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NY71T1 - 私達の過去を認識する
第一回
ニューヨーク、アメリカ合衆国
1971年4月17日



0:34 Krishnamurti: Aren't the lights a bit too bright? I can't see you. クリシュナムルティ:照明が強すぎませんか 皆さんが見えません
1:01 I don't know quite where to begin, because we have so many problems, and the problems seem to be increasing and we human beings seem to be unable to find any kind of solution. We have tried so many methods, systems, philosophies, we have tried to follow spiritual leaders, political leaders, and we are always trying to find a formula, a way out of this utter chaos and misery. どこから始めるべきかわかりません 私達の問題は山積しており 増加しているようですから しかし人間はその解決策を 見出せないようです 様々な方法やシステム哲学を試してきました スピリチュアルや政治的指導者達に 追随してきました そして常にこの大混乱と悲劇の 逃げ道を見出そうとします
2:11 First of all, I'd like to point out if I may, that we are not offering any kind of philosophy, except philosophy means the love of truth, and truth is something that cannot be described, and what is described is not the thing that is. And this love of truth is not something far away to be grasped after periods of training, following some particular system or accepting any faith, belief, but rather to have the capacity to observe very clearly, without any distortion. Only then it is possible to see what actually is, and 'what is' is the truth, and to go beyond it. 最初に指摘致しますが 何かの哲学を提案ではありません 哲学とは真実の愛を指す事を除いてです 真実とは類型化する何かではなく 説明されている事というものでもありません そしてこの真実の愛は長い訓練や 特異なシステム信仰や信念を 受入れる事によって 得るものではなく むしろ非常に明確に何の歪みなく 観察する能力を持つ事です そこで初めて実際に何かを理解出来ます 何であるかが真実でそしてその先を超える為にです
3:45 And so, during these four talks, if one may, we are going to go into this question of observing, learning, and seeing actually what is, and see if our minds and our hearts can go beyond all the confusion and the misery and the travail which we have created for ourselves. この4回の話の中で この事を観察し学び 理解し 掘り下げて行きます 私達の心理と心が自ら作り出した 悲劇や苦労といった あらゆる混乱を超えられるかを見ていきます
4:31 Most of you, if I may say, come with certain anticipation, desiring to be stimulated or seeking inspiration, or wanting to follow a new method or system, or because the speaker comes from that far country, India, you have some romantic ideas and hope to find some sentimental solution to all our problems. And the speaker is not an Indian, except in carrying a passport. He has no philosophy, he's not doing any propaganda or making you accept or deny, agreeing or disagreeing. We are going together to examine what is actually going on both outwardly and inwardly. So we are going to share together. Sharing together is communication, and we make a lot of ado about communication. To share together any problem implies that we must be free to examine, free of any prejudice, free of our conditioning as an American, as a Catholic, as a Protestant, as a Hindu, as a politician or a businessman, as a scientist, what you will, free to observe together, share together, partake in the meaning and the significance of the thing together. That's what communication means, sharing. And so, when we are going to examine together, both your mind and the speaker's must be free to look, not to accept or deny but to observe very closely if one can, the whole issue, to observe without any distortion. 殆どの方はある期待や何か刺激や インスピレーションを求めここにお越しでしょう または何か新しい方法やシステムに追随したい もしくは話し手が遠くインドから来るからなどと ロマンチックな考えで 感傷的な問題解決策を見出そうと希望をお持ちでしょう 話し手はパスポートを持つ事以外 インド人ではありません 哲学を持ちません 何かのプロパガンダでもなく 皆さんに受入れや否定賛同反対させるのでもありません 内向また外向的に実際に 何が起きているのかを共に精査するのです つまり共有します 共有がコミュニケーションです コミュニケーションについて私達は騒ぎたてます 問題の共有とは 私達が精査する為に自由であるという意味です 偏見からの自由条件からの自由 アメリカ人やキリスト教プロテスタントやヒンドゥー教 政治家やビジネスマン科学者などと 共に自由な状態で共有します 物事の重要性と意義を 共に精査し共有するのです それがコミュニケーションの意味であり共有です ですから共に考え精査する場合 皆さんも話手の心も自由であるべきです 何かを甘受否定せず非常に入念に観察します 問題全体を何の歪みなく 観察するのです
7:26 And our minds are distorted, because we live our daily life in fragmentation, we are Catholics or businessmen or scientists or anthropologists, politicians, you know, divide, divide, divide, both outwardly and inwardly we are fragmented human beings. And we look at this whole problem of existence through one fragment, either intellectual or emotional or totally disregard and accept things as they are and carry on. And we hope somehow through time, through outward events, through political action, through organisation, that things will become normal, sane and healthy. But I am afraid they never will, neither through perfect organisation, however beautifully run bureaucratically, or any solutions that the scientists offer will not obviously solve our human problems. 私達の心は歪んでいます なぜなら日々を分断の中で生きるからです キリスト教徒だビジネスマンだ 科学者 人類学者だ政治家だと ご存知ですね 分断分裂です 内外共に我々は分断されています そして問題全体を一断片的な目を通して見ます 理性的や感情的にまたは完全に無視し それをそのまま受入れ続行します そして何らかの形で時間や外的な事柄 政治的行動組織的行動を通し 物事が通常に健全 好調になると望みます しかしそれは叶いません どれだけ完璧な組織でも どんなに見事に官僚的な組織運営でも または科学者らが提示する策も 明らかに人間の問題を解決しません
9:05 Whether you live in this country, Europe or India, or in Asia, as human beings our problems are common. Because they're common we can communicate. What is common can be communicated, shared together. Therefore one has to totally disregard all the images that one has built around the speaker, or your own particular image about yourself, so that we can both together observe, really understand, put our hearts into the solution of these many problems. この国でも欧州 インド アジアでも 人間として私達の問題は共通します なぜなら互いに共感できるからです 共通点は共感され共有されます ですから話し手について造られた 全てのイメージをまたは皆さんがもつ ご自身のイメージを破棄すべきです 共に観察し本当に理解し 多くの問題の解決策に私達の心を注ぎます
9:59 And so, from the beginning we should be very clear that we are not offering any kind of solution or telling you what you should do, because that emphasises authority. And where there is authority there must be fear, competitiveness, imitation and conformity, and all that denies examination. And we have to examine very closely and hesitantly the extraordinary problems that we have as human beings, not as scientists, not as a politician or a businessman or a labourer but as human beings. ですから最初から明確に致します 私達は何かの解決策の提供やすべき事を 伝えるのではありません 即ちそれは権威の強調ですから 権威が存在すると恐怖心 競争心模倣や服従が存在し それら全てが精査を否定します 私達は非常に入念にためらいがちに 人間として直面する大変な諸問題を精査するのです 科学者としてでなく政治家としてでなく ビジネスマンや労働者としてでもなく 人類としてです
11:14 Because we must bring about in ourselves, it seems to me, a total revolution in the very psyche, in the very structure of our being. And everybody is talking nowadays about outward revolution, physical revolution, gather all your energy to bring about a social revolution, always thinking in terms of outward changes, changes in the environment. 自分自身の中に精神そのもの 存在の構造自体の完全なる革命を もたらす必要があります 昨今皆さんは外的な変革について話します 身体的革命 エネルギーを全て集め社会的革命を起こす 常に外的な事について考えています 環境の変化
12:02 Madame, you'll have your turn when you come to ask questions at the end of the talk, so have some patience. すみません 最後に質疑がありますから お待ちください
12:21 Questioner: Please get up from the steps now. 質問者:階段から立ってください
12:29 K: May I go on? K: 進めて良いですか
12:31 Audience: Yes. 観衆: はい
12:36 Q: Please, you can't go on until they get up. Q: 立ってください先に進めません
