Krishnamurti - Trong Cô Đơn Bạn Có Thể Hoàn Toàn An Toàn

Krishnamurti Subtitles

BR76CTM4 - Trong Cô Đơn Bạn Có Thể Hoàn Toàn An Toàn
Buổi Thảo Luận thứ tư với Bohm và Shainberg
Brockwood Park, Anh Quốc
19 tháng Năm 1976

0:09	K: I don't think we answered yesterday the question... why human beings live the way they are living. I don't think we went into it sufficiently deeply. Did we answer it?	K: Tôi không nghĩ hôm qua chúng ta đã trả lời câu hỏi tại sao con người sống lối họ đang sống. Tôi không nghĩ chúng ta đã tìm hiểu đủ sâu. Chúng ta trả lời chưa?
0:29	S: We got to a point… we never answered that question. I left here feeling…	S: Chúng ta đến chỗ... chúng ta chưa hề trả lời. Tôi bỏ lại cảm giác...
0:35	K: No, I was thinking about it last night... I mean this morning rather... and it struck me that we hadn't answered it fully. We went into the question of 'Can thought observe itself'?	K: Không, tối qua tôi đã suy nghĩ về nó ý tôi đúng hơn là sáng nay và tôi chợt nảy ra là chúng ta chưa trả lời xong. Chúng ta tìm hiểu 'Ý nghĩ có thể quan sát chính nó'?
0:48	S: Right. B: Yes.	S: Đúng. B: Vâng.
0:51	K: But I think we ought to answer that question.	K: Nhưng tôi nghĩ chúng ta phải trả lời.
0:54	B: But I think that what we said was on the way to answering it. It was relevant to the answer.	B: Nhưng tôi nghĩ điều chúng ta đã nói là đang trả lời. Nó liên quan đến trả lời.
1:00	K: Yes, relevant. But it's not complete.	K: Vâng, liên quan. Nhưng không đầy đủ.
1:02	B: Yes.	B: Vâng.
1:05	S: No, it's not complete, it doesn't get hold of that issue... why do people live the way they do... and why don't they change? Why, knowing this, they don't change.	S: Không, không đầy đủ, chưa nắm được vấn đề tại sao con người sống lối ấy và tại sao họ không thay đổi? Tại sao, biết là, họ không thay đổi.
1:16	K: Yes. Could we go into that a little bit before we go on with…	K: Vâng. Chúng ta có thể tìm hiểu đôi chút trước khi tiếp tục...
1:24	S: Well, my immediate answer to that question was... that they like it, that it provides... we came up against that and sort of pulled away...	S: À, trả lời ngay cho vấn đề này là họ thích nó, nó cung cấp chúng ta gần như chống nó và hơi bị kéo đi...
1:34	K: I think it's much deeper than that, don't you? Because what is involved... ...economically, if you… if one actually transformed one's conditioning... the way one lives… economically you might find yourself... in a very difficult position. S: Right.	K: Tôi nghĩ nó sâu hơn thế, phải không? Bởi cái dính trong đó... ...về kinh tế, nếu bạn nếu bạn thực sự chuyển hóa qui định mình lối bạn sống về kinh tế bạn có lẽ thấy mình trong tình thế rất khó khăn. S: Đúng.
2:03	K: And also, it's going against the current. Completely against the current.	K: Và cũng, nó ngược lại thói thường. Hoàn toàn ngược lại thường tình.
2:11	B: Are you saying that it might lead... to a certain objective insecurity?	B: Ngài nói nó có thể dẫn đến bất an khách quan nào đó?
2:15	K: Objective insecurity.	K: Bất an khách quan.
2:17	B: It's not merely a matter of the imagination.	B: Không chỉ là vấn đề tưởng tượng.
2:18	K: No, actual insecurity.	K: Không, bất an thực.
2:21	B: Because a lot of things we were discussing yesterday... was some illusion of security or insecurity... but in addition there is some genuine...	B: Bởi rất nhiều việc chúng ta bàn hôm qua là ảo tưởng về an toàn và không an toàn. nhưng thêm vào đó có vài cái thực...
2:28	K: ...genuine insecurity. B: ...insecurity.	K: ...bất an thực. B: ...bất an.
2:32	K: And also, doesn't it imply that you have to stand alone.	K: Và cả, không hàm ý rằng bạn phải đứng một mình?
2:40	S: It definitely… you would be in a new… You would be in a totally different... position because you wouldn't be...	S: Rõ ràng...bạn ở vào cái mới... Bạn ở trong tình thế hoàn toàn khác bởi vì bạn không...
2:49	K: It's like, completely... - not isolated - away from the stream. And that means that you have to be alone... psychologically alone... and whether human beings can stand that.	K: Như, hoàn toàn... - không phải cô lập - ngoài dòng chảy. Và nghĩa là bạn phải một mình một mình về tâm lý và xem con người có thể đứng như thế.
3:11	S: Certainly this other is completely to be together.	S: Chắc chắn cái kia thì hoàn toàn cùng nhau.
3:14	K: That is herd instinct, which all the totalitarian people use... and also everything is together... be with people, don't be alone.	K: Đó là bản năng bầy đoàn, cái mà mọi nhà độc tài dùng và cũng mọi vật là cùng nhau đoàn kết lại, không một mình.
3:27	S: Be like them, be with them… It's all based on competition... in some way, I am better than you...	S: Giống như họ, như họ... Đều dựa trên tranh đua cách nào đó, tôi hơn bạn...
3:36	K: Of course, of course. All the Olympiad is all that.	K: Dĩ nhiên, dĩ nhiên. Các thế vận hội đều vậy.
3:39	B: Well, it's unclear because... in some sense we should be together... but not in that sense... K: Of course.	B: À, chưa rõ bởi vì nhưng nghĩa nào đó chúng ta cùng nhau nhưng không trong nghĩa... K: Dĩ nhiên.
3:46	B: Society, it seems to me, is giving us... some false sense of togetherness... which is really fragmentation.	B: Xã hội, hình như, cho chúng ta vài nghĩa sai lầm về cùng nhau mà thực sự là manh mún.
3:53	K: Yes, quite right.	K: Vâng, đúng vậy.
3:54	B: But it's called being together. It makes you feel that way, for a moment.	B: Nhưng được gọi là cùng nhau. Tạm thời nó cho bạn cảm giác vậy.
4:00	K: So would you say, one of the main reasons... that human beings don't want to... radically transform themselves... is that they are really frightened... of not to belong to a group... to a herd, to something definite... which implies standing completely alone? And I think from that aloneness you can only co-operate... not the other way round.	K: Vậy bạn nói, một trong các lý do chính mà con người không muốn chuyển hóa họ tận gốc là thực sự họ sợ rằng không thuộc về một nhóm một đoàn, điều gì xác định mà nó hàm ý hoàn toàn đứng một mình? Và tôi nghĩ bạn chỉ có thể hợp tác từ một mình không phải quay trở lại.
4:33	S: Certainly, empirically, people don't like... to be different, that we know, and empirically they…	S: Chắc chắn, theo kinh nghiệm, mọi người không thích khác nhau, chúng ta biết, và theo kinh nghiệm họ...
4:44	K: You must have seen on the television... Chinese boys training, the Russians... all the eastern satellite people... all of them training, training, never alone.	K: Chắc bạn phải xem trên TV... Thanh niên Trung quốc tập luyện, Nga tất cả bọn người hầu phương đông đều tập luyện, tập luyện, không hề một mình.
5:01	S: Right. B: Yes.	S: Vâng. B: Vâng.
5:04	K: I once talked to a FBI man. He came to see me and he said... 'Why is it that you walk alone all the time? Why are you so much alone? I see you among the hills walking alone… why?' You follow? He thought, that's very disturbing.	K: Có lần tôi nói với một anh FBI. Anh ta đến thăm tôi và nói... 'Tại sao ngài luôn luôn đi một mình? Tại sao ngài quá cô đơn? Tôi thấy ngài một mình đi trên đồi...tại sao?' Kịp không? Hắn nghĩ, vậy là quá buồn phiền.
