Krishnamurti - Lối Sống Máy Móc Dẫn Đến Vô Trật Tự

Krishnamurti Subtitles

BR76CTM2 - Lối Sống Máy Móc Dẫn Đến Vô Trật Tự
Buổi Thảo Luận thứ nhì với Bohm và Shainberg
Brockwood Park, Anh Quốc
18 tháng Năm 1976

0:13	K: Do we go on where we left off yesterday? Or would you like to start something new?	K: Chúng ta tiếp tục chỗ hôm qua chứ? Hay bạn muốn bắt đầu điều gì mới?
0:22	B: I thought there was a point that wasn't entirely clear... when discussing yesterday. Which is that we rather accepted that... security, psychological security was wrong, was illusion... but in general I don't think we made it... very clear why it is a delusion. Most people feel that... psychological security is a real thing... and quite necessary and when it's disturbed... or when a person is frightened, or... sorrowful, or even so disturbed that... he might be psychologically disturbed and require treatment... he feels that psychological security... is necessary before he can even begin... to do anything. K: Yes, right.	B: Tôi nghĩ có điểm chưa hoàn toàn sáng tỏ khi thảo luận hôm qua. Là chúng ta chấp nhận rằng an toàn, an toàn tâm lý là sai, là ảo tưởng nhưng nói chung tôi nghĩ chúng ta chưa nói rõ tại sao là ảo tưởng. Đa số người thấy rằng an toàn tâm lý là điều gì thật và rất cần thiết và khi bị rối loạn hay khi một người sợ hãi, hay đau khổ, hay ngay cả quá rối loạn hắn có thể bị xáo trộn tâm lý và cần điều trị hắn cảm thấy an toàn tâm lý là cần thiết trước khi có thể bắt đầu làm việc gì. K: Vâng, đúng.
1:06	B: And I think that it isn't at all clear why one should say... that it's really... not as important as physical security.	B: Và tôi nghĩ rằng chưa thật rõ ràng tại sao nói nó thực sự không quan trọng như an toàn vật lý.
1:16	K: Yes. No, I think we have made it fairly clear, didn't we? but let's go into it. B: Yes.	K: Vâng. Không, tôi nghĩ chúng ta nói khá rõ, phải không? nhưng tìm hiểu đi. B: Vâng.
1:22	K: Is there really psychological security at all?	K: Thực sự có an toàn tâm lý chăng?
1:28	B: I don't think we discussed that fully last time.	B: Tôi nghĩ vừa qua chúng ta chưa bàn kỹ.
1:30	K: Of course. Nobody accepts that. But we are enquiring into it... going into the problem of it.	K: Dĩ nhiên. Không ai chấp nhận thế. Nhưng chúng ta tìm hiểu đi sâu vấn đề ấy.
1:39	S: But we said something even deeper I think yesterday. And that is that - at least as I was summarising for myself... and that is that we felt... - correct me if you think I'm wrong here... that conditioning... conditioning sets the stage... for the importance of psychological security... and that in turn creates insecurity. And it is the conditioning that creates... the psychological security as a focus? Would you agree with that?	S: Nhưng tôi nghĩ đã nói điều gì khá sâu hôm qua. Và đó là - ít ra là tôi tóm gọn cho chính tôi và chúng ta cảm thấy... - sửa dùm nếu ngài nghĩ tôi sai chỗ này rằng qui định qui định đặt sân khấu cho quan trọng về an toàn tâm lý và đến lượt nó tạo ra bất an. Và chính qui định tạo ra an toàn tâm lý như trọng điểm? Ngài đồng ý vậy không?
2:13	K: I think that we two mean something different.	K: Tôi nghĩ hai chúng ta ý khác nhau.
2:16	S: What do you mean?	S: Ý ngài là sao?
2:21	K: First of all, sir... we take it for granted that there is psychological security.	K: Trước hết chúng ta cho rằng có an toàn tâm lý...
2:30	S: OK. Well, we think that we can get it.	S: Phải. Chúng ta nghĩ có thể nắm nó.
2:34	K: We feel that there is. S: Right. That's right.	K: Chúng ta thấy nó có. S: Đúng. Đúng thế.
2:39	B: Yes, I think that if you told somebody who was feeling... very disturbed mentally that... there is no psychological security... he would just feel worse. K: Collapse. Of course.	B: Vâng, tôi nghĩ nếu ngài kể với ai đang cảm thấy quá rối loạn tinh thần là không có an toàn tâm lý hắn cảm thấy quá tệ. K: Sụp đổ. Dĩ nhiên.
2:49	S: Right.	S: Đúng.
2:50	K: We are talking of fairly sane, rational people.	K: Chúng ta nói về người lành mạnh, lý trí.
2:55	S: OK.	S: Phải.
2:56	K: We are questioning whether there is... any psychological security at all... permanency, stability... a sense of well-founded, deep-rooted... existence psychologically.	K: Chúng ta hỏi xem có chăng an toàn tâm lý bền vững, ổn định trong nghĩa đời sống tâm lý vững chắc, bám rễ sâu.
3:14	S: Maybe if we could say more... What would be psychological security?	S: Tôi có thể hỏi thêm... An toàn tâm lý là gì?
3:19	K: After all, I believe. I believe in something. It may be the most foolish belief...	K: Tóm lại, tôi tin. Tôi tin gì đó. Có thể là niềm tin ngốc nhất...
3:27	S: Right.	S: Đúng.
3:29	K: ...a neurotic belief. I believe in it.	K: ...niềm tin loạn thần kinh. Tôi tin nó.
3:32	S: Right.	S: Đúng.
3:34	K: And that gives you a tremendous... sense of existence, living, vitality, and stability.	K: Và nó cho bạn cảm giác bao la về hiện hữu, sống, sức sống, và ổn định.
3:42	B: I think you could think of two examples, one is that... if I could really believe that... after dying I would go to heaven... and be quite sure of it... then I could be very secure inwardly... no matter what happens. S: That would make you feel good.	B: Tôi nghĩ ngài có thể nghĩ về hai ví dụ, một là nếu tôi thực sự tin rằng sau khi chết tôi lên thiên đàng và chắc chắn về nó thì tôi rất an ổn bên trong dù việc gì xảy ra. S: Nó làm bạn cảm thấy tốt.
3:53	B: I'd say, I don't really have to worry, because it's all... a temporary trouble and then I am pretty sure that in time... it is all going to be very good. Do you see?	B: Tôi nói, tôi thực sự không cần lo lắng, bởi hư hỏng tạm thời và rồi tôi khá chắc chắn với thời gian mọi cái sẽ rất tốt. Ngài thấy không?
4:00	K: That's the whole Asiatic attitude, more or less.	K: Ít hay nhiều, đó là thái độ cả châu Á.
4:03	B: Or if I think I am a communist then I say... in time communism is going to solve everything and... we are going through a lot of troubles now... but, it's all going to be worthwhile and... it will work out, and in the end it will be all right.	B: Hay nếu nghĩ tôi là cộng sản tôi nói với thời gian cộng sản sẽ giải quyết mọi việc chúng ta đang trải qua nhiều rối loạn nhưng, mọi cái sẽ giá trị và sẽ phát triển, và cuối cùng mọi thứ sẽ tốt.
4:14	S: Right. B: If I could be sure of that... then I would say I feel very secure inside... even if conditions are hard.	S: Đúng. B: Nếu tôi chắc chắn thế tôi nói tôi thấy rất an ổn bên trong dù điều kiện khắc nghiệt.
4:22	S: OK. All right. K: So we are questioning... though one has these strong beliefs... which gives them a sense of security... permanency, whether there is such in reality, actuality...	S: Đúng. Được rồi. K: Vậy chúng ta hỏi dù bạn có niềm tin mạnh mẽ nó cho cảm giác an toàn bền vững, xem coi có thực tại, thực tế như thế...
4:40	S: It's not possible. The question is, is it possible? K: Is it possible?	S: Không thể. Vấn đề là, có thể không? K: Có thể không?
4:47	K: I may believe in god and that gives me a tremendous sense of... impermanency of this world... but at least there is permanency somewhere else.	K: Tôi có thể tin thần thánh và nó cho tôi cảm giác về vô thường của thế gian nhưng ít ra có thường hằng ở đâu đó.
5:00	S: Yes. But I want to ask David something. Do you think that... for instance, take a scientist, a guy... who is going to his laboratory everyday... or take a doctor, he is getting security. He takes security from... the very 'routinization' of his life.	S: Vâng. Nhưng tôi muốn hỏi David một việc. Anh có nghĩ ví dụ, lấy nhà khoa học, anh đến phòng thí nghiệm hàng ngày hay một bác sĩ, anh ta có an toàn. Anh ta nắm an toàn từ chính 'lối mòn hoá' đời mình.
5:20	K: From his knowledge.	K: Từ kiến thức.
5:21	S: Yes, from his knowledge. If he keeps doing this, he feels… In the scientist, where does he get security?	S: Vâng, từ kiến thức. Nếu tiếp tục làm, hắn thấy... Trong khoa học, chỗ nào hắn được an toàn?
5:28	B: He makes believe he is learning the permanent laws of nature... and really getting something that means something. Also getting a position... in society and being sure, being well known... and respected and financially secure.	B: Hắn tin hắn học luật thường hằng của thiên nhiên và thực sự đạt điều có nghĩa gì đó. Cũng đạt được địa vị trong xã hội và an ổn, có danh và được nể vì và an toàn tiền bạc.
5:45	S: He believes that these things will give him the thing. The mother believes that the child will give her security.	S: Hắn tin mấy việc đó sẽ cho hắn điều quan trọng. Bà mẹ tin rằng con cái sẽ cho bà an ổn.
5:53	K: Don't you psychologically have security?	K: Bạn không có an ổn tâm lý sao?
5:57	S: Yes, OK. Right. That's a good point. I get a security out of my knowledge... out of my routine, out of my patients... out of seeing my patients, out of my position.	S: Vâng, à. Đúng. Điểm hay đó. Tôi có an toàn từ kiến thức từ lối mòn, từ bịnh nhân từ khám bịnh nhân, từ địa vị.
6:09	B: But there is conflict in that... because if I think it over a little bit... I doubt it, I question it. I say, it doesn't look all that secure... anything may happen. There may be a war, there may be... a depression, there may be a flood.	B: Nhưng có xung đột trong đó bởi nếu tôi nghĩ lại đôi chút tôi nghi ngờ, tôi hỏi. Tôi nói, mọi cái không có vẻ an toàn điều gì có thể xảy ra. Có thể chiến tranh, có thể sụp đất, có thể nước lũ.
6:23	K: There may be sane people all of a sudden in the world! (Laughter)	K: Có thể mọi người trên đời hốt nhiên lành mạnh! (Cười)
6:27	S: Do you think there is a chance?	S: Ngài nghĩ có cơ hội sao?
6:32	B: So I say there is conflict... and confusion in my security because I am not sure about it.	B: Nên tôi nói có xung đột và rối loạn trong an toàn bởi tôi không chắc gì cả.
6:39	S: You are not sure about it.	S: Anh không chắc gì hết.
6:40	B: But if I had an absolute belief in god and heaven...	B: Nhưng nếu tôi quá tin vào thần thánh hay thiên đàng...
6:45	K: This is so obvious.	K: Hiển nhiên vậy.
6:47	S: It's obvious. I agree with you... but I think it has to be... in other words, it has to be really felt through.	S: Hiển nhiên. Tôi đồng ý nhưng tôi nghĩ nó phải nói cách khác, nó phải thực sự được thấy hết.
6:53	K: Sir, you, Dr. Shainberg, you are the victim.	K: Bạn, Dr. Shainberg, bạn là nạn nhân.
6:58	S: I'll be the victim.	S: Tôi sẽ là nạn nhân.
6:59	K: For the moment. Don't you have strong belief?	K: Lúc này. Bạn không có niềm tin mạnh mẽ?
7:03	S: Right. Well, I wouldn't say...	S: Đúng. À, tôi không nói...
7:05	K: Don't you have a sense of... permanency somewhere inside you?	K: Bạn không có cảm giác thường hằng đâu đó trong bạn ư?
7:10	S: I think I do. K: Psychologically?	S: Tôi nghĩ tôi có. K: Tâm lý?
7:12	S: Yes, I do. I have a sense of permanency about my intention.	S: Vâng, có. Tôi có cảm giác thường hằng về ý định tôi.
