Krishnamurti - Ukončenie neporiadku je ukončenie smrti

Krishnamurti Subtitles

SD72CES2 - Ukončenie neporiadku je ukončenie smrti
Dialóg 2
San Diego, Kalifornia, USA
17 Február 1972

0:03	Q: Krishnamurti in Dialogue with Father Eugene Schallert	Q: Krishnamurtiho rozhovor s Otcom Eugenom Schallertom
0:07	J. Krishnamurti was born in South India and educated in England. For the past 40 years he has been speaking in the United States, Europe, India, Australia and other parts of the world. From the outset of his life's work he repudiated all connections with organised religions and ideologies and said that his only concern was to set man absolutely, unconditionally free. He is the author of many books, among them The Awakening of Intelligence, The Urgency of Change, Freedom From the Known and The Flight of the Eagle. In dialogue with Krishnamurti is the Rev. Eugene J. Schallert of the Society of Jesuits, the Director of the Center for Sociological Research at the University of San Francisco where Father Schallert is an Associate Professor of Sociology.	J. Krishnamurti sa narodil v Južnej Indii a vzdelával sa v Anglicku. Za posledných 40 rokov rozpráva po USA, Európe, Indii, Austrálii a v iných èastiach sveta. Od samého poèiatku jeho celoživotného diela odmietal všetky spojenia s organizovanými náboženstvami a ideológiami a povedal, že jeho jedinou staros ou je úplne, bezpodmieneène oslobodi èloveka. Je autorom mnohých kníh, medzi inými ako: Zobudenie inteligencie, Naliehavos zmeny, Oslobodenie sa od poznaného a Let orla. V rozhovore s Krishnamurtim je Rev. Eugene J. Schallert Spoloènosti jezuitov, riadite¾ Centra pre sociologický výskum na Universite v San Franciscu kde je otec Schallert Docentom sociológie.
1:01	S: In order to achieve this seeing that we have been discussing, one must arrive at a state in which he is attentive and freely or choicelessly attentive to the other – perhaps we could use: he can give his undivided attention to the other.	S: Aby sme dosiahli to videnie o ktorom sme diskutovali, èlovek sa musí dosta do stavu v ktorom je pozorný a slobodne alebo bezvýhrade pozorný k druhému. Možno by sme mohli poveda , že môže venova svoju úplnú pozornos druhému.
1:25	K: Yes, yes.	K: Áno, áno.
1:26	S: And before we take the next step, could I say that we are really not looking for an answer to the question 'what is seeing?'. Are we not looking for seeing itself which is really not an answer?	S: A predtým, ako sa pohneme ïalej, mohol by som poveda , že v skutoènosti neh¾adáme odpoveï na otázku: "Èo je to videnie?" Neh¾adáme videnie v sebe, èo v skutoènosti nie je odpoveï.
1:41	K: Is there an answer, sir, when there is real perception – actually what is – is there an answer?	K: Existuje odpoveï, pane, kde je skutoèné vnímanie - skutoènosti toho èo je - je to odpoveï?
1:52	S: Perception is not an answer. I must insist with you that perception is not an answer.	S: Vnímanie nie je odpoveï. Musím trva na tom, že vnímanie nie je odpoveï.
1:59	K: But... there is perception of what is: what is in the world, what is in me – I am the world and the world is me. That perception, not a conceptual perception but actual perception, the world is me and I am the world. There's no division between me and the world. I am the world. There is perception. What takes place in that perception? That's what you're asking, sir?	K: Ale... existuje vnímanie toho, èo je: èo je vo svete, èo je vo mne. Ja som svet a svet som ja. To vímanie, nie nejaká koncepcia, ale skutoèné vnímanie, svet je ja a ja som svet. Neexistuje rozdelenie medzi mnou a svetom. Ja som svet. To je vnímanie. Èo sa deje keï vnímam? To je to, èo sa pýtate pane?
2:37	S: I'm asking, yes, what takes place in that perception. It's difficult for us to use a word because, in a sense for so long we have taken each other, our dualities, our world, as a given, taken it for granted, and because of this predisposition to take things for granted, I think we have, in a sense made it impossible or difficult for us to simply perceive. But once we can control this and say we are really interested in is the simple perception that precedes all rational, logical knowledge, all of our biases and prejudices, and from which these biases do not come. Then we are ready to ask… K: Or rather, wouldn't we put it there is no perception if there's a bias.	S: Pýtam sa, áno, èo sa deje v takom vnímaní? Je pre nás ažké používa slová pretože, v istom zmysle tak dlho sme brali seba, naše duality, náš svet, ako daný, berieme ho ako samozrejmos , a kvôli tejto predispozícii bra veci ako samozrejmos , myslím si, že je pre nás, v tomto zmysle nemožné alebo ažké jednoducho vníma . Ale akonáhle môžeme toto kontrolova a poveda , že sa naozaj zaujímame je jednoduché vnímanie, ktoré predchádza všetky racionálne, logické vedomosti, všetky naše sklony a predsudky, z ktorých tieto predsudky nevznikajú. Vtedy sme pripravení sa pýta ... K: Alebo by sme radšej povedali: vnímanie nie je tam, kde sú predsudky.
3:30	S: No perception if there's a bias. A bias is that which precisely makes perception impossible. It's when I do not want to perceive you...	S: Vnímanie neexistuje, ak máme predsudky. Predsudok je to, èo robí vnímanie nemožným. Je to vtedy, keï vás nechcem vníma ...
3:39	K: Of course, I build a barrier. S: I build a barrier.	K: Samozrejme, vybudoval som si bariéru. S: Vybudoval som si bariéru.
3:42	K: Whether the barrier of religion, barrier of politics, barrier of whatever it is.	K: Èi už je to bariéra náboženstva, bariéra politiky, bariéra hocièoho.
3:48	S: Now, if it is true that in the pursuit of seeing you… in the pursuit of the perception of you, what is needed within me is not me.	S: Teda ak je to pravda, že v snahe vidie vás... v snahe vníma vás, to èo je vo mne, nie som ja.
4:05	K: Yes, that's right.	K: Áno, to je pravda.
4:07	S: And what is needed within you is not you. Then when we speak of such things as perception, are we not in some way or another speaking of oneness or truth?	S: A èo je potrebné vo vás, nie ste vy. Potom, keï hovoríme o takých veciach, ako je vnímanie, nehovoríme nejako o jednote, alebo pravde?
4:18	K: I would not come to that yet. To me, it seems seeing the world is me and I am the world – or I am you and… I mean, seeing, psychologically, whether I'm a Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, we are the same – psychologically, inwardly, we are all in the state of confusion, battle, misery, sorrow, with appalling sense of loneliness, despair. That's the common ground of all humanity. There is that perception. Now, what takes place when there is that perception?	K: Ešte by som o tom nehovoril. Pre mòa to znamená že videnie sveta som ja a ja som svet - alebo som ja a ... Myslím, vidie , psychologicky, èi už som hinduista, budhista, kres an, sme rovnakí - psychologicky, vnútorne sme všetci v stave zmätku, bitvy, utrpenia, smútku, s desivým pocitom osamelosti, zúfalstva. Je to spoloèná èrta celého ¾udstva. To je to vnímanie. Teda, èo sa deje, keï je tu to vnímanie?
5:06	S: That is what we're trying to pursue and to explain – without explaining it.	S: To je to, èo sa snažíme sledova a vysvetli - bez vysvet¾ovania.
5:11	K: We're going to share together in this. There is perception of sorrow. Let's take that. My son, my brother, my father dies. What takes place, generally, is: I escape from it because I can't face this sense of tremendous danger of loneliness, of despair. So I escape – escape in ideology, in concepts, in a dozen ways. Now, to perceive the escape just to perceive, not check it, not control it, not say, 'I mustn't perceive', just to be aware, choicelessly again, aware that you're escaping. Then the escape stops. The momentum of escape is a wastage of energy. You've stopped that energy – not you have stopped – perception has ended the wastage, therefore you have more energy, there is more energy. Then, when there's no escape, you're faced with the fact of what is. That is: you have lost somebody! Death, loneliness, despair. That is exactly what is. There, again, a perception of what is.	K: Ideme to zdie¾a spoloène. Vnímame smútok. Zoberme si ten. Môj syn, môj brat, môj otec zomrie. Èo sa väèšinou deje, je: Chcem z toho uniknú , pretože nevládzem èeli tomu pocitu nesmierneho nebezpeèia samoty, alebo zúfalstva. Takže uniknem. K nejakej ideológii, konceptu, rôznymi spôsobmi. Teraz, aby som vnímal ten únik, len vnímal, nie kontroloval ho, nehovoril: "Nesmiem to vníma ", len si ho uvedomova , znova bezvýhradne, uvedomova si, že unikáte. Potom ten únik prestane. Pohyb úniku je strata energie. Zastavili ste tú energiu - nie že vy ste ju zastavili - vnímanie ukonèilo to mrhanie, preto máte viacej energie, je tam viac energie. Potom, keï neexistuje únik, èelíte faktu ktorý je. Èo je, že ste niekoho stratili. Smr , samota, zúfalstvo. To je to, èo je. Potom , znova, vnímanie toho, èo je.