5:30	B: I think, even anthropologists find that... in more primitive people... the sense of belonging to the tribe... is even stronger. They feel completely lost... their entire psychological structure... depends on being in the tribe.	B: Tôi nghĩ, các nhà nhân loại học tìm ra ở loài người rất sơ khai cảm giác tuỳ thuộc vào bộ lạc cũng rất mạnh. Họ cảm thấy mất hết toàn bộ cấu trúc tâm lý họ lệ thuộc vào ở trong bộ lạc.
5:45	K: And I think, that is one of the reasons why... we don't want to... we are frightened! After all, cling to the misery that you already know... than come into another kind of misery that you don't know.	K: Và tôi nghĩ, đó là một trong những lý do chúng ta không muốn chúng ta sợ hãi! Tóm lại, bám vào cái khổ mà bạn đã biết hơn là bước vào loại khổ khác mà bạn không biết.
6:02	S: That's right. But there is a whole action/reaction scheme. That is, by being with others... K: ...you're safe.	S: Đúng vậy. Nhưng có cả bộ khung hành động/phản ứng. Tức là, ở với người khác... K: ...bạn an toàn.
6:13	S: ...you're safe. And you're… it even goes further, there is an action... it's almost as if you could say that being with others... is the off-shoot of always living from... 'you're this, I compare myself with you and therefore... I'm together with you', sort of as the afterthought. You know what I mean? That is part of the circle.	S: ...bạn an toàn. Và bạn ngay cả đi xa hơn, có hành động hầu như bạn có thể nói ở với người khác là một phần của luôn luôn sống từ... 'bạn là vầy, tôi so sánh tôi với bạn và vì vậy tôi cùng với bạn', phần nào như ý nghĩ sau đó. Bạn biết ý tôi? Đó là một phần của vòng tròn.
6:41	B: Even if you leave off comparison... I think there is something deeper... in the sense that people feel this... togetherness, this sense of belonging... to the group, even if they are not comparing... they just feel it's safe, they will be taken care of... like your mother may have taken care of you... you are sort of gently supported, that fundamentally... it'll be all right because the group is large, it's wise... it knows what to do. I think there is a feeling like that, rather deep. The church may give that feeling.	B: Ngay cả nếu bạn bỏ so sánh tôi nghĩ có điều gì sâu hơn trong nghĩa mọi người cảm thấy cùng nhau này, cảm giác tuỳ thuộc vào nhóm, mặc dù họ không so sánh họ chỉ cảm thấy an toàn, họ sẽ được chăm nom như người mẹ có thể chăm lo cho bạn bạn phần nào được ủng hộ, cơ bản sẽ tốt đẹp bởi nhóm rộng lớn, khôn ngoan biết nên làm gì. Tôi nghĩ có cảm nhận như thế, khá sâu. Nhà thờ có thể cho cảm nhận ấy.
7:16	K: Yes. You've seen those animal pictures? They are always in herds.	K: Vâng. Bạn thấy ảnh những con thú kia? Chúng luôn trong đàn.
7:25	S: Except the mountain lion. Did you ever read about the lion? There have been some studies done... by this fellow Shaller, in which he shows that the lion… always, in lion groups... there is always one who goes off alone.	S: Trừ sư tử trên núi. Bạn có đọc về sư tử chưa? Đã có vài nghiên cứu do Shaller, ông ta chỉ ra rằng sư tử luôn luôn, trong đàn luôn có một con đi một mình.
7:40	K: Yes… S: You have read about that?	K: Vâng... S: Ngài đã đọc nó?
7:42	K: I've heard about it. B: Anyway, the cats are not…	K: Tôi đã nghe về nó. B: Tuy nhiên, mèo không...
7:46	K: The feeling of aloneness is much more... - it has got a great deal in it. It isn't just - I say, it is not isolation.	K: Cảm giác một mình rất lớn... - có rất nhiều trong nó. Không chỉ - tôi nói, không phải cô lập.
7:58	S: Right.	S: Đúng.
8:00	B: But, I was asking, people are seeking... that sense that from the group you have... some support from the whole. K: Of course.	B: Nhưng, tôi hỏi, mọi người tìm kiếm cảm giác ấy từ nhóm bạn có vài ủng hộ từ cả nhóm. K: Dĩ nhiên.
8:09	B: Now, isn't it possible that you are discussing an aloneness... in which you have a certain security? People are seeking in the group a kind of security... it seems to me, that can arise actually only in aloneness.	B: Giờ thì, không thể thảo luận về một mình sao? trong ấy bạn có an toàn gì? Mọi người tìm kiếm trong nhóm một loại an toàn hình như, thực sự nó chỉ khởi lên khi một mình.
8:24	K: Yes, that's right. In aloneness you can be completely secure.	K: Vâng, đúng vậy. Một mình, bạn có thể hết sức an toàn.
8:28	B: I wonder if we could discuss that because it seems... there is an illusion there... people sense that you might feel that you should... have a sense of security. K: Quite.	B: Không biết chúng ta có thể bàn nó, bởi hình như có ảo tưởng ở đó mọi người cho rằng bạn có thể thấy bạn nên có cảm giác an toàn. K: Đúng.
8:38	B: And they are looking for it in a group, the group being... representative of something universal.	B: Và họ tìm kiếm nó trong đoàn nhóm, nhóm là đại diện cho điều gì chung.
8:44	K: The group is not the universal.	K: Nhóm không phải toàn thể.
8:46	B: It isn't, but that's the way we think of it.	B: Không phải, nhưng chúng ta nghĩ thế.
8:48	K: Of course.	K: Dĩ nhiên.
8:49	B: The little child thinks the tribe is the whole world.	B: Trẻ nhỏ nghĩ bộ lạc là cả thế giới.
8:52	K: I mean, a human being as he lives this way... if he transforms himself, he becomes alone, he is alone. that aloneness is not isolation... and therefore it's a form of supreme intelligence.	K: Ý tôi, con người khi hắn sống lối ấy nếu hắn tự thay đổi, hắn thành cô đơn, hắn một mình. cô đơn ấy không phải cô lập và vì vậy nó là hình thức thông minh tối cao.
9:16	B: Yes, but could you go into that a little further... about it not being isolation... because at first when you say alone... the feeling is that I'm here, entirely apart. Right?	B: Vâng, nhưng ngài có thể đi sâu hơn chút về nó không là cô lập bởi thoạt nhìn khi ngài nói cô đơn cảm giác tôi ở đây, hoàn toàn tách biệt. Phải không?
9:25	K: It is not apart, no. B: That perhaps...	K: Không tách biệt, không. B: Đó có lẽ...
9:28	S: What do you think it is that a person experiences? There is one part of it that all people seem to gravitate... they have to be together, they have to be like other people. What would change that? That's one question. What would change anybody from that? And 2nd of all, why should anybody change from that? And 3rd of all, what does such a person... experience when they are alone? They experience isolation.	S: Ngài nghĩ sao, phải là ai đó kinh nghiệm? Có một phần là hình như mọi người bị hút họ phải ở cùng nhau, họ phải giống người khác. Cái gì thay đổi nó? Đó là vấn đề. Cái gì thay đổi ai đó ra khỏi nó? và kế đến, tại sao ai đó phải thay đổi khỏi nó? Và thứ ba là, người như thế kinh nghiệm gì khi họ một mình? Họ kinh nghiệm cô lập.
10:04	K: I thought we dealt with that fairly... thoroughly the other day. After all, when one realises... the appalling state of the world... and oneself - the disorder, the confusion, the misery... and all the rest of it, and when one says... there must be a total change... a total transformation, he has already begun... to move away from all that.	K: Tôi nghĩ chúng ta đã quan tâm nó khá toàn diện hôm trước. Rốt lại, khi bạn nhận ra tình trạng khủng khiếp của thế giới và chính bạn - vô trật tự, rối loạn, đau khổ và mọi thứ khác, và khi bạn nói phải có thay đổi hoàn toàn chuyển hóa hoàn toàn, bạn đã bắt đầu bước ra khỏi đó.
10:35	S: Right. But here he is altogether, being together.	S: Đúng. Nhưng ở đây, hắn ở chung, cùng nhau.
10:44	K: No. Being together, what does it really mean?	K: Không. Ở cùng nhau, thực sự nghĩa là gì?