7:17	K: Intention, your knowledge. S: My work. My knowledge...	K: Ý định, kiến thức. S: Nghề tôi. Kiến thức tôi...
7:22	K: ...status.	K: ...thân thế.
7:23	S: ...my status, the continuity of my interest. You know what I mean?	S: ...thân thế, sự liên tục của lợi lộc. Ngài biết ý tôi.
7:30	K: Yes.	K: Vâng.
7:33	S: There is a sense of security... in the feeling that I can help someone.	S: Có cảm giác an toàn cảm giác là tôi có thể giúp ai đó.
7:36	K: Yes. S: And I can do my work. OK?	K: Vâng. S: Và có thể hành nghề. Phải không?
7:40	K: That gives you security, psychological security.	K: Nó cho bạn an toàn, an toàn tâm lý.
7:42	S: There is something about it that is secure. What am I saying when I say 'security'? I am saying that I won't be lonely.	S: Có điều gì về nó là an toàn. Tôi đang nói gì khi nói 'an toàn'? tôi nói tôi sẽ không cô đơn.
7:50	K: No, no. Feeling secure... that you have something that is imperishable.	K: Không. Cảm thấy an toàn rằng bạn có điều gì không thể hư.
7:56	S: Which means... - No, I don't feel it that way. I feel it more in the sense of... what is going to happen in time... am I going to have to depend on... what is my time going to be, am I going... to be lonely, is it going to be empty?	S: Nghĩa là... - Không, tôi không cảm thấy thế. Tôi cảm thấy nhiều hơn, nghĩa là điều sẽ xảy ra trong thời gian tôi sẽ phải lệ thuộc vào điều mà thời cơ tôi sẽ là, tôi sẽ cô đơn, nó sẽ trống rỗng?
8:12	K: No, sir. S: Isn't that security?	K: Không. S: Không phải an toàn à?
8:14	K: As Dr. Bohm pointed out... if one has a strong belief in reincarnation... as the whole Asiatic world has... then it doesn't matter what happens... in the next life you have a better chance. You might be miserable this life but next life you will be happier. That gives you a great sense of... 'this is unimportant, but that is important'.	K: Như Dr. Bohm nói nếu bạn tin mạnh mẽ vào tái sinh như cả Á châu tin rồi bất kể điều gì xảy ra kiếp tới bạn sẽ có cơ hội tốt hơn. Chắc kiếp này khổ sở nhưng kiếp tới bạn sẽ hạnh phúc hơn. Nó cho bạn cảm giác lớn lao về 'việc này thường thôi, kia mới quan trọng'.
8:41	S: Right.	S: Đúng.
8:43	K: And that gives me a sense of great comfort... as though, 'Well, this is a transient world anyhow... and eventually I'll get there, to something permanent'. This is human...	K: Và nó cho tôi cảm giác rất dễ chịu... như là, 'À, thế gian tuy là cõi tạm và dần dà tôi sẽ đạt trên kia, gì đó thường hằng'. Đây là người...
9:00	S: This is in the Asiatic world... but I think in the western world you don't have that.	S: Đây là thế giới Á châu nhưng tôi nghĩ thế giới phương Tây ngài không có nó.
9:04	K: Oh, yes you have it. S: With a different focus.	K: Ồ, vâng bạn có đó. S: Với trọng điểm khác.
9:06	K: Of course.	K: Dĩ nhiên.
9:08	B: It's different but you've always had the search for security.	B: Khác đó, nhưng bạn luôn tìm kiếm an toàn.
9:10	S: Right, right. But what do you think security is? you became a scientist, you went to the laboratory... you picked up the books all the time. Right? You never went to the laboratory... but you have had your own laboratory. What the hell do you call security?	S: Đúng, đúng. Nhưng bạn nghĩ an toàn là gì? bạn thành nhà khoa học, đến phòng thí nghiệm bạn luôn chọn sách vở. Phải không? Bạn không hề đến phòng thí nghiệm nhưng bạn có phòng thí nghiệm riêng. Bạn gọi an toàn là cái quái gì?
9:26	K: Security?	K: An toàn?
9:28	S: Yes, but what does he call his security? Knowledge?	S: Vâng, nhưng hắn gọi an toàn là gì? Kiến thức?
9:33	K: Having something... to which you can cling to and which is not perishable. It may perish eventually but at the time... for the time being it is there to hold on to.	K: Có gì đó mà bạn có thể bám vào và nó không thể hư. Nó có thể hư dần nhưng lúc này lúc này nó có đó để bám vào.
9:46	B: You can feel that it's permanent. In the past, people used to accumulate gold... because gold is the symbol of the imperishable, they could feel.	B: Bạn có thể thấy nó thường hằng. Ngày xưa, người ta thường tích luỹ vàng bởi vàng là biểu tượng không thể hư, họ cảm thấy thế.
9:54	S: We still have people who accumulate gold... we have business men, they have got money.	S: Chúng ta vẫn có người tích luỹ vàng chúng ta có doanh nhân, họ có tiền.
9:58	B: You feel it's really there. K: There.	B: Bạn thấy nó thực sự ở đó. K: Ở đó.
10:01	B: It will never corrode, it will never vanish... and you can count on it.	B: Nó không bao giờ hư, không hề tan mất và bạn có thể tin cậy.
10:08	S: So it's something that I can count on.	S: Vậy là điều gì bạn có thể tin cậy.
10:11	K: Count on, hold on to, cling to, be attached to.	K: Tin cậy, bám, nắm vào, dính vào.
10:15	S: Believe in, the 'me'. K: Exactly. I know that I am a doctor. I can depend on that.	S: Tin vào, cái 'tôi'. K: Đúng. Tôi biết tôi là bác sĩ. Tôi có thể lệ thuộc nó.
10:24	K: Knowledge, experience. S: Experience.	K: Kiến thức, kinh nghiệm. S: Kinh nghiệm.
10:28	K: And on the other hand, tradition.	K: Và mặt khác, truyền thống.
10:30	S: Tradition. I know that if I do this... with a patient that I will get this result. I might not get any good results but I'll get this result.	S: Truyền thống. Tôi biết nếu làm cái này cho bịnh nhân tôi sẽ đạt cái nọ. Không chắc kết quả tốt, nhưng sẽ có kết quả đó.
10:38	K: So I think that is fairly clear.	K: Nên tôi nghĩ vậy là khá rõ.
10:41	B: Yes, it's clear enough that we have that... that it's part of our society.	B: Vâng, khá rõ là chúng ta có nó nó là một phần của xã hội.
10:45	K: Part of our conditioning. B: We want... something secure and permanent. At least we think so.	K: Một phần của qui định. B: Chúng ta muốn an toàn và bền vững. Ít ra chúng ta nghĩ thế.
10:55	S: I think that Krishnaji's point about the Eastern world... there is, I think, a feeling in the West of wanting immortality.	S: Tôi nghĩ quan điểm Krishnaji về thế giới phương Đông tôi nghĩ, có cảm giác phương Tây muốn bất tử.
11:03	K: That's the same. S: Same thing.	K: Cũng thế. S: Cũng vậy.
11:06	B: Wouldn't you say that in so far as... thought can project time that it wants... to be able to project everything... all right in the future as far as possible.	B: Trước giờ ngài không nói rằng ý nghĩ có thể định thời gian mà nó muốn có thể dự định mọi việc tốt đẹp cho tương lai càng xa càng tốt.
11:14	S: That's what I meant when I said loneliness: if I don't have to have my loneliness...	S: Đó là ý tôi khi tôi nói cô đơn: nếu tôi không cần có cô đơn...
11:18	B: In other words the anticipation of what is coming... is already the present feeling. If you can anticipate... that something bad may come, you already feel bad.	B: Nói cách khác dự đoán điều sẽ đến đã là cảm giác hiện tại. Nếu bạn có thể dự đoán điều xấu có thể xảy đến, bạn đã thấy xấu.
11:28	K: That's right.	K: Đúng thế.
11:29	B: Therefore you would like to get rid of that.	B: Vì vậy bạn muốn gạt nó ra.
11:31	S: So you anticipate that it won't happen.	S: Vậy bạn mong là nó sẽ không đến.
11:33	B: That it will all be good. S: Right.	B: Rằng nó sẽ tốt. S: Đúng.
11:35	B: I would say that security would be the anticipation... that everything will be good in the future.	B: Tôi nói rằng an toàn là dự đoán rằng mọi việc sẽ tốt trong tương lai.
11:39	K: Good. Everything will be all right.	K: Tốt. Mọi việc sẽ tốt.
11:41	S: It will continue. B: It will become better. If it is not so good now it will become better with certainty.	S: Nó sẽ tiếp tục. B: Sẽ trở nên tốt hơn. Nếu nó hiện không tốt, chắc chắn nó sẽ tốt hơn.
11:46	S: So then security is becoming?	S: Vậy an toàn là trở thành?
11:50	K: Yes, becoming, perfecting...	K: Vâng, trở thành, hoàn thiện...
11:54	S: I was thinking what you were saying the other day... about the Brahmin. Anybody can become a Brahmin, then that gives him security.	S: Tôi đã nghĩ điều ngài nói hôm nọ về Bà la môn. Ai đó có thể thành Bà la môn, thì nó cho hắn an toàn.
12:03	K: That is, a projected belief... a projected idea, a comforting satisfying concept.	K: Tức là, niềm tin dự trù ý niệm hoạch định, quan niệm thoả mãn dễ chịu.
12:16	S: Right. I see patients all the time. Their projected belief is... 'I will become - I will find somebody... to love me'. I see patients who say... 'I will become the chief of the department... I will become the most famous doctor one day, I will become...' and his whole life goes like that. Because it is also all focused on being... the best tennis player, the best... K: Of course, of course.	S: Đúng. Tôi thường thăm bịnh nhân. Niềm tin dự định của họ là 'Tôi sẽ thành - tôi sẽ tìm ai đó yêu tôi'. Tôi thấy bịnh nhân nói 'Tôi sẽ trở thành xếp của sở rồi tôi sẽ thành bác sĩ nổi danh nhất, tôi sẽ thành...' và cả đời hắn sống như thế. Bởi cũng đều tập trung vào là chơi quần vợt hạng nhất, số một... K: Dĩ nhiên, dĩ nhiên.
12:42	B: It seems it's all focused on anticipating that life is going... to be good, would you say that? K: Yes, life is going to be good.	B: Hình như đều tập trung vào dự đoán cuộc sống sẽ tốt đẹp, ngài nói thế? K: Vâng, cuộc sống sẽ tốt đẹp.
12:50	B: It seems to me, you wouldn't raise the question... unless you had a lot of experience that life is not so good. It's a reaction to having had so much experience... of disappointment, of suffering.	B: Có vẻ như, bạn sẽ không đưa ra vấn đề trừ khi bạn có nhiều kinh nghiệm là đời sống không tốt. Nó là phản ứng với có nhiều kinh nghiệm về thất vọng, đau khổ.
13:04	K: Would you say that we are not... conscious of the whole movement of thought?	K: Bạn nói rằng chúng ta không ý thức hết chuyển động của ý nghĩ?
13:13	B: No, I mean, I think that most people would say... that is only very natural, I have had... a lot of experience of suffering... and disappointment and danger, and that is unpleasant and... I would like to be able to anticipate... that everything is going to be good.	B: Không, tôi nói, tôi nghĩ rằng mọi người nói nó rất tự nhiên, tôi đã có nhiều kinh nghiệm đau khổ thất vọng và nguy hiểm, và nó không dễ chịu và tôi muốn có thể dự đoán rằng mọi việc sẽ tốt.
13:29	K: Yes.	K: Vâng.
13:32	B: At first sight it would seem that that is really quite natural. But you are saying it is not now... there is something deeply wrong with it.	B: Thoạt nhìn có vẻ nó thực sự rất tự nhiên. Nhưng bạn nói hiện nó không có gì đó rất sai lầm với nó.
13:39	K: We are saying there is no such thing as psychological security. We have defined what we mean by security.	K: Chúng ta nói không có cái gì như an toàn tâm lý. Chúng ta định nghĩa an toàn là gì.
13:47	S: Yes.	S: Vâng.
13:47	K: We don't have to beat it over and over.	K: Chúng ta không cần gõ đi gõ lại.