7:04	S: I think I see the direction you are taking. What you want to say is that when I perceive that you are sorrowful – I don't perceive sorrow, it doesn't exist by itself – so when I perceive that you are sorrowful, what I perceive is that you have been separated, and this is a source of sorrow because now your father is dead and you are separated. And in perceiving that sorrow is associated with separation…	S: Myslím, že chápem smer, ktorým sa uberáte. To, èo chcete poveda je, že keï vidím, že ste smutný, - nevnímam boles , neexistuje sama o sebe - takže keï vidím, že ste smutný, èo vidím, je že ste sa oddelil, a to je zdrojom smútku pretože teraz je váš otec màtvy a ste od seba oddelený. A vnímanie toho smútku je spojené s oddelením ...
7:37	K: Not quite, sir. S: Or am I not perceiving that joy is associated with…	K: Nie celkom tak, pane. S: Alebo nevnímam tú rados spojenú s...
7:42	K: No, sir, not yet, no. The fact is I have lost somebody. That's a fact – burned, gone. And it is something gone finally! You can't... And I feel tremendously lonely – that's a fact – lonely, without any sense of relationship without a sense of any security. I'm completely at the end.	K: Nie pane, ešte nie, nie. Faktom je, že som niekoho stratil. To je fakt - spálený, preè. A je to nieèo, èo je preè naveky! A cítim sa nesmierne sám - to je fakt - sám, bez nejakého pocitu vz ahu, bez pocitu bezpeèia. Som úplne v koncoch.
8:18	S: Many people speak of this as saying, 'I am empty now.'	S: Mnohí ¾udia hovoria o tom a vravia: Teraz som úplne prázdny.
8:24	K: Yes, empty. And there is an awareness of this emptiness of this loneliness, of this despair. I say when you don't escape you conserve the energy. Now there is this conservation of energy when I'm facing the fear of my loneliness. I meet it. You're aware of it. There is an awareness of this fear of loneliness.	K: Áno, prázdny. A je tam uvedomovanie si tejto prázdnoty tejto samoty, tohto zúfalstva. A ja hovorím, že keï neuteèiete, držíte si energiu. Teraz je tam zachovanie energie, keï èelím strachu zo samoty. Chápem. Uvedomujete si to. Je tam uvedomovanie si tohto strachu zo samoty.
9:01	S: But now, how can you give your undivided attention to someone whom you have lost, simply and finally?	S: Ale, ako môžete venova vašu plnú pozornos niekomu, koho ste stratili, jednoducho a naveky?
9:13	K: I've lost him finally, but now we're examining the state of the mind that has lost.	K: Stratil som ho naveky, ale teraz skúmame stav mysle, ktorá utrpela stratu.
9:22	S: Yes, we're trying to understand…	S: Áno, snažíme sa porozumie ...
9:25	K: …the mind that says, 'I've lost everything. I'm really in desperate sorrow.' Right? And there is fear. See that fear, don't run away, don't escape, don't try to smother it by courage and all the rest of it – see that fear be choicelessly aware of that fear. In that awareness fear disappears. It does disappear! Then you have now greater energy.	K:...myse¾, ktorá hovorí: Stratil som všetko! Som naozaj zúfalo smutný. " Práve! A to je strach. Pozrite sa na strach, neutekajte od neho, neunikajte, nesnažte sa ho potlaèi , pozbierajte všetku odvahu a pozrite sa na strach. Bezvýhradne si ten strach uvedomujte. V tom uvedomovaní strach zmizne. Naozaj zmizne! Potom, teraz máte viac energie.
10:03	S: Yes, and we have all experienced that, how seeing fear disarms fear.	S: Áno, všetci sme zažili, že vidie strach odzbrojuje strach.
10:10	K: Next, what is there? Why is there sorrow? What is sorrow? Self-pity?	K: Ïalej, èo sa tam deje? Preèo je tam smútok? Èo je to smútok? Seba¾utovanie?
10:20	S: When it's associated with anxiety or fear then we will have to call it self-pity.	S: Keï sa spojí s úzkos ou alebo strachom, potom to budeme musie nazva seba¾útos .
10:26	K: Self-pity. What does that mean, self-pity? You see that means: me is more important than the person who is dead.	K: Seba¾útos . Èo seba¾útos znamená? Vidíte, znamená to: Ja som dôležitejší, ako osoba, ktorá zomrela.
10:35	S: And so you didn't give your undivided attention to that person.	S: A tak nevenovali svoju plnú pozornos tejto osobe.
10:38	K: I never loved that man! My child, I never loved that child. I never loved my wife or husband, sister. In this state of awareness there is the discovery that love never existed.	K: Nikdy som nemilovala toho muža! Moje die a, nikdy som nemiloval to die a. Nikdy som nemiloval moju ženu, alebo muža, sestru. V tomto stave uvedomovania si je objav, že láska nikdy neexistovala.
10:59	S: Or, in the discovery of of a sorrow which is associated with grief or with separation or with fear, there is the discovery that love has been horribly limited, if it existed at all.	S: Alebo v objave smútku, ktorý som spojil so žia¾om alebo oddelením alebo strachom, je aj objav že láska je hrozne obmedzená, ak vôbec nejaká existovala.
11:14	K: I didn't have it! I couldn't have it! Love means something entirely different. So, now there is tremendous energy – you follow, sir? – no escape, no fear, no sense of self-pity, concern about myself, my anxiety... Out of this sense of sorrow there is this bubbling energy which is really love.	K: Nemal som ju! Nemohol som ju ma ! Láska znamená nieèo úplne iné. Tak, teraz tu panuje obrovská energia - sledujete, pane? - žiadny únik, žiadny strach, žiadna seba¾útos , strach o seba, moja úzkos ... Z tohto pocitu smútku je táto bublajúca energia èo je naozaj láska.
11:48	S: Which is really love. So now we have discovered that when one gives his undivided attention to another…	S: Èo je ozajstná láska. Takže teraz sme zistili, že keï èlovek venuje pozornos druhému...
11:56	K: No! I have not given my attention to the person who is dead, my father, my son, my brother. There has been attention to the state of my mind the mind which says, 'I suffer' !	K: Nie! Nie, nevenoval som pozornos osobe ktorá je màtva. môjmu otcovi, synovi, bratovi. Bola to pozornos venovaná stavu mojej mysle, mysle ktorá vraví: Trpím!
12:12	S: Yes, but we have been trying to examine what 'I suffer' means in the context of what choiceless attention means.	S: Áno, ale my sa pokúšame zisti , èo znamená "utrpenie" v kontexte s tým, èo to znamená "bezvýhradná pozornos ".
12:22	K: Yes. So I find love is... a total attention.	K: Áno. Takže zis ujem, že láska znamená...bezvýhradnú pozornos .
12:32	S: Love is a total attention.	S: Láska je úplná pozornos .
12:34	K: Without any division. I think this is really important because you see, sir, for us, love is pleasure – sexual, other ways – love is pleasure, and love is fear, love is jealousy, love is possessiveness, domination, aggression – you follow? We use that word to cover up all this: love of God, love of man, love of country, and so on. All that is the love of my concern about myself.	K: Bez akéhoko¾vek rozdelenia. Myslím si, že toto je naozaj dôležité, pretože vidíte, pane, pre nás je láska potešenie - sexuálne, iné - láska je potešenie, a láska je strach, láska je žiarlivos , láska je vlastníctvo, nadvláda, agresia - sledujete? Používame toto slovo, na toto všetko: láska k Bohu, láska k mužovi, láska k zemi, atï. To všetko je láska mojich obáv o mòa samého.
13:14	S: Yes, all of that is self-love. K: Obviously.	S: Áno, to všetko je sebeláska. K. Oèividne.
13:16	S: But it's the me that is being loved not the self that is being loved.	S: Ale to som ja, ktorý je milovaný nie moje "ja", ktoré je milované.
13:20	K: That's no love. That's a tremendous discovery. That requires great honesty to say, 'By Jove, I've never really loved anybody.' I pretended, I've exploited, I have adjusted myself to somebody but the fact that I've never known what it means to love. That's a tremendous honesty, sir, to say that I thought I loved and I never found it. Now I've come upon something which is real! Which is, I've watched what is and moved from there. There is an awareness of what is and that awareness moves – it is a living thing – it doesn't come to a conclusion.	K: To nie je láska. To je ohromný objav. Vyžaduje to ve¾kú úprimnos poveda : "Jove, nikdy som nikoho nemilovala. " Predstierala som, zneužívala som, prispôsobila som sa niekomu, ale faktom je, že som nikdy nepoznala, èo je to láska. To je nesmierna poctivos , pane, poveda , že som si myslel, že milujem, a nikdy som to nenašiel. Teraz sa dostávam k nieèomu, èo je skutoèné! Èo je: Pozoroval som to èo je, a pohol som sa ïalej. Je v tom vedomie toho èo je, a to vedomie sa pohybuje - je to žijúca vec - nekonèí to.
14:17	S: Now why is it that in our attempt to pursue the question of undivided attention, or choiceless attention, or simple seeing that we very naturally slipped into the question and it's not really logical, it's very naturally slipped into the question of simple loving, as opposed to fictitious or fraudulent loving or conditioned loving. There must be something about the loving and the seeing process which is so similar that we can slip from seeing to loving and really be discussing the same thing. And as we move well, move is not a good word K: No, I understand, sir.	S: A preèo je to tak, že v našej snahe skúma túto otázku sústredenú pozornos , alebo pozornos bez výberu, alebo jednoducho vidie že sme ve¾mi jednoducho vk¾zli do otázky a naozaj to nie je logické, je to ve¾mi prirodzené, skåzli do otázky jednoducho milova , naproti fiktívnej alebo podvodnej láske alebo podmienenej láske. Musí by nieèo na tom procese milova a vidie ktorý je taký podobný, že môžeme skåznu od videnia k láske a v skutoènosti diskutova o tej istej veci. A keï ideme dobrým smerom, pohyb nie je to správe slovo. K: Nie, rozumiem pane.
