Krishnamurti - Giới thiệu loạt thảo luận 'Sự chuyển hóa con người'

Krishnamurti Subtitles

BR76CTM0 - Giới thiệu loạt thảo luận 'Sự chuyển hóa con người'

0:09	Q: Sir, we would like to know as much as we can about you... before we start these dialogues. Would you please tell us... where we are and who you are... and how you came to participate... with Mr. Krishnamurti in his teachings.	Q: Chúng tôi muốn biết nhiều nhất có thể về bạn trước khi bắt đầu nói chuyện. Bạn vui lòng cho biết chúng ta ở đâu và bạn là ai và làm sao bạn đến tham dự với Krishnamurti về giáo lý ngài.
0:28	B: We are here in Brockwood Park in Hampshire, England... I'm David Bohm, a professor of theoretical physics... in the University of London. As to how I came here to participate... I think it best to begin by saying a little about my work... that in my studies in theoretical physics... I've always been interested in what they are called... the deeper questions... the nature of time and space and matter... causality, what is behind it all, what is universal. And in general I found that... very few physicists shared this interest... although I pursued it as best I could. When we arrived in Bristol in 1957... there was a very good public library there... and my wife and I used to go and... we became interested in books on philosophy and religion... and we picked up a book by Mr. Krishnamurti... called First and Last Freedom, and I read that. I found it extremely interesting... especially because it discussed the observer and the observed. That is a question which is very significant... in theoretical physics and quantum theory... Heisenberg has brought it out with the effect of the observer... on the particle that is observed. Also many other questions were raised there... and I found the whole thing very interesting. I read as many books as I could find by Mr. Krishnamurti... then I wrote a letter to the publishers to ask where he is... and finally I was put in contact... with the Krishnamurti Foundation in England... and they said he was coming to talk... it was around 1960 or '61, I forget which... and so I arranged to come. Then while listening to the talks... I sent another letter to the Foundation... asking if I could talk personally... with Mr. Krishnamurti... and they arranged a time. So we met and we talked. I think at that time I told him about my ideas in physics... which he appreciated the spirit. And then every time after that, every year... when Krishnamurti came to London we arranged to meet... once or twice... Later I began to go to Saanen in Switzerland... and there we met more often. And finally, around '66 or '67 there was a plan... to make a school... in which Krishnamurti asked me to take part... and gradually the school... was organised here at Brockwood Park... and I have been coming regularly. I am a member, a Trustee of the Foundation... which is responsible for the school... and also come down to discuss with people... and take part generally. We have gone on discussing... the questions which you will see arising. So, that essentially explains how I got here.	B: Chúng tôi đang ở Brockwood Park, Hampshire, nước Anh tôi là David Bohm, giáo sư lý thuyết vật lý trường Đại học London. Về làm sao tôi đến tham dự tôi nghĩ tốt nhất bắt đầu nói chút ít về công việc trong nghiên cứu lý thuyết vật lý tôi luôn quan tâm điều người ta gọi là những vấn đề sâu bản chất thời gian và không gian và vật chất nguyên nhân, cái gì đàng sau nó, vũ trụ là gì. Và nhìn chung tôi thấy rằng rất ít nhà vật lý chia sẻ quan tâm này tuy vậy tôi theo đuổi nhiều nhất có thể. Khi chúng tôi đến Bristol năm 1957 ở đó có một thư viện rất tuyệt và tôi cùng vợ thường đến và trở nên quan tâm những sách triết học và tôn giáo và chúng tôi chọn cuốn của Krishnamurti Tự Do Đầu tiên và Cuối cùng, và tôi đọc. Tôi thấy vô cùng thích thú đặc biệt bởi nó bàn về người quan sát và vật quan sát. Đó là vấn đề rất có ý nghĩa trong lý thuyết vật lý và thuyết lượng tử Heisenberg đã đưa nó ra với hiệu quả về người quan sát trên hạt là vật bị quan sát. Cũng nhiều vấn đề khác được nêu lên và tôi thấy cả sự việc là rất thú vị. Tôi đọc nhiều sách có thể tìm được của Krishnamurti rồi viết thư cho nhà xuất bản hỏi ông ta ở đâu và cuối cùng tôi liên hệ với Hoc viện Krishnamurti ở Anh và họ nói ông đến nói chuyện khoảng năm 1960 hay 61, tôi quên mất và tôi xắp xếp để đến. Rồi khi nghe nói chuyện tôi viết thư cho Học viện hỏi xem tôi có thể nói chuyện riêng với Krishnamurti, và họ xếp thời gian. Vậy là chúng tôi gặp và nói chuyện. Tôi nghĩ lúc ấy tôi nói với ông về ý niệm vật lý mà ông rất cảm kích tinh thần. Và rồi mỗi lần sau đó, hàng năm khi Krishnamurti đến London chúng tôi xắp xếp gặp một hay hai lần... Sau đó tôi bắt đầu đến Saanen Thuỵ sĩ và ở đó chúng tôi gặp nhau nhiều hơn. Và cuối cùng, khoảng năm 66 hay 67 có kế hoạch xây trường học và Krishnamurti yêu cầu tôi tham gia và dần dần trường học được tổ chức ở Brockwood Park đây và tôi đến thường xuyên. Tôi là thành viên, Uỷ viên quản trị của Học viện trách nhiệm về trường học và cũng đến thảo luận với mọi người và tham dự chung. Chúng tôi tiếp tục thảo luận những vấn đề bạn sẽ thấy nêu ra. Vậy cơ bản đã giải thích làm sao tôi đến đây.