10:47	S: I mean being in this group. K: Yes, what does it really mean?	S: Ý tôi là ở trong nhóm. K: Vâng, thực sự nghĩa là gì?
10:51	S: Being together is different from this having to be...	S: Ở cùng nhau là khác với phải là...
10:54	K: No. Identifying oneself with a group, and remain with a group... what does it mean? What is involved in it?	K: Không. Đồng hóa mình với nhóm, và ở cùng với nhóm. nghĩa là gì? Có gì dính trong đó?
11:03	S: That's right, what is involved in it. I think... one of the things that's involved in it... is what I said before. It sets up this comparison.	S: Đúng thế, cái gì dính trong đó. Tôi nghĩ một trong những điều dính trong đó là điều tôi đã nói rồi. Nó dựng lên so sánh.
11:11	K: No, no, apart from all that superficiality... what is involved in it? The group is me. I'm the group.	K: Không, không, ngoài mọi thứ cạn cợt ấy cái gì dính trong đó? Nhóm là tôi. Tôi là nhóm.
11:21	K: So therefore… It's like co-operating with myself.	K: Vậy thì... Nó như hợp tác với chính tôi.
11:27	B: I think you could say like... Descartes said 'I think, therefore I am'. Meaning that I think implies that I am there. 'I am in the group, therefore I am'. That's the sort of if I am not in the group, where am I?	B: Tôi nghĩ ngài có thể nói như... Descartes nói 'Tôi suy nghĩ, vậy tôi đây'. Nghĩa là tôi suy nghĩ hàm ý tôi có đó. 'Tôi ở trong nhóm, vậy tôi đây'. Đó gần như nếu không ở trong nhóm, tôi ở đâu?
11:38	K: Yes. B: In other words... I have no being at all. That's really the condition... of the primitive tribe, for most of the members anyway. So there is something deep there... because I feel that my very existence... my being psychologically... is implied in being first in the group. The group has made me. Everything about me has come from the group. Do you see? I say 'I am nothing without the group.'	K: Vâng. B: Nói cách khác... Tôi không sống gì hết. Đó thực sự là qui định của bộ lạc nguyên thuỷ, cho hầu hết thành viên. Vậy có điều gì sâu ở đó bởi tôi thấy hiện diện của tôi cuộc sống tâm lý tôi hàm ý trước tiên là ở trong nhóm. Nhóm làm nên tôi. Mọi điều về tôi đến từ đoàn nhóm. Bạn thấy không? Tôi nói 'Tôi không gì khác hơn nhóm.'
12:08	K: Yes, quite right. I am the group, in fact.	K: Vâng, rất đúng. Thực tế tôi là nhóm.
12:10	S: Right.	S: Đúng.
12:11	B: Therefore, if I am out of the group... I feel everything is collapsing. That seems to me is deeper than the question of competing... who is the chief, or who is the big shot or...	B: Vì vậy, nếu tôi ra ngoài nhóm tôi cảm thấy mọi việc sụp đổ. Đó hình như còn sâu hơn vấn đề tranh đua ai là thủ lĩnh, hay ai là sâu bọ hay...
12:24	S: Right. B: That's a secondary affair.	S: Đúng. B: Đó là việc thứ yếu.
12:27	S: Except that I wasn't really saying that... that was important so much... as I was saying that the very action... what I am trying to get at is some... of the moment to moment experience... of being in the group, which is occupied.	S: Trừ ra tôi không thực sự nói rằng nó quá quan trọng khi tôi nói rằng chính hành động điều mà tôi cố nắm là vài kinh nghiệm trong từng khoảnh khắc về ở trong đoàn nhóm, là bận rộn.
12:41	B: Could I say that... the more striking thing is what happens when... such a person is taken out of the group and he feels lost. In other words, all that stuff seems unimportant... because he doesn't know where he is.	B: Tôi có thể nói việc nổi bật hơn là điều xảy ra khi một người bị tách khỏi nhóm và hắn cảm thấy lạc lỏng. Nói cách khác, cả mớ ấy có vẻ không quan trọng bởi hắn không biết mình ở đâu.
12:52	S: Right. He doesn't know... he has no orientation.	S: Đúng. Hắn không biết... hắn không có hướng đi.
12:56	B: To life or to anything. S: Right.	B: Về cuộc sống hay điều gì. S: Đúng.
13:01	B: And therefore, the greatest punishment... that the group could make would be to banish him.	B: Và vì vậy, hình phạt lớn nhất mà nhóm có thể làm là đuổi hắn đi.
13:07	K: Yes, they used to do that. S: Oh, yes.	K: Vâng, họ thường làm thế. S: Ồ, vâng.
13:09	K: Look what's happening in Russia, when there is a dissenter... he's banished. S: Right, right.	K: Nhìn những gì xảy ra ở Nga, khi có người biệt giáo hắn bị lưu đày. S: Đúng, đúng.
13:15	K: Solzhenitsyn and Sakharov and all those people... are against the group.	K: Solzhenitsyn và Sakharov và những người chống lại nhóm.
13:20	S: Right. Right.	S: Đúng, đúng.
13:22	B: Because such a banishment sort of robs him of his being... it is almost like killing him, you see.	B: Bởi lưu đày như thế gần như cướp hắn cuộc sống gần giống như giết hắn, bạn xem.
13:27	K: Of course. I think that's where it is, the fear of being alone... alone is translated as being isolated from all this.	K: Dĩ nhiên. Tôi nghĩ chỗ đó là, sợ hãi ở một mình một mình được diễn dịch thành cô lập mọi thứ.
13:43	B: Could we say from the universal? The false universal.	B: Chúng ta có thể nói từ toàn thể? Sai lầm toàn thể.
13:46	K: Yes, from the universal.	K: Vâng, từ toàn thể.
13:49	B: It seems to me you are implying that if you are really alone... genuinely alone, then you are not isolated from the universe.	B: Hình như ngài hàm ý rằng nếu thực sự một mình đúng nghĩa một mình, ngài không cô lập với toàn thể.
13:54	K: Absolutely not - on the contrary! S: That's what he's saying.	K: Thực là không - trái lại! S: Ông ta nói thế.
13:58	B: That's what he's saying, but I mean… therefore we have to be free of this false universal first.	B: Ông ta nói vậy, nhưng ý tôi vậy chúng ta phải thoát khỏi cái toàn thể sai lầm trước.
14:03	S: This false identification… B: With the group.	S: Đồng hóa sai lầm... B: Với đoàn nhóm.
14:05	S: …identification with the group.	S: ...đồng hóa với nhóm.
14:07	B: Identification of the group as the universal, you see. Treating the group as if it were the universal support... of my being, or something.	B: Đồng hóa với nhóm như toàn thể, bạn thấy đó. Đối đãi với nhóm như nó là chỗ dựa chung cho cuộc sống, hay gì gì.
14:15	S: Right. There is something more to that. What's being said is that… When that localised identification... that I am the group, that 'me'... that false security is dropped, then one is opened up... to the participation in... B: In something.	S: Đúng. Còn có điều gì hơn thế. Điều đã được nói là... Khi sự đồng hóa địa phương ấy rằng tôi là nhóm, 'tôi' ấy an toàn giả rớt xuống, bạn liền mở cửa đến sự tham dự vào... B: Điều gì đó.
14:35	K: No, there is no question of participation... - you are the universe.	K: Không, không có vấn đề tham dự... - bạn là toàn thể.
14:38	S: You are that.	S: Bạn là nó.
14:40	B: I can remember as a child I felt that... I was in a certain town... I felt that was the whole universe... then I heard of another town beyond that which seemed... almost beyond the universe and it seemed... that must be the ultimate limits of all reality. So the idea of going beyond that... would not have occurred to me. And I think that's the way that the group is treated. We know abstractly it's not so... but in the feeling that you have... it's like the little child.	B: Tôi có thể nhớ lại thời bé tôi cảm thấy tôi ở trong thành phố tôi thấy nó như cả vũ trụ rồi tôi nghe về thành phố khác hơn nó hình như hầu như vượt cả vũ trụ và có vẻ phải có giới hạn sau cùng của mọi thực tại. Nên ý niệm về vượt khỏi nó chắc không xảy ra với tôi. Và tôi nghĩ đó là cách đoàn nhóm được đối đãi. Chúng ta mơ hồ biết nó không thế nhưng trong cảm giác bạn có nó như đứa trẻ con.