12:44 K: What was that? K: 何ですか
12:53 Q: It's the usher, he won't let people sit on the floor. Q: 係員が観客をフロアに座らせません
13:04 K: You know, this is not an entertainment, spiritual or intellectual. This is a very serious thing that we're talking about. And if you are not serious, I don't see why you should be sitting there and I here. I don't mean serious long-face or all the peculiarities that are given to that word. Serious means what it means: to be earnest, to give one's attention, one's heart, one's capacity to find out for ourselves if there is a solution, a way out of all this madness, this violence, this brutality. K: いいですか これは娯楽でも スピリチュアルでも有識者でもない 非常に真剣な事を話しております 皆さんが真剣でなければ 皆さんと私がここにいる意味がありません 浮かない顔つきや その言葉のもつ特殊性を意味するのではなく 真剣とは本気でひたむきに 解決策があるかどうか 個々の注意を一心に向ける事です あらゆる狂気や暴力残虐行為からの出口です
14:06 Madame, écoutez. ご婦人 お聞きなさい
14:12 So as we were saying, we have human problems, and we are always talking about bringing an outward revolution to change the social structure either through violence or through peaceful means. The problem is much deeper than mere social, environmental change, either in ecology, economy, or in the social morality, because the social morality is immoral. So, we are concerned with our human problems, because what we are actually our society is. The society, the world is us, depending on our relationship, on our behaviour, on our fears and pleasures, on our despairs, and the desire for psychological security and dependence. So this world is us and we are the world. And to bring about a radical revolution in this world we have to change, not merely the environment. 私達は問題を抱えています この社会構造の変革の為に常に 外的な事を議論します 暴力または平和的手段を通してです 問題は単なる社会的環境的変化より更に深く 生態系や経済でもまた社会的道徳でも無く 社会的道徳は不道徳ですから 私達は人間の問題を懸念します なぜなら実に我々が我々の社会だからです 社会が 世界が私達です 我々の人間関係行動 私達の恐怖心歓喜や絶望 精神的な安全への欲望や依存 従って世界が私達であり私達がこの世界です 抜本的な変革をこの世界に起こすには 私達が変わるべきです 単に環境だけでなくです
16:05 And more and more books and philosophies and politicians, and I'm afraid also the scientists, are concerned with the changing of the world outside. And apparently very few are concerned with the radical inward revolution. Because if we don't change, if we are corrupt, what's the good of having a perfect social structure, we'll corrupt it. I think that's fairly obvious and logical. 本や哲学や政治家は更に溢れ 科学者も同様に 世界の外的な変化を懸念します 抜本的な内向的変革を懸念する人は 明らかに殆どいません 我々が変わらなければ私達が腐敗すれば 完璧な社会構造が何になりますか 私達が腐敗させます 非常に明確で理論的だと思います
16:53 And we are apt to forget this because we think, change the environment as the communists, others do, change the structure, political, economic, social, and the human being then will adjust himself to the structure, he'll become righteous, he'll become non-violent, he will live peacefully, all these experiments have been tried before, either forcefully or peacefully. But man apparently has remained what he is for millennia, greedy, envious, aggressive, brutal, self-centred, shedding every kind of misery in the world. 我々はこの事を忘れる傾向にあります なぜなら共産主義者達の様に 環境を変え構造を変えろ と考えます 政治的に経済的に社会的にと そして人間はその構造に自身を順応させます 道理的になり 非暴力となり 平和に生活するでしょう 強制的にも平和的にもあらゆる方法で 過去試されてきました しかし人間は明らかに何千年も以前としてそのままです 強欲 嫉妬 攻撃的残忍で自己中心的 あらゆる苦悩を垂れ流しています
18:07 So, the world, both the outer world and the inner world is what we are, we have made that. There is no division between you and the world, and the world and the me. I think that's a basic thing that one must understand radically, that there are not individuals and the community, a society, a world apart from us, we are the world. If you examine yourself you will see what you are is the result of your culture, of your environment which you have created, or your grandfathers, grandmothers have created it. You are the result of the past. And without changing the whole past, the whole structure of our past, we want to change the outward things, better bathrooms, go to the moon to play golf, or plant some ugly flag in the moon, and you think you are technologically tremendously advanced. Probably you are, but its not going to solve our misery, our conflicts, our extraordinary dullness of our minds, and the utter lack of love and compassion. If we could see the reality, not as a theory, not as a speculative thing to which we adjust, but the actual fact that we are the world, we are the result of the culture in which we live and that culture which we have created. ですから世界は 内的にも外的にも世界は私達で それを私達が造ってきたのです あなたと世界には世界と自分に 分断は在りません これが根本的にご理解すべき基礎だと思います 個々人ではなくコミュニティ 社会私達が世界です ご自身を精査するとお判りでしょう あなたはご自分の文化 自分の造った環境 または先祖の創って来た環境の結果です 皆さんは過去の結果です 過去全てを過去の全構造を 変える事無く 外的な事を変えたいといいます 良い浴室や月に行くゴルフをする 月に醜い国旗を立てるなど そしてあなた方は技術的に非常に 進んでいると考えます 多分そうでしょうが それは人間の惨劇や争いを解決しません 私達のとてつもなく鈍感な心 そして愛と慈悲の大きな欠如 この現実が見えれば 理論としてではなく 私達が順応する推論としてでなく 私達自身がこの世界であるという事実 私達が我々の生きている文化の結果で その文化は私達が創り上げてきた事実
20:29 We are the past. And to live differently, and we must live differently, with a totally different kind of mind and heart, we have to understand ourselves, not according to any philosopher or any psychologist, as actually what we are. And so one has to observe. So, if we could, not theoretically, not intellectually accept the fact that you are the world and the world is you, what you are actually. In your relationship with another you create the culture, you are utterly totally responsible for the wars, for the misery, for the social injustice, for everything that's going on about us, the chaos, the suffering. And apparently we don't want to face that, and that's going to be our difficulty. We have so cleverly and cunningly escaped from ourselves through religion, through philosophy, through entertainment, whether that entertainment be religious or football or whatever it is, we have a network of escapes, and we slip through them so quickly. And because we escape we have many frustrations. And in that frustration, which we almost worship, we produce every kind of literature, drama, art, and all that in no way solves our human, daily existence. And that's what we are concerned with, at least that's what the speaker is concerned with, not only to observe what is happening in ourselves but also bring about in ourselves, both in our minds, in the structure of our brain cells, and also in our heart, a radical, psychological revolution, for that is the only revolution, there is no other revolution. Mere physical revolution is so very primitive, it hurts, destroys people, in the name of bringing about a good society. You kill people in order to bring about a good society, the contradiction, the stupidity of it. And we accept it, either quietly or violently we accept this philosophy, that outwardly we must change first, and then we human beings like so many monkeys will conform to the pattern established by the intellectuals or the economists. 私達が過去です 違う生き方をするには違うように生きるべきです 全く異なる意識と心を持ち 私達自身を理解すべきです どんな哲学者や心理学者による理解ではなく 実に私達は何かを理解します それには観察が必要です 理論的にではく 知識的に事実を受入れず 皆さんが世界であり世界があなたである という事の理解です 他者との人間関係の中で文化を創ります あなた方は完全に 戦争や悲劇社会的不正 我々の周りにおこる全ての出来事 混沌や苦悩に責任があります しかし明らかにそれを直視したくありません それが私達の難題となるでしょう 非常に賢く狡賢く私達自身を宗教や 哲学を通し娯楽を通じ その娯楽が宗教であろうとサッカーであろうと 逃避してきました 私達は逃避の回路を持ち非常に迅速に滑り落ちます そして逃避する故に非常に多くの不満を持ちます その不満の中で多くが崇拝し あらゆる文学ドラマや芸術を生み出します それは決して人間の日々の存在の解決にはなりません そして私達が懸念する事は 少なくとも話し手の懸念は 私達自身の中に起きている事を観察するだけではなく 私達自身の意識と 心と脳細胞の構造の中に 心理的に 根本的な変革をもたらす事です それが唯一の変革であり他には存在しません 単なる物理的変革は非常に原始的です 良い社会をもたらす名目で 人々を傷つけ破壊します 良い社会をもたらす為人を殺すという 矛盾であり愚かさです そしてそれを受入れます 静観また暴力的に この哲学を受入れ まず外的に変わるべきと言い そして知識人や経済人によって 確立されたパターンに猿のように人間は 順応しはじめます