13:49	S: No, I think we have got that. B: Yes, but is it clear now... that, you see, these hopes are really vain hopes... that should be obvious, shouldn't it?	S: Không, tôi nghĩ chúng ta có nó. B: Vâng, nhưng chưa rõ là, bạn xem, hy vọng này thực là hy vọng hão nó hiển nhiên, phải không?
13:56	S: That is a good question. You mean is it... Krishnaji, he is raising... a good question, it is this whole business of you saying... is it meaningful to look for security. Is there such a thing?	S: Vấn đề hay. Ý anh là Krishnaji, anh ta đưa câu hỏi hay, nó chính là toàn bộ vấn đề ngài nói tìm kiếm an toàn có ý nghĩa gì không. Có việc ấy không?
14:09	K: Sir, there is death at the end of everything.	K: Có cái chết ở cuối mọi việc.
14:12	B: Yes.	B: Vâng.
14:15	K: You want to be secure... for the next ten years, that is all, or fifty years. Afterwards it doesn't matter. Or if it does matter then you believe in something. That there is god... you will sit next to god on his right hand... or whatever it is you believe. So I am trying to find out... not only that there is no permanency psychologically... which means no tomorrow psychologically.	K: Bạn muốn an toàn cho mười năm tới, xong, hay năm năm. Sau đó thì không hề gì. Hay nếu có gì thì bạn tin vào gì khác. Rằng có thượng đế bạn sẽ ngồi bên tay phải thượng đế hay gì gì bạn tin. Vậy tôi cố gắng tìm ra không chỉ là không có thường hằng tâm lý nghĩa là không có ngày mai tâm lý.
14:45	B: That hasn't yet come out. K: Of course, of course.	B: Nó chưa xuất hiện. K: Dĩ nhiên, dĩ nhiên.
14:49	B: We can say empirically... we know these hopes for security are false... because first of all you say there is death, secondly... you can't count on anything, materially everything changes.	B: Có thể nói theo kinh nghiệm chúng ta biết hy vọng an toàn là sai bởi trước hết ngài nói có cái chết, thứ hai không tin cậy điều gì, về vật chất mọi việc thay đổi.
15:00	K: Everything is in flux.	K: Mọi việc trong dòng chảy.
15:02	B: Mentally everything in your head... is changing all the time. You can't count on your feelings... you can't count on... enjoying a certain thing that you enjoy now... you can't count on being healthy, you can't count on money.	B: Về tinh thần mọi việc trong đầu luôn thay đổi. Bạn không thể dựa vào cảm giác bạn không thể tin cậy an hưởng điều gì bạn đang thụ hưởng bạn không thể tin cậy vào sức khoẻ, tiền bạc.
15:16	K: And you can't rely on your wife, you can rely on nothing.	K: Và không thể tin cậy vợ, không thể tin cậy gì hết.
15:20	S: Right. B: So that is a fact. But I am saying that you are suggesting something deeper.	S: Đúng. B: Vậy đó là sự kiện. Nhưng tôi nói ngài gợi ý điều gì sâu hơn.
15:24	K: Yes.	K: Vâng.
15:26	B: We don't base ourselves only on that observation.	B: Chúng ta không chỉ dựa vào quan sát ấy.
15:28	K: No, that is very superficial.	K: Không, nó rất hời hợt.
15:31	S: Yes, I am with you there.	S: Vâng, đồng ý chỗ đó.
15:36	K: So if there is no real security, basic, deep... then is there a tomorrow, psychologically? And then you take away all hope. If there is no tomorrow you take away all hope.	K: Vậy nếu không có an toàn thực, cơ bản sâu, thì có chăng ngày mai tâm lý? Và rồi bạn bỏ đi mọi hy vọng. Nếu không có ngày mai, bạn bỏ mọi hy vọng.
16:00	B: What you mean by tomorrow, is the tomorrow... in which things will get better?	B: Ý ngài ngày mai là gì, mai là sẽ đạt điều gì tốt hơn?
16:05	K: Better, greater success, greater understanding, greater...	K: Tốt hơn, thành công lớn hơn, hiểu nhiều hơn, to hơn...
16:12	B: More love.	B: Yêu thương hơn.
16:13	K: ...more love, you know, the whole business.	K: ...yêu thương hơn, bạn biết đó, mọi việc.
16:18	S: That is a little quick, that jump. I think that there is a jump there... because as I hear you, I hear you saying there is no security.	S: Vậy hơi nhanh, nhảy vọt. Tôi nghĩ có nhảy vọt đó bởi khi tôi nghe ngài, tôi nghe ngài nói có an toàn.
16:33	K: But it is so. S: It is so. But for me to say, to really say... 'Look, I know there is no security'.	K: Nhưng nó vậy. S: Nó là vậy. Nhưng với tôi mà nói, nói thực... 'Này, tôi biết không có an toàn'.
16:43	K: Why don't you say that?	K: Tại sao bạn không nói?
16:45	S: That is what I am getting at. Why don't I say that?	S: Tôi hiểu vậy đó. Tại sao tôi không nói thế.
16:48	B: Well, isn't it first of all a fact that... just an observed fact that there isn't... anything you can count on psychologically?	B: À, trước hết, không phải sự kiện là chính sự kiện được quan sát là không có gì bạn có thể dựa về tâm lý?
16:57	S: Right. But you see, I think there is an action there. Krishnaji is saying 'why don't you?'. Why don't you say there is no security? Why don't I?	S: Đúng. Nhưng bạn xem, tôi nghĩ có hành động ở đó. Krishnaji hỏi 'Tại sao bạn không?'. Tại sao bạn không nói không có an toàn? Sao tôi không?
17:12	K: Can I? May I? Do you rationalise what we are saying about security? Say 'yes', as an idea. Or actually so?	K: Tôi có thể? Có thể? Bạn lý giải gì điều chúng ta nói về an toàn? Nói 'vâng', như ý niệm. Hay thực vậy?
17:32	S: I actually say it is so, but then I say... I'll keep doing it, I'll keep doing it.	S: Tôi nói nó vậy, nhưng rồi tôi nói tôi sẽ tiếp tục, sẽ tiếp tục làm.
17:37	K: No, no. We are asking... when you hear there is no security... is it an abstract idea? Or an actual fact, like that table... like your hand there, or those flowers?	K: Không, không. Chúng ta hỏi khi bạn nghe không có an toàn nó là ý niệm trừu tượng? Hay sự kiện thực, như chiếc bàn như bàn tay bạn, hay đóa hoa kia?
17:57	S: I think it mostly becomes an idea. K: That's just it.	S: Tôi nghĩ nó hầu như thành ý niệm. K: Đúng vậy.
18:00	B: Why should it become an idea? K: That's it. Why?	B: Tại sao nó thành ý niệm? K: Đúng. Tại sao?
18:03	S: That I think is the question, why does it become an idea?	S: Tôi nghĩ đó là vấn đề, tại sao nó thành ý niệm?
18:08	K: Is it part of your training?	K: Là một phần của rèn luyện?
18:11	S: Yes. Part of my conditioning.	S: Vâng. Một phần của qui định.
18:13	K: Part of a real objection to see things as they are.	K: Phần chống đối để nhìn vật y vậy.
18:19	S: That's right. Because it moves. It feels like it moves there. Do you feel that?	S: Đúng thế. Bởi nó chuyển động. Thấy như nó di động. Bạn có thấy vậy?
18:27	B: It seems that if you see that there is no security... then the self, I mean, it seems... Fist of all, let us try to put it that... there is something which seems to be there... which is trying to protect itself, namely let us say that... it seems to be a fact that the self is there. Do you see what I am driving at?	B: Hình như nếu bạn thấy không có an toàn thì cái ngã, tôi nói, hình như... Trước hết, hãy cố nói rằng có điều gì hình như ở đó đang cố gắng tự bảo vệ, đó là ví dụ dường như có sự kiện là cái ngã ở đó. Ngài có hiểu ý tôi không?
18:49	K: Of course.	K: Dĩ nhiên.
18:50	B: And if the self is there it requires security... and therefore this creates a resistance... to accepting that as a fact and puts it as an idea only. If you see what I mean. It seems that... the factuality of the self being there... has not been denied. The apparent factuality.	B: Và nếu cái ngã ở đó nó đòi hỏi an toàn và vì vậy nó gây ra chống đối việc chấp nhận sự kiện và nói nó chỉ như ý niệm. Nếu bạn hiểu ý tôi. Hình như là thực tế về cái ngã ở đó là không chối cãi. Thực tế rõ ràng.
19:13	S: Right. But why hasn't it? Why do you think it hasn't been? What happens?	S: Đúng. Nhưng tại sao không? Tại sao bạn nghĩ nó không? Điều gì xảy ra?
19:20	K: Is it that you refuse to see things as they are? Is it that one refuses to see... that one is stupid? Not you, I mean, one is stupid. To acknowledge that one is stupid is already - you follow?	K: Phải chăng bạn từ chối nhìn vật y vậy? Phải chăng từ chối nhìn thấy mình ngu ngốc? Không phải bạn, ý tôi, ai đó ngu. Xác nhận rằng mình ngu, là đã - kịp không?
19:39	S: Yes, yes. It's like, you say to me... 'You refuse to acknowledge... that you are stupid' - let us say it is me... - that means then than I have got... to do something, it feels like. K: No.	S: Vâng, vâng. Như ngài nói với tôi... 'Bạn từ chối nhận là mình ngu ngốc' - ví dụ là tôi đi - nghĩa là còn hơn tôi phải làm gì đó, có vẻ vậy. K: Không.
19:52	S: Something happens to me.	S: Điều gì xảy đến với tôi.
19:54	K: Not yet. Action comes through perception... not through ideation.	K: Chưa. Hành động đến qua nhận thức chứ không qua ý niệm.
20:03	S: I'm glad you are getting into this.	S: Tôi rất vui mừng ngài vào việc này.
20:08	B: Doesn't it seem that as long as there is the sense of self... the self must say that it is perfect, eternal. Do you see?	B: Không phải hình như hễ còn cảm giác của ngã ngã phải nói nó hoàn hảo, vĩnh cửu? Ngài thấy không?
20:15	K: Of course, of course.	K: Dĩ nhiên, dĩ nhiên.
20:18	S: What do you think it is? What makes it so hard to say... Is this what you mean... when you talk about the destruction in creation?	S: Ngài nghĩ nó là gì? Cái gì làm khó nói... Đây là ý ngài khi ngài nói sự phá huỷ trong sáng tạo?
20:26	K: Yes.	K: Vâng.
20:27	S: In other words, is there something here... about the destruction that I am not.	S: Nói cách khác, có điều gì ở đây về phá huỷ mà tôi thì không.
20:31	K: You must destroy that.	K: Bạn phải phá huỷ nó.
20:33	S: I must destroy that. Now what makes it hard for me to destroy? I mean, destroy this need for security, why can't I do it?	S: Tôi phải phá huỷ nó. Điều gì làm tôi khó phá huỷ nó? Ý là, phá huỷ cần cho an toàn, sao tôi không thể làm?
20:42	K: No, no. It is not how you can do it. You see, you are already entering... into the realm of action.	K: Không. Không phải cách nào có thể. Bạn xem, bạn đã bước vào lĩnh vực của hành động.
20:48	S: That I think is the crucial point.	S: Tôi nghĩ đó là điểm mấu chốt.
20:50	K: But I am not. I say first see it. And from that perception, action is inevitable.	K: Nhưng tôi thì không. Tôi nói thấy trước. Và từ nhận thức, hành động là dĩ nhiên.
21:01	S: Yes. It's crucial. All right, now. To see insecurity. Do you see insecurity? Do you actually see it?	S: Vâng. Cơ bản. Tốt rồi. Thấy bất an. Bạn có thấy bất an? Bạn có thực thấy nó?
21:16	K: What?	K: Gì nào?
21:17	S: Insecurity. K: Ah, no. Do you actually see...	S: Bất an. K: À, không. Bạn có thực thấy...
21:24	S: ...there is no security.	S: ...không có an toàn.
21:26	K: No, that you are clinging to something... belief and all the rest of it... which gives you security. S: OK.	K: Không, bạn bám vào điều gì niềm tin, v.v.. nó cho bạn an toàn. S: Đúng.