15:09	K: Therefore, is it that human beings love or… hold on to their own misery... confusion, and all the rest of it... because they don't know anything else?	K: Vậy thì, là con người yêu thương hay bám giữ đau khổ riêng rối loạn, và mọi thứ bởi họ không biết gì khác?
15:30	K: The known is safer than the unknown.	K: Cái biết an toàn hơn cái không biết.
15:33	S: Right. The known… yes.	S: Đúng. Cái biết... vâng.
15:39	K: Now, to be alone implies, doesn't it... to step out of the stream.	K: Giờ thì, cô đơn hàm ý, phải không bước ra khỏi dòng chảy.
15:48	S: Out of the known.	S: Khỏi cái biết.
15:50	K: Step out of the stream of this... utter confusion, disorder, sorrow... despair, hope, travail, all that... - to step out of all that.	K: Bước ra khỏi dòng chảy đó quá rối loạn, vô trật tự, đau khổ thất vọng, hy vọng, thống khổ, mọi thứ... - ra khỏi hết.
16:00	S: Right.	S: Đúng.
16:04	K: And if you want to go much deeper into that... to be alone implies, doesn't it... not to carry the burden of tradition with you at all.	K: Và nếu bạn muốn tìm hiểu nó sâu hơn một mình hàm ý, phải không không mang theo gánh nặng truyền thống gì cả.
16:21	B: Tradition being the group, then.	B: Truyền thống là nhóm đó.
16:23	K: Group. Tradition also being knowledge.	K: Nhóm. Truyền thống cũng là kiến thức.
16:26	B: Knowledge, but it comes basically from the group. Knowledge is basically collective. K: Collective.	B: Kiến thức, mà nó cơ bản đến từ đoàn nhóm. Kiến thức cơ bản là tích luỹ. K: Tích luỹ.
16:31	B: It is collected by everybody.	B: Nó do mọi người tích luỹ.
16:37	K: So to be alone implies total freedom. And when there is that great freedom, it's the universe.	K: Vậy một mình hàm ý tự do hoàn toàn. Và khi có tự do bao la ấy, nó là vũ trụ.
16:51	B: Could we go into that further because, to a person... who hasn't seen this, it doesn't look obvious.	B: Có thể tìm hiểu sâu hơn không, bởi với người chưa thấy thế, nó không có vẻ hiển nhiên.
17:00	S: It doesn't look obvious - I think, David is right there. To a person, to most people, I think... and I have tested this out recently... that the idea, or even... the deep feeling that you are the universe... that you don't have to do anything, that seems to be...	S: Nó không có vẻ hiển nhiên - tôi nghĩ, David đúng đó. Với người, đa số người, tôi nghĩ và tôi vừa thử nghiệm nó rằng ý niệm, hay ngay cả cảm nhận sâu rằng bạn là vũ trụ rằng bạn không cần phải làm gì, nó hình như...
17:25	K: Ah, sir, that's the most dangerous thing. That's the most dangerous thing to say. How can you say you are the universe... when you are in total confusion? When you are unhappy, miserable... anxious, jealous, envious, all that - how can you say... you are the universe? Universe implies total order.	K: À, đó là điều nguy hiểm nhất. Nói điều đó là nguy hiểm nhất. Làm sao có thể nói bạn là vũ trụ khi bạn quá sức rối loạn? Khi bạn bất hạnh, khổ sở lo âu, ghen ghét, ganh tị, mọi thứ - làm sao bạn có thể nói mình là vũ trụ? Vũ trụ hàm ý trật tự hoàn toàn.
17:56	B: Yes, the cosmos in Greek meant order.	B: Vâng, vũ trụ tiếng Hy lạp nghĩa là trật tự.
17:58	K: Order, of course. B: And chaos was the opposite.	K: Trật tự, dĩ nhiên. B: Và rối loạn là ngược lại.
18:01	K: Yes. S: But I...	K: Vâng. S: Nhưng tôi...
18:03	K: No, listen, universe, cosmos, means order.	K: Không, nghe này, vũ trụ, nghĩa là trật tự.
18:08	S: Right. B: And chaos is what we have.	S: Đúng. B: Và rối loạn là cái chúng ta có.
18:11	K: Chaos is what we live with. S: That's right.	K: Rối loạn là cái chúng ta sống. S: Đúng thế.
18:14	K: How can I think I have universal order in me? That's the good old trick... of the mind which says... 'Disorder is there, but inside you... there is perfect order, old boy'. That's an illusion. It's a concept which thought has put there... and it gives me a certain hope... and therefore it's an illusion, it has no reality. What has actual reality is my confusion.	K: Làm sao có thể nghĩ tôi có trật tự vũ trụ bên trong? Đó là trò cũ hay ho của trí óc nói... 'Vô trật tự đó, nhưng bên trong bạn có trật tự hoàn hảo, anh bạn'. Đó là ảo tưởng. Nó là quan niệm mà suy nghĩ nặn ra và nó cho tôi hy vọng nào đó và vì vậy nó là ảo tưởng, không thực tế. Điều thực tế là rối loạn.
18:54	S: Right.	S: Đúng.
18:56	K: My chaos. And I can imagine, I can project a cosmos.	K: Rối loạn. Và tôi có thể tưởng tượng, vẽ ra vũ trụ.
19:04	S: Right.	S: Đúng.
19:06	K: But that's equally illusory. So I must start with the fact of what I am.	K: Nhưng cũng là ảo tưởng. Nên tôi phải bắt đầu với tôi hiện là.
19:14	S: Right. K: Which is I'm in a chaos.	S: Đúng. K: Tức là tôi đang rối loạn.
19:19	S: I belong to a group. K: Chaos - chaos is the group.	S: Tôi thuộc về nhóm. K: Rối loạn - rối loạn là nhóm.
19:23	S: Right.	S: Đúng.
19:24	K: They have political leaders, religious - you follow? the whole thing is a chaos. So to move away from that into cosmos... which is total order, means... not that I'm alone, there is a total order... which is not associated with disorder, chaos. That is alone.	K: Họ có lãnh đạo chính trị, tôn giáo - kịp không? toàn bộ sự việc là rối loạn. Vậy ra khỏi đó vào vũ trụ là trật tự hoàn toàn, tức là không phải tôi cô đơn, có trật tự hoàn toàn mà không liên quan đến vô trật tự, rối loạn. Là một mình.
19:52	B: Yes, well, can we go into that. Suppose several people are doing that... in that state, moving into cosmos... into order, out of the chaos of society.	B: Vâng, có thể tìm hiểu nó? Giả sử vài người làm thế... trong trạng thái ấy, bước vào vũ trụ vào trật tự, ra khỏi rối loạn của xã hội.
20:02	K: That's right. B: Now then, are they all alone?	K: Đúng thế. B: Rồi thì, họ đều một mình?
20:05	K: No, of course. B: We want to get it clear.	K: Không, dĩ nhiên. B: Tôi muốn hiểu rõ hơn.
20:10	K: No, they don't feel alone there. There is only order.	K: Không, họ không thấy một mình ở đó. Chỉ có trật tự.
20:15	B: Are there different people?	B: Có những người khác nhau?
20:18	K: Sir, would you say, suppose - no, I can't suppose. We 3 are in cosmos, there is only cosmos... not you, Dr. Bohm, Dr. Shainberg and me.	K: Bạn nói, giả sử - không, tôi không thể giả sử. 3 chúng ta trong vũ trụ, chỉ có vũ trụ không có bạn, Dr. Bohm, Dr. Shainberg và tôi.
20:33	B: Therefore, we are still alone. K: Order is alone!	B: Vậy, chúng ta vẫn một mình. K: Trật tự là một mình!
20:37	B: Yes, I looked up the word 'alone' in the dictionary... basically it is 'all one'. K: All one, yes, yes.	B: Vâng, tôi tìm chữ 'một mình' trong từ điển cơ bản là 'toàn thể'. K: Toàn thể, vâng, vâng.
20:44	B: In other words, that there is no fragmentation.	B: Nói cách khác, đó là không manh mún.
20:46	K: Therefore there is no 3; and that is marvellous, sir.	K: Vì vậy không có 3; và đó là tuyệt vời.