25:12 So I think from the beginning, if I may repeat that over again, one has to realise non-verbally, non-theoretically, actually see it, as you know for yourself when you're hungry, that you are the world and the world is you. Really if you see that, that's the most marvellous thing that can happen to a human being, because then you become totally utterly responsible, not only in your relationship but also in your relationship with nature, the destruction of nature, the killing of animals. ですから初めから 再度繰り返しになりますが 非言語的に非理論的に気付き 実際に見てください ご自身の空腹に気付くように あなたが世界であり世界があなたです 本当にそれを理解すれば それが人間に起こり得る最も素晴らしい事です するとあなたは強く責任感を持ちます 自分の人間関係だけに留まらず ご自身と自然との関係にもです 自然破壊や動物の殺傷
26:20 The other day, one saw on the television baby seals being killed and hearing their cries. And you are the Christian world, loving, kind, talking about peace and killing those poor things, and putting on their fur, or whatever you do with them. And this is the twentieth century and you're supposed to be civilised, intellectual. I leave it with you, all that. 先日テレビで アザラシの赤ちゃんが殺される場面を目にしました 鳴き声が聞こえます 皆さんのキリスト教では 愛 親切心 平和を語ります なのにか弱いものを殺し 毛皮を着たりなどします 今は 20 世紀です 文明的で知的のはずです 後は皆さんにお任せします
27:07 So when one realises actually what one is, and that realisation has to be observed, you cannot realise something which you have not carefully, closely examined. And to examine, as we were saying, there must be no distortion. And distortion will inevitably come into being when there is fragmentation, when one part of you, which is still a fragment, condones or condemns what you observe. When one part of you observes all the other fragments, and that part assumes the authority to correct the other fragments, that authority remains, or sustains the fragments. So there is contradiction between the one fragment that has assumed the authority of justification, condemnation, or explaining, rationalising. And as long as there is this fragmentation in us, and it does exist, not only at the conscious level but also deep down in the cave of our being, these fragments, fragmentation, which is not only the result of the culture in which we live, in the world of specialisations, but also in ourselves, deeply, we are fragmented human beings. And when one sees the reality that one is the world and the culture in which we live is the culture which we have created by our activity, by our action, by our thought, by our belief, by our nationalities and divisions of religion, when we see this then one has to learn how to observe. Because what we see is not static, it is not something that's fixed, a permanent, dead thing, it is a living thing. And we observe that living thing, which is you, with all the contradictions, confusion, guilt, misery, agony, suffering, it's all a living thing. And we observe that living thing with the eyes of the past. I don't know if you have not observed it yourself. Because we live in the past, we may talk about the eternal present or the now, because that's merely a speculative idea put forward by some clever intellectual person, but actually we live in the past, we are the past. That again is a fact. You are Christians, Hindus, you are the result of thousands of years of propaganda. 自身が何であるかに実際に気付く時 その気付きが注視されるべきです 注意深く精査する事なく 気付く事はありません 精査するには歪みが全く存在すべきではありません 断片的であれば認知の歪みは 必然的に起ります ご自身の一部が断片的であれば 観察する事柄を容認また非難します ご自身の一部が他の残りの断片を観察すると その部分が他の断片を修正する権限を持ち その権限は残るかまたは断片を維持します 従ってそこに 正当化や非難言い訳や合理化といった 権威をもつ分断間に 矛盾が存在します 私達の中にこの分断がある限り そしてその断片は意識的なレベルのみならず 私達の存在の深層にも存在しており これらの断片 分断は 私達の生きる文化の結果のみならず 特殊の分野も また私達自身にも存在し 我々は断片化された生き物です ご自身が世界であるというこの現実 そして我々の生きる文化は我々の活動や行動 思考信念また国籍や宗教の分断によって 私達が創って来た結果である事に気付けば これを理解し 観察する事を学ぶべきです 私達が目にする事は静止しません 固定される事ではありませんから 永遠の屍でなく生きる物です この生きる生物があなたです 矛盾や混乱 罪悪感 悲劇 苦闘 苦痛 全て生きています その生きている物を過去の目で観察します ご自身を顧みた事がおありか分かりませんが 私達は過去に生きますから 永遠の現在や今について語るでしょうが それはある聡明なインテリが 提案する単なる空論的思考ですから 私達は過去の中に生きます私達が過去です 再度それは事実です あなたはキリスト教 ヒンドゥー教 あなた方は過去の数千年のプロパガンダの結果です
31:25 Thank you, sir. That's a good idea. ありがとうございます それは良いアイディアです
31:50 As we were saying, we are the result of the propaganda, we are the result of what we have been told from childhood, to believe and not to believe. So we have to understand the past. The past, the present and the future is another fragmentation. And we project as the scientists are doing what the society is going to be in 2,000 years. Not 2,000 years, in 40 years, 50 years or 90 years, what it will be in the future. They have designed perfectly what the future is going to be, technologically. And you jolly well know the future is what you are now. And what you are now is the result of what you have been. And without understanding what you have been and bringing about a radical change in what you have been and what you are, time is not going to solve a thing. 私達はプロパガンダの結果であると 幼少期から信じろ信じるななどと 言われて来た事の結果です ですから過去を理解すべきです 過去現在未来はまた断片的です 二千年後に社会がどうなるかと 科学者達がするように私達は投影します 二千年ではなく40 50 90 年と 将来どうなるかとです 未来がどうなるか技術的には完璧に 描いてきました よくお判りの通りその未来は今の皆さんです 皆さんの今が皆さんの過去の結果です 皆さんが過去を理解せずして 皆さんの今と過去に 抜本的な変化を遂げるなどと 時間は解決致しません
33:19 And that is one of our great deceptions, that time, which is another fragmentation, will somehow through some miraculous action bring about a most extraordinary human being. それは偉大な策略の一つです 時間 それはまた断片であり 奇跡的な活動を経て 非常に類い稀な人類を生まれました
33:42 Outwardly, you may have a longer life, you may have a better sewage system, a cleaner city, air not polluted. You can scientifically produce all these things, and time is necessary for that, but is time necessary at all to bring about this immense change, a total revolution in ourselves? And we have to go into this question, and we're going to, whether time, thought, fragmentation, is ever going to change the human mind, the mind that has been conditioned, the brain cells that hold the past, the memory, the experience, and the knowledge of a thousand years. One has to understand all this, and to understand it one must be really dedicated to it. 外的にみて長生きするでしょう より良い下水道のシステムがあるでしょう 清潔な街並みや澄んだ空気 科学的にこれらを造る事ができます それには時間が必要です しかし私達自身の計り知れない完全なる 変化変革に時間は必要でしょうか この問題について話していきましょう 時間は思考断片は 人間の心を変えるのか 条件付いた心を 過去を持つ脳細胞記憶や経験 何千年もの間に及ぶ知識です これをご理解すべきです 理解するには一心に心を注いでください