21:39	K: I cling to this house. I am safe. It gives me a sense of 'my house, my father'... it gives me pride, it gives me a sense of possession... it gives me a sense of physical... and therefore psychological security.	K: Bám vào ngôi nhà này. Tôi an ổn. Nó cho tôi cảm giác về 'nhà tôi, cha tôi' nó cho tôi tự hào, nó cho tôi cảm giác sở hữu nó cho tôi cảm giác an toàn vật chất và rồi tâm lý.
22:00	S: Right, and a place to go.	S: Đúng, và một nơi để đến.
22:02	K: A place to go. But I may walk out and be killed... and I have lost everything. There might be an earthquake and everything is gone. Do you actually see it?	K: Nơi để đến. Nhưng tôi có thể bước ra và bị giết và tôi mất hết. Có thể có động đất và mọi việc ra đi. Bạn có thực thấy thế?
22:26	S: I actually...	S: Tôi thực...
22:32	K: Sir, go to a poor man. He says, of course... I have no security, but he wants it. He says, 'Well, give me a good job, beer, and constant work... and a house, and a good wife and children; that's my security'.	K: Đến với người nghèo. Hắn nói, dĩ nhiên tôi không có an toàn, nhưng hắn muốn nó. Hắn nói, 'À, cho tôi công việc tốt, bia, và việc ổn định và ngôi nhà, và vợ đẹp con xinh; an toàn tôi đó'.
22:54	S: Right.	S: Đúng.
22:56	K: When there is a strike, he feels lost. But he has got the Union behind him.	K: Khi có đình công, hắn thấy mất hết. Nhưng hắn có Liên đoàn đàng sau.
23:02	S: Right. But he thinks he is secure.	S: Đúng. Nhưng hắn nghĩ hắn an toàn.
23:05	K: Secure. And that movement of security... enters into the psychological field. My wife, I believe in god, I don't believe in god. If I am a good communist... I will have a good - you follow? The whole thing. Do you see it? You see, the seeing, or the perception of that... is total action with regard to security.	K: An toàn. Và chuyển động của an toàn len vào lĩnh vực tâm lý. Vợ tôi, tôi tin thượng đế, tôi không tin thượng đế. Nếu tôi là cộng sản tốt tôi sẽ có cái tốt - kịp không? Mọi việc. Bạn có thấy vậy? Bạn xem, thấy, hay nhận thức về nó là hành động trọn vẹn liên quan đến an toàn.
23:41	S: I can see that that is the total action.	S: Tôi có thể thấy đó là hành động hoàn toàn.
23:44	K: No, that's an idea still.	K: Không, đó vẫn là ý niệm.
23:46	S: Yes, you're right. I begin to see that... this belief, this whole structure... begins to be the whole way that I see everything in the world. I begin to see her, the wife, or I begin to see these people... they fit into that structure.	S: Vâng, ngài đúng. Tôi bắt đầu thấy niềm tin này, cả cấu trúc này bắt đầu là toàn bộ cách mà tôi nhìn mọi vật trên đời. Tôi bắt đầu thấy cô ta, vợ, hay bắt đầu thấy mọi người họ làm cho vừa với cấu trúc.
24:18	K: You see them, your wife, through the image you have about them.	K: Bạn nhìn họ, vợ, qua hình ảnh bạn có về họ.
24:24	S: Right. And to the function they are serving.	S: Đúng. Và theo chức năng họ phục vụ.
24:26	B: Their relation to me, yes. K: Yes.	B: Liên hệ họ với tôi, vâng. K: Vâng.
24:29	S: That's right. That's the function they serve.	S: Đúng thế. Đó là chức năng họ phục vụ.
24:33	K: The picture, the image, the conclusion is the security.	K: Bức họa, hình ảnh, kết luận là an toàn.
24:37	S: That's right.	S: Đúng vậy.
24:39	B: Yes, but you see, why does it present itself as so real? You see, there is a... I see that as a thought... a process of thought which is driving on, continually.	B: Vâng, nhưng ngài xem, tại sao nó tự hiện ra quá thực? Ngài xem, có... Tôi thấy nó như ý nghĩ tiến trình suy nghĩ lôi kéo, tiếp nối.
24:52	K: Are you asking... Why has this image, this conclusion, this... all the rest of it, become so fantastically real?	K: Bạn hỏi... Tại sao hình ảnh này, kết luận này v.v.., trở nên thực một cách lạ lùng?
25:01	B: Yes. It seems to be standing there real... and everything is referred to it.	B: Vâng. Dường như nó đứng đó thực và mọi việc dựa vào nó.
25:06	K: More real than the marbles, than the hills.	K: Thực hơn đá cẩm thạch, hơn ngọn đồi.
25:09	B: Than anything, yes. S: More real than anything.	B: Hơn mọi việc, vâng. S: Thực hơn mọi việc.
25:11	K: Why?	K: Tại sao?
25:21	S: I think it is hard to say why... except that it seems to... because it would give me security.	S: Tôi nghĩ khó mà nói tại sao ngoại trừ hình như... bởi vì nó cho tôi an toàn.
25:30	K: No, no. We have gone much further than that.	K: Không, không. Chúng ta đi xa nhiều rồi.
25:32	B: Because, suppose abstractly and as an idea... we can see the whole thing as no security at all... I mean, just looking at it rationally and abstractly.	B: Bởi, giả sử trừu tượng và như ý niệm chúng ta thấy mọi sự vật không an toàn gì cả ý tôi là, chỉ nhìn nó cách hợp lý và trừu tượng.
25:42	S: That is putting the cart before the horse.	S: Vậy là đặt xe trước bò.
25:44	B: No, I am just saying that if it were some simple matter... giving that much proof, you would have already accepted it.	B: Không, tôi chỉ nói nếu là vấn đề đơn giản cho nhiều bằng chứng, chắc là bạn chấp nhận.
25:52	S: Right.	S: Đúng.
25:54	B: But when it comes to this, no proof seems to work.	B: Nhưng đến đây, hình như không có bằng chứng.
25:57	S: Right. Nothing seems to work.	S: Đúng. Không chứng cứ gì.
25:59	B: Because it seems.. You say all that... but here I am presented with the solid reality... of myself and my security, which seems to deny... there is a sort of reaction which seems to say: well, that may be plausible... but really, it's only words. The real thing is me. Do you see?	B: Bởi hình như...Bạn nói mọi cái nhưng ở đây tôi bày ra hiện thực chắc nịt về chính tôi và an toàn, nó có vẻ chối bỏ có loại phản ứng hình như nói: à, có thể hợp lý, nhưng thực ra chỉ là lời. Cái thực là tôi. Bạn thấy không?
26:15	S: But there is more than that. Why it has such potency? I mean why it seems to take on such importance.	S: Nhưng có nhiều hơn thế. Tại sao có uy lực đó? Ý tôi là tại sao có vẻ quan trọng vậy.
26:24	B: Well, may be. But I am saying it seems that the real thing is me... which is all important.	B: À, có thể. Nhưng tôi nói hình như nó thực với tôi nó rất quan trọng.
26:34	S: There's no question about it. Me, me, me is important.	S: Không vấn đề về nó. Tôi, tôi, tôi là quan trọng.
26:37	K: Which is an idea.	K: Nó là ý niệm.
26:39	B: But it doesn't... we can say abstractly it is an idea. The question is, how do you break into this process?	B: Nhưng nó không... có thể nói trừu tượng nó là ý niệm. Vấn đề là, làm sao ngài đột phá tiến trình này?
26:46	K: No. I think we can break into it... or break through it, or get beyond it... only through perception.	K: Không. Tôi nghĩ chúng ta có thể đột phá hay chọc thủng, hay vượt qua chỉ nhờ nhận thức.
26:59	B: Yes. Because otherwise every thought is involved in that therefore...	B: Vâng. Bởi ngược lại mỗi ý nghĩ dính trong đó vì vậy...
27:05	S: Because I am going to get through it... because it will make me feel better. Right.	S: Bởi vì tôi sẽ vượt qua nó bởi nó sẽ làm tôi thấy tốt hơn. Đúng.
27:09	B: The trouble is that all that we have been talking about... is in the form of ideas. They may be correct ideas... but they won't break into this. S: Right.	B: Vấn đề là mọi cái chúng ta nói là hình thức của ý niệm. Chúng có thể là ý niệm đúng nhưng chúng sẽ không đột phá nó. S: Đúng.
27:17	B: Because this dominates the whole of thought.	B: Bởi nó thống trị toàn thể suy nghĩ.
27:19	S: That's right. You could even ask why are we here. We are here because...	S: Đúng. Ngay cả có thể hỏi tại sao chúng ta ở đây. Chúng ta ở đây vì...
27:23	K: No sir. Look, if I feel... my security lies in some image I have... a picture, a symbol, a conclusion... an ideal and so on, I would... put it not as an abstraction but bring it down. You see, it is so. I believe in something. Actually. Now I say, why do I believe.	K: Không. Này, nếu tôi thấy an toàn nằm trong vài hình ảnh tôi có hình ảnh, biểu tượng, kết luận lý tưởng, v.v.., tôi nói nó không như trừu tượng, mà để nó xuống. Bạn xem, nó vậy đó. Tôi tin vào điều gì. Thực tế. Tôi hỏi, tại sao tôi tin.
27:58	B: Well, have you actually done that?	B: Này, ngài làm thực vậy à?
28:00	K: No, I haven't because I have no beliefs. I have no picture... I don't go in for all those kind of games. I said 'if'. S: If, right.	K: Không, chưa, bởi tôi không niềm tin. Tôi không hình ảnh tôi không vào mọi trò chơi này. Tôi nói 'nếu'. S: Nếu, đúng.
28:10	K: Then I would bring the abstracted thing into a perceptive reality.	K: Rồi tôi đem vật trừu tượng vào thực tại nhận thức.
28:24	S: To see my belief, is that it? K: See it.	S: Thấy niềm tin, phải không? K: Thấy nó.
28:27	S: To see my belief. Right. To see that 'me' in operation.	S: Thấy niềm tin. Đúng. Thấy cái 'tôi' đang hoạt động.
28:36	K: Yes, if you like to put it that way. Sir, wait a minute. Take a simple thing... Have you a conclusion about something? Conclusion, a concept?	K: Vâng, nếu bạn thích nói cách đó. Đợi chút. Ví dụ việc đơn giản... Bạn có kết luận về điều gì? Kết luận, quan niệm?
28:47	S: Yes. K: Eh?	S: Vâng. K: Vậy?
28:48	S: Yes, I think I do. K: Now, wait a minute. How is that brought about? S: Well, through...	S: Vâng, tôi nghĩ thế. K: Vâng, đợi chút. Làm sao nó xảy ra? S: À, qua...
28:55	K: Take a simple thing, not complicated, take a simple thing. A concept that I am an Englishman.	K: Lấy việc đơn giản, không phức tạp, lấy việc đơn giản. Quan niệm rằng tôi là người Anh.
29:05	B: The trouble is that we probably... don't feel attached to those concepts.	B: Vấn đề là có thể chúng ta không cảm thấy bám vào quan niệm.
29:09	K: All right.	K: Đúng.
29:12	S: Let's take one that is real for me: take the one about me being a doctor.	S: Ví dụ một việc thực với tôi: lấy việc tôi là bác sĩ.
29:19	K: A concept.	K: Quan niệm.
29:19	S: That's a concept. That's a conclusion based on training... based on experience, based on the enjoyment of the work.	S: Đó là quan niệm. Là kết luận dựa trên rèn luyện dựa trên kinh nghiệm, dựa trên thụ hưởng công việc.
29:32	K: Which means what? A doctor means, the conclusion means... he is capable of certain activities.	K: Nghĩa là gì? Bác sĩ nghĩa là, kết luận là hắn có khả năng hoạt động gì đó.
29:39	S: Right, OK. Let's take it, concretely.	S: Đúng, phải. Lấy đó, cụ thể.
29:41	K: Concretely. Work at it.	K: Cụ thể. Làm đi.
29:43	S: So now I have got the fact that there is a concrete fact... that I've had this training... I get this pleasure from the work... I get a kind of feed back... I've got a whole community of feed in. Books I've written, papers, positions.	S: Vậy tôi đang có sự kiện, có sự kiện cụ thể rằng tôi có rèn luyện tôi có thú vui từ công việc tôi có loại hồi đáp nào đó tôi có cả cộng đồng nuôi nấng. Sách tôi viết, giấy tờ, địa vị.
29:56	K: Move, move.	K: Tiếp, tiếp.
