetherness there.
1:08:34 K: Which means what? Go into it, don't use words quickly yet, just look at it, look at the fact, that you are not under pressure and the student is not under pressure. If you say, I am under pressure as you are under pressure, both of us are under pressure, then what is the actual fact of this relationship, when we both recognise we are under pressure?
1:09:13 Q: When two people relate to each other...
1:09:15 K: What actually takes place – look at it carefully. Look at it carefully. You are under pressure and he is also under pressure. They both acknowledge they are under pressure and they both see to be under pressure is a great misery – put it for the time being, in those words – great misery. Both of them see this, verbally understand it. What is their actual relationship? Don't answer, look at it, go into it, watch it. There is interest in pressure, from you and from me. The inquiry is focused in the understanding of pressure and being free of it. Right? That is all. Because you acknowledge as well as I acknowledge to be under pressure is destructive. We both see the logic of it, the reason for it. And we both see the necessity, the urgency of being free of it. Then what has happened? Our attention, yours as well as mine, is focused on being free of pressure. So, we are both listening to each other about pressure. You are attentive about pressure and I am attentive about pressure. So we are both attentive. Right? Now, wait a minute. Then what is our relationship? You don't exist, I don't exist, only attention over pressure. You don't bring your opinion, I don't bring my opinion, we are both attentive about pressure. So, what takes place? Our concern then is together to understand and push away pressure. That means you and I say, let's see all the implications in it and wipe it out. So we are together in that. We won't quarrel, we don't offer opinions. Your opinion may be right. So I say, don't give opinions. I won't give opinions. Because your opinion is formed under pressure. Mine is also formed under pressure.
1:12:46 Q: That is what we are doing.

K: That is what we are doing.
1:12:49 K: So cut it out.
1:12:51 K: You understand what I am saying?

Q: I understand.
1:12:55 Q: But at what age, Krishnaji?
1:12:58 K: No, if we understand this then you can do it with anybody.
1:13:08 Q: That will take you two years, and you forget everything else.
1:13:11 K: No, sir. Look, he understood. Haven't you? You understood it precisely, clearly, that both of us are under pressure, both of us see the reasons of pressure, the destructive nature of pressure. Logically – it is not a vague idea – logically, reasonably, sanely, we see to be under pressure is the most destructive way of living. Right? You see that and I see it. And both of us say, we must be free of it. So, we are concerned about that. Not whether you grow long hair, short hair, beard, no beard – cut out all that. So both are concerned about that. Now, can we translate this to the student? Of course you can. Because first, you are unwilling to listen to me – it took nearly an hour, over an hour to make you listen to me – there was resistance, there was indifference, etc. It took such a time to listen to me. And we both see the same thing. Both see the same thing. You understand?
1:14:56 Q: I think I do.
1:14:58 K: We both see the danger of pressure. So we both see it. There is no differences of perception. The details we may go into later, but we both see the nature of pressure and its deforming character, and we say, we must be free of it. That is all. To see it together – you understand? That is all. Then we can discuss. But if you don't see it and we begin to discuss, you say, what the dickens are you talking about? Is this all Greek?
1:16:02 K: Why?
1:16:11 Q: It is a long question.
1:16:15 Q: It might be a long question.

K: It doesn't matter.
1:16:19 Q: So the thing is, what can he tell you that both of us are seeing?
1:16:31 K: Don't you see to function, to live under pressure is destructive?
1:16:37 Q: Yes.
1:16:39 K: Is that a verbal agreement?

Q: No.
1:16:42 K: It is an actual perception of the fact. Wait. Careful. I am using it carefully. It is an actual perception of the fact of pressure and its destructive nature. Actually: yes, I see that because I am under pressure and it is destructive. Right? You see, you are already not listening, you are off. We both said – the details we will discuss later, but the recognition of the fact: that it is carpet. We both recognise it as a carpet because we both have named it as a carpet. If we both say, well, that is the swimming pool, it is a swimming pool. So, both of us agree, logically, reasonably, sanely, that to be under pressure of any kind is destructive. It is not an idea, it is an observation of a fact. Right? So when we both observe a fact together, which is important? Go on, which is important? Seeing the fact. You are not important, I am not important – seeing the fact. Then we can discuss about the fact, or the fact will tell you the story, if I know how to listen to the fact. You understand? Either we tell to the fact what we think, or the fact tells us. Which is, I listen to the child. I don't tell the child, the baby, but the child tells me about itself. So, in the same way I listen to the fact. It will tell me. There is no disagreement between us. That is the first thing to establish.
1:19:34 Q: Krishnaji, are you saying then that our verbalisation nature allows us to become divisive?
1:19:43 K: Yes, which we have to go into, which is, language drives us. We don't use the language but the language uses us. Communism, a word, which is a language, you resist that, or you accept it. So, language is a tremendous pressure. I won't go into all that, it's too complicated for the moment.
1:20:19 Q: And opinions and ideas, also.
1:20:21 K: Yes, sir. Ideas are tremendous pressure.
1:20:27 Q: If we hang on to them.
1:20:30 K: So, will you – listen, sir, just two minutes, just a second – when you listen to the fact that to live under pressure is destructive – to the fact – do you make a conclusion of it, an abstraction of it, which becomes an idea? Or merely remain with the fact? You see the difference? If you make an abstraction of it and say that is an idea, and work for that idea, then you are away from the fact.
1:21:11 Q: And we do this.