35:23 It isn't a thing you understand of an afternoon when you have nothing better to do and come and sit here and hope to gather in your fist the whole winds of life. One has to give one's life, one's heart, one's whole being to understand this. Because it's your life, and if we don't understand that, any amount of your searching for nirvana, for ecstasy, for a righteous behaviour has no value whatsoever. 特にやる事のない暇なある昼間に ここに来て座り 拳を握り人生全ての望みを持ち 理解する事ではありません 人生を捧げてください 心をです この事を理解する為に全てを捧げてください あなたの人生ですから これを理解しなければ 極楽の境地や恍惚道理的行動を どれだけ探しても全く価値がありません
36:18 So that is one of the first questions, which is, whether the mind which is the result of the past, which is the result of a thousand years of time, evolution, confronted with an immense crisis, not only the crisis in the outer world but also crisis in our life, in our relationships, in our way of living, whether that crisis can be answered truly. Not in fragmentation, little by little, but totally, completely, so that we can live without any kind of conflict, without any kind of battle in our life, from the moment we're born until we die, a constant struggle, pain, fear, anxiety and despair. よってそれが最初の質問の一つです 質問とは心は 過去の結果であり 過去数千年の時間の進化の結果で 絶大な危機に直面し 外的世界の危機のみならず私達の生活の危機 人間関係において生き方において その危機は真に答えられるでしょうか 断片的でなく徐々にではなく 完全に徹底的にです 何の対立葛藤なく生きる事ができるようにです 人生において何の闘争もなく 生まれた瞬間から死を迎えるまでの間です 常に苦闘し苦しみ恐怖に怯え絶望します
37:44 So we have to examine, if you will, our minds which is thought, the capacity of intelligence. The intellect, which everyone apparently worships with such ardour, the intellect is the instrument of examination. The intellect, which is the accumulation of knowledge, of experience, of a thousand years of searching a way out of this misery and confusion, that intellect we think will solve, or have the capacity to examine and go beyond. Which is, the intellect is knowledge, used rightly or wrongly. The intellect is the capacity to criticise, to observe, to examine, to rationalise, either sanely or unhealthily, logically or illogically, that intellect is the capacity to observe objectively. But that intellect is only a part of the whole, isn't it? We don't live by the intellect only, we live by our feelings, by our love or pleasures, pains. So when the intellect, as the epitome of thought, takes charge of our life, it brings about great contradiction in our life. ですから精査すべきです 私達の心は 思考です 知性の能力です 知力 明らかに皆さん熱意を持ち崇拝します 知力は精査の機器です 知力 それは知識や経験何千年に及ぶ探求の 蓄積です この惨劇と混乱から抜け出すには 解決すると考える知性 または精査し先を超える能力を持つ事 その知力とは知識です 使用の正誤に関わらず 知力は批判や観察精査や合理化する 能力です適正 不適切であろと 理論的 非理論的であろうとです その知性が客観的に観察する能力です しかしその知力は全体のほんの一部です そうですよね 私達は知性だけで生きていません 感情で生きます 愛や喜び苦しみに生きます 知力が思考の縮図として 人生の舵をとる時 人生に大きな矛盾をもたらします
40:41 Our life is a total affair, that is, the psychosomatic responses, the responses of the heart, the mind, and the mind that is seeking something beyond itself, we are all that total human being, not just the intellect or the sentiment, or the denial of the intellect and only live in a kind of emotional sloppiness. 人生は大きな出来事です それは心因性の反応で 心の反応です 心理 心理が何かそれ以上を求めています 私達は人類です ただ知的や感傷的 知性の否認でなく 感情のずさんさのような中でのみ生きます
41:29 So, one has to understand this contradiction in ourselves, which is the contradiction of time, yesterday, today and tomorrow, the past, the present and the future, time as a means of solving our thousand problems, and the knowledge which man has accumulated for a thousand years, upon which he depends, which is the past. Now, that is our past, knowledge is the past, there is no knowledge in the present. Are we communicating with each other? ご自身の中でこの矛盾を理解すべきです それは時間の矛盾です 昨日 今日 明日 過去 現在そして未来 多くの問題の解決手段としての時間 数千年もの間蓄積してきた知識 過去でありその上に左右されます 今が私達の過去で知識は過去です 現在の中に知識は存在しません コミュニケーションが図れていますか?
42:39 A: Yes. A : はい
42:41 K: I'm not going to ask this over and over again, whether we are communicating with each other, I just want to do it once and then forget it. If you don't communicate with the speaker, and the speaker is not communicating in the sense sharing together the problems that we are talking, its up to you. The speaker will convey it as clearly, as logically, as sanely as possible, and if you are wanting to share that, you share it. And if you don't share it, it's just as well you don't. Because this is not a propaganda, and that's the beauty of it. There is nothing for you to be convinced about or believe in, or take home a new set of ideas. Ideas are the children of barren women. Yes sir, you laugh, but you live with ideas. To you, ideas are the greatest important things in life, ideas being not only words put together but ideas which are thought put together as an idea, as a formula, as a concept. Which is, look what you are doing, you are living in the past, your whole mind, your knowledge, your brain cells, your image, everything is the past and you live in the future, an ideal, a concept, a belief in something. So see how time, which is the past, has divided the past, the present and the future. And you are going towards the future all the time, trying to forget the past. But your roots, your being, your whole process of thinking are rooted in the past. And without understanding those deep roots, which is yourself, you're trying to create a marvellous society in the future. K : 何度も繰り返しお尋ねしません 互いにコミュニケーションがとれているのか 一度だけ確認したかったのです 話し手とコミュニケーションしなければ 話し手が皆さんと問題を共有する意味で 伝達していません皆さん次第です 話し手は可能な限り明確に理論的に 健全にお伝えします それを共有したければ共有し 共有しなければ共有しないのです これはプロパガンダではありませんから それが美しさです 納得したり信じたり新しい信念を持ち帰る事は 一切在りません 思想観念は不毛の収穫です あなたは笑いますがあなたは思想と生きています あなたにとって思想観念は人生に非常に重要な事です 言葉でまとめられたアイディアだけでなく 思考が造った型や概念として まとめられたものです それはご自分を見てください皆さん過去に生きています 皆さんの心 知識脳細胞 ご自身のイメージ 全てが過去であり未来の中に生きます 理想 概念何かの信念 時間は過去であり 過去現在未来を分断します そしてあなた方は常に過去を忘れようと 未来に向かっています しかし皆さんのルーツや あなたの思考の全ての過程は過去に根付いています この深い根底をつまりご自身を理解せずして 素晴らしい社会を将来創造しようと試みます
45:50 You know, the other day they were talking about what will happen, the explosion of technology, how technology is going to create a new society. It is going to create a new society, obviously, but we human beings are what we have been for the last ten thousand years, and if we don't change we're going to be in more contradiction, deeper agonies, and our relationship with each other becomes appalling. 先日科学技術の劇的進化がどうなるか 議論されていました 新しい技術がどう新しい社会を創造するか 明らかに新しい社会を造るでしょうが 我々人間は過去数千年もの間 同じままです 私達が変わらなければ更に矛盾の中で 更に深い苦痛 そして互いの人間関係は最悪となります
46:38 So, we are together going to look at this question, whether the mind, which has been conditioned through time, conditioned through experience, conditioned by the knowledge it has acquired through that experience, conditioned by religion to believe and not to believe, Catholic, Protestant, and the innumerable divisions in the Protestantism, the Hindu, the Muslim, all that nonsense that goes on in the world, a circus. We are conditioned by the past, by propaganda, we are the result of all that, is one aware of it? ですからこの問題に共に取り組みます 時間により経験を通して 条件づいた心 その経験を通して得た知識に条件づき 信じる宗教により条件づいた心 カトリックやプロテスタント プロテスタントの無数の宗派 ヒンドゥー教イスラム教 世界中の全てのナンセンスサーカスです 私達は過去によりプロパガンダにより条件づいています 私達はそれら全ての結果です お気づきですか