29:57	S: All right. All that. Now, that is my belief. That belief that I am a doctor is based on all that, that concept. OK. Now, I continually act to continue that.	S: Tốt. Mọi cái. Đó là niềm tin tôi. Niềm tin tôi là bác sĩ dựa trên mọi thứ đó, quan niệm đó. Đúng. Tôi tiếp tục làm để tiếp tục nó.
30:11	K: Yes, sir, that is understood. S: OK.	K: Vâng, hiểu rồi. S: Phải.
30:13	K: Therefore you have a conclusion. You have a concept that you are a doctor.	K: Vì vậy bạn có kết luận. Bạn có quan niệm bạn là bác sĩ.
30:18	S: Right.	S: Đúng.
30:19	K: Because it's based on knowledge, experience, everyday activity.	K: Bởi dựa trên kiến thức, kinh nghiệm, hoạt động hàng ngày.
30:23	S: Right, right. K: Pleasure and all the rest of it.	S: Đúng, đúng. K: Thú vui, và v.v..
30:25	S: Right. K: So what is real in that? What is true in that? Real? S: What do you mean?	S: Đúng. K: Vậy cái gì thực trong đó? Cái gì đúng trong đó? Thực? S: Ý ngài là sao?
30:34	K: Actual, actual.	K: Thực, thực tế.
30:37	S: Well, that is a good question. What is actual?	S: Tốt, là vấn đề hay. Thực là gì?
30:40	K: No, wait, it's so simple. What is actual in that? Your training.	K: Không, đợi đã, đơn giản lắm. Thực gì trong đó? Rèn luyện.
30:43	S: Right.	S: Đúng.
30:45	K: Your knowledge. Your daily operation. That's all. The rest is a conclusion.	K: Kiến thức. Hoạt động hàng ngày. Xong. Còn lại là kết luận.
30:53	B: But what is the rest?	B: Nhưng còn lại là gì?
30:55	K: The rest: I am much better than somebody else.	K: Còn lại: tôi quá giỏi hơn ai khác.
31:00	B: Or this thing is going to keep me occupied in a good way.	B: Hay việc này sẽ giữ tôi bận rộn theo lối hay.
31:05	K: I will never be lonely. S: Right. I know what's going... to happen to 'X' because I have this knowledge.	K: Tôi sẽ không hề cô đơn. S: Đúng. Tôi biết điều sẽ xảy ra cho 'X' bởi tôi có kiến thức.
31:11	K: Yes. So?	K: Vâng. Vậy?
31:13	B: Well, that is part of it. K: Of course, much more.	B: Này, đó là một phần. K: Dĩ nhiên, nhiều nữa.
31:16	S: Yes, go ahead. I want to hear what you...	S: Vâng, tiếp tục. Tôi muốn nghe điều bạn...
31:19	B: But isn't there also a certain fear that if I don't have this... then things will be pretty bad.	B: Nhưng cũng không có sợ hãi gì nếu tôi không có nó rồi sự việc sẽ khá tệ.
31:28	S: Right. OK. B: And that fear seems to spur on...	S: Đúng. Phải. B: Và sợ hãi ấy hình như thúc...
31:33	K: Of course. And if the patients don't turn up?	K: Dĩ nhiên. Và nếu bịnh nhân không đến?
31:37	B: Then I have no money. K: Fear.	B: Thì tôi không tiền. K: Sợ hãi.
31:39	S: Then no activity. K: So loneliness. Back.	S: Rồi không hoạt động. K: Cô đơn. Trở lại.
31:43	S: Back again. Right. K: So, be occupied.	S: Trở lại. Đúng. K: Vậy, bận rộn.
31:47	S: Be occupied doing this, completing this concept. OK?	S: Bận rộn làm, hoàn thành quan niệm này. Phải không?
31:52	K: Be occupied. S: Right. It's very important! Do you realise how important that is to people, to all... to all people, to be occupied? K: Of course.	K: Bận rộn. S: Đúng. Rất quan trọng! Ngài có thấy nó rất quan trọng cho mọi người cho mọi người, bận rộn? K: Dĩ nhiên.
32:04	S: Do you get the meat of that? K: Of course.	S: Ngài có nắm phần cốt lõi? K: Dĩ nhiên.
32:07	S: How important it is to people to be occupied. I can see them running around.	S: Bận rộn là quá quan trọng cho mọi người. Tôi có thể thấy họ chạy quanh.
32:13	K: A housewife is occupied. B: Exactly.	K: Bà nội trợ bận rộn. B: Đúng.
32:18	K: Remove that occupation, she says, please...	K: Gỡ bận rộn đi, bà ta nói, làm ơn...
32:21	B: ...what shall I do?	B: ...tôi sẽ làm gì?
32:22	S: We have that as a fact. Since we put... electrical equipment into the houses... the women are going crazy... they have got nothing to do with their time.	S: Chúng ta có đó như sự kiện. Bởi chúng ta đặt thiết bị điện trong nhà phụ nữ sẽ phát điên họ không có gì để làm thời gian rỗi.
32:30	K: But, no. The result of this, neglect of their children. Don't talk to me about it!	K: Nhưng, không. Hậu quả của nó, quên mất con trẻ. Đừng nói với tôi về nó!
32:36	S: (laughs) Right. OK. Let's go on. Now we have got this fact, occupied.	S: (Cười) Đúng. Phải. Tiếp đi. Chúng ta có sự kiện này, bận rộn.
32:41	K: Occupied. Now... Is this occupation an abstraction, or actuality?	K: Bận rộn. Giờ thì... Bận rộn là trừu tượng, hay thực tế?
32:51	S: This is an actuality. K: Which?	S: Là thực tế. K: Gì nào?
32:53	S: Actuality. I'm actually occupied. K: No.	S: Thực tế. Tôi bận rộn thực. K: Không.
33:02	B: What is it?	B: Nó là gì?
33:08	K: You're actually occupied.	K: Bạn thực sự bận rộn.
33:10	S: Yes. K: Daily.	S: Vâng. K: Hàng ngày.
33:11	S: Daily.	S: Hàng ngày.
33:15	B: What do you really mean by occupied? Do you see...	B: Ý bạn bận rộn thực sự là gì? Bạn có thấy...
33:18	S: What do you mean?	S: Ý bạn là sao?
33:20	B: I can say I am actually doing all the operations. That is clear. I am seeing patients as the doctor.	B: Tôi có thể nói tôi đang làm mọi hoạt động. Vậy là rõ. Tôi thăm bịnh nhân như bác sĩ.
33:25	S: You are going to do your thing.	S: Anh sẽ làm việc anh.
33:27	B: I am doing my thing, getting my reward and so on. 'Occupied' it seems to me... has a psychological meaning, further than that... that my mind is in that thing in a relatively harmonious way. There was something I saw on television once... of a woman who was highly disturbed... and it showed on the encephalograph... when she was occupied doing arithmetic sums... the encephalograph went beautifully smooth. She stopped doing the sums and it went all over the place. Therefore, she had to keep on doing something... to keep the brain working right.	B: Tôi làm việc tôi, được phần thưởng, v.v.. 'Bận rộn' với tôi hình như có ý nghĩa tâm lý, xa hơn thế trí óc tôi trong đó, trong cách hoà hợp tương đối. Có một việc tôi từng xem trên TV về người phụ nữ quá bận rộn và nó hiện ra trên điện não đồ khi bà bận rộn làm toán cộng điện não đồ chạy rất đẹp trơn tru. Bà ngưng làm toán nó chạy lung tung. Vì vậy bà phải tiếp tục làm gì đó để giữ não hoạt động đúng.
34:03	K: Which means what?	K: Vậy nghĩa là gì?
34:05	S: Go ahead. B: What does it mean?	S: Tiếp tục. B: Nó nghĩa là gì?
34:08	K: A mechanical process. S: That's right.	K: Tiến trình máy móc. S: Đúng vậy.
34:13	B: It seems that the brain starts jumping... all over the place unless it has this thing.	B: Hình như não bắt đầu nhảy lung tung cho đến lúc nó có việc gì.
34:17	K: A constant... B: ...content.	K: Luôn luôn... B: ...hài lòng.
34:22	K: So you have reduced yourself to a machine.	K: Vậy bạn thu nhỏ mình thành máy móc.
34:26	S: Don't say it! (Laughter) No, it's not fair. But it is true. I feel there is a mechanical... K: Responses.	S: Đừng nói vậy! (Cười) Không, không hay. Nhưng là sự thật. tôi cảm thấy có máy móc... K: Đáp ứng.
34:38	S: Oh yes, commitment. K: Of course.	S: Ồ vâng, giam giữ. K: Dĩ nhiên.
34:41	B: But why does the brain... begin to go so wild when it's not occupied?	B: Nhưng tại sao não bắt đầu chạy loạn khi không bận rộn?
34:45	S: That's right.	S: Đúng thế.
34:48	B: The brain begins to jump around wildly when it's not occupied. That seems to be a common experience.	B: Não bắt đầu nhảy loanh quanh khi nó không bận rộn. Đó hình như là kinh nghiệm chung.
34:53	K: Because in occupation there is security.	K: Bởi bận rộn là an toàn.
34:56	B: There is order. K: Order.	B: Có trật tự. K: Trật tự.
34:58	S: In occupation there is a kind of mechanical order.	S: Trong bận rộn có loại trật tự máy móc.
34:59	K: Mechanical order.	K: Trật tự máy móc.
35:01	B: So we feel our security really... means we want order. Is that right?	B: Vậy cảm thấy an toàn thực sự nghĩa là muốn trật tự. Phải không?
35:04	K: That's it! B: We want order inside the brain. We want to be able to project order into the future, for ever.	K: Đúng vậy! B: Chúng ta muốn trật tự trong não. Chúng ta muốn có thể định trật tự cho tương lai, mãi mãi.
35:11	K: That's right. S: That's right. Would you say that you can get it by mechanical order?	K: Đúng thế. S: Đúng vậy. Bạn nói có thể đạt nó bằng trật tự máy móc?
35:15	B: But then we get dissatisfied with it, you say... 'I am getting sick, bored with it, I am sick of this mechanical life... I want something more interesting'.	B: Nhưng rồi chúng ta bất mãn, bạn nói... 'Tôi chán ngấy nó, tôi phát bịnh với cuộc đời máy móc tôi muốn điều gì thú vị hơn'.
35:22	K: That is where the gurus come in! (Laughter)	K: Đó là chỗ đạo sư bước vào! (Cười)
35:25	B: Then the thing goes wild again. The mechanical order won't satisfy it... because it works for a little while.	B: Rồi việc lại lung tung. Trật tự máy móc không thoả mãn nó bởi nó hoạt động chỉ một lát.
35:31	S: I don't like the way something is slipping in there. You say that we are going like from one thing to another. I'm looking for satisfaction and then I'm not satisfied.	S: Tôi không thích cách việc gì trợt vào đó. Bạn nói chúng ta đi như từ việc này sang việc kia. Tôi tìm thoả mãn rồi tôi không thoả mãn.
35:41	B: I am looking for some regular order which is good. And I think that by my job as a doctor I am getting it.	B: Tôi tìm trật tự đều đặn nào mà tốt. Và tôi nghĩ bởi nghề tôi như bác sĩ tôi sẽ được.
35:48	S: Yes.	S: Vâng.
35:50	B: But after a while I begin to feel it is... too repetitious, I'm getting bored.	B: Nhưng sau một lúc tôi cảm thấy nó cứ lặp đi lặp lại, tôi chán.
35:54	S: OK. But suppose that doesn't happen. Suppose some people become satisfied with mechanical order.	S: Đúng. Nhưng giả sử nó không xảy ra. Giả sử vài người trở nên thoả mãn với trật tự máy móc.
35:59	B: They don't really. Then they become dull.	B: Thực sự họ không. Rồi họ thành đần độn.
36:01	K: Quite. Mechanical; so mechanical they don't and you stop that mechanism... the brain goes wild. S: That's right.	K: Đúng. Máy móc; quá máy móc họ không và bạn dừng máy móc ấy não chạy lung tung. S: Đúng thế.