15:09	S: as we become aware of… as we develop this undivided attention, this choiceless awareness…	S: Ako si uvedomujeme... ako vyvýjame túto bezhraniènú pozornos , túto vo¾bu bez výberu...
15:17	K: If I may suggest, don't use the word – I humbly suggest – 'develop'. That means time. Sir, be aware!	K: Ak môžem navrhnú , nepoužívajte slovo - skromne navrhujem - "vyvíjame". To znamená èas. Pane, "uvedomujeme si!"
15:27	S: Be aware. We are struggling with words, because…	S: Uvedomujeme si. Bojujeme so slovami, pretože ...
15:30	K: Be aware of the carpet – the colour, the shape, the form, be aware of that. Don't say, 'I like, don't like, this is good' just be aware of it, and then, from that, grows the flame of awareness, if one can so call it.	K: Uvedomujete si koberec, farbu, tvar, formu, uvedomujete si to. Nehovorte: Páèi sa mi, nepáèi sa mi, to je dobré! Len si to uvedomujte, a potom, z toho, vzniká plameò uvedomovania si, ak to tak môžem poveda .
15:51	S: Haven't you said the same thing in different words by saying, 'Be aware of the other, of the carpet, of the tree, of the universe within which you live?' And then you translate into another level of perception and you say, 'Love the carpet, love the tree, love the universe.' And you don't feel that there's a difference between being aware or seeing undividedly and loving undividedly or unconditionally.	S: Nehovorili ste to isté, inými slovami, keï ste hovorili: "Vnímajte druhých, koberec, strom, vesmír, v ktorom žijete?" A potom to prenesiete do iného levelu vnímania a hovoríte: Milujte koberec, milujte strom, milujte vesmír. A necítite že je rozdiel medzi tým, keï vnímate alebo vidíte a keï milujete bez rozdielu, nepodmienene?
16:23	K: No, sir, when you are so aware, there is that quality of love. You don't have to say 'be or not be' – it is there. It is like a perfume in a flower – it is there!	K: Nie, pane, keï si uvedomujete, tam je taká kvalita lásky. Nepotrebujete hovori by , èi neby - je to tam! Ja to ako vôòa kvetu - je tam!
16:33	S: The two are… they're not different sides of the same coin. They're the same coin. K: It is the same thing, same coin.	S: Tie dve sú...neexistujú dve strany jednej mince. Je to tá istá minca. K: Je to tá istá vec. Tá istá minca.
16:39	S: With no sides at all. Yes. So that then to see in this undivided way, choiceless way, and to love in this choiceless way must be one and the same thing.	S: Bez akýchko¾vek strán. Áno. Takže potom vidíte týmto nedelite¾ným spôsobom, spôsobom bez výberu, a milova týmto spôsobom bez výberu musí by jedna a tá istá vec.
16:52	K: It is, sir, but the difficulty is we are so eager to get this thing that we lose the real thread of it, the beauty of it.	K: Je pane, ale problémom je, že tak túžime po tejto veci, že strácame pravú ni , jej krásu.
17:06	S: Now suppose that we were to move our discussion one more step or maybe another step because there's not more, and say that as far as we can perceive, to be aware and to love are one and the same thing. Could we move one step further and say to be is the same as to see and to love?	S: Predstavme si, že posunieme našu diskusiu ešte o jeden krok, alebo možno o ïalší krok, pretože viac ich nie je, a povedzme, že pokia¾ vnímame, uvedomujeme si a milujeme to je jedna a tá istá vec. Mohli by sme sa pohnú o krok a poveda , existova je to isté ako vidie a milova ?
17:33	K: No, what do you mean by, if I may ask, the word 'to be'? Everybody says, 'I am.' The whole young generation at present says 'I want to be'. What does that mean?	K: Nie! Èo myslíte tým, ak sa smiem pýta , slovom "by "? Každý hovorí: "Ja som." Celá mladá generácia v súèasnosti hovorí 'Chcem by '. Èo to znamená?
17:46	S: I'm sure it means very little. I think it means be active or be possessive.	S: Som si istý, že to znamená ve¾mi málo. Myslím si, že to znamená by aktívny alebo by vlastnícky.
17:52	K: Yes, be possessive, be angry, be violent. I am – that is what I am.	K: Áno. By vlastnícky, zlostný, by násilný. Som - to je to, èo som.
17:56	S: So then the word 'to be' has a connotation about it, associated with activity, which can only follow from this inner energy which is what to be means.	S: Takže slovo "by "má nejakú spojitos , spája sa s aktivitou, ktorá môže vznika z tejto energie èo slovo "by ", znamená.
18:05	K: So, sir, all this brings us to a question: whether man can change at all. That is the fundamental… It seems to me that's one of the major questions in the present world. The structure and the nature of human beings have to change.	K: Takže pane, toto všetko nás vedie k otázke: èi sa èlovek vôbec môže zmeni ? To je podstatné... Zdá sa mi, že je to jedna z najpodstatnejších otázok v súèasnom svete. Štruktúra a povaha ¾udských bytostí sa musí zmeni .
18:30	S: Well, when you use words like 'structure' and 'nature' those mean categories to me. K: No, the way he lives.	S: Teda, keï používate slová ako "štruktúra" a "povaha" pre mòa to znamená kategórie. K: Nie, spôsob akým žije.
18:37	S: Can man's lifestyle change?	S: Dá sa zmeni životný štýl èloveka?
18:39	K: Yes. The way he lives, the appalling pettiness, the ugliness the violence, you know, what is going on.	K: Áno. Spôsob, akým žijem, desivé banality, škaredos , násilie, viete, to èo sa deje.
18:48	S: I would say that there should be nothing but despair relative to the question of change, if the change we're dealing with was the creation of new categories to replace old categories.	S: Povedal by som, že by nemalo by niè, len zúfalstvo èo sa týka zmeny, ak tá zmena, ktorou sa zaoberáme, by bolo vytvorenie nových kategórií namiesto starých.
19:01	K: No, no, I don't mean that.	K: Nie, nie. Nemyslím to!
19:03	S: If on the other hand we were dealing with the question of changing from the without to the within – can men do this? – from the 'to do' to the 'to be', from the pretence of love to love, from the perception of categories to seeing, can men change in that direction? I would have to ask – do men? And they do! You have done it. I have done it.	S: Ak by sme sa, na druhej strane, zaoberali otázkou meni sa z vonka do vnútra - môžu to ¾udia urobi ? - z "robi " na "by " z predstierania lásky k láske, z vnímania kategórií na videnie, môže sa èlovek zmeni týmto spôsobom? Musel by som sa spýta - robia to ¾udia? A robia to! Vy ste to spravili. Ja som to spravil.
19:25	K: Sir, I mean…	K: Pane, myslím si...
19:27	S: Will men do it?	S: Urobia to ¾udia?
19:30	K: Because man has lived as he has lived, with such appalling brutality, such a deception, such lies, hypocrisy and all the rest of it. If I have a son, a brother, that's my concern, my responsibility. Not to change him but to see what it is. I don't want him to imitate me or conform to my pattern which is absurd, or my belief – I have none of that. So I say, 'Look, how is it possible for a human being to change?' Change not into a particular pattern, to bring about a total psychological revolution.	K: Pretože èlovek žije, ako žije, s takou otrasnou brutalitou, takým klamstvom, takými lžami, pokrytectvom, a tým všetkým. Ak mám syna, brata, starám sa, cítim zodpovednos . Nebudem ho meni , ale vidie ho takého, aký je. Nechcem, aby ma napodobòoval alebo aby sa mi prispôsoboval, èo je absurdné, alebo mojej viere. Niè z toho! Takže hovorím: Pozrime sa, ako je možné zmeni ¾udskú bytos . Nemeni na nejaký vzor. Ale prinies nejakú totálnu psychologickú zmenu.
20:26	S: If I were to start some place, Krishnaji, I believe I would start with you. Not because I think you need changing because I don't, nor because I think you would want to change but because I think you want to teach, you want to share. You have received so much joy from understanding and from loving that this radiates from within you. Now, if you wanted to teach someone that there's more to be seen than is seen – and the more is not quantitative but in depth – maybe I would want to change you in this direction that when you speak of the world and its conflict and its tensions, and its violence, and its hypocrisy, that you may also address yourself to another question – which I'm sure you have done but don't speak of it – not only the endurance of inner conflict or exterior conflict but the endurance of inner joy and exterior joy.	S: Ak by sme zaèínali na nejakom mieste Krishnaji, verím, že by som zaèal s vami. Nie preto, že si myslím, že potrebujete zmenu, lebo si to nemyslím, ani preto, že si nemyslím, že by ste sa chceli zmeni ale pretože si myslím, že chcete uèi , chcete to zdie¾a . Získali ste už to¾ko radosti z pochopenia a z lásky, že to z vás vyžaruje. Teraz, ak by ste chceli niekoho uèi , že sa dá vidie ako to, èo vidíme - a to viacej nie je v kvantite ale v håbke - možno by som chcel, aby ste rozmýš¾ali týmto smerom, keï hovoríte o svete a jeho konflikte a napätí, a jeho násilí a pokrytectve, že si môžete tiež položi druhú otázku, - èo si myslím, že ste aj urobili, ale nehovoríte o tom - nielen trvanie veèného vnútorného konfliktu alebo vonkajšieho konfliktu, ale aj trvanie vnútornej radosti a vonkajšej radosti.