47:40 That's the first question: to be aware of our past, of our conditioning. The word awareness means something very simple, don't complicate it. Don't go to Burma or attend a monastery, spend the rest of your life studying what it means to be aware. Practice awareness, that's one of the jargons, a cliché that you have learned recently. Just to be aware, to be aware of the colour of that rose, to be aware of that man who brought the water, to be aware of your neighbour, of the colour, the proportions of the hall, to be aware of things happening around you, the squalor, the dirt, the poverty, the ugliness that man has created, the brutality of the things around you, to be aware, to be conscious. それが最初の質問です: 我々の条件付いた過去に気付く事です 気づきと言う言葉は非常に単純な事を意味します 複雑化しないでください ミャンマーの修道院に行かないで 気付くとは何かについて残りの人生学び過ごして下さい 気付きを実践して下さい それはありふれた陳腐な戯言です ただ気付くのです薔薇の色に気づきます 水を持って来たその男性に気付くのです お隣の方に気付くのです その色会場のバランス 自身の周りに起きている事に気付くのです 卑劣さ 汚さ 貧困 人間が造って来た醜さ 身の回りにある残忍な事 気付き意識するのです
49:11 Now begins the difficulty. You can be aware, that's fairly simple, to be aware of your environment as you walk down the street with the dirt, you know what is happening in New York City better than I do. To be aware. Now when you are aware, what takes place? Do please follow this, it's very simple, you can do it easily yourself. We are sharing this thing together, I am not your guru. You understand? I'm sharing, therefore we are walking the journey together. I am not leading you. Thank God you are not my followers, because you would destroy me and I would destroy you. There is no teacher, there is only you: the teacher and the disciple. So you become both the observer and the learner. So with one breath you put away all gurus, all following, all authority in the spiritual sense. Not the authority of the policeman, not the authority of law, because to change law, the law that exists, you must change yourself first. We want to change the outward laws, established by you, by your prejudice, by your greed, by your avarice, by your desire to seek security, and you want to change those laws without changing yourself. You want to have peace in the world, no wars, no more Vietnam, but you all have war in your heart and you're bound to create wars. ここで困難が始まります 気付く事はできます非常にシンプルです 環境に気付き 通りを歩くと汚れに気付く ニューヨークがどんな所か私より良くご存知でしょう 気付く事 気付いたら何が起きますか? 話について来てください 非常に単純ですからご自身で簡単にできます 皆さんと共有しています 私はあなたの教祖ではありません ご理解ください 共にこの旅路を歩き考えています 私は指導していません ありがたい事に私の信者ではありません その関係はお互いを破滅させます ここに指導者はいません あなたのみが指導者であり弟子です あなたが監視者であり学習者なのです ですから一息で全ての教祖をさて置き 全ての追随あらゆる権威を捨て置き 警察の権威ではなく 法の権威でなく 法律を変えるには存在する法を変えるには ご自身をまず変えるべきです 外的な法律を変えたいと あなたの作った あなたによる偏見欲 強欲 安定を求める欲求 ご自身を変えずして法律を変えたがります あなた方は世界平和を求め 戦争なき世界ノーモアベトナムと しかし皆さん心の中に闘争を持ち 戦争が起きるのは必至です
51:55 So, to be aware, not only of outward things, of the cloud, of the beauty of a tree and the swift flight of a bird, and the light on the water, to be aware of that is fairly easy because it doesn't touch you at all because it's something outside, far away. But to be aware of oneself, then begins our difficulty. When you are aware of yourself as you are, you say, I don't like that, that's ugly, that's beautiful, this I'll keep, that I won't keep, you're choosing, you're rationalising, you're condemning or justifying, comparing. In that state of comparison, justification, condemnation, your attention is distracted, you're not aware, you are aware of the image which you have brought over from the past, and through that image you're looking at the present, and therefore distorting. Is that clear? I'm sorry, I can't ask if you're clear, its up to you. 外的な事に気付くだけでなく 雲や 木の美しさ 鳥の俊敏な動き 水面の光 そういう事の認識は簡単です触れられませんから 何か外の遠くでの事ですから 自身に気付くとなると困難が始まります ご自身を自分だと認識すると それは嫌いだ醜い美しいなどと言います これは保管し それはしないなど あなたは選択し合理化し 非難や正当化し比較します その比較正当化や非難の状態の中で あなたは気を取られており気付いていません あなたは過去から持ち出した イメージに覚醒します その過去のイメージを通して現在を見ています 従って歪んでいます明確でしょうか すみませんお尋ねできません皆さん次第ですから
53:30 I'll repeat it once more in a different way. When you observe a tree or a bird or the light on a cloud, if you have really observed it, immediately you have words for it, you name it: that's a beautiful cloud. You want to write a poem about it, if you are inclined that way, you want to tell somebody. The verbalisation is a distraction because then you are not looking. The verbalisation is the image of the cloud which you have seen yesterday, and that image projects between you and the actual cloud. Therefore you're looking at that cloud through the screen of words, through the screen of knowledge, through the screen of yesterday's memories. So you are not actually totally aware of that thing. So in the same way, to observe what is going on inwardly, to be aware without any movement of choice. There comes our difficulty because when you observe through the image of the past, you're bringing about a division in your observation as the observer and the thing observed. I hope you are doing this as we are talking. That is, to share. Don't go home and think about it, then you are not doing it. You are doing it actually as you are listening. And that is to share, and that's the beauty of sharing, not take something home in your pocket and then talk about it. That is, to be aware, aware of what is actually going on within yourself, not according to anybody but to observe in this choiceless awareness what actually is. Which means the mind doesn't condemn, doesn't name it, merely observes. That is, I am aware that I'm violent, in all its various forms, sexually, in my speech, in my gesture, in my attitude towards life, violent, separative. And violence also, which is the result of my fear, I am aware of my violence. Now, when I am aware of it I say to myself, I am violent, or I'm jealous or I'm greedy. When you name it or look at it through the word, the word is the past. And so when you look at it through the eyes of the past, you are strengthening what you call violence, because you are relating what is actually taking place to the past, and the past is more or less the firm thing that we have. So, when we name violence, anger, we are strengthening the knowledge which we have acquired about anger. Therefore we are not looking at it anew, afresh, so you are looking at it with the eyes which have been distorted by the past. Shall I go on? もう一度別の言い方で繰り返します 木や鳥また雲の中の陽を観察する時に よく観察すると 直ちに言葉が浮かびますね 名前をつけますあれはきれいな雲だと それについて詩を書きたいその趣味があればですが 誰かに伝えたいと 言語化は気を散らします その間あなたは見ていませんから 言語化が雲のそのイメージです それは昨日見たもので そのイメージがあなたと実際の雲の間を反映します 即ち言葉という画面を通して雲を見ています 知識の画面を通して 昨日の記憶の画面を通してです 全くその事に気付いていません そして内向的に起きている事を同様に観察します 選択という動きが全くない気づきです 困難に直面すると 過去のイメージを通して観察する為 自身の中に分断が生じます 観察者と観察される側です この話の間皆さん観察していますか つまり共有です ご自宅に戻ってから考えるのでなく 聞きながら実際に観察します 共有ですそれが共有の美しさです 家に持ち帰って話をするのではなく つまり気付く事です ご自身の中で起きている事に実際に気付く事です 誰かによってではなく この選択無き気付き何が実際であるかを 観察するのです つまり心は非難せずそれに名前をつけません 単に観察します つまり自分は暴力的だと自覚します それは様々な形の暴力性です 性や言葉やジェスチャー 人生への自分の態度 暴力的で分離的です また暴力は自分の恐怖心の結果です 自分の暴力性に気付く それに気付いて 自分は暴力的だと言います 嫉妬深いまたは貪欲だと 名前を付けそれを通して世界をみます 世界は過去です 即ち過去を通して物事を見る際 あなたは所謂暴力を強化しています 実際に起きている事を過去に関連づけるからです 過去とは多少なり私達の持つ強固な物です よって暴力や怒りと名付けると 怒りについて得た知識を強化しているのです 従ってそれを新たに見てはいません 過去により歪んだ目で その出来事を見ているのです 続けますか