3:36	Q: Dr. Shainberg. We would like to know about you.	Q: Dr. Shainberg. Chúng tôi muốn biết về bạn.
3:41	S: I'm a practising psychiatrist in New York City. I first came to read and think about what Krishnamurti said...	S: Tôi là bác sĩ tâm thần thực hành ở New york City. Lần đầu tôi đọc và nghĩ về điều Krishnamurti nói
3:54	as early as 1949, '48, when I was about...	rất sớm vào năm 1948, 49, khi ấy tôi chừng
4:01	let's see how old was I? I was about 18 or 19 then. And through the influence of several... concatenations of events... I suppose the main one was my father... who was involved at that time with reading Mr. Krishnamurti. Then there was the fact that I was very interested... in Karen Horney's psychoanalytic theories... and then in Harold Kelman's theories... which had all been developing along the same lines. It seemed to me at that time even... that there was something there... that was of interest in the question... that the observer is the observed. What the meaning of it, or the feeling of it I can say... was only in a kind of intuitive awareness... that this seemed to be the direction... in which I wanted to move. Then I went to college, I went to medical school... I trained as a psychiatrist, I trained as a neurologist... I trained as a psychoanalyst. I had many different experiences. And all along I was reading Mr. Krishnamurti... and still thinking about it... still trying to understand the difference between... what he was saying and what Western psychiatry... or Western psychology was communicating. But it's only been in the last, I would say five to six years... that I have really begun to feel that… I've begun to understand how I can use it in my work. And most of that stimulus has come from meeting Dr. Bohm... who has moved my thinking along and I've come to feel... that specifically there is something... about the way we think in psychiatry... which is, that all the theories deal with fragmentation... and the relationships between fragmentation... and most of them do not have... any understanding of the holistic action... or the holism that gives birth to this fragmentation. So that very often it seemed to me, and it has seemed to me... that most of the theories that we have... analyse and break things down and break things into pieces... which collaborates with the very problems... that our patients present us with. And again, I feel very similar to what Dr. Bohm said... that we have never really gotten in, in psychiatry... and Mr. Krishnamurti's work... has begun to help me to understand it... that the relationship between the observer and the observed... in the very patient-doctor situation is very important... and that the very theories that we create... are part of our very problem... that the fragmented people that we are... the fragmented theories represent fragmentation... and then call that the thing that we have to treat. There seems to be a basic problem here... that I feel will come out in these dialogues... since I've talked with Mr. Krishnamurti many times... and that point the way to how we can get through... this problem of the fragmentation.	xem tôi bao nhiêu tuổi nào? Tôi khoảng 18, 19. Và qua ảnh hưởng của vài sự trùng hợp các sự kiện tôi giả sử điểm chính là cha tôi vào lúc ấy ông cũng quan tâm đọc Krishnamurti. Rồi có sự kiện là tôi rất thích lý thuyết phân tâm của Karen Horney và lý thuyết của Harold Kelman đều đang phát triển cùng một hướng. Với tôi hình như lúc ấy ngay cả rằng có gì ở đó rất thú vị trong vấn đề người quan sát là vật bị quan sát. Ý nghĩa nó là gì, hay cảm nhận tôi có thể nói chỉ là một loại ý thức trực giác rằng đó hình như là hướng mà tôi muốn đi. Rồi tôi đi học, tôi học trường y tôi học làm bác sĩ tâm thần, thần kinh học nhà phân tâm. Tôi có nhiều loại kinh nghiệm khác nhau. Và tôi vẫn đọc suốt Krishnamurti và vẫn suy nghĩ về nó vẫn cố