36:08	B: So they may feel they are a bit dull and they would like... some entertainment... or something more interesting and exciting. And therefore there is a contradiction... there is conflict and confusion... in the whole thing. Take this woman who could always get... everything right by doing arithmetical sums... but you can't keep on doing arithmetic sums! (Laughter) I mean somewhere she has got to stop... doing these arithmetical sums. S: Right.	B: Vậy họ có thể thấy họ hơi uể oải và họ muốn vài giải trí hay gì đó thú vị và hưng phấn hơn. Và vì vậy có mâu thuẫn có xung đột và rối loạn trong cả sự việc. Lấy ví dụ bà nọ có thể luôn đạt mọi việc đúng nhờ làm toán cộng nhưng bạn không thể luôn cứ làm toán cộng! (Cười) Ý tôi là bà phải dừng làm toán cộng đâu đó. S: Đúng.
36:41	B: Then her brain will go wild again.	B: Rồi não bà lại chạy lung tung.
36:43	K: He is asking what is disturbing him. He feels he hasn't put his teeth into it. What is disturbing him?	K: Hắn hỏi cái gì làm phiền hắn. Hắn thấy hắn chưa giải quyết nó. Cái gì làm rộn hắn?
36:53	S: You're right. K: What is disturbing you?	S: Ngài đúng. K: Cái gì làm rộn bạn?
36:56	S: Well, it is this feeling that, people will say that...	S: À, chính cảm giác này, mọi người sẽ nói là...
37:01	K: No, you say, you. S: I will say, let's say... I can get this order, I can get this mechanical order, and I can.	K: Không, bạn nói, bạn. S: Tôi sẽ nói, ví dụ tôi có thể đạt trật tự, trật tự máy móc, và có thể.
37:09	K: Yes, you can.	K: Vâng, bạn có thể.
37:10	S: From occupying myself in something I like.	S: Nhờ bận rộn trong việc tôi thích.
37:13	K: Go on. Proceed.	K: Tiếp tục. Tiếp.
37:14	S: I can do it. I can do something I like... and it gets boring, let's say, or it might get repetitious... but then I will find new parts of it. And then I'll do that some more... because that gives me a pleasure. I get a satisfaction out of it. So I keep doing more of that. It's like an accumulative process.	S: Có thể làm. Tôi có thể làm gì tôi thích và rồi chán, ví dụ, hay có lẽ lặp đi lặp lại nhưng rồi sẽ tìm ra những phần mới. Và rồi tôi sẽ làm nhiều hơn bởi nó cho tôi thú vui. tôi thoả mãn vì nó. Nên tôi cứ làm thêm. Nó như tiến trình tích luỹ.
37:34	K: No, you move from one mechanical process... get bored with it, and move to another mechanical process... get bored with it and keep going. And you call that living! S: That's right. That's it! That's what I call living.	K: Không, bạn từ tiến trình máy móc này chán nó, và chuyển sang tiến trình máy móc khác chán nó rồi tiếp tục đi. Và bạn gọi đó là sống! S: Đúng vậy. Đúng. Cái đó tôi gọi là sống.
37:49	B: The trouble in it, even if I accept all that... is that I now try to be sure that I can keep on doing this... because I can always anticipate a future... when I won't be able to do it. You see? I will be a bit too old for the job... or else I'll fail. I'll lose the job... In other words, I still have insecurity in that order.	B: Vấn đề là, nếu tôi chấp nhận hết giờ tôi lại cố chắc rằng tôi có thể tiếp tục làm thế bởi tôi luôn có thể dự đoán tương lai khi nào tôi không thể làm. Hiểu không? Tôi sẽ hơi già cho nghề nghiệp hay sẽ thất bại. Tôi sẽ mất việc... Nói cách khác, tôi vẫn bất an trong trật tự ấy.
38:09	K: Essentially, essentially it is mechanical disorder.	K: Cơ bản, cơ bản nó là vô trật tự máy móc.
38:17	S: Masking itself as order. K: Order. Now, wait a minute. Do you see this? Or is it still an abstraction? Because, you know, idea... as Dr. Bohm will tell you, idea means 'observation'... the root meaning, observation. Do you observe this?	S: Tự hóa trang là trật tự. K: Trật tự. Đợi chút. Bạn có thấy vậy? Hay vẫn là trừu tượng? Bởi, bạn biết đó, ý niệm như Dr. Bohm sẽ kể, ý niệm nghĩa là 'quan sát' nghĩa gốc, quan sát. Bạn có quan sát nó?
38:58	S: I see that, yes. I feel that I… I think I see... Oh, no. I see that. What I see actually is, I see this... a movement that goes on doing this... very much like Piaget's theory... there is assimilation, an accommodation... and then there is seeing of what doesn't fit... and going on with it. And then there is more assimilation... and accommodation and going on with it. The psychologist, Piaget, the French psychologist... describes this as the normative of human brains.	S: Tôi nhìn nó, vâng. Tôi thấy tôi... Tôi nghĩ tôi thấy... Ồ, không. Tôi nhìn nó. Tôi thực thấy là, tôi thấy chuyển động tiếp tục làm thế rất giống lý thuyết của Piaget có sự đồng hóa, sự điều tiết và rồi có thấy cái không hợp và tiếp tục với nó. Và rồi có đồng hóa nữa và điều tiết và tiếp tục với nó. Nhà tâm lý, Piaget, nhà tâm lý học người Pháp diễn tả nó như bình thường của não người.
39:36	K: Yes, yes. S: You know this.	K: Vâng, vâng. S: Ngài biết đó.
39:40	K: I don't have to read Piaget, I can observe it.	K: Không cần đọc Piaget, tôi có thể quan sát.
39:43	B: Then the point is... Are you driven to this because... you're frightened of the instability of the brain? That would mean being occupied with this. And it seems then that is disorder. If you are doing something... because you are trying to run away from instability... of the brain, that is already disorder.	B: Rồi vấn đề là... Bạn bị đẩy vào đó bởi bạn sợ tính bất ổn của não? Đó nghĩa là bận rộn với nó. Và hình như đó là vô trật tự. Nếu bạn làm gì bởi bạn cố chạy trốn tính bất ổn của não, đó đã là vô trật tự.
40:05	S: Yes, yes.	S: Vâng, vâng.
40:06	B: In other words, that will merely be masking disorder.	B: Nói cách khác, đó chỉ nguỵ trang vô trật tự.
40:09	S: Yes. Then you are suggesting that this is being... the natural disorder of the brain. Are you suggesting a natural disorder?	S: Vâng. Rồi bạn gợi ý rằng nó là vô trật tự tự nhiên của não. Bạn gợi ý vô trật tự tự nhiên?
40:16	B: No, I'm saying that the brain seems to be disordered. This seems to be a fact. Right? That the brain without occupation... tends to go into disorder.	B: Không, tôi nói não hình như vô trật tự. Đó như là sự kiện. Phải không? Rằng não không bận rộn có khuynh hướng vô trật tự.
40:25	S: Without the mechanics we get this. That's what we know, without the mechanics.	S: Không cơ học chúng ta bị vậy. Chúng ta biết vậy đó, không có cơ học.
40:29	K: So that's frightened of it.	K: Vậy là sợ hãi nó.
40:31	B: Well, it's dangerous actually because one feels that... if it keeps doing this, you don't know what's going to happen.	B: À, nó nguy hiểm bởi ta cảm thấy rằng nếu tiếp tục làm thế, bạn không biết điều gì sẽ xảy ra.
40:36	K: Of course it's dangerous.	K: Dĩ nhiên nguy hiểm.
40:38	B: I mean I may do all sorts of crazy things.	B: Tôi nói tôi có thể làm mọi việc điên rồ.
40:41	K: Yes. All the neurotics, you know all that business.	K: Vâng. Loạn thần kinh hết, bạn biết mọi việc.
40:45	B: I feel that the main danger comes from within.	B: Tôi thấy nguy hiểm chánh đến từ bên trong.
40:49	K: Absolutely. Now, when you see it, observe it... there is action, which is not fragmented.	K: Tất nhiên. Khi bạn nhìn nó, quan sát nó có hành động, không bị manh mún.
41:08	B: One can feel that you don't know... whether this disorder can stop. If you were sure... that it could stop, that religion... that god will take care of it, or something... then you will have security. K: Quite.	B: Có thể thấy bạn không biết vô trật tự có thể dừng không. Nếu chắc rằng nó có thể dừng, tôn giáo thần thánh sẽ lo cho nó, hay gì đó bạn liền có an toàn. K: Đúng.
41:23	B: That god will give you eternal bliss.	B: Thần thánh cho bạn phúc vĩnh cửu.
41:28	S: You don't feel that… you don't feel that you can depend on anything.	S: Bạn không thấy rằng bạn không thấy bạn có thể lệ thuộc gì.
41:32	B: Nothing can control that disorder. This really seems to be the thing... that there is nothing that can control that disorder. You may take pills, or do various things... but it's always there in the background.	B: Không gì có thể kiểm soát vô trật tự. Nó thực sự hình như là vật mà không gì có thể kiểm soát vô trật tự. Bạn có thể chơi ma tuý, hay làm đủ việc nhưng nó luôn ở đó trong hậu trường.
41:44	S: Right. K: Quite right.	S: Đúng. K: Rất đúng.
41:47	B: I don't know whether we should say, one question is... why do we have this disorder? If it were built into the structure... of the brain, seeing this is human nature... then there would be no way out.	B: Không biết liệu chúng ta có nên nói, vấn đề là tại sao chúng ta vô trật tự? Nếu nó được tạo trong cấu trúc não, thấy nó là bản chất con người chắc là vô vọng thoát ra.
42:00	K: No, sir. I think the disorder arises... first when we are mechanical processes going on. And in that mechanical process the brain feels secure... and when that mechanical process.. is disturbed, it becomes insecure.	K: Không. Tôi nghĩ vô trật tự nổi lên trước hết khi chúng ta là tiến trình máy móc. Và trong tiến trình máy móc ấy não thấy an toàn và khi tiến trình máy móc ấy bị rối loạn, nó thành bất an.
42:21	S: Then it does it again.	S: Rồi nó lại chạy.
42:23	K: Again, and again, and again.	K: Lại nữa, và nữa, và nữa.
42:25	S: It never stays with that insecurity.	S: Nó không hề ở đó với bất an.
42:27	K: No, no. When it perceives this process is still mechanical... and therefore disorder.	K: Không, không. Khi nó nhận ra tiến trình ấy vẫn là máy móc và vậy là vô trật tự.
42:39	B: The question is why does the brain get caught in mechanism? In other words, it seems in the situation... the brain gets caught in mechanical process.	B: Vấn đề là tại sao não bị kẹt trong cơ chế ấy? Nói cách khác, nó như trong tình huống não bị kẹt trong tiến trình máy móc.
42:47	K: Because it is the safest, the most secure way of living.	K: Bởi đó là an toàn nhất, lối sống an ổn nhất.
42:50	B: Well, it appears that way. But it's actually very...	B: À, nó có vẻ thế. Nhưng thực ra rất...
42:53	K: Not appears. It is so for the time being.	K: Không phải có vẻ. Tạm thời nó vậy.
42:55	B: For the time being, but in the long run it's not.	B: Tạm thời, nhưng lâu dài thì không thế.
42:57	K: Ah, in the long run…	K: À, lâu dài...
42:58	S: Are you saying we are time bound...	S: Ngài nói chúng ta kẹt thời gian...
43:04	K: Conditioned to be time bound, conditioned by our tradition... by our education, by the culture we live in and so on... to operate mechanically. S: We take the easy way.	K: Qui định là kẹt thời gian, qui định bởi truyền thống bởi giáo dục, bởi văn hóa chúng ta sống, v.v.. là hoạt động máy móc. S: Chúng ta theo lối dễ.
43:16	K: The easy way.	K: Lối dễ dàng.
43:18	B: But it's also a kind of mistake to say... let's say in the beginning... the mechanical way shows signs of being safer... and at the beginning... the brain makes a mistake and says 'This is safer'... but then somehow it fails to be able... to see that it has made a mistake... it holds to this mistake. In the beginning you might call it... an innocent mistake to say... 'This look safer and I will follow it'. But then after a while... you are getting evidence that it's not so safe... but the brain begins to reject it, keep away from it.	B: Nhưng đó cũng là sai lầm khi nói ví dụ ban đầu lối đi máy móc hiện ra dấu hiệu an toàn hơn và lúc đầu não sai lầm và nói 'Đây an toàn hơn', nhưng rồi cách nào đó nó thất bại để có thể thấy nó đã sai lầm nó bám sai lầm ấy. Lúc đầu bạn có thể gọi nó là sai lầm ngây thơ để nói... 'Nó có vẻ an toàn hơn và tôi sẽ theo'. Nhưng rồi lúc sau bạn hiểu dĩ nhiên là nó không an toàn nên não bắt đầu loại nó, tránh xa nó.