21:38	K: Sir, now wait a minute.	K: Pane, poèkajte trošku.
21:40	S: These are always there when you talk but they are not expressed.	S: Sú vždy tam, keï hovoríte, ale neukazujete ich.
21:43	K: When does joy come? When I don't seek it. I mean, it happens! I don't have to cultivate it, the mind hasn't to pursue it.	K: Kedy prichádza rados ? Keï ju neh¾adám. Myslím tým, stáva sa to. Nemusím sa o òu stara , myse¾ sa za òou nemusí naháòa .
22:02	S: Yes, the mind cannot pursue joy.	S: Áno. Myse¾ sa nevie naháòa za rados ou.
22:06	K: Therefore I have to understand… an understanding must take place of what is pleasure and what is joy. That's where we mix…	K: Preto musím pochopi ... musí nasta pochopenie toho, èo je potešenie a èo je rados . To si pletieme...
22:21	S: We mix our levels, yes.	S: Pletieme si pojmy, áno.
22:24	K: To understand joy is more important than to understand pleasure sorry – to understand pleasure is far more important than to understand joy. Because we want pleasure, we pursue pleasure. Everything is our pleasure – the whole moral social structure is based on this enormous pleasure. And pleasure does breed fear, insecurity, and all the rest of it. Now, in the understanding of pleasure, the other thing comes. You don't have to talk about it. The other thing flows, like a fountain. You don't even call it joy, it's ecstasy, something…	K: Pochopi rados je ove¾a dôležitejšie ako pochopi potešenie. Prepáète - pochopi potešenie je ove¾a dôležitejšie než pochopi rados . Pretože chceme potešenie, naháòame sa za potešením. Všetko je naše potešenie - celá morálna sociálna štruktúra sa zakladá na tomto enormnom potešení. A potešenie plodí strach, neistotu a celý ten zbytok. Teraz, po pochopení potešenia prichádza ïalšia vec. Nemusíte o tom hovori . Tá vec teèie ako fontána. Ani jej nehovoríte rados , je to extáza, nieèo ...
23:14	S: Are you saying then that in the pursuit of fear through escape, or in the pursuit of…	S: Hovoríte, že v snahe uniknú strachu cez únik, alebo v naháòaní sa za...
23:22	K: …joy, I mean pleasure.	K: ...rados ou, myslím potešením.
23:24	S: Or in the pursuit of pleasure – in both pursuits we find death and also a death to the dissipation of energy that keeps us from being joyous. K: That's right, that's right.	S: Alebo v naháòaní sa za rozkošou - v oboch prípadoch nájdeme smr a taktiež smr v rozptýlení energie ktoré nám bránia by radostný. K: To je pravda, to je pravda.
23:35	S: And from being joyous, and seeing, and being loving, or simply being it's all the same thing.	S: A od toho by radostný, vidie by milujúci, alebo jednoducho by , je to to isté.
23:44	K: You see, through negation the positive is.	K: Vidíte. Cez negáciu k pozitívnemu.
23:50	S: Yes.	S: Áno.
23:51	K: Not the positive. Assert the positive is to negate the real.	K: Nie pozitívnemu...presadzovaním pozitívneho je negova realitu.
24:00	S: But as we have said before to negate the categories is really not what we are dealing with, nor are we dealing with the negation of seeing simply. We're dealing with the negation of all of those obstacles, like pleasure, to joy. Because unless you negate pleasure you will never be joyous. And when you're joyous you're also quite pleasurable.	S: Ale ako sme už povedali predtým, negova kategórie v skutoènosti nie je to, s èím bojujme, nie s èím sa zaoberáme, negáciou vidie jednoducho. Bojujeme s negovaním všetkých tých prekážok, od potešenia k radosti. Pretože pokia¾ nenegujete potešenie, nikdy nebudete radostný. A keï ste radostný, ste tiež celkom príjemný.
24:24	K: You don't talk about it. The moment you're conscious that you're joyous, it goes. Like being happy, and you say, 'How happy I am!' It becomes nonsense when you say, 'How happy I am!'	K: Nehovorte o tom. V okamihu, keï si to uvedomíte, že ste veselý, je to preè. Ako keï ste š astný a hovoríte: Aký som s astný! Je to nezmysel, keï hovoríte: "Aký som š astný!"
24:38	S: Yes, because now you've rationalized it and put it in a category, now it becomes something to speculate about rather than do, to be. At the same time, since we are pursuing as deeply as we can… pursuing seeing and understanding and loving or this undivided attention, since we're pursuing that and we found that one cannot pursue it except by negating fear or negating pleasure…	S: Áno, pretože teraz ste si to zracionalizovali, a dali do kategórie, teraz sa to stáva nieèím, nad èím môžete špekulova , viacej než tým by . V rovnakom èase, pretože to sledujeme tak podrobne, ako vieme ... sledujúc videnie a pochopenie a milovanie alebo túto sústredenú pozornos , pretože to sledujeme, a my sme zistili, že to nemožno sledova s výnimkou negácie strachu alebo negovaním potešenia ...
25:07	K: Yes, sir. Understanding pleasure understanding the whole nature of pleasure.	K: Áno, pane. Pochopi potešenie, pochopi celá podstatu potešenia.
25:13	S: Then we must ask ourselves, if these are not the avenues to seeing or loving or being – and I suppose we will ultimately get to the question of being, or being one, we may get to that question because we want to discover that you are one with the world and the world is one with you and you are one with myself and I am one with you: we want to discover that. And we've seen that seeing must take place, and loving must take place, an awareness of being must take place – we've seen what to do to get rid of what gets in the way of the most exhilarating of all experiences or realities, the reality of just being – I am, enough. I don't need these things to be – here I am. Then what would you think would be the next step – and we're not talking about process or method now – what would you perceive would be the next step?	S: Tak sa musíme pýta sami seba, èi toto nie sú cesty na to, ako vidie , alebo milova alebo by - a myslím, že nakoniec sa dostaneme k otázke bytia, alebo bytia ako jeden, môžeme sa dosta k tejto otázke pretože chceme zisti èi ste v jednote so svetom , a svet je v jednote s vami, a ja som jedno sám so sebou a ja som jedno s vami. To chceme objavi . A videli sme, že to videnie sa musí udia , a že musí nasta láska, uvedomovanie si seba musí nasta - videli sme, èo robi ako sa zbavi toho, èo sa nám stavia do cesty, najpovznášajucejšie zo všetkých zážitkov a skutoèností, realita len bytia - Ja som, staèí. Nepotrebujem tie veci na to, aby som bol - Som! Èo si myslíte, že sa potom stane? - a teraz nehovoríme o procese alebo metóde - èo si myslíte, že bude nasledova ?
26:11	K: Next step of what? S: In the development…	K: Ïalší krok èoho? S: Vo vývoji...
26:15	K: From what?	K: Z èoho?
26:17	S: From this undivided attention that we discussed earlier and from this loving which we found to be the same as attention choiceless attention, and from this being which we found to be the same as loving and seeing or understanding and now we're trying to pursue your…	S: Z tejto plnej pozornosti o ktorej sme hovorili predtým a z tejto lásky, o ktorej sme zistili, že je rovnaká ako pozornos , bezvýhradná pozornos , a z tohto bytia, ktoré sme zistili, že je rovnaké ako láska, videnie a pochopenie a teraz sa snažíme sledova vašu...
26:39	K: What takes place next? What happens?	K: Èo sa odohrá ïalej? Èo sa deje?
26:41	S: …experience of – I don't like to use the word 'oneness' because that gets us at the end before we go to the middle thing but what does one do next after one has seen, and has loved and has been?	S: ... skúsenos z - nerád používam slovo "Jednota" pretože nás to dostane na koniec skôr než sa dostaneme k ïalšej veci, ale èo robí èlovek ïalej, potom èo uvidel, a miloval a bol?
26:56	K: One lives, sir. S: One lives. So that to live is the same as to love and to see, in any real sense.	K: Èlovek žije, pane. S: Èlovek žije. Takže ži je to isté ako milova a vidie , v skutoènosti.
27:03	K: But it means, sir, the understanding of death.	K: Ale to znamená, v skutoènosti pane, chápanie smrti.
27:10	S: The understanding of death.	S: Chápanie smrti.
27:12	K: Death. Because to love, one must die.	K: Smrti. Pretože aby èlovek miloval, musí zomrie .
27:19	S: Unquestionably.	S: Nepochybne.
27:21	K: So there must be the investigation, the understanding the awareness, what it means to die. Without that there is no love.	K: Takže musí tam by skúmanie, pochopenie odpovedí, èo znamená zomrie . Bez toho nie je láska.
27:34	S: But could not this be a fiction, because who is to tell us what it's like to die? K: We're going to find out.	S: Ale nemôže to by fikcia, pretože kto nám povie aké to je umiera ? K: Ideme to zisti .
27:40	S: Find, good. K: I don't want anybody to tell me, because that means authority.	S: V poriadku, dobre. K: Nechcem, aby mi to niekto povedal, lebo to znamená autoritu.
27:46	S: Well, it means dead people, who can't speak.	S: To potom znamená màtvi, ktorí nemôžu hovori .