gắng hiểu sự khác nhau giữa điều ông nói và điều mà tâm thần học phương Tây hay tâm lý học phương Tây truyền dạy. Nhưng chỉ gần đây, tôi muốn nói năm hay sáu năm tôi thực sự bắt đầu cảm thấy bắt đầu hiểu làm sao có thể dùng nó vào công việc. Và hầu hết kích thích ấy đến từ gặp gỡ Dr. Bohm người đi cùng suy nghĩ với tôi và tôi cảm thấy đặc biệt có điều gì về cách chúng tôi nghĩ trong tâm thần học nghĩa là, mọi lý thuyết chỉ quan tâm đến mảnh vụn và liên hệ giữa các mảnh vụn và hầu hết chúng không có thấu hiểu nào về hành động toàn thể hay tổng thể sinh ra mảnh vụn ấy. Vậy nên thường khi với tôi, và hình như với tôi đa số lý thuyết chúng ta có là phân tích và đập vỡ sự vật và bẻ ra từng mảnh nó cộng tác với chính vấn đề mà bịnh nhân bày ra cho chúng ta. Và nữa, tôi thấy rất giống với Dr. Bohm nói rằng chúng ta thực sự chưa hề vào tâm thần học và tác phẩm của Krishnamurti bắt đầu giúp chúng ta hiểu nó rằng liên hệ giữa người quan sát và vật bị quan sát trong chính vị trí bịnh nhân-bác sĩ là rất quan trọng và rằng những lý thuyết chúng ta tạo ra là một phần của vấn đề chúng ta rằng chúng ta là con người manh mún lý thuyết manh mún biểu hiện manh mún và rồi gọi là sự vật chúng ta phải đối đãi. Dường như có vấn đề cơ bản ở đây mà tôi cảm nó sẽ hiện ra trong đối thoại bởi tôi nói chuyện với Krishnamurti nhiều lần và nó chỉ ra cách nào chúng ta có thể xuyên thấu vấn đề về manh mún.
7:23	Q: Mr. Krishnamurti... How can the viewer best share in these dialogues? How can he gain the most from the experience?	Q: Krishnamurti... Làm sao người xem có thể chia sẻ đối thoại? Làm sao có thể đạt nhiều nhất từ kinh nghiệm?
7:36	K: I think it all depends how serious you are. How serious in the sense... how deeply you want to go into these questions... which is after all your life. We are not discussing theoretically... some abstract hypotheses... but we are dealing with actual... daily life of every human being... whether he lives in India, or here... or in America, or anywhere else. We are dealing with the actual facts... of fear, pleasure, sorrow, death... and if there is anything sacred in life. Because if we don't find something real... something that is true... life has very little meaning. So, if you are really serious... to go into this matter very carefully and... with care, with attention... then you can share a great deal. But you have to be serious, really serious. You have to do it right through your life... every day of your life... And if you're then… if you listen to it, listen with care, with attention... with a sense of affection, not agreeing or disagreeing... that anybody can do... but if you really care to find out how to live properly... what is right relationship between human beings... then you would share completely, I think... with all that we have discussed... or have a dialogue about these things in the last five days.	K: Tôi nghĩ tuỳ bạn nghiêm túc thế nào. Nghiêm túc trong nghĩa bao sâu bạn muốn tìm hiểu vấn đề tóm lại nó là đời bạn. Chúng ta không bàn về lý thuyết vài giả thuyết vô lý mà chúng ta quan tâm sống thực hàng ngày của mỗi người dù hắn sống ở Ấn độ, hay đây hay ở Mỹ, hay nơi nào khác. Chúng ta quan tâm sự kiện thực của sợ, vui, khổ, chết và có chăng điều thánh thiện trong đời. Bởi nếu không tìm ra điều gì thực điều gì đúng cuộc đời rất ít ý nghĩa. Vậy, nếu bạn nghiêm túc thực để tìm hiểu vấn đề này thật kỹ và với để ý, quan tâm bạn liền có thể chia sẻ rất nhiều. Nhưng bạn phải nghiêm túc, thực nghiêm túc. Bạn phải làm nó suốt đời mình mỗi ngày trong đời... Và nếu bạn nếu bạn nghe nó, nghe với để tâm, với chú ý với cảm giác yêu thương, không phải đồng ý hay không mà ai đó có thể làm nhưng nếu bạn thực quan tâm tìm ra làm sao sống đúng quan hệ đúng giữa người với người là gì rồi bạn chia sẻ trọn vẹn, tôi nghĩ với mọi điều chúng ta thảo luận hay những gì nói chuyện trong năm ngày qua.