59:23 A: Yes. A: はい
59:30 K: So the past, as knowledge, is constantly interfering with the present. You have insulted me or praised me, that leaves a mark on the mind. That's the knowledge. And when I meet you, either you are my friend or you're my enemy, judged by the previous incidents happening. So I am always meeting life, this extraordinary movement of life, with the knowledge which is the past. Knowledge is the past. And yet knowledge is necessary. Otherwise you can't go home from here, otherwise you won't be able to recognise, if you want to, your husband or your wife. You won't be able to talk, read, you won't be able to work, technologically or otherwise. So you must have tremendous knowledge, and yet you see the danger, how this very knowledge divides as the observer and the observed. I'm sorry to constantly be changing words, I must, I can't go on repeating the old stuff. That is, we look at a tree, and in looking at that tree, there is the image, the botanical knowledge of that tree, and the like and the dislike of that tree, or the profit if you're a lumberman, there is the image of that tree. So the image is the dividing factor between you and the tree, which means there is a distance between you and the tree, spatial distance as well as time distance. Now, when there is no image, then you look at the tree in a totally different manner, then you are not identifying yourself with the tree, because you can't become a tree, that would be too absurd, but the spatial difference, the distance between you and the tree disappears and you see the tree as you have never seen the tree in your life before, the beauty of the leaf, the curve of the branch, the lightness, the shape, it becomes extraordinarily vital. K: 知識として過去は 常に現在を妨害します 侮辱された 褒められたと それは心に印をつけます それが知識です 敵か味方を問わずあなたに会う際 あなたは以前の出来事を元に判断します 私は常に人生に出会います この甚大な人生の動きです 過去である知識 知識は過去です しかし知識は必要です でなければ自宅に帰れません 認識が出来なくなります 自分の夫や妻が認識できません 話したり読んだり技術的にも色々な事で 機能しません ですから莫大な知識が必要です しかし危険を目にすると この知識が傍観者と される側に分離します 常に言葉を変えてすみません 古い同じ事を繰り返せませんから つまり 木を見ます 木を見るとイメージがあり 木についての植物学知識 その木を好む好まないと また木材業者なら利益を目算したり その木のイメージがあります そのイメージがあなたと木を別ける要因です それは木とあなたとの間に距離が在ると言う事です 空間的距離と時間的距離です ではイメージが無い場合 すると全く違う方法で木を見ます あなた自身を木で認識しません 木になれませんからそれは非常に馬鹿げています しかし空間的差異 あなたと木の距離は無くなります 木という物を人生で一度も見た事が ない様に見ます 葉の美しさ枝の曲線 軽さや形が非常に重要になります
1:03:18 Now, when you look at yourself, not only in the mirror when you comb your hair, but also when you look at yourself, you look at yourself with the knowledge which you have acquired about yourself. The image you have about yourself, I must be, I must not be, I should be, I should not be, I will be something different in the future, the whole movement of becoming is the outcome of knowledge. Out of that knowledge you have the image about yourself. And so when you look at yourself you are looking through the eyes of the image which is the past and therefore you are not actually looking. Now, to be aware without choice is to observe without the observer, which is the past, the image maker. Bene? Shall I go on? ではご自分を見ると 髪をすく際の鏡に映る自分を見るだけでなく 自分を見るときにご自身の持つ 自身についての知識を持って自分を見ます 自分についてのイメージです こう在るべき そう在るべきではない 将来は違う何かになるだろう この何かになるという動き これは知識の結果です その知識の中で自分のイメージを持ちます ですから自身を見る際に 自分の過去のイメージの目を通して見ています ですから実際には見ていません 選択なき認識は観察者なき観察です 観察者は過去で イメージを造ります いいですか 続けますか
1:04:51 A: Yes. A: はい
1:04:53 K: Please listen to this, because if you know how to listen you have done everything, you don't have to do a thing, you don't have to make an effort to listen, you don't have to make an effort to change. We'll go into that if we have time later, the necessity of change and whether it is possible and how it is to be done. K: お聞きください 聞き方をご存知ならあなたは全てを尽くしました 何もする必要はありません 聞く努力をする必要はありません 変える努力をする必要はありません それについて後ほど時間があれば話します 変える事の必要性それが可能なのか そしてどうするかです
1:05:31 But to listen. I don't think we ever listen because when we do listen we are thinking about something else. Or we say, I don't like what he's saying, or compare what he is saying to something else. Have you ever listened to your wife or your husband? Don't laugh, please, its a waste of time, don't do it. And its a waste of time to clap, waste of your energy, please don't do it. Clap if you must when I'm not here, much better. Have you ever listened, really listened? Which means the past is absent. That is, the past of the wife who has nagged, bullied, or the husband who has dominated, seeking power, etc., which we don't have to go into, this terrible thing called marriage in which all this thing goes on. And to listen without the past. Then you establish a relationship which is totally different. Then your relationship is not between two images, the image of the wife you have or the image which she has about you. The relationship is now between the two images and therefore it's no relationship at all. I don't know if you have gone into the question of relationship, because look what is happening in the world, you go to the office, with all the problems of the office, with your ambition, the insults that you bear from the boss, the fear, you are separated for I don't know how many hours from the wife or the girl, and the woman and the girl have their own problems, their own miseries, their own confusion, their own ambitions, their pettiness, their shoddiness and all the rest of it. And you come home and you go to bed with her and that's your relationship. You are isolated and she is isolated, and you hope to find some kind of relationship in sex, which you call unity - love my family. 聞く事 私達はちゃんと聴きません なぜなら私達は聞く時に別の事を考えています もしくは彼の言う事を好まないと または他の誰かとその人の言う事を比較します 奥さんや旦那さんの話を聞いた事がありますか? 笑わないでください時間の無駄です 拍手も時間の無駄でエネルギーの無駄です どうかやめて下さい どうしても拍手がしたければ私のいない時にどうぞ 聴いた事がありますか 本当に聴くのです 過去のない状態で聴く 小言を言ってきた妻の過去 支配的な夫の過去など その先は必要はありませんね この全てが続く結婚という惨事です そして過去なく聴く すると人間関係は完全に違う物となります ふたつのイメージ間の関係ではありません あなたが描く妻のイメージまた妻が持つあなたのイメージ 人間関係は二つのイメージの間で 従ってそれは人間関係ではありません 人間関係について問い考えた事がありますか 世界で起きている事を見ると オフィスに向かう 問題を抱えるオフィスです 野望を抱き 上司からの侮辱や恐怖に耐え 家族や恋人から 何時間も離れ その家族や恋人もまた自身の問題を抱えます 自身の悲しみや混乱 野心狭量 粗悪さあらゆる事柄です 家に戻ると 寝室に入りますそれがあなた方の関係です あなたも奥さんも孤立し 性生活を通しある種の関係を見出そうします 一つになると- 家族を愛する