27:48	K: Not only that. The whole Asiatic world believes in reincarnation, as you know, and, in the Christian world, the resurrection and so on. To find this out one must investigate if there is any permanent thing in me that reincarnates, that is reborn, resurrected, one must enquire into this question, if there is anything permanent. Permanent? Nothing is permanent! The carpets go, all the structure, the technological thing, all the things man has put together is... in a flux.	K: Nie len to. Ako viete, celý ázijský svet verí v reinkarnáciu, a v kres anskom svete vo vzkriesenie a tak ïalej. Aby to èlovek zistil, musí skúma , èi existuje akéko¾vek trvalá vec vo mne, ktorá sa reinkarnuje, že sa znovuzrodí, vstane z màtvych, èlovek sa musí pýta na otázku, èi je v nás nieèo permanentné. Permanentné? Niè nie je trvalé! Koberce sa ošúchajú, celá štruktúra, technologická vec, Všetko èo èlovek zložil je ... v pohybe.
28:43	S: You are not suggesting that the measure is permanent. You are not suggesting that the measure is permanent.	S: Nenaznaèujete, že stav je trvalý. S: Nenaznaèujete, že ten stav je trvalý.
28:49	K: Measure? S: The measure. You were born and you have lived and you will die, and this will take you a certain number of years.	K: Stav? S: Stav. Narodil si sa, žiješ a zomrieš, a to bude trva nieko¾ko rokov.
28:59	K: Seventy years, thirty years, twenty years, whatever it is.	K: Sedemdesiat rokov, tridsa rokov, dvadsa rokov, ko¾koko¾vek.
29:01	S: Is the measure real or are you real?	S: Je stav skutoèný, alebo ste skutoèný?
29:03	K: No, no. I am not talking in terms of measure.	K: Nie, nie. Nehovorím o stave.
29:06	S: So then if the measure isn't real but something external to you then do we have a right to say that you end simply?	S: Takže ak stav nie je skutoèný ale znamená pre vás nieèo mimo, máte právo hovori , že jednoducho skonèíte?
29:16	K: We are coming to that. You know, the whole Greek world thought in terms of measurement.	K: Dostávam sa k tomu. Viete, celý Grécky svet, uvažuje v termínoch stavu.
29:27	S: Yes.	S: Áno.
29:28	K: And the whole Western world is based on measurement. And the Eastern world said, measure is illusion. And they went into other kind of… S: …measures.	K: A celý západný svet je založený na meraní. A východný svet povedal, stav je ilúzia. A prešli k inému druhu ... S: ... stavu.
29:40	K: Yes, other kind of measure and they called it immeasurable. Now, I am saying, sir life, living, as we now live, is a conflict. What we call love is the pursuit of pleasure. What we call death is an avoidance, is fear, dread of it. And being afraid, so completely, of such an ending we have reincarnation theory, various other theories which give us great satisfaction, great comfort. And that is not an answer.	K: Áno, iný druh stavu a nazvali ho nesmierny. Ja teraz hovorím, pane: život, žitie, ako dnes žijeme, je konflikt. To, èomu hovoríme láska, je naháòanie sa za potešením. To, èo nazývame smr , je vyhýbanie sa, je strach, hrôza z nej. A bá sa, tak úplne, takéhoto ukonèenia máme teóriu reinkarnácie, rôzne iné teórie èo nám dáva ve¾kú spokojnos , ve¾kú pohodu. A to nie je odpoveï.
30:19	S: It keeps us from seeing the reality.	S: To nás odpútava od reality.
30:21	K: So, negate all that. So there must be the understanding of death. What is death? There is the physiological ending. We don't mind that. We all see death everywhere. But what human beings are concerned with is the psychological ending the 'me' ending – the me which says, 'I own this house' my property, my wife, my husband, my knowledge; I am going to lose all that, therefore I don't want to lose. The known is more attractive than the unknown. The known is the factor of fear. S: In a rational world.	K: Tak to znegujme! Takže tam musí by pochopenie smrti. Èo je smr ? Je to fyziologický koniec? To nám nevadí. Smr vidíme všade. Ale èoho sa ¾udia boja je psychologický koniec. Koniec JA - toho JA, ktoré hovorí:" Ja vlastním tento dom, môj majetok, moju ženu, môjho muža, moje vedomosti. To všetko stratím, preto to nechcem strati . To èo poznám je ove¾a atraktívnejšie, než to, èo nepoznám. Znalos je faktor strachu S: V racionálnom svete.
31:12	K: We are taking, looking at it. S: Yes.	K: Vnímame ho, pozeráme sa naò. S: Áno.
31:15	K: So I have to understand what does death mean? Does it mean that there is a permanent entity – call it the soul, the Hindus call it the atman, doesn't matter what name you give it – a permanent entity that never dies but evolves: resurrected, reincarnated, in time. Is there such thing as permanent entity? Not a theory not a speculative assertion, 'There is or there is not' but to find out for oneself if there is a permanent entity, the 'me' that says, 'I must survive.' Therefore I must have future lives, whether in heaven or doesn't matter. Is there such thing? Which is psychologically. Which thought has put together as the 'me'.	K: Takže musím pochopi , èo znamená smr ? Znamená to, že je tu stála entita - nazývaná duša, hinduisti jej hovoria Atman. Nezáleží na tom, aké meno jej dáte- stála entita, èo nikdy neumiera, ale sa vyvíja: vzkriesi sa, reinkarnuje sa v èase. Existuje nieèo také ako trvalá entita? Nie teória, nie špekulatívne tvrdenie èi "existuje, alebo neexistuje" ale zisti sám, èi existuje stála entita, to "JA", ktoré hovorí, "Musím preži ." Preto musím ma budúce životy, èi už v nebi, alebo to je jedno. Existuje taká vec? Z psychologického h¾adiska? Èo si myse¾ poskladala dokopy ako"JA".
32:24	S: I cannot conceive of there being a permanent entity associated with what we call the me.	S: Neviem si predstavi , že existuje trvalá entita spojená s tým, èo nazývame"JA."
32:30	K: Obviously. S: Obviously, yes.	K: Samozrejme. S: Samozrejme, áno.
32:32	K: Then is there a permanent me apart from that?	K: Ïalej, existuje okrem toho permanetné "JA"?
32:35	S: But then we can ask the question – is there something immeasurable about me, apart from that?	S: Ale potom sa môžeme pýta , èi existuje nieèo vo mne, èo sa nedá zmera ?
32:43	K: The moment you say, 'The me is the immeasurable' then I am back again.	K: V okamihu, keï poviete: "Moje "JA" je nesmierne "potom ste zase spä .
32:47	S: You are back again, right. Apart from the self, the not me.	S: Ste zase spä , áno. Okrem mòa, nie ja.
32:51	K: I am going to find out. S: Yes. Now we must pursue that.	K: Idem to zisti . S: Áno. Teraz sa o to usilujem.
32:54	K: That's it. There must be discovery of whether there is the immeasurable or not. Not: 'there is' or 'there is not', one must come upon it, the mind must come upon it. So, there is no permanent self – higher, lower – no permanency. Therefore what is, then, death? Physically, biologically, there is death.	K: To je ono. Musí tu by objav, èi existuje to nesmierne, alebo nie. Nie: existuje, alebo neexistuje, èlovek na to musí prís , myse¾ na to musí prís . Takže neexistuje trvalé JA", - vyššie, nižšie - žiadna stálos . Potom, èo je to smr ? Fyzicky, biologicky, smr existuje.
33:25	S: This we all understand. We see it all the time.	S: Toto všetci chápeme. Vidíme to po celú dobu.
33:27	K: Everything goes. What one is afraid of is the psychological accumulation in relationship of every form of image, knowledge, function – that's what we are frightened of losing. That takes the form of the 'me' which is going to evolve, become more and more perfect till it reaches heaven or whatever. We see that is false. Then what is death?	K: Všetko je pominute¾né. Èoho sa èlovek bojí je psychologická akumulácia vo vz ahu každej formy predstavy, vedomostí, fungovania - to je to, èo sa bojíme strati . Èo má podobu "ja" ktoré sa bude vyvíja , bude stále viac a viac perfektnejsšie, kým nedosiahne nebo alebo èo? Vidíme, že je to klamstvo. Potom, èo je smr ?
34:04	S: You were suggesting that we can discover the meaning of the words 'to live' by looking for the meaning of the words 'to die.'	S: Naznaèujete, že môžeme zisti význam slova "ži " pri poh¾ade na význam slova "zomrie ."
34:14	K: They are related. S: They are related. Unquestionably they are related. K: They are related.	K: Súvisia. S: Súvisia. Nepochybne súvisia. K: Súvisia.
34:18	S: And most religious writers in comparative religion have said, that in order to live one must die.	S: A väèšina náboženských spisovate¾ov hovorí, že aby èlovek žil, musí zomrie .
34:25	K: Sir, as I don't read these books or any of these things it is an actual fact. To live you must die. Which means, dying means dying every day to all the accumulations that you have gathered during the day, ending each day, dying, so that the mind is fresh every day, is new.	K: Pane, preto neèítam tieto knihy alebo niektoré z týchto vecí. To je skutoèný fakt. Aby si žil, musíš zomrie . Èo je, že umrie znamená, umiera každý deò všetkému, èo sme nahromadili poèas dòa, konèi každý deò, umierajúc. Tak, že myse¾ je èerstvá každý deò, je nová.