20:54	S: But you jumped away there. We got chaos and confusion. That's what we got.	S: Nhưng bạn nhảy khỏi đó. Chúng ta có rối loạn và lộn xộn. Chúng ta có nó.
21:00	K: So, as we said, to move away from that... most people are afraid... which is to have total order. Alone, as he pointed out - all one. Therefore there is no fragmentation... when there is cosmos.	K: Nên, như đã nói, rời bỏ nó nhiều người sợ hãi tức là có trật tự hoàn toàn. Một mình, như anh chỉ ra - toàn thể. Vì vậy không có manh mún khi có vũ trụ.
21:19	S: Right. But most people are in confusion and chaos. That's all they know.	S: Đúng. Nhưng đa số người đang lộn xộn và rối loạn. Họ biết vậy đó.
21:25	K: So, move. How do you move away from that? That is the whole question.	K: Vậy, đi nào. Làm sao bạn ra khỏi đó? Đó là toàn bộ vấn đề.
21:30	S: That's the question. Here we are, in chaos and confusion... we are not over there.	S: Đó là vấn đề. Chúng ta đây, rối loạn và lộn xộn chúng ta không ở đàng kia.
21:36	K: No, because you may be frightened of that.	K: Không, bởi vì bạn có thể sợ nó.
21:39	S: May be frightened of that.	S: Có thể sợ hãi nó.
21:41	K: Frightened of an idea of being alone.	K: Sợ hãi ý niệm ở một mình.
21:44	S: How can you be frightened of an idea?	S: Làm sao bạn có thể sợ ý niệm?
21:45	B: That's easy.	B: Dễ thôi.
21:47	K: Aren't you frightened of tomorrow? Which is an idea.	K: Bạn không sợ ngày mai sao? Đó là ý niệm.
21:50	S: OK. So it's an idea.	S: Phải. Nó là ý niệm.
21:52	K: They are frightened of an idea which they've projected... which says 'my god I am alone... which means I have nobody to rely on'.	K: Họ sợ hãi ý niệm mà họ vẽ vời ra nói 'trời ơi tôi một mình nghĩa là tôi không có ai để nương tựa'.
22:04	S: Right, but that's an idea.	S: Đúng, nhưng đó là ý niệm.
22:06	B: Well, let's go slowly because also…	B: À, đi chậm thôi bởi vì cũng...
22:08	S: Yes, this is very important.	S: Vâng, việc này rất quan trọng.
22:10	B: We've said to a certain extent that it's genuinely so... you are not being supported by society anymore... You do have a certain genuine danger... because you have withdrawn from the web of society.	B: Chúng ta đã nói rộng ra rằng thực sự là bạn không còn được xã hội ủng hộ... Bạn có nguy hiểm thực sự nào đó bởi bạn rời khỏi mạng lưới xã hội.
22:22	K: Yes. If you are a Protestant... in a Catholic country it becomes very difficult.	K: Vâng. Nếu bạn là Tin lành ở xứ Cơ đốc giáo là trở nên rất khó khăn.
22:29	S: I think we are confused here. I really do, because... if we've got confusion, if we've got chaos...	S: Tôi nghĩ chúng ta rối loạn. Tôi thực sự vậy, bởi nếu chúng ta rối loạn, nếu lộn xộn...
22:37	K: No. Not 'if', it is so.	K: Không. Không 'nếu', là nó.
22:40	S: It is so, OK - I go with you. Now, we've got chaos and confusion... that's what we've got. Now, if you have an idea about being alone... while in chaos and confusion... that's just another idea, another thought... another part of the chaos. K: Yes, that's all.	S: Là nó, phải - đồng ý với ngài. Giờ thì chúng ta lộn xộn và rối loạn chúng ta có vậy. Nếu bạn có ý niệm về một mình khi đang rối loạn và lộn xộn đó chỉ là ý niệm khác, ý nghĩ khác phần khác của lộn xộn. K: Vâng, vậy thôi.
22:57	S: Is that right? K: That's right.	S: Phải vậy không? K: Đúng thế.
22:58	S: OK. Now, that's all we have got; is chaos and confusion.	S: Phải. Chúng ta có vậy; lộn xộn và rối loạn.
23:02	B: Wait. I feel… Watch the question of language... because when you use the word 'all', it closes things.	B: Khoan. Tôi thấy... Xem vấn đề ngôn ngữ bởi khi ngài dùng chữ 'toàn thể', nó đóng lại.
23:08	S: OK. All right.	S: Phải. Được rồi.
23:10	B: We were saying yesterday that language has to be... more free in its usage, a bit poetic perhaps... and if you use this word 'all', you have to watch it.	B: Hôm qua chúng ta nói ngôn ngữ phải dùng khá thoáng, có lẽ một ít chất thơ và nếu ngài dùng chữ 'toàn thể', ngài nên xem lại.
23:21	S: All right. But we have this. We have chaos. B: We have chaos.	S: Được rồi. Nhưng chúng ta có nó. Chúng ta rối loạn. B: Chúng ta rối loạn.
23:25	S: OK. Now, that's what we have. Now what is... I have an idea, let me say what my idea is... that most people are… let's say, unaware... unwilling, don't believe in... don't know anything about this 'all one'.	S: Phải. Chúng ta có vậy. Cái gì tôi có ý niệm, nói xem ý niệm là gì đa số người...ví dụ, không ý thức không muốn, không tin vào không biết gì về 'toàn thể'.
23:48	K: I'm not talking about that. We're not talking about that.	K: Tôi không nói về nó. Chúng ta không nói về nó.
23:51	S: Right, we don't have that. K: No.	S: Đúng, chúng ta không có nó. K: Không.
23:53	S: All we have right now is chaos.	S: Mọi cái chúng ta hiện có là rối loạn.
23:56	B: Leave out the word 'all'.	B: Bỏ chữ 'toàn thể' đi.
23:58	S: OK. We've got chaos. (Laughter)	S: Phải. Chúng ta rối loạn. (Cười)
24:03	K: Chaos. Now, being in chaotic condition... to move away from that... they have the feeling that they will be alone.	K: Rối loạn. Trong tình trạng rối loạn rời khỏi nó họ cảm thấy họ sẽ cô đơn.
24:16	S: Right. B: In the sense of isolated.	S: Đúng. B: Trong cảm giác cô lập.
24:18	B: Not the sense of 'all one'. K: Isolated.	B: Không phải cảm giác 'toàn thể'. K: Cô lập.
24:21	S: That's what I am getting at. K: They will be lonely.	S: Tôi hiểu điều ấy. K: Họ sẽ cô đơn.
24:24	S: That's right.	S: Đúng thế.
24:26	K: Isolated. Of that they are frightened.	K: Cô lập. Họ sợ hãi điều đó.
24:29	S: Not frightened - in terror.	S: Không phải sợ - kinh khiếp.
24:31	K: Therefore they say 'I would rather stay where I am... in my little pond, rather than face isolation'.	K: Nên họ nói 'Tôi nên ở lại vũng nước nhỏ bé này, hơn là giáp mặt với cô độc'.
24:41	S: That's right.	S: Đúng vậy.
24:42	K: And that may be one of the reasons... that human beings don't radically change.	K: Và đó có thể là một lý do mà con người không thay đổi tận gốc.
24:47	S: That's right.	S: Đúng thế.
24:48	B: Like this primitive tribe, the worst punishment... is to be banished, or isolated.	B: Như bộ lạc nguyên sơ, trừng phạt tệ nhất là bị đuổi đi, hay cô lập.
24:53	S: You don't have to go to a primitive tribe, I see people... and talk to people all the time... patients come to me and say... 'Look, Saturday night came, I couldn't stand to be alone... I called up 50 people, looking for someone to be with'.	S: Không cần đến bộ lạc nguyên thuỷ, tôi gặp mọi người và luôn nói chuyện với họ bịnh nhân đến và nói với tôi... 'Này, tối chủ nhật, tôi không thể chịu nổi cô đơn tôi gọi đến 50 người, để tìm một ai làm bạn'.
25:05	B: Yes, that's much the same. S: 'I had to join this group'.	B: Vâng, cũng y như thế. S: 'Tôi phải gia nhập nhóm này'.