K: You are doing this all the time,
1:21:13 K: because that is part of our culture.
1:21:16 Q: It is part of our pressure.
1:21:19 K: Are you getting bored with this?
1:21:21 Many: No.
1:21:27 K: So, without making an abstraction, which becomes an idea, can you listen to the fact – fact – that to live under pressure is most destructive? Which is a fact, which you see it in yourself. Then the question arises: can you be free of pressure? Is there possibility of being free of pressure? Right, madame? You have understood? Don't you want to be free of pressure? Or you like pleasant pressures and you want to get rid of the unpleasant pressures.
1:22:22 Q: It seems to me I am under pressure of something and I don't know why.
1:22:27 K: No, this is very simple. I like the pressure of my wife...
1:22:34 Q: Sir, it is more than that.
1:22:36 K: Wait. I am using the word pressure in being. She tells me, I love you. Do get me a car. And that is a pressure. I love you. Sleep with me tonight. That is a pressure. Don't shy up, this is what is happening, what life is. And she says, you are a brute, you are an ugly man. That is also a pressure. Right? So, what is my relationship to my wife when she is exercising pressure on me, and I am exercising pressure on her? Pleasant, unpleasant. Obviously, there is no relationship. I might say to her, I love you – just words. That is all I am trying to get at. So, I tell the student, look, you live under pressure and I live under pressure. Let's establish that fact. It is not an opinion. It is not a judgement. It is an actual fact in daily life. If I am the teacher, I say that is the first thing I want to establish with him. Don't say I won't be under pressure, you won't be – that means nothing. But when he sees and I see, through logic, through reason, through explanation, verbal, etc., examples – both of us see the fact. Right? Then what takes place? Let's watch my relationship with the student. My relationship with the student is based on facts, not my emotion and his emotion, my prejudice, my longing, my reward – on fact only. Children understand facts, not opinions. There you are, you have caught him already. Gosh, it takes me an hour to explain?
1:25:19 Now, let's go back to something, which is, are you – forgive me for asking this question – totally involved in building the school, in bringing about this kind of school? A school where there is no pressure at all. And perhaps out of that comes order. Right?
1:26:00 Q: For both the staff and the students.
1:26:11 K: Pressure creates disorder. If I have no pressure, as we were saying yesterday, putting everything in its right place, there is order. I won't go into it now. What time is it?
1:26:26 Q: Twelve thirty.
1:26:28 K: Phew! Isn't that enough? Now, can I, can we as teachers bring about this? The avoidance of reward and punishment. Both of them create fear. And fear becomes a tremendous pressure. So can we avoid those two? Knowing, factually, that any form of pressure is destructive. Factually. So reward, marks, etc., patting them on the back, you are doing jolly well, that is a pressure. Or punishment is a pressure. Can we work together, not you in your way and I in my way, together see, explain to the student the nature of pressure, the destructive nature, destructive quality of it, and say, let's work out together, to be totally free of it. My goodness, what a school this would be, if you did that. You would have free human beings, living in perfect order, wouldn't you? So, do we see the fact? Not I see it and you don't see it, or you say, well, I don't see the fact that way. You follow what I mean? Then we are off in our various crooked ways. But when we look at a fact, we look at it, it is a fact. I am a poor man, that is a fact.
1:28:47 Q: In theory.
1:28:50 K: I am a poor man.

Q: Well, I am too.
1:28:52 K: So, that is a fact. We start from there. It is very simple. But if I pretend to be very rich – it becomes silly. But we are pretending all the time. We are not facing facts. So when we face facts together, our relationship is entirely different. So if she doesn't see the fact, my job is to say, lady, let's spend some time looking at the fact. Let me tell you about it, till you see it. Not I persuade you to see it I say, look at it logically, reasonably. You say, sorry, I am not interested in your logic or anything, I don't want to know about pressure. That is all right too. But in a school of this kind we are working together to be free of pressures. A school that never existed in the world before. That gives you vitality, sirs – I don't know.
1:30:21 Q: It makes us pioneers.
1:30:28 K: Going to the West and fighting the poor Indians.