34:46	S: Yes. Now, in order to pursue the question of 'to live' by looking at the question of 'to die' and looking at it finally.	S: Áno. Teraz, aby sme mohli sledova otázku "žitia" pri poh¾ade na otázku "zomrie " a pozrie sa na to kompletne.
34:56	K: We do.	K: To robíme!
34:57	S: The ultimate death, the body has disintegrated in the grave.	S: Na koneènú smr , keï sa telo rozpadá v hrobe.
35:01	K: The body is important, to look after it, care for it, and all the rest of it. S: But bury it when it is dead.	K: Telo je dôležité. Stara sa oò, starostlivo, a celý zvyšok toho. S: A pochova ho, keï je màtve.
35:07	K: Get rid of it. Bury it, burn it – it's simpler.	K: Zbavte sa ho! Pochovajte, spá¾te - jednoduché.
35:12	S: Yes. Now suppose that we want to see what happens when one dies in order to see what happens when one lives. That's what we're doing. K: That's it. Therefore I must first understand what it means to live not what it means to die. One's life as it is is a turmoil – as it is. It is chaos, it is a mess, with all kinds of ideals, conclusions – it is a mess. Now, if there is no order in this mess I can't understand what death is. Because death is perfect order. I don't know if you see.	S: Áno jednoduché. Teraz predpokladajme, že chceme vidie , èo sa stane, keï èlovek zomrie, aby bolo vidie èo sa stane, keï èlovek žije. To je to, èo robíme. OK: To je ono. Preto musím najprv pochopi èo znamená ži . Nie èo znamená zomrie ! Nieèí život, taký aký je, je zmätok - aký je. Je to chaos, je to bordel... všetky druhy ideálov, záverov - je to neporiadok. Pokia¾ nie je poriadok v tomto zmätku, nemôžem pochopi , èo je smr . Pretože smr je dokonalý poriadok. Neviem, èi to vidíte.
35:59	S: What do you mean, because order to me is something imposed from without.	S: Èo tým myslíte? Lebo poriadok pre mòa je nieèo dané zvonka.
36:02	K: Wait, sir, I'm coming to that. Death is perfect order because it is the ending of disorder.	K: Poèkajte, pane, dostávam sa k tomu. Smr je dokonalý poriadok pretože to je koniec neporiadku.
36:08	S: All right. I understand. Yes.	S: Dobre. Rozumiem. Áno.
36:14	K: So, there must be the ending of disorder in my living.	K: Takže, v mojom živote musí by ukonèenie neporiadku.
36:22	S: Yes.	S: Áno.
36:23	K: And the ending of disorder is to be aware of what is disorder, choicelessly. What is disorder? My belief, my gods, my country, my saying, 'This is better' – you follow? – all this terrible violence. See it as it is. And when you see it as it is without separation you have energy – as we went into that. Then in perceiving disorder there is order, which is harmony. Now, having established that – established in the sense: see it, realize, be it – then death is not separate from order, they are together. Order means the ending of disorder.	K: A koncom neporiadku je by si vedomý toho, èo to je neporiadok. Bezvýhradne. Èo je neporiadok. Moje presvedèenie, môj boh, moja krajina, moje vnímanie: "Toto je lepšie" - sledujete? - Toto všetko strašné násilie. Pozrie sa na to, ako to je. A keï vidíte ako to je, bez separácie, máte energiu - o tom sme už hovorili. Potom vnímame neporiadok tam, kde je poriadok. Èo je harmónia. Teraz, keï sme to zaviedli, vo zmysle - vidie to, uvedomi si, by tým - potom smr nie je odelená od poriadku. Sú spolu. Poriadok znamená koniec neporiadku.
37:20	S: Yes, and disorder or order, means a consciousness of my presence within you or your presence within me, or of our oneness. We must pursue the question of our becoming aware or giving this undivided attention or loving each other in which each other is eliminated. Now this is a duality.	S: Áno, a neporiadok alebo poriadok, znamená vedomie mojej prítomnosti vo vás alebo vašu prítomnos vo mne, alebo našej jednoty. Musíme sledova otázku nášho uvedomovania si alebo venova bezvýhradnú pozornos alebo milova sa, èo sa navzájom vyluèuje. Teraz je to dualita.
37:50	K: There is only a state... Look, sir, there is no you and me.	K:To je len stav ... Pozrite sa, pane, nie ja a ty.
37:53	S: Yes. K: I am not you and you are not me. There is that quality of awareness, choiceless, that sense of attention, in which the me and the you ceases. You don't say: 'It's unity', unity implies division.	S: Áno. K: Nie som vy a vy nie ste ja. Tá kvalita vedomia, bez výberu, tá pozornos , v ktorom "ja" a "ty" prestane. Nehovorte: "Je to jednota" jednota zahàòa rozdelenie.
38:13	S: But you are using unity in the mathematical sense now. I am using unity... Oneness to me implies no, oneness to me means the same as undivided attention. K: Yes.	S: Ale vy používate jednotu v matematickom zmysle. Ja používam jednotu ... Jednota pre mòa znamená, nie, jednota je pre mòa to isté ako plná pozornos . K: Áno.
38:28	S: It doesn't mean division. It doesn't presuppose division.	S: To neznamená rozdelenie. Nepredpokladá rozdelenie.
38:31	K: You see, sir, we are discussing what does it mean to live, to love and to die. That is, the ending of disorder is the ending of death. I don't know there's great beauty in this. In that state there is not you and me – there is no division. Then you can find out in that state what is the immeasurable. Only then you can find out not before, because then it becomes merely speculation, or somebody says, 'There is the immeasurable,there is no God or God' – that has no value. Only when there is this complete order, really mathematical order, born out of disorder, not a blueprint imposed on disorder, then you will find out, then the mind discovers whether there is an immeasurable or not. That, nobody can say, 'yes' or 'no'. If you don't see it, if there is no perception of the immeasurable then it merely becomes conceptual. And most religions live on conceptual.	K: Viete pane, hovoríme o tom, èo znamená ži , milova a zomrie . To znamená, že ukonèenie neporiadku je ukonèenie smrti. Nie je v tom krása? V tomto stave neexistuje ty a ja - nie je tam rozdelenie. Potom, v tom stave sa môžete dozvedie , èo je to nesmiernos . Až potom sa to môžete dozvedie . Nie skôr, pretože potom sa to stane púhou špekuláciou, alebo niekto hovorí, "Neexistuje , existuje žiadny boh alebo boh " - to nemá žiadnu hodnotu. Iba v prípade, že je to kompletný poriadok, naozaj matematický poriadok, zrodený z neporiadku. Nie nápad zrodený z poruchy. Potom to zistíte. Potom myse¾ zistí èi existuje nesmiernos alebo nie. Potom nikto nemôže poveda , 'je alebo nie je'. Ak to nevidíte, ak nevnímate nesmiernos , potom sa to stáva púhou koncepciou. A väèšina náboženstiev funguje na koncepcii.
40:05	S: Suppose we were to pursue this question of order as the next step and ask ourselves, when we say things like this, that peace harmony, like the harmony of my fingers working together or like the harmony of you and I in our dialogue, if we were to say that peace or harmony is the tranquillity that's associated with order, and wanted to say and what more do we mean by order than just orderliness?	Predpokladajme, že by sme sledovali otázku poriadku, ako ïalší krok a pýtali sa sami seba, keï povieme veci, ako je táto, že mier harmónia, rovnako ako harmónia prstov fungujúcich dokopy, alebo ako harmóniu vás a mòa v našom rozhovore, ak by sme mali poveda , že mier a harmónia je pokoj ktorý je spojený s poriadkom, a niekto povedal, èo to má viac spoloèného s poriadkom, než s usporiadanos ou?
40:38	K: Oh my! Orderliness every housewife has.	K: Ach! Bože! Usporiadanos má každá gazdinka.
40:43	S: Yes, and can be in complete turmoil in the possession of orderliness.	S: Áno, a vo vnútri môže by v úplnom zmätku.
40:46	K: Turmoil inside. We are talking not only outward order but deep, inward order.	K: Zmätok vo vnútri. My hovoríme nielen o vankajšom poriadku, ale hlbokom, vnútornom poriadku.
40:51	S: Yes. Now, what does this deep, inward can I use the word 'ordination' rather than 'order'?	S: Áno. A teraz, èo je tak hlboko, vovnútri, môžem použi slovo "zasvätenie" skôr ako "poriadok"?
40:56	K: Ordination – I don't know quite what…	K: Zasvätenie - neviem presne èo ...
40:58	S: The ordination of one to another, then remove the divisions.	S: Zasvätenie, jedného k druhému, potom odstránenie rozporov.
41:04	K: Ordination. If we understand by that word order in the sense no conflict, no friction, no sense of me being bigger than you, or no comparison, no sense of ambition, greed...	K: Zasvätenie. Ak to chápeme v tom zmysle, žiadny rozpor, žiadne trenie, žiadny pocit mòa, ktoré je väèšie než vy, žiadne porovnávanie, žiadne ambície, chamtivos ...
41:24	S: Possession	S: Vlastníctvo.
41:25	K: the real quality of mind which is not concerned with all this bilge with all this nonsense – then that is order.	K: Skutoèná kvalita mysle, ktorá sa nezaoberá všetkým týmto budovaním, s týmito nezmyslami - potom je to poriadok.