43:52	S: Well, I think you could raise the issue whether there aren't... certain given facts in child rearing. I mean when the mother feels... the baby is crying and she jams a nipple in its mouth... that's teaching the baby... that you shut up and take the easy way out.	S: À, tôi nghĩ bạn có thể đưa ra vấn đề xem không có vài sự kiện trong nuôi dạy trẻ sao. Ý tôi là khi bà mẹ cảm thấy bé khóc và bà ấn núm vú vào miệng nó đó dạy đứa bé rằng nín khóc và khéo xoay sở đi.
44:09	K: Poor baby. (laughs) That is only the mothers who don't want babies... when they jam in the nipples.	K: Bé đáng thương. (cười) Chỉ những bà mẹ không thích các bé mới ấn núm vú vào.
44:18	B: I meant that's part of the conditioning which explains... how it is propagated. But it still doesn't explain... why the brain doesn't see at some stage that it's wrong.	B: Ý tôi đó là một phần của qui định giải thích cách nó truyền bá. Nhưng vẫn chưa giải thích tại sao não không thấy ở mức độ nào đó nó sai.
44:32	S: Why doesn't it see at some stage that it's wrong?	S: Tại sao không thấy ở mức độ nào đó nó sai?
44:36	B: In other words, it continues in this mechanical process... rather than seeing that it's wrong.	B: Nói cách khác, nó tiếp tục tiến trình máy móc hơn là thấy nó sai.
44:41	K: You are asking, why doesn't it see that this... mechanical process is essentially disorder.	K: Bạn hỏi, tại sao nó không thấy rằng tiến trình máy móc chính là vô trật tự.
44:48	B: It's disorder and dangerous.	B: Vô trật tự và nguy hiểm.
44:50	K: Dangerous.	K: Nguy hiểm.
44:51	B: It's complete delusion. Its security is totally delusory.	B: Hoàn toàn ảo tưởng. An toàn ấy đều là ảo.
44:56	S: Why isn't there some sort of feedback? In other words... I do something and it comes out wrong. At some point I ought to realise that. For instance I have seen my life is mechanical.	S: Tại sao không có vài loại phản hồi? Nói cách khác tôi làm gì đó và nó hiện ra sai lầm. Ở điểm nào đó tôi phải thấy chứ. Ví dụ tôi thấy đời sống là máy móc.
45:10	K: Now, wait. You see it? S: But I don't.	K: Khoan đã. Bạn thấy à? B: Ồ, không.
45:13	K: Wait. Why is it mechanical?	K: Khoan. Tại sao nó máy móc?
45:20	S: Well, it is mechanical because it goes... like this, it is all action and reaction.	S: À, máy móc bởi vì nó chạy như thế, đều là hành động và phản ứng.
45:28	K: Why is it mechanical?	K: Tại sao nó máy móc?
45:32	S: It's repetitious.	S: Lặp đi lặp lại.
45:33	K: Yes, which is mechanical. S: Which is mechanical. I want it to be easy. That is also mechanical. I want it to be easy. I feel that that gives me the most security, to keep it mechanical. I get a boundary. I know it's like you say I have the house... I have got my mechanical life, that gives me security... it's mechanical because it's repetitious.	K: Vâng, đó là máy móc. S: Là máy móc. Tôi muốn dễ chịu. Đó cũng máy móc. Tôi muốn dễ chịu. Tôi cảm thấy an ổn cho tôi nhất, là cứ giữ nó máy móc. Tôi bị giới hạn. Tôi biết nó như bạn nói tôi có nhà tôi có cuộc sống máy móc, nó cho tôi an toàn nó máy móc bởi lặp đi lặp lại.
46:02	K: But you haven't answered my question.	K: Nhưng bạn chưa trả lời câu hỏi.
46:04	S: I know I haven't! It's mechanical. I'm not sure what your question is. Your question is why...	S: Tôi biết tôi chưa! Là máy móc. Tôi không chắc ngài hỏi gì. Ngài hỏi tại sao...
46:13	K: ...has it become mechanical. S: Why has it become mechanical?	K: ...nó thành máy móc. S: Tại sao nó thành máy móc?
46:16	B: Why does it remain mechanical?	B: Tại sao nó cứ máy móc?
46:18	K: Why does it become and remain mechanical?	K: Tại sao nó thành và cứ giữ máy móc?
46:21	S: I think it remains mechanical, it is the thing we began with.	S: Tôi nghĩ nó cứ máy móc, đó là việc chúng ta bắt đầu.
46:27	K: Ah, no, you are not... If you pursue it. Why does it remain mechanical?	K: À, không, bạn không...Nếu bạn theo nó. Tại sao nó cứ máy móc?
46:33	S: I don't see it's mechanical.	S: Tôi không thấy nó máy móc.
46:37	K: What has caused us to accept this mechanical way of living?	K: Cái gì làm chúng ta chấp nhận lối sống máy móc?
46:46	S: I am not sure I can answer that. The feel of it is that I would see the insecurity, I would see.	S: Không chắc tôi có thể trả lời. Cảm giác về nó là tôi thấy bất an, tôi thấy.
46:53	K: No, look. Wouldn't you be frightened if there was no…	K: Không, nhìn đi. Bạn không sợ hãi nếu không có...
46:58	S: I would see the uncertainty.	S: Tôi thấy bất ổn.
47:00	K: No, no. If the mechanical process... of life that one lives suddenly stopped... wouldn't you be frightened? S: Yes.	K: Không, không. Nếu tiến trình máy móc của đời sống mà ta sống bất ngờ dừng lại, bạn không sợ à? S: Vâng.
47:09	B: Wouldn't there be some genuine danger?	B: Không có nguy hiểm thực gì à?
47:12	K: That, of course. There is a danger that things might...	K: Đó, dĩ nhiên. Có nguy hiểm là sự việc có thể...
47:16	B: ...go to pieces. K: ...to pieces.	B: ...vỡ tan. K: ...vỡ tan.
47:21	S: Well, it is deeper than that. K: Wait! Find out, come on.	S: À, sâu hơn thế. K: Khoan! Tìm xem nào.
47:24	S: It is not just that there is a genuine... danger that I would be frightened. It feels like that things take on a terribly... moment-by-moment effect.	S: Nó không chỉ là có nguy hiểm thực sự mà tôi sợ hãi. Chắc là sự việc tiếp tục hậu quả khủng khiếp từng phút.
47:35	K: No. Look. Would total order... give it complete security? Wouldn't it? Total order. S: Right.	K: Không. Nhìn. Hoàn toàn trật tự cho nó an toàn trọn vẹn? Phải không? Trật tự hoàn toàn. S: Đúng.
47:55	K: The brain wants total order. S: Right.	K: Não muốn trật tự hoàn toàn. S: Đúng.
47:58	K: Otherwise it can't function properly. Therefore it accepts the mechanical... and hoping it won't lead to disaster.	K: Ngược lại nó không thể hoạt động đúng. Vì vậy nó chấp nhận máy móc và mong nó sẽ không dẫn đến tai họa.
48:09	S: Right.	S: Đúng.
48:10	K: Hoping it will find order in that.	K: Hy vọng nó sẽ tìm ra trật tự trong đó.
48:12	B: Could you say that... perhaps in the beginning the brain accepted this... just simply not knowing... that this mechanism would bring disorder... and it just went into it by an innocent state?	B: Bạn có thể nói rằng có thể ban đầu não chấp nhận nó chỉ đơn giản không biết rằng cơ chế ấy đem đến vô trật tự và nó chỉ vào đó bởi vì ngây thơ.
48:22	K: Yes.	K: Vâng.
48:23	B: But then later... K: ...caught in a trap.	B: Nhưng rồi sau đó... K: ...kẹt trong bẫy.
48:25	B: It's caught in a trap. And somehow it maintains this disorder... it doesn't want to get out of it.	B: Nó kẹt trong bẫy. Và cách nào đó nó giữ vô trật tự nó không muốn thoát ra.
48:31	K: Because it's frightened of greater disorder.	K: Bởi nó sợ vô trật tự lớn hơn.
48:33	B: Yes. It says... 'All that I've built up may go to pieces'. In other words... I'm not in the same situation... as when I first went in the trap because... now I have built up a great structure. I think that structure will go to pieces.	B: Vâng. Nó nói... 'Mọi cái tôi xây lên có thể tan vỡ'. Nói cách khác tôi không ở cùng hoàn cảnh khi tôi mới bước vào bẫy bởi giờ tôi đã xây lên cấu trúc lớn. Tôi nghĩ cấu trúc ấy sẽ tan tành.
48:46	S: That's right. I heard one man... - I nearly jumped out of my seat... I heard one man say to another... to one of his colleagues, he says... 'I have just published my thirteenth book'. He said it just like that! (Laughter) The way he said it was desperate.	S: Đúng thế. Tôi nghe một anh... - tôi suýt nhảy khỏi ghế tôi nghe anh này nói với anh nọ một đồng nghiệp, hắn nói... 'Tôi vừa xuất bản quyển sách thứ mười ba'. Hắn nói giống y vậy! (Cười) Cách hắn nói quá não nề.
49:02	K: No sir, what I am trying to get at is... the brain needs this order... otherwise it can't function. It finds order in mechanical process... because it's trained from childhood... do as you are told, etc. There is a conditioning going on right away... to live a mechanical life.	K: Không, điều tôi cố gắng hiểu là não cần trật tự, ngược lại nó không thể hoạt động. Nó tìm trật tự trong tiến trình máy móc bởi nó tập luyện từ nhỏ làm khi được bảo, v.v.. Có qui định diễn ra ngay để sống đời máy móc.
49:26	S: Right.	S: Đúng.
49:28	B: As also the fear induced of giving up... this mechanism at the same time.	B: Cũng như sợ hãi cùng lúc lại... xúi giục bỏ cơ chế này.
49:31	K: Of course.	K: Dĩ nhiên.
49:32	B: I mean that you are thinking all the time that without this... everything will go to pieces, including especially the brain.	B: Ý tôi là bạn luôn suy nghĩ rằng không có nó mọi việc sẽ tan vỡ, đặc biệt gồm cả não.
49:39	K: Brain, yes. And so they break from... this mechanical business and join communities... you know, all the process, which is still mechanical.	K: Não, vâng. Và vậy nên họ bỏ việc máy móc này và nhập nhóm tu hành bạn biết đó, mọi tiến trình, đều là máy móc.
49:51	S: Right, right.	S: Đúng, đúng.
49:54	K: Which means the brain must have order. And finds order in a mechanical way. Now, do I see, do you see actually... the mechanical way of living leads to disorder? Which is tradition. If I live entirely in the past, which is very orderly... I think it is very orderly, and what takes place? I'm already dead... and I can't meet anything. S: I'm repeating myself always.	K: Nghĩa là não phải có trật tự. Và tìm trật tự trong lối máy móc. Bạn có thấy, có thấy thực sự lối sống máy móc đưa đến vô trật tự? Nó là truyền thống. Nếu tôi sống hết cả bằng quá khứ, rất trật tự tôi nghĩ nó rất trật tự, và điều gì xảy ra? Tôi đã chết rồi và tôi không thể gặp điều gì. S: Tôi luôn tự lặp lại.
50:54	K: So please don't disturb my tradition. The communists say that... the Catholics say that - you follow? The same thing! And every human being... says, 'Please, I have found something... which gives me order: a belief, a hope, this or that... and leave me alone.' S: Right.	K: Vậy đừng làm rộn truyền thống. Cộng sản nói rằng Cơ đốc nói rằng - kịp không? Cũng vậy! Và mọi người nói 'Này, tôi đã tìm ra điều gì cho tôi trật tự: niềm tin, hy vọng, này nọ và để mặc tôi.' S: Đúng.
51:16	K: And life isn't going to leave them alone. So he gets frightened... and establishes another mechanical habit. Now, do you see this whole thing? And therefore an instant action... breaking it all away and therefore order. The brain that says, 'at last I have an order... which is absolutely indestructible.'	K: Và cuộc đời không để họ yên. Nên hắn sợ hãi và dựng lên thói quen máy móc khác. Bạn có thấy toàn bộ việc này? Và vậy là hành động tức thì bẻ gãy hết và là trật tự. Não nói, 'ít ra tôi có trật tự nó vô cùng bền vững.'