1:09:00 Now all that has to be understood because to bring about a different society means a different relationship between human beings, between you and your wife and your neighbour. And if your relationship is based on the past, of your memories, of the insults, of the nagging, the past, the images you have about another, ugly or beautiful, or insane, irrational, distorted, then you have no relationship at all. And to be aware of all this, not just occasionally, but to be aware, so as not to form an image. I'll show you in a minute, I'll go into it. Having formed the image, how to be free of it, and not to form image. You understand my question? Andiamo. それは理解されるべきです 異なる社会を造るとは 人間同士異なる関係を持つ事です あなたと奥さんご近所との間にです 過去が人間関係の基盤であれば 記憶や侮辱小言 過去相手に持つイメージ 美醜 愚かさ非合理 歪曲と 人間関係は一切存在しません これに気付くには 時折でなく 気付くのです イメージからではなくです この後まもなくお話致します 造り上げたイメージの解放についてです 質問をご理解されていますか さあ参りましょう
1:10:33 Take a simple fact: you flatter me. That flattery is pleasing and that leaves a mark on the mind, on the brain cells, and an immediate image is formed that you are my friend, I like you, because you flattered me or scratched my back. And you insult me: that also has left a mark. And that has left an image and you are not my friend. This is the fact, isn't it, this actually takes place every minute of the day, I like you, I don't like you, you're beautiful, you're not, you're intelligent, this constant image forming. Now, when I am flattered, at that instant to be totally aware, neither accepting nor rejecting, just to watch it, watch what is happening to my reactions. When you so completely attentively watch, then there is no distortion, then there is no image forming. You do it now as I'm telling you, you will find out. It's very simple phenomenon, don't complicate it. To be attentive, to be aware at the moment of insult or flattery. At that moment there is no choice, therefore there is no image forming. Then you meet afresh each time a person. That is real innocence. That word innocence means a mind that is incapable of being hurt. Because most people have been hurt from childhood, by the mother or father, by the school, by the teacher, being hurt, hurt, hurt. And these hurts are various forms of knowledge. And we carry them until we die, carry them as memories, which is the past. And time isn't going to resolve them, time will only strengthen them, but whereas if you are aware of this whole movement of the past as image and knowledge, then your mind doesn't record any of the insults, any of the hurts. Therefore your relationship with another undergoes a radical revolution. Because we are related with each other, whether that person lives in Vietnam or in India or in Europe or here or in China, we are related to each other because we are human beings. And if we isolate ourselves with our images of hurts, pain, pleasures, fears, and the terrible competitive ambitious drive, which is so encouraged in this unfortunate country, then relationship becomes a torture, then your relationship is not the actual living beautiful moment but the past. So, one has to be aware of this total movement of the past, not only at the conscious level but also at the deeper levels. 単純な事実を例にします: あなたが私を褒めます 褒められると喜び それは心に印を残します脳内の細胞にです 即イメージが造られ あなたは自分の好きな友達だと あなたは私を褒めたのですから では私を侮辱したとします:それもまた印が残ります あなたが私の友達ではないとそうイメージを残します それが事実ですよね これは日々常に行われています 好き嫌いと美人だ美人ではない あなたは頭がいい等とです 常にイメージを造っています では褒められた際に その瞬間に完全に気付きます 受入れでも拒絶でもなく 起きている自分の反応をただ見るのです 完全に注意し全て注ぎ見ると そこに歪みは無くイメージを創造しません やってみてくださいわかるはずです 非常に単純な現象です複雑にしないでください 注意をはらい認識する 侮辱でも称賛でもその瞬間にです その瞬間には選択は存在しません ですからイメージはできません すると毎回新鮮に会います それが本当の無垢です 無垢とは傷つかない心を意味する言葉です 殆どの人が子供の頃から傷ついて来ています 両親や学校学校の先生などと 傷ついています その傷は様々な知識の貌です それを死ぬまで持ち続けます 記憶として過去を持ち続けます 時間は解決をしません 時間はそれを強化するだけです 一方この過去である全てのイメージと 知識の動作を認識すると あなたの心は侮辱を記録しません どんな心の傷もです 従って他者との人間関係は 根本的に変革します 私達は互いに関係していますから ベトナムに住む人であろうと インドやヨーロッパアメリカや中国 私達は関係しています私達はみな人類です 自分達を傷や苦痛恐れなどのイメージで 自身を隔離すると または非常に強い競争心 それは不運にもこの国では奨励されています すると人間関係は苦しみとなります あなたの人間関係は生きた美しい瞬間ではなく 過去だけとなります この過去の動きについて気付くべきです 意識的レベルだけでなく深いレベルにおいてもです
1:16:01 May I ask what time it is? 今何時でしょうか
1:16:04 Q: Ten minutes. Q: あと 10 分です
1:16:09 K: This is a very complicated problem, because we're living in the past, with the knowledge that we have acquired through centuries. And that very knowledge is destroying us, because that knowledge separates, divides, that knowledge divides the Muslim and the Hindu, the Christian and the rest of it, the Catholic and the Protestant, the division of nationalities, it's all based on the past. And to understand this enormous problem of the past, one has not only, as we have casually and rather briefly examined the knowledge on the surface, but also there is the deep, if one may use the word which is so common, unconscious, the knowledge that has been held down deeply within us, one also has to understand all that. Because one is aware knowledge is essential, absolutely essential, otherwise you can't do anything, but also one is aware that knowledge becomes a factor of distortion in relationship. And relationship is the most important thing in life, otherwise we can't live peacefully, otherwise we will not be able to know what love is. So, to be related, not between two images which are the past, but to be actually related means to have no centre in which the image forming exists. K: これは非常に複雑な問題です 私達は過去に 世紀に渡り得た知識と生きますから その知識が我々を破壊しています その知識が私達を分離し分断し その知識がイスラム教ヒンドゥー教 キリスト教 カトリックやプロテスタントなど 国家間を分断します 全て過去に基づいています この過去という甚大な問題を理解するには 知識の表面を 寧ろ簡潔に見るだけでなく 無意識の部分これは一般的に使う言葉ですが 私達のとても深い根底に留めてある 知識の全てについて 理解するべきです 知識が必須な事はわかっています 絶対的に必須ですさも無ければ何もできません しかしその知識が人間関係の 歪みの原因となる事もわかっています 人間関係は人生に最も重要です でなければ平和に暮らせません 愛が何かを知る事ができません よって相関する事とは ふたつの過去のイメージの間ではなく 本当に関係する事とはイメージが造られる中心が 存在しない事を意味します
1:18:52 Now I'm afraid it's too late to go into the question of how to observe the unconscious, how to expose the whole content of the unconscious, not analytically but expose it. One has to go into it very, very carefully. Perhaps we'll do it tomorrow afternoon but not now. So, we have a few minutes left, so if you would like to ask questions. どのように無意識を観察するかについて 話すには時間が足りません どう無意識の内容を明らかにするか 分析ではなく曝します 非常に注意深く進むべきです 今日ではなく明日午後に話ましょう 少し時間が残っています ご質問がおありでしょうか
1:19:30 Do you want to ask questions? 質問はありますか
1:19:34 Q: Yes. Q: はい
1:19:36 K: Now just a minute, before you ask me questions, I would like to say something about asking questions. First of all, why do you ask questions? Not that you must not ask questions, you must, every kind of question, doubt everything. But scepticism must be held on a leash, when to let it go, when to hold it back. And to ask a question, are you expecting the speaker to answer the question or are you asking the question yourselves so that together we answer it? Because the very moment you put the question, the answer is in the question. And if we know how to look at that question, the answer is there. So we have to bear in mind when you ask questions that you must not only ask the right question, which doesn't mean the speaker is preventing you from asking questions, also in asking the right question, there is depth behind that question, because the right question has immense depth. And the shallow question is the wrong question, because it is very superficial. So one has to be aware when you ask a question. And in asking questions you are exposing yourself to yourself. If that is understood, please fire away. K: 質問の前に少しお待ちください 質問についてお伝えした事があります まずなぜ質問するのですか 質問すべきではないと言う事ではありません あらゆる疑問に疑念を抱くべきです しかし懐疑心は綱につけ うまくその手綱を操作し 質問をするとは 話し手が質問に答えると期待しています またはご自身に問うています 共に答えるのでしょうか ? それは質問がでるその瞬間 その答えは質問の中に在ります その質問の見方を知れば答えはそこにあります ですからご質問の際心に留めて下さい 正しい質問をするだけではなく 話し手が質問を妨げるという 意味ではありません 正しい質問をする 質問の裏には深層があります 正しい質問には甚大な深みがあります 浅はかな質問は間違った質問です 非常に表面的ですから ご質問の際にご認識下さい 質問をする際ご自身を自身に曝しています それがご理解できたらご質問をどうぞ