41:35	S: Yes. So then order and peace and tranquillity, which is energy in its fullness rather than the lack of energy. It's not activity but it's the fullness of energy, so it's dynamic.	S: Áno. Takže poriadok a mier a pokoj, èo je energia vo svojej plnosti, skôr než nedostatok energie. nie je to èinnos , ale je to plnos energie, takže je to dynamické.
41:51	K: That is necessary, isn't it? When there is that complete order, the mind is no longer in conflict therefore has abundance of energy.	K: Je tak, èi nie, že ak je kompletný poriadok, myse¾ už nie je v rozpore a má preto dostatok energie.
42:04	S: And what has been done, by you or by me, as we relate to each other in order to achieve this order that we are speaking about?	S: A èo sme urobili, vy, alebo ja, vzájomne, aby sme dosiahli tento poriadok ... o ktorom hovoríme?
42:18	K: You can't achieve it. Out of being aware of disorder, choicelessly, order comes naturally.	K: Nemôžete ho dosiahnu . Mimo uvedomovania si neporiadku, bezvýhradne, poriadok prichádza prirodzene.
42:27	S: But is it true that many people do not achieve order? And we were also asking the question: 'Can we change disorder into order or can we change death into life, can we change hate into love can we change blindness into seeing?' These are the questions we've been dealing with. and we haven't answered the question: can this change take place? Just there it is, you know. But if we wanted to deal with this…	S: Ale je pravda, že mnohí ¾udia nedosahujú poriadok? A my sme sa tiež pýtali na otázku: "Môžeme zmeni neporiadok na poriadok, ako môžeme zmeni smr na život? Nenávis na lásku? Môžeme zmeni slepotu na videnie? " To sú otázky, ktorými sa zaoberáme. A neodpovedali sme na otázku: Môže táto zmena prebehnú ? Proste je to tu, viete. Ale ak by sme sa chceli s tým vysporiada ...
42:54	K: I or you listen to what is being said. You give your whole attention not as a Catholic or this or that – you give your complete attention! In that state of attention there is a transformation. You are no longer a Hindu, Buddhist or whatever it is you have finished with all that. You are now a total human being. Then you go round talking about it – you follow? You are active, you are an outsider operating on the world. But you are not of the world but an outsider.	K: Poèúvate, èo hovorím. Dávate tomu plnú pozornos , nie ako katolík alebo ten èi ten - dávate tomu plnú pozornos ! V tomto stave pozornosti je transformácia. Už nie ste Hind, Budhista alebo èo to je. Skonèili ste s tým všetkým. Teraz ste úplná ¾udská bytos . Potom pôjdete a budete o tom hovori - budete... Ste aktívny, ste outsider pôsobiaci vo svete. Ale nie ste mimo sveta, ale ste outsider.
43:43	S: Would you say that in our conversation that the closer we get to the truth, the less conscious you become of the fact that I am a Catholic priest? Does it matter?	S: Povedali by ste, že v našej konverzácii, že èím bližšie sa dostávame k pravde, tým menej si uvedomujete že som katolícky kòaz? Záleží na tom?
43:54	K: Not in the least. S: Not in the least.	Ani v najmenšom. S: Ani v najmenšom.
43:56	K: But it is up to you.	K: Ale to je len na vás.
43:58	S: And it has not mattered to me whether you are a priest or not a priest. I haven't even thought of that because I am giving choiceless attention to you.	S: A nezáležalo by na me, èi ste kòaz alebo nie kòaz. Nemám, ani mi nenapadlo, že... pretože vám dávam bezvýhranú pozornos .
44:05	K: It makes a little difference. It makes a difference. Take, for instance, I have met in India and elsewhere... Several Hindus have come to me and said 'Why don't you put on sannyasis robes?' You know, sannyasis, the monks robe. I said, 'Why should I?' 'To show that you are not of the world.' I said, 'Look, I'm not wanting to show anything to anybody.' This is real to me, that's good enough. If you want to come and listen, listen. But don't go by my garb, by my gesture, by my face, that's not important. But to them it is important because they use that as a platform from which to attack or to distract or to take. But if you are not standing on any platform, if you don't belong to anything, why should I have any collar, no collar, no shirt… [laughs]	K: Je to rozdiel. Je to rozdiel. Zoberme si napríklad, v Indii som stretol... nieko¾ko Hindov prišli ku mne a povedalo: "Preèo si neobleèieš na seba sannyasini habit? " Viete, sannyasini, rúcho mnícha. Povedal som: "Preèo by som mal?" "Aby si ukázal, že nie si z vonkajšieho sveta.' Povedal som: "Hej, ja nechcem ukazova nikomu niè. " Toto je moje skutoèné ja. To staèí. Ak chcete prís a poèúva , poèúvajte. Ale nesúïte pod¾a mojom odevu, mojich gest, pod¾a mojej tváre, to nie je dôležité. Ale pre nich to je dôležité, pretože to používajú ako platformu, z ktorej zaútoèi , odvráti sa alebo stiahnu sa. Ale ak nestojíte na žiadnej platforme, ak nikam nepatríte, preèo by som mal ma akýko¾vek golier, bez goliera, trièko ... [smiech]
45:12	S: But I think as we pursue the question of what it means to live and to die, to be and to not be, to love and to hate as we pursue those things, we must also at the same time pursue the question: what does it mean to belong? Now, if you asked me, 'Do you belong to the Catholic Church?' I would say, 'Of course not' because I am not a thing which can be possessed by anyone. K: Quite.	S: Ale myslím, že keï sme sledujeme otázku, èo znamená ži a zomrie , by a neby , milova a nenávidie , ako sledujeme tieto veci, musíme tiež v rovnakom èase sledova otázku: èo to znamená patri ? Teraz, ak by ste sa ma spýtali: "Patríte do katolíckej cirkvi? " Povedal by som, "Samozrejme, že nie ' pretože nie som vec ktorú môže ktoko¾vek vlastni . K: Presne.
45:36	S: Nor is the Catholic Church something I possess. So we would not like to use the word 'belong' If we had a love relationship with each other could I say you are my friend? K: Yes.	S: Ani katolícka cirkev to èo mám ja. Takže by som nerád používal slovo "patri . Keby sme spolu mali srdeèný vz ah mohol by som poveda , že ste môj priate¾? K: Áno.
45:48	S: No I couldn't because that would connote belonging.	S: Nie, nemohol, pretože to bude znamena vlastníctvo.
45:50	K: I see what you mean. Yes, yes.	K: Vidím, èo máte na mysli. Áno áno.
45:52	S: I could not say you were my friend. We use the word all the time but the word 'my' distorts what we see when we...	S: Nemohol by som poveda , že si môj priate¾. Používame to slovo stále. Ale slovo "moje" skresluje èo vidíme, keï sme ...
45:58	K: Sir, I am questioning, why do we belong to anything at all?	K: Pane, pýtam sa, preèo vôbec patríme nieèomu?
46:03	S: I don't think we can. If we are free then we are not slaves and we don't belong to anything. K: That is the main thing.	S: Myslím si, že len...keï sme slobodní, potom nie sme otroci a nepatríme k nièomu. K: To je hlavná vec.
46:09	S: The possessive relationship is irrelevant.	S: Privlastòovací vz ah je irelevantný.
46:12	K: Not to belong to any organized spiritual or religious group, or belong to a party, this or that. Because that encourages divisions.	K: Nepatri k žiadnej organizovanej, duchovnej alebo náboženskej skupine, alebo osobe, tomuto alebo tamtomu. Pretože to podnecuje rozdelenie.
46:23	S: Yes. If I am, or if I am free – those mean the same thing then I am not capable of being possessed by anyone. I don't belong. The word doesn't mean anything.	S: Áno. Ak som, alebo som slobodný - to je to isté - potom nie som schopný by vlastnený kýmko¾vek. Nepatrím. To slovo niè neznamená.
46:32	K: Not to belong means to stand alone.	K: Nepatri znamená stá samostatne.
46:40	S: But this is the contradiction of what we have been saying during the whole time. No, not to belong is the price one must pay for being and loving and seeing anything.	S: Ale to je rozpor toho, èo hovoríme po celú dobu. Nepatri , je cena ktorú èlovek musí zaplati za to, že je milujúci a vidiaci.
46:56	K: Yes, sir, but also it implies not to belong to any structure which human beings have put together.	K: Áno, pane, ale tiež to znamená, nepatri k akejko¾vek štruktúre ktorú ¾udské bytosti dali dohromady.
47:10	S: Yes.	S: Áno.
47:13	K: Which means that you have to stand alone, outside. Not belong to all this mess. Sir, when you have order you don't belong to disorder.	K: Èo znamená, že musíte zosta sám, vonku. Nepatri k tomuto celému zmätku. Pane, keï máte poriadok, nepatríte k neporiadku.
47:28	S: But now I think we are getting close to what we wanted to say that to die is to live.	S: Ale teraz sa stále približujeme k tomu, èo sme chceli poveda , že zomrie je ži .
47:38	K: Sir, is that a concept or a reality?	K: Pane, je to koncept alebo realita?
47:42	S: No, no, that's an experience, that's a reality.	S: Nie, nie, to je zážitok, to je realita.
47:45	K: If it is real it is something burning! It isn't just a… it burns everything false!	K: Vtedy, keï skutoène nieèo horí! To nie je len ... páli to všetko falošné!