25:08	B: It's much the same. I think it comes... in a more simple and purer form there... people just frankly admit it and they know that's the case.	B: Y như vậy. Tôi nghĩ nó đến với hình thức đơn giản và rõ ràng hơn mọi người công nhận thẳng thắn và biết tình cảnh đó.
25:14	S: Right.	S: Đúng.
25:15	K: So, that may be one of the reasons... why human beings don't change. The other is, we are so heavily conditioned... to accept things as they are. I mean, we don't say to ourselves... 'Why should I live this way?'	K: Vậy, đó có thể là một lý do tại sao con người không thay đổi. Cái kia là, chúng ta bị qui định quá nặng để chấp nhận sự việc y vậy. Ý tôi, chúng ta không hỏi chính mình... 'Tại sao tôi sống kiểu này?'
25:41	S: That's certainly true. We are definitely conditioned to believe... that this is all it can be.	S: Thật đúng như thế. Chúng ta bị qui định để tin rằng đây là mọi cái có thể.
25:48	B: Well, that's important. That's an explanation... 'We are conditioned to believe... that this is all that is possible'. This word 'all' is one of the traps that holds us...	B: Nào, quan trọng đây. Đó là giải thích... 'Chúng ta bị qui định để tin rằng đó là mọi cái có thể'. Chữ 'tất cả' là cái bẫy giữ chúng ta...
25:55	S: Maybe that's the very fact. Right.	S: Có lẽ đó là thực tế. Đúng.
25:56	B: If you say 'This is all that can be'... then what can you do?	B: Nếu bạn nói 'Đó là mọi cái có thể' vậy bạn có thể làm gì?
26:00	K: Nothing. Nothing.	K: Không gì. Không gì.
26:01	B: You see, this use of language that... This way of using language may be a chain.	B: Bạn xem, dùng ngôn ngữ ấy... Lối dùng chữ ấy có thể là sợi xích.
26:06	K: Quite right, sir. B: You have to watch that word…	K: Đúng vậy. B: Bạn phải nhìn lại chữ ấy...
26:08	S: It is the condition. B: But the word 'all'...	S: Đó là qui định. B: Nhưng chữ 'tất cả'...
26:11	K: That's what he is pointing out. B: The word 'all'...	K: Điều anh ta chỉ ra đó. B: Chữ 'tất cả'...
26:15	K: When you say 'This is all I know'... you've already stopped.	K: Khi nói 'đó là mọi cái tôi biết' bạn đã dừng lại.
26:19	S: Right.	S: Đúng.
26:19	B: Because what does the word 'all' do. It closes everything. It says that this thing is 'all' of reality. It's got to be real.	B: Bởi chữ 'tất cả' làm thế. Nó đóng cửa hết. Nó nói rằng cái này là 'cả' thực tại. Nó phải thật.
26:28	B: One thing is that it turns an idea into reality, apparently. It gives that sense of reality to the idea... because if you say that's 'all' there is... then that has to be real, see what I mean?	B: Một điều là hình như nó biến ý niệm thành hiện thực. Nó cho cảm giác hiện thực vào ý niệm bởi nếu nói 'tất cả' đó có thì nó phải là thực, hiểu ý tôi không?
26:38	S: Yes, I think that's a very good point. That's very much like... the points that we've been making where... the very act of thinking, that thought is complete… a thought becomes reality… So, again the language itself is the condition.	S: Vâng, tôi nghĩ đó là điểm rất hay. Nó rất giống như vấn đề mà chúng ta vừa nói, chỗ chính hoạt động suy nghĩ, ý nghĩ ấy là đầy đủ ý nghĩ thành hiện thực... Vậy, ngôn ngữ chính nó lại là qui định.
26:57	K: So, shall we say... human beings don't radically transform themselves... they're frightened of being isolated from the group... banished from the group. That's one reason. And also traditionally we are so conditioned... that we would rather... accept things as they are, our misery, our chaos… all the rest of it, and not say... 'For god's sake, let me change this'.	K: Vậy, chúng ta sẽ nói con người không thay đổi tận gốc chính họ họ sợ bị cô lập khỏi nhóm bị đuổi khỏi nhóm. Đó là một lý do. Và cũng truyền thống, chúng ta quá qui định rằng tốt hơn chúng ta chấp nhận sự vật y vậy, khổ sở, rối loạn mọi thứ, và đừng nói... 'Lạy trời, để tôi thay đổi nó'.
27:30	S: Right.	S: Đúng.
27:33	B: Well, we have to get out... of this conviction that the way things are is all that can be…	B: Nào, chúng ta phải bước ra khỏi niềm tin chắc rằng mọi việc là chỉ có thể thế...
27:37	K: Yes, that's right. The religions have pointed this out... by saying there is another world - aspire to that. This is a transient world, it doesn't matter. Live as best as you can in your sorrow... but hand over your sorrow to Jesus, or Christ or somebody... and you will be perfectly happy in the next world.	K: Vâng, đúng vậy. Các tôn giáo đã chỉ ra thế khi nói có thế giới khác - mong mỏi đến đó. Đây là thế giới tạm thời, không hề gì. Hãy sống tốt nhất có thể trong đau khổ và phó thác đau khổ bạn cho Giê su, hay Ky tô hay ai đó và bạn sẽ hoàn toàn hạnh phúc ở thế giới kia.
28:06	S: Right.	S: Đúng.
28:08	K: So, the communists say there is no next world... but make the best of this world.	K: Nên, cộng sản nói không có thế giới kia mà làm cho tốt thế giới này.
28:13	B: I think they would say that there is happiness... in the future in this world.	B: Tôi nghĩ họ nói rằng có hạnh phúc trong tương lai ở thế giới này.
28:17	K: Yes, yes. Sacrifice your children… everything, for a future; which is exactly the same thing.	K: Vâng, vâng. Hy sinh con cái bạn mọi thứ, cho tương lai; chính xác cùng một thứ.
28:26	B: But it seems that it's sort of a transformation... of the same thing that... if we say we have this society as it is... and we want to give it up but we invent something similar...	B: Nhưng hình như nó là loại thay đổi cùng một thứ mà nếu nói chúng ta có xã hội này như vậy và chúng ta bỏ nó rồi tạo ra gì đó giống vậy...
28:39	K: Yes, quite. B: ...to go to.	K: Vâng, đúng. B: ...để đi đến.
28:43	S: We have to invent, it has to be similar... if we are inventing it - out of the system.	S: Chúng ta phải tạo ra, nó phải giống nếu chúng ta tạo nó - từ hệ thống.
28:47	B: Yes, but it seems that it's an important point... it's a subtle way of not... not being alone.	B: Nhưng hình như nó là vấn đề quan trọng là cách khéo léo để không không cô đơn.
28:55	K: Quite right.	K: Đúng vậy.
28:56	S: You mean to go ahead and make it out of the old ideas?	S: Ý bạn là tiếp tục và tạo nó ra từ ý niệm cũ?
29:00	B: Yes. To make heaven, or the future.	B: Vâng. Tạo ra thiên đàng, hay tương lai.
29:03	K: So, what will make human beings change, radically?	K: Vậy, điều gì làm thay đổi con người tận gốc?
29:11	S: I don't know. I think that this is such… you see, even the idea that you are suggesting here... is that they say it can't be different... or it's all the same - that is part of the system itself.	S: Tôi không biết. Tôi nghĩ nó là ngài xem, ngay cả ý niệm mà ngài gợi ra đây là họ nói nó không thể khác hay như nhau - nó là một phần của chính hệ thống.
29:24	K: Agreed. Now, wait. May I ask you a question? Why don't you change? What is preventing you?	K: Đồng ý. Khoan. Tôi có thể hỏi một câu? Tại sao bạn không thay đổi? Cái gì ngăn cản bạn?
29:37	S: I would say that is... it's a tough question. I suppose the answer would be that... I don't know how to answer it.	S: Tôi nói nó là... một câu hỏi khó. Tôi giả sử câu trả lời là tôi không biết trả lời sao.
30:01	K: Because you've never asked yourself that question. Right?	K: Bởi bạn chưa hề hỏi câu đó với chính mình. Phải không?
30:07	S: Not radically.	S: Chưa tận gốc.