1:21:40 Q: Excuse me, sir. Should a man who does not truly love himself try to help others love themselves, or should anyone try to help anyone? Q: すみません 本当に自分を愛さない人は 他人が自分を愛せるように 手助けすべきでしょうか誰でも他人を助けるべきですか
1:21:54 K: Should anyone help another. I wonder what you mean by helping another. The doctor helps you, if he's a good doctor, a good dietician, the signpost says, tells you how to go to a certain place, they're all help, aren't they? But when you assume that you can help another, you've already taken a position, and therefore that position becomes authoritative and therefore you destroy all sense of humility. Helping is like the scent of a flower on the wayside, it is there, the perfume, the colour, the beauty, the quiet sense of its flowering, it is there, and if you want to smell it, smell it, if you don't, don't. And that is help. If you have something to give, give without knowing that you are giving. Right? K: 誰でも他人を手助けすべきか 手助けとはどういう意味でしょうか 医者はあなたを助けます 良い医者であればですが よい栄養士 行き順を書く道路標識 それら全て手助けですよね しかし他人を助けると想定すると すでに定位置を取っています よってその定位置は権威的で 従ってあなたは謙虚さの感覚を破壊します 手助けとは道ばたの花の香りのようです そこに在ります 香り色や甘美さ 開花する静かな感覚 そこに在ります香りたければ香り そうでなければそう それが手助けです 何かを与えたければ 与えていると知らないまま与えます ですよね
1:23:35 Q: Jiddu, we would like to ask you that, of course, you certainly consider yourself to be a very great man but what is your opinion of Buddha? Q: お聞きしたいのですがもちろんご自身を 偉大な人だとお考えでしょうが 仏陀についてどうお考えですか
1:23:50 K: You consider yourself a great man, of course, how do you consider the Buddha. The Buddha, who was a religious teacher in the 5th century B.C. in India. First, I don't consider myself at all, neither great or small, and I really mean it. And that is an irrelevant question. When you say what do you think about the Buddha, I don't think about the Buddha, because thought doesn't enter into the field of understanding. Thought doesn't exist where love is. When there is love and when there is that state of mind when there is no operation of thought, there is no comparison. K: 勿論私が偉大な人間だと 仏陀についてどう考えるか 仏陀は 紀元前５世紀インドの宗教の先生でした まず私は自分が偉大でも 小さいとも考えません 本当にそうです それは無意味な質問です 仏陀についてどう思うかと言うと 仏陀について考えません 思考は理解の分野に介入しません 愛が在る所に思考は存在しません そこに愛があればその心の状態があれば 思考の動作が無ければ そこに比較が在りません
1:25:19 Q: Could we talk about distractions? Q: 注意散漫についてお話ください
1:25:24 K: Could we talk about distraction. K: 注意の散漫
1:25:27 Q: Say that you're listening to someone and there's a sound, and the two sounds conflict. Now, you say there should be no choice, yet doesn't the mind, go toward... Q: 例えば誰かの話を聞いていて そこに音が鳴ると ふたつの音が対立します 選択は存在すべきでないと しかし心はどちらかに向かい...
1:25:47 K: Yes, I've understood your question. Distraction. Why do you call it distraction? You want to hear what he's saying, you listen for two minutes or a minute or a second, and your mind wanders off. Why do you call it a distraction? Why do you compare, say this I want to listen and that I don't want to listen? Now, by saying that it is a distraction you're already in a conflict, aren't you? Because I want to listen to you, what you're talking about, I give my attention for a few minutes to you. And my mind cannot sustain that attention and it goes off. I won't call it distraction. I say, all right, it's gone off, I want to find out why it is being pulled away in that direction. I'm interested not in a fixed attention but attention, whether the attention of listening to you or the attention that makes me wander away. I attend to what is called distraction, which is not a distraction. If there is attention there is no distraction. You've got it? It is only the mind that is not attending completely, such a mind wanders off. And then you say, after having been distracted, then you say, how am I to get back to attention? So there is a battle. So, be attentive to what is being said and to when the mind wanders off. The factor is be attentive, and then you don't have conflict. The greatest crime one can commit is to have conflict within oneself, because that conflict expresses itself in the world outside you, as hate, envy, bore, aggression, brutality, killing. And to find out a way of life in which there is no conflict whatsoever is to live a totally different kind of life. We'll go into that perhaps tomorrow. K: ご質問は分りました 気が散る どうして散漫と呼ぶのですか 彼の言う事を聞きたいと 数秒または１, ２分聞き 気が散ります なぜそれを散漫と呼びますか なぜ聞きたい事 聞きたくない事を比較しますか ではそれが散漫だと言う事によって あなたは既に葛藤しますよね 話を話しているか聞きたいから 数分自分の注意を払います そして自分の心は注意を継続できません それを散漫とは言わず途切れたと言います なぜその方向に途切れたのかを問いましょう 私は固定された注意ではなく注意そのものに興味があります あなたに耳を傾ける注意 または気持ちが散る注意です 散漫と呼ばれるその事は 散漫ではありません 注意があればそこに散漫は存在しません お判りですか 心が完全に注意を払ってないだけで そのような心は散漫です そして気が散ってしまい どう元にもどるかと言います そこにバトルがあります 言われている事と途切れる心に 注意を払ってください 注意を払う事がファクター すると対立はありません 人の最大の罪は自分の中に対立を持つ事です その対立自体が外の世界を表現するからです ヘイト 妬み 退屈 敵意残忍性 殺傷 対立も何もない 生き方を見出すには 全く異なる生き方をする事です それについては明日話しましょう
1:29:04 Q: Sir, I find myself very frightened all the time, like I try to face myself and I try to face what you're saying, try to live more fully, but I find that the past always interferes with me and I'm too frightened to look at myself and my life. Q: 常に何かに恐れています 自分を見つめ仰る事に直面しようとします 充実した生き方を送ろうと でも過去が常にそれを妨害し 怖すぎて自分と人生を見れません
1:29:25 K: I'm afraid I haven't understood the question. Has somebody understood it? Thought interferes, is that it? K: 恐れ入りますがご質問を理解できません どなたかお解りですか 思考が阻害する ?
1:29:34 Q: Fear makes thought. Q: 恐怖心が思考を生みます
1:29:36 K: Fear, thought and fear interferes. You know, these two things, like thought and fear, one has to go very, very deeply into it. We will tomorrow, shall we? Because it isn't a thing that you can just say well, get rid of thought or get rid of fear, that would be too stupid, but one has to understand this whole question of fear. One has to go into this, what is thought, why thought has become so extraordinarily important in life. And what is the place of thought. And that cannot be discussed or talked over in a few minutes now. May we then talk about it tomorrow? Is that all right? I think we'd better stop, don't you? Because I believe you wanted the hall by half-past seven. K: 恐れ 思考と恐怖心が阻害すると いいですか思考と恐怖心は 非常に深く追求すべきです 明日話しましょうか なぜなら単純にその思考を取り除く または恐怖心を取り除くと言う事ではありません それは非常に馬鹿げています 恐怖の問いの全容を理解すべきです この思考とは何か なぜ思考がこう人生に非常に重要なのかについて 問わなければなりません 思考の場所はどこか この数分で話ができる内容ではありません 明日話してもよろしいですか よろしいでしょうか 今日はこの辺りで終わりましょう 確か会場は7:30 まででしたね