47:52	S: I see that, and of course we experience this all the time. What I'm saying is, if one can get over the fear of dying and one can understand and live with the fullness of this energy that we're talking about. I think by the same token, if one can get over the question of belonging, or having in any way, one can get to the question that being is. I wonder if this is loneliness, or being alone. I wonder if this is being…	S: Vidím to, a samozrejme to zažívam po celú dobu. To èo hovorím je, èi èlovek môže prekona strach zo smrti a pochopi to a ži plnos ou tejto energie o ktorej hovoríme. A rovnako, èi èlovek môže prekona otázku spolupatriènosti, alebo vlastnenia, vo všetkom, dosta sa k otázke že "by " znamená "je". Zaujímalo by ma èi je to samota, z toho, že som sám. Zaujímalo by ma, èi je to, že ...
48:28	K: The danger of being, one has to go into that. What is it to be? We can put it into various categories. The category is not being.	K: Nebezpeèenstvo bytia, èlovek sa na to musí pozrie ... Èo to znamená "by ?" Môžeme to da do rôznych kategórií, ale kategória nie je "bytie."
48:40	S: But when you suggested that, when we were discussing the question of what it is to be, and we pursued this through the question of dying and belonging, and you said – to be is to be alone. Is that what you want to say?	S: Ale ste naznaèil, keï sme diskutovali túto otázku, aké to je, a my sme preberali túto otázku umierania a spolupatriènosti, a vy ste povedal - By , je by sám. Je to to, èo chcete poveda ?
48:55	K: How can I, sir, if I die to my conditioning as a Hindu… how can I belong to… be a Hindu? It has no meaning.	K: Ako môžem vedie , èi moje podmienenie ako Hind ... Ako môžem patri ... by Hind? To nemá zmysel.
49:04	S: Fine. But having died to being…	S: Dobre. Ale zomrie kvôli tomu aby ...
49:07	K: See what happens, sir. I discard, I throw away the garb of Hinduism, or Catholicism, whatever it is, and what takes place? I am an outsider. I am an outsider in the sense I may say, 'I love you' but I am still an outsider, because there is a state of disorder to which human beings belong and the man who is outside, he doesn't belong.	K: Pozrite, èo sa deje, pane. Zbavil som sa, zahodil som odev hinduistu, alebo katolicizmu, èi èo to je, a èo sa deje? Som outsider. Som outsider v tom zmysle, že môžem poveda , "milujem a", ale som stále outsider. Preto to je stav neporiadku, do ktorého ¾udské bytosti patria, a èlovek, ktorý je vonku, tam nepatrí.
49:37	S: Unquestionably. Or may not have a sense of belonging or cannot use the word 'to belong'. I cannot use the word 'to belong'.	S: Bezpochyby. Alebo nemusí majú pocit spolupatriènosti alebo nemožno použi slovo "patri ". Nemôžem použi slovo "patri ".
49:43	K: He is out! There is no relationship! Now, when there is no relationship between disorder and order – you follow, sir? S: I follow.	K: On je vonku! Neexistuje žiadny vz ah! Teraz, keï neexistuje žiadny vz ah medzi poriadkom a neporiadkom, - sledujete, pane? S: Sledujem.
49:56	K: Then, what is the state of the mind which is not that?	K: Tak, aký je stav mysle, ktorá nie je taká?
50:04	S: You are suggesting that the state of the mind is one of being alone.	S: Keï naznaèuje, že stav mysle je by sám.
50:09	K: Alone in the sense it is not contaminated, it is really innocent – innocence in the sense it cannot be hurt. After all, the word 'innocency', the root meaning is 'not to be hurt.'	K: Sám v tom zmysle, že to nie je kontaminované, je to naozaj nevinné. Nevinnos v tom zmysle, že nemôže by zranená. Koniec koncov, slovo "nevinnos " koreò význam je "neby ublížený."
50:28	S: Yes.	S: Áno.
50:29	K: Nocere – you know. So, it is no longer though it may live in the world, it is not of the world.	K: ...viete. Tak, už to nie je žijeme vo svete, ktorý už nie je z tohto sveta.
50:39	S: Yes, in the sense of conflict and turmoil	S: Áno, v tom zmysle, konflikty a nepokoje.
50:41	K: All the messy stuff. S: And all the messy stuff, yes.	K: Všetky chaotické veci. S: A všetky chaotické veci, áno.
50:44	K: Now, that is absolutely necessary to find out more. Not more in the sense of something more, but that state is absolutely essential to discover the immeasurable or not.	Viem, že je absolútne nutné zisti viac. Nie viac v zmysle nieèo viac, ale v tom stave je absolútne nevyhnutné zisti , èi existuje nesmiernos alebo nie.
50:59	S: Yes. I think this is true. So that we do, in a sense, find seeing and loving and being, in being alone.	S: Áno. Myslím, že je to pravda. Aby sme, v istom zmysle našlli videnie a lásku a bytie v tom keï sme osamotený.
51:13	K: Yes, sir. You see…	A je to spojené s neporiadkom...
51:18	S: If one disassociates himself from disorder, he's…	K: Nie nieèia myse¾. Pri pozorovaní neporiadku, uvedomovaním
51:22	K: Not 'one mind.' In observing disorder, in being aware choicelessly of disorder, order comes. You don't belong to one or… there is order.	si neporiadku, nastáva poriadok. Nepatríte k jednému alebo k druhému ... je tam poriadok!
51:36	S: And as we pursue the question of the meaning of order, – or harmony, tranquillity or peace – we found ourselves with the same answer, but this is to be in the first place, this is to love in the first place, this is to see in the first place.	S: A ako sme sa zaoberali otázkou významu poriadku, - alebo harmónie, pokoja a mieru - ocitli sme sa pri rovnakej odpovedi, v prvom rade by , to je milova na prvom mieste. To je vidie na prvom mieste.
51:53	K: Order, sir, is one of the most extraordinary things because it's always new. It isn't order according to a pattern, it is a living thing. Virtue is a living thing. It isn't: 'I am virtuous'.	K: Poriadok pane, je jedna z najmimoriadnejších vecí pretože je vždy nový. Nie je to poriadok pod¾a vzoru, je to živá vec. Cnos je živá vec. To nie je: "Ja som cnostný".
52:11	S: Yes.	S: Áno.
52:12	K: You cannot ever say 'I am virtuous,' because if you say that you are not virtuous. But virtue is a living thing, moving, like a river flowing, alive. And therefore in that state something beyond measure takes place.	K: Nemôžete nikdy hovori "ja som cnostný" pretože ak to poviete, už nie ste cnostný. Ale cnos je živá vec, pohyb, teèie ako rieka teèie, žije. A preto...v tomto stave, je nieèo mimo, èo sa nedá zmera .
52:35	S: And it's at that moment that one discovers the immeasurable.	S: A v tej chvíli èlovek objaví nesmiernos .
52:38	K: Yes. S: Yes.	K: Áno.
52:40	K: You see, not discovers – it is there. It is there! S: Yes.	K: Viete, neobjavíte ju. - Je tam! Je tam! S: Áno.
52:45	K: 'Discovery' and 'experience' are rather unfortunate words, because most human beings want to experience something great because their lives are shoddy, their lives are petty, their lives are full of anxiety. They say, 'For God's sake, give me greater experience, something more'. Therefore these meditations, these groups forming who meditate and all that they are searching for that. Whereas they have to bring order in their life first. And then what takes place is something quite beyond measure. I think that's enough.	K: Viete "objavi " a "skúsenos " sú naneš astie len slová, pretože väèšina ¾udí chce zaži nieèo ve¾ké. Pretože ich životy sú také nudné, ich životy sú malicherné, ich životy sú plné úzkosti. Hovoria: Pane Bože, daj mi väèšie skúsenosti, nieèo viac! Preto existujú tieto meditácie, tieto skupiny, ktoré sa tvoria, ktoré meditujú a to všetko h¾adajú. Zatia¾èo majú v prvom rade prinies poriadok. A potom èo sa deje, je nieèo úplne mimo nesmiernosti. Myslím, že to staèí.
53:32	S: So then if we are pursuing the question of the measurelessness… if we are pursuing… K: You can't pursue it.	S: Takže ak sa naháòame za nieèím nesmiernym.. ak sledujeme ... K: Nemôžete sa za tým naháòa .
53:45	S: Well, and you can't discover it… K: You can't pursue it.	S: No, a nedá sa to objavi ... K: Nemôžete to realizova .
53:48	S: This is good. You cannot pursue it, you cannot discover it and it's not good to use the word 'experience' about it. All of this we understand. When one comes upon it...	S: To je dobré. Nemôžete to sledova , nemôžete to objavi a nie je dobré používa slovo "skúsenos ". To sme si prešli. A keï to èlovek nájde...
53:58	K: You leave the door open, sir.	K: Necháte dvere otvorené, pane.
54:00	S: You leave the door open.	S: Necháte dvere otvorené.
54:01	K: Let the sun come in. If the sun comes in, it's all right, if it doesn't, it's all right. S: Yes.	K: Nech slnko príde. A keï slnko príde, je to v poriadku. Ak nepríde, je to v poriadku. S: Áno.
54:07	K: Because the moment you pursue it you close the door.	K: Èím viac sa za tým naháòate, tým viac zatvárate dvere.
54:10	S: The very pursuit is the closing the door.	S: To isté h¾adanie je zatváranie dverí.
54:12	K: The very search for truth is the closing of truth, blocking truth.	K: To isté h¾adanie pravdy je zakrívanie pravdy. Zamkýnanie pravdy.
54:16	S: Yes. K: Right, that's enough.	S: Áno. K: Dobre, to staèí.