30:11	K: We are asking basic questions.	K: Chúng ta hỏi những câu cơ bản.
30:15	S: Right. I don't really know the answer to the question.	S: Đúng. Tôi thực sự không biết trả lời câu hỏi.
30:21	K: Now sir, move away from that. Is it as our structure… as our whole society, all religion... all culture, is based on thought... and thought says 'I can't do this... therefore an outside agency... is necessary to change me'.	K: Giờ thì, ra khỏi đó đi. Nó như cấu trúc chúng ta như xã hội chúng ta, mọi tôn giáo mọi văn hóa, đều dựa trên ý nghĩ và ý nghĩ nói 'Tôi không thể làm vì vậy tác nhân bên ngoài là cần thiết để thay đổi tôi'.
30:46	K: Whether the outside agency is... the environment, the leader, Hitler, this... or Stalin and Mao, or somebody outside, or god. God is your own projection of yourself... obviously. And you believe in god... you believe in Mao, you believe - but you are still the same.	K: Dù tác nhân bên ngoài là hoàn cảnh, lãnh đạo, Hitler, cái này hay Stalin và Mao, hay ai đó bên ngoài, hay thượng đế. Thượng đế là điều nghĩ ra của riêng bạn dĩ nhiên. Và bạn tin vào thượng đế bạn tin vào Mao, bạn tin - nhưng bạn vẫn y nguyên.
31:12	S: That's right. Right.	S: Đúng vậy. Đúng.
31:14	K: You may identify with the State and so on, but you are still... good old 'me' there is operating. So, is it that thought doesn't see its own limit... and know, realise, it cannot change itself? Realise it!	K: Bạn có thể đồng hóa mình với Quốc gia, v.v.., nhưng vẫn cái 'tôi' cũ mèm kia hoạt động. Vậy, có phải ý nghĩ không thấy giới hạn nó... và biết, nhận ra, nó không thể tự thay đổi? Biết nó đi!
31:42	B: Well, I think that something more subtle happens. Thought loses track of something and... it doesn't see... that it itself is behind all this.	B: À, tôi nghĩ điều gì tinh tế hơn diễn ra. Ý nghĩ mất dấu điều gì và nó không thấy rằng chính nó đàng sau mọi thứ.
31:59	K: We said that, thought has produced all this chaos.	K: Chúng ta đã nói, ý nghĩ tạo ra mọi rối loạn.
32:02	B: But thought doesn't really see it... you know, abstractly. But I think, you see, in its bones.	B: Nhưng ý nghĩ không thực sự thấy nó một cách trừu tượng. Nhưng tôi nghĩ, ngài xem, chắc chắn.
32:08	S: What about the whole business that thought... what thought does in fact is... it communicates through gradual change.	S: Thế nào về toàn bộ sự việc mà ý nghĩ điều mà ý nghĩ làm thực tế là nó trao đổi nhau bằng thay đổi từ từ.
32:16	K: That's all invention of thought.	K: Đó là mọi thứ ý nghĩ tạo ra.
32:18	S: Yes, but that's where I think the hook is.	S: Vâng, nhưng tôi nghĩ đó là chỗ cạm bẫy.
32:21	K: No, sir, please, just listen. S: Sure.	K: Không, nào, nghe thôi. S: Chắc rồi.
32:24	K: Thought has put this world together. Technologically as well as psychologically. And the technological world is all right, leave it alone... we won't even discuss it - it would become too absurd. So, psychologically thought has built... all this world, in me and outside me... the churches, society and so on. Does thought realise it has made this mess, this chaos?	K: Ý nghĩ xếp đặt thế giới này. Kỹ thuật cũng như tâm lý. Và thế giới kỹ thuật tốt thôi, để nó đó chúng ta không bàn - nó trở thành quá vô lý. Vậy, về tâm lý ý nghĩ đã dựng lên thế giới này, trong tôi và ngoài tôi nhà thờ, xã hội, v.v.. Ý nghĩ có nhận ra nó gây lộn xộn, rối loạn?
33:03	B: I would say it doesn't. It tends to look on this chaos as... independently existent... K: But it's its baby!	B: Tôi nói nó không. Nó có khuynh hướng nhìn rối loạn như tồn tại độc lập... K: Nhưng là con đẻ nó!
33:10	B: It is, but it's very hard for it to see that. We were discussing that... at the end of the hour yesterday.	B: Đúng, nhưng rất khó mà thấy thế. Chúng ta bàn luận nó vào cuối giờ ngày hôm qua.
33:16	K: Yes, we are coming back to that.	K: Vâng, chúng ta trở lại chỗ đó.
33:18	B: This question of how thought gives a sense of reality. We were saying technology deals... with something that thought made... but it is actually an independent reality once it's made.	B: Câu hỏi là làm sao ý nghĩ cho cảm giác thực tại. Chúng ta nói kỹ thuật xử sự với điều gì ý nghĩ tạo ra nhưng nó thực là thực tại độc lập hễ được làm ra.
33:31	K: Made it, like the table, like those cameras.	K: Làm ra, như cái bàn, như máy ảnh.
33:34	B: Yes. But you could say that thought also creates a reality... which it calls independent but isn't. I thought of a good example that's the Corporation.	B: Vâng. Nhưng có thể nói ý nghĩ cũng tạo ra thực tại gọi là độc lập nhưng không phải. Tôi nghĩ ví dụ hay là Liên đoàn.
33:48	B: People are working for the Corporation, it makes money... it loses money, they strike against the Corporation and so on. But actually you could say, where is the Corporation? It's not in the buildings because... K: They are part of it.	B: Mọi người làm việc cho liên đoàn, nó làm ra tiền nó mất tiền, họ bãi công chống Liên đoàn, v.v.. Nhưng thực tế bạn có thể hỏi, Liên đoàn ở đâu? Nó không ở tòa nhà kia bởi... K: Họ là một phần nó.
34:01	B: If all the people were gone the buildings would be nothing... and if the buildings all burnt down... the corporation could still exist... as long as people think it exists.	B: Nếu mọi người đi hết toà nhà sẽ không là gì và nếu toà nhà cháy rụi liên đoàn sẽ vẫn tồn tại bao lâu mọi người nghĩ nó còn.
34:10	S: Right. And it pays taxes, the Corporation... pays taxes, not the individual.	S: Đúng. Và nó đóng thuế, Liên đoàn đóng thuế, không phải cá nhân.
34:14	K: So, does thought realise, see... aware - that it has created this chaos?	K: Vậy, ý nghĩ có nhận ra, thấy ý thức - rằng nó tạo ra rối loạn?
34:23	S: No.	S: Không.
34:25	K: Why not? But you sir, do you realise it?	K: Tại sao không? Nhưng, bạn có hiểu không?
34:35	S: I realise that thought... K: Not you - does thought? You see how you…? I have asked you a different question... does thought, which is you... thinking, does your thinking realise... the chaos it has created?	S: Tôi hiểu là ý nghĩ... K: Không phải bạn - ý nghĩ kia? Bạn xem làm sao bạn...? Tôi hỏi bạn câu khác ý nghĩ, là bạn đó suy nghĩ, suy nghĩ bạn có nhận ra rối loạn nó đã gây ra?
34:57	B: Thinking tends to attribute the chaos to something else... either to something outside, or to 'me' who is inside. At most, I would say that I have done it... but then thinking is attributing... saying that I am doing the thinking. Do you see what I am driving at? K: Yes.	B: Suy nghĩ có khuynh hướng quy tội rối loạn cho gì khác cả điều gì bên ngoài, hay cái 'tôi' bên trong. Tối đa, tôi nói là tôi đã làm nó nhưng suy nghĩ cho là nói rằng tôi đang làm suy nghĩ. Ngài có hiểu ý tôi không? K: Vâng.
35:16	B: That there is 'something' thinking. I was going to say that it's like the Corporation... thinking has invented a sort of a Corporation... who is supposed to be responsible for thinking. We could call it 'Thinking Incorporated'!	B: Rằng có 'cái gì' suy nghĩ. Tôi sẽ nói rằng nó giống như Liên hiệp suy nghĩ đã tạo ra một loại liên hiệp kẻ phải trách nhiệm cho suy nghĩ. Chúng ta có thể gọi nó 'Tập đoàn suy nghĩ'!