51:58	B: Well, I think it doesn't follow from what you said... that this will happen. K: Of course.	B: À, tôi nghĩ nó không theo điều ngài nói là việc này sẽ xảy ra. K: Dĩ nhiên.
52:02	B: In other words, you are saying this.	B: Nói cách khác, ngài nói thế.
52:04	K: I am saying it.	K: Tôi nói thế.
52:06	B: But it doesn't follow logically.	B: Nhưng nó không theo cách hợp lý.
52:10	K: It will follow logically if you go into it.	K: Nó sẽ theo cách hợp lý nếu bạn tìm hiểu.
52:12	B: If we go into it. Can we reach a point... where it really follows necessarily?	B: Nếu tìm hiểu. Chúng ta có thể chạm vấn đề thực sự cần theo?
52:18	K: I think we can only go into it... if you perceive the mechanical security... which the brain has developed, attached and cultivated.	K: Tôi nghĩ chỉ có thể tìm hiểu nó nếu bạn nhận ra an toàn máy móc mà não đã phát triển, bám víu và vun đắp.
52:33	S: Can I share with you something... as you are talking, I find myself... I see it in a certain way though, I see it like this... don't get impatient with me too quickly! I see it this way... I can see the mechanicalness. Right? And I see that I see... and I was flashing through my mind... various kinds of interchanges... between people. And the way they talk... they way I talk to them at a party... at a cocktail party, and it's all about what happened before.	S: Tôi có thể chia sẻ với ngài điều ngài nói, tôi tự tìm tôi thấy nó cách nào đó, tôi thấy nó như vầy đừng mất kiên nhẫn nhanh vậy! Tôi thấy nó vầy tôi có thể thấy việc máy móc. Phải không? Và tôi thấy là tôi thấy và tôi lóe lên trong trí nhiều loại trao đổi nhau giữa mọi người. Và cách họ nói cách tôi nói với họ nơi tiệc tùng ở tiệc rượu, và tất cả đều là việc đã xảy ra.
53:09	K: Quite, quite.	K: Đúng, đúng.
53:10	S: You can see them telling you who they are... in terms of their past.	S: Bạn có thể thấy họ kể lể họ là ai lòng vòng quá khứ họ.
53:15	K: What they will be. S: What they will be. This guy I just described to you, who said... 'I did my thirteenth book'... he said it like that. It is very important... that I get that information. And I see this elaborate structure. This guy has got in his head that... I'm going to think this about him... and then he is going to go... to his university and he is going to be thought that. He is always living like that and the whole structure is elaborate.	K: Họ sẽ là gì. S: Họ sẽ là gì. Anh chàng tôi vừa kể, hắn nói 'Tôi làm quyển thứ mười ba' hắn nói vậy đó. Rất quan trọng là tôi có thông tin ấy. Và tôi thấy cấu trúc phức tạp ấy. Anh ta có trong đầu rằng tôi sẽ nghĩ việc này về hắn và rồi hắn sẽ vào trường đại học và hắn sẽ nghĩ thế. Hắn luôn sống như thế và cả cấu trúc là phức tạp.
53:41	K: Are you doing that?	K: Bạn làm vậy à?
53:56	S: When did you stop beating your wife! (laughs) Of course I am doing it. I am doing it right now! I am seeing... the structure right now, all this, I am!	S: Đến khi bạn ngừng đánh vợ! (Cười) Dĩ nhiên tôi làm vậy. Tôi đang làm vậy. Tôi đang thấy cấu trúc lúc này, mọi thứ, tôi!
54:11	K: But do you see that we were saying yesterday... fragmentary action is mechanical action.	K: Nhưng bạn có hiểu điều chúng ta nói hôm qua hành động manh mún là hành động máy móc.
54:19	S: That's right. It's there, Krishnaji. It's there, that's the way we are.	S: Đúng vậy. Nó đó, Krishnaji. Nó đó, là cách chúng ta sống.
54:24	K: And therefore political action can never solve any problems... human problems, or the scientist, as a fragment.	K: Và hành động chính trị không thể giải quyết vấn đề gì vấn đề con người, hay khoa học gia, như mảnh vụn.
54:36	S: Do you realise what you are saying? Let's really look at what you are saying. This is the way it is. This is the way life is!	S: Ngài có hiểu lời tôi nói? Hãy thực sự nhìn điều ngài nói đi. Đây là đường lối nó. Đây là lối sống!
54:42	K: Right.	K: Đúng.
54:43	S: Right? This is the way it is. Years and years and years.	S: Đúng à? Đó là đường lối nó. Năm này qua năm kia.
54:48	K: Therefore, why don't you change it?	K: Vậy, sao bạn không thay đổi nó?
54:54	S: That's right. But this is the way it is. We live in terms of our structures. We live in terms of our histories. We live in terms of our mechanics. We live in terms of our form. This is the way we live!	S: Đúng vậy. Nhưng đường lối nó vậy. Chúng ta sống trong vòng cấu trúc. Chúng ta sống trong vòng lịch sử. Chúng ta sống trong máy móc. Chúng ta sống trong hình thức. Đó là lối chúng ta sống!
55:06	K: As we were saying at Ojai... when the past meets the present... and ends there, a totally different thing takes place.	K: Khi chúng ta nói ở Ojai khi quá khứ gặp hiện tại và dứt ở kia, sự việc hoàn toàn khác xảy ra.
55:21	S: Yes. But the past doesn't meet the present so often.	S: Vâng. Nhưng quá khứ không thường gặp hiện tại.
55:27	K: This is taking place now!	K: Nó đang xảy ra!
55:29	S: Now it's coming, right now. We are seeing it now.	S: Nó đang đến, ngay đó. Chúng ta đang thấy nó.
55:34	K: Therefore can you stop there? S: We must see it totally.	K: Vậy bạn có thể dừng ở đó? S: Phải thấy nó trọn vẹn.
55:38	K: No. The fact, simple fact. The past meets the present. That's a fact.	K: Không. Sự kiện, đơn giản. Quá khứ gặp hiện tại. Là sự kiện.
55:48	B: How does the past meet the present? Let us go into that.	B: Làm sao quá khứ gặp hiện tại? Hãy tìm hiểu đi.
55:51	K: We have got four minutes.	K: Chúng ta có bốn phút.
55:52	S: How do you say the past meets the present? We've got two minutes now! (laughs)	S: Làm sao ngài nói quá khứ gặp hiện tại? Chúng ta còn hai phút! (cười)
56:06	B: Well, I think that the past meeting the present stops... the past is generally active in the present towards the future. Now, when the past meets the present then... the past stops acting. And what it means is that... thought stops acting so that order comes about.	B: À, tôi nghĩ quá khứ gặp hiện tại dừng lại quá khứ nói chung hoạt động ở hiện tại đến tương lai. Khi quá khứ gặp hiện tại thì quá khứ dừng hoạt động. Và cái có ý nghĩa là ý nghĩ dừng hoạt động nên trật tự xảy ra.
56:35	S: Do you think that the past meets the present... or the present meets the past?	S: Bạn nghĩ rằng quá khứ gặp hiện tại hay hiện tại gặp quá khứ?
56:39	K: No. How do you meet me? S: I meet you in the present.	K: Không. Bạn gặp tôi cách nào? S: Tôi gặp ngài ở hiện tại.
56:45	K: No. How do you meet me? With all the memories, all the images... the reputation, the words, the pictures, the symbol, all that... with that which is the past, you meet me now.	K: Không. Bạn gặp tôi cách nào? Với mọi ký ức, mọi hình ảnh danh tiếng, chữ nghĩa, hình, biểu tượng, mọi cái với quá khứ đó, bạn gặp tôi.
57:02	S: That's right. I come to you with a comfort...	S: Đúng. Tôi đến với ngài với dễ chịu...
57:05	K: No, no. The past is meeting the present.	K: Không, không. Quá khứ gặp hiện tại.
57:11	B: Aren't you saying that the past... S: That's right, go ahead.	B: Bạn không nói rằng quá khứ... S: Đúng, tiếp tục.
57:15	B: That the past should stop meeting the present?	B: Rằng quá khứ phải dừng gặp hiện tại?
57:17	S: No. He is not saying that. You can't say that!	S: Không. Ông ấy không nói thế. Bạn không thể nói thế!
57:20	K: I'm saying something, he's right...	K: Tôi nói điều gì, anh ta đúng...
57:22	S: (Laughs) I know but let him say it.	S: (Cười) Tôi biết nhưng để hắn nói.
57:25	K: What I'm trying to say is that the past meets the present.	K: Điều tôi cố nói là quá khứ gặp hiện tại.
57:29	S: And then?	S: Rồi sao?
57:30	K: Can the past end there? Not move forward.	K: Quá khứ có thể chấm dứt ở đó? Không đi tới.
57:34	S: Can it? But is that the right question? What is the past meeting the present? What is that action?	S: Có thể không? Nhưng câu hỏi đúng chứ? Quá khứ gặp hiện tại là gì? Hành động đó là gì?
57:44	K: I meet you with a picture. S: Why should I stop?	K: Tôi gặp bạn với hình ảnh. S: Tại sao tôi nên dừng?
57:49	K: I will show it to you. I meet you with the past, my memories... but you might have changed all that in the meantime. So I never meet you. I meet you with the past. S: Right. That's a fact.	K: Tôi sẽ chỉ bạn xem. Tôi gặp bạn với quá khứ, ký ức nhưng chắc lúc ấy bạn thay đổi cả rồi. Nên tôi không hề gặp bạn. Tôi gặp bạn với quá khứ. S: Đúng. Là sự kiện.
58:09	K: That's a fact. Now if I don't have that movement going on...	K: Là sự kiện. Nếu không có chuyển động ấy xảy ra...
58:16	S: But I do. K: Of course, you do. But I say that is disorder. I can't meet you then.	S: Nhưng tôi có. K: Dĩ nhiên, bạn có. Nhưng tôi nói đó là vô trật tự. Tôi không thể gặp bạn.
58:24	S: Right. How do you know that?	S: Đúng. Làm sao ngài biết thế?
58:29	K: I only know, I don't know it. I only know the fact that... when the past meets the present and continues... it is one of the factors... of time movement, bondage, all the fear, and so on. When there is the past meeting the present, and says yes... I am fully aware of this... completely aware of this movement, then it stops. Then I meet you as though... for the first time, there is something fresh... it's like a new flower coming out.	K: Tôi chỉ biết, tôi không biết. Tôi chỉ biết sự kiện khi quá khứ gặp hiện tại và tiếp tục nó là một tác nhân của chuyển động thời gian, trói buộc, mọi sợ hãi, v.v.. Khi có quá khứ gặp hiện tại, và nói vâng tôi hoàn toàn ý thức nó ý thức trọn vẹn chuyển động ấy, nó liền dừng. Rồi tôi gặp bạn như lần đầu tiên, có điều gì tươi tắn nó như bông hoa mới xuất hiện.
59:18	S: Yes.	S: Vâng.
59:24	K: I think... - we will go on tomorrow. We haven't really tackled... the root of all this... the root, the cause or the root... of all this disturbance, this turmoil... travail, anxiety - you follow?	K: Tôi nghĩ... - mai chúng ta sẽ tiếp. Chúng ta chưa thực giải quyết gốc rễ mọi cái này gốc, nguyên nhân hay gốc rễ của mọi phiền toái, rối loạn khổ nhọc, âu lo này - kịp không?
59:50	B: Why should the brain be in this wild disorder?	B: Tại sao não vô trật tự lung tung vậy?
59:53	K: I know, wild. You, who are a doctor, an analyst and all the rest of it... you have to ask that fundamental question - why? Why do human beings live this way?	K: Phải, rối quá. Bạn, là bác sĩ, nhà phân tích và v.v.. bạn phải đặt câu hỏi cơ bản ấy - tại sao? Tại sao con người sống lối ấy?
1:00:09	S: Right. Why do they? I ask that all the time. Why are human beings sick?	S: Đúng. Tại sao họ thế? Tôi luôn hỏi. Tại sao con người bịnh?
1:00:18	K: Time. B: Right. (Laughter)	K: Thời gian. B: Đúng. (Cười)