35:28	K: 'Thinking Incorporated' - quite, quite.	K: 'Tập đoàn suy nghĩ' - đúng, đúng.
35:30	B: And, you see, the Corporation is supposed to be thinking.	B: Và, ngài xem, Liên hiệp là phải suy nghĩ.
35:35	S: Yes, yes.	S: Vâng, vâng.
35:36	B: So, we attribute, we give credit... for thought to this corporation called 'me'.	B: Vậy, chúng ta cho là, tin vào ý nghĩ là liên hiệp gọi là 'tôi'.
35:41	S: That's a good way to look at it, yes.	S: Đó là cách hay để nhìn nó, vâng.
35:44	K: Thought has created me.	K: Ý nghĩ tạo ra cái tôi.
35:46	S: It creates an Institution. B: …but also thought has said... that me is not thought, but a reality independent of thought.	S: Nó tạo ra Tổ chức. B: ...nhưng ý nghĩ cũng nói cái tôi không phải là ý nghĩ, mà là thực tại độc lập.
35:52	K: Of course, of course.	K: Dĩ nhiên, dĩ nhiên.
35:53	B: Thought treats the corporation... as if it were there, just standing... like the buildings or the table. It says' it is a reality', it is not a mere... I think it's in this question of reality, there are... certain realities which are independent of thought… but there are certain things which are appearances... like if you are standing on a cliff looking... at the ocean, you see all the play of light... which is not an independent reality... but it's due to the sky, the sea, and me... all interrelated. K: Of course.	B: Ý nghĩ đối đãi liên hiệp như nó ở đó, chỉ đứng như toà nhà hay cái bàn. Nó nói 'đó là thực tại', không chỉ là... Tôi nghĩ trong vấn đề thực tại, có vài thực tại nào đó độc lập nhưng có vài việc là bề ngoài như bạn đứng trên vách đá nhìn ngắm biển, bạn thấy mọi chơi đùa của ánh sáng nó không là thực tại độc lập mà do bầu trời, biển, và tôi liên kết lại. K: Dĩ nhiên.
36:26	B: So, it's important to keep clear... whether it's a reality that arises... through this whole… it's dependent on this whole movement... or whether it stands self-generated, independent. Thought is treating 'me' as an independent reality.	B: Vậy, quan trọng là rõ ràng xem thực tại khởi lên qua toàn thể này... nó lệ thuộc toàn bộ chuyển động này hay xem nó có đứng tự phát, độc lập. Ý nghĩ đối đãi 'tôi' như thực tại độc lập.
36:44	K: Of course.	K: Dĩ nhiên.
36:45	B: And thought is saying that it's coming from 'me'... and therefore it doesn't take credit for what it does.	B: Và ý nghĩ nói rằng nó đến từ 'tôi' và vì vậy nó không nhận chịu điều gì nó làm.
36:53	K: To me, thought has created the 'me'.	K: Với tôi, ý nghĩ tạo ra cái 'tôi'.
36:56	S: That's right.	S: Đúng vậy.
36:57	K: And so the 'me' is not separate from thought. It is the structure of thought. The nature of thought that has made 'me'. Now, does thought, does your thinking... or does your thought realise this?	K: Và vì vậy cái 'tôi' không rời ý nghĩ. Nó là cấu trúc của ý nghĩ. Bản chất của ý nghĩ làm nên cái 'tôi'. Giờ thì, ý nghĩ, suy nghĩ có hay ý nghĩ có nhận ra vậy?
37:20	S: I would say yes and no. K: No, no.	S: Tôi nói có và không. K: Không, không.
37:23	S: It's like in flashes it does. K: No, not in flashes. You don't see... that table in flashes - it is always there.	S: Nó như trong ánh chớp. K: Không, không trong ánh chớp. Bạn không thấy cái bàn trong ánh chớp - nó luôn ở đó.
37:37	S: I think what actually happens though... is that you see the action… I wonder, it seems as though... - if we could be honest about this... completely true about it, what do we see when… what happens... or what is the actuality of thought seeing this creation?	S: Tôi nghĩ điều thực sự xảy ra dù là ngài thấy hành động... Tôi tự hỏi, hình như dù... - nếu có thể thành thực việc này hoàn toàn thực về nó, chúng ta thấy gì khi điều gì xảy ra hay thực tế của ý nghĩ nhìn hành động ấy là gì?
38:01	K: No. We asked a question yesterday, we stopped there... Does thought see itself in movement?	K: Không. Hôm qua chúng ta hỏi, chúng ta dừng ở đó... Ý nghĩ có thấy chính nó chuyển động?
38:09	S: Right.	S: Đúng.
38:11	K: The movement has created the 'me'... created the chaos, created the division... created the conflict, jealousy, anxiety, fear - all that.	K: Chuyển động tạo ra cái 'tôi' tạo ra rối loạn, tạo ra phân chia tạo ra xung đột, ghen tị, lo âu, sợ hãi - mọi thứ.
38:20	S: Right. Now, what I'm asking is another question, yesterday... we came to a moment where we said 'thought stops'.	S: Đúng. Giờ, tôi hỏi là câu hỏi khác, hôm qua chúng ta đến chỗ chúng ta nói 'ý nghĩ dừng'...
38:29	K: No, that's much later. Please just stick to one thing.	K: Không, đó là lúc sau. Hãy nắm một việc thôi.
38:34	S: OK, but thought - what I'm trying to get at is... What is the actuality of thought seeing itself...	S: Phải, nhưng ý nghĩ - điều tôi cố gắng hiểu là... Thực tế ý nghĩ thấy chính nó là gì...
38:41	K: Tell me. You want me to describe it.	K: Nói xem. Bạn muốn tôi diễn tả nó.
38:45	S: No, I don't want you to describe it. I am trying to get at is... what is my actuality. What is the actuality that thought sees? And as I observe this... - we get into language here, the problem of language... but it seems that thought sees and forgets.	S: Không, tôi không muốn ngài diễn tả nó. Tôi cố gắng hiểu nó là thực tế là gì. Thực tế ý nghĩ thấy gì? Và khi tôi quan sát nó... - chúng ta vào ngôn ngữ đây, vấn đề ngôn ngữ nhưng hình như ý nghĩ thấy và quên đi.
39:03	K: No, please. I am asking a very simple question. Don't complicate it. Does thought see the chaos it has created? That's all. Which means... Is thought aware of itself as a movement? Not, 'I am aware of thought as a movement'. The 'I' has been created by thought.	K: Không, nào. Tôi hỏi câu rất đơn giản. Đừng làm phức tạp nó. Ý nghĩ có thấy rối loạn nó tạo ra không? Vậy thôi. Nghĩa là... Ý nghĩ có thấy nó như chuyển động? Không phải 'tôi ý thức ý nghĩ chuyển động'. Cái 'tôi' do ý nghĩ tạo ra.
39:40	B: I think the question that is relevant is... Why does thought keep on going? Why does it sustain itself? Because as long as it sustains itself... it does produce something... like an independent reality, an illusion of one.	B: Tôi nghĩ câu hỏi thích hợp là... Tại sao ý nghĩ cứ tiếp tục? Tại sao nó cứ duy trì nó? Bởi vì hễ nó còn giữ nó nó tạo ra điều gì như thực tại độc lập, ảo tưởng về một.
39:53	K: Why does thought...	K: Tại sao ý nghĩ...
39:55	B: Why does thought keep on going?	B: Tại sao ý nghĩ cứ tiếp tục?
39:59	S: What is my relationship to thought?	S: Tôi liên hệ gì với ý nghĩ?
40:03	K: You are thought. There is not a 'you' related to 'thought'.	K: Bạn là ý nghĩ. Không có 'tôi' liên hệ với 'ý nghĩ'.
40:09	B: That's the way the language says there is one... it says 'I am the entity who produces the thought'.	B: Đó là cách ngôn ngữ nói có một nó nói 'tôi là thực thể tạo ra ý nghĩ'.
40:15	B: Which is to say, like General Motors says... 'I am the Corporation which is producing automobiles'.	B: Tức là nói, như General Motors nói 'tôi là Liên hiệp sản xuất ra xe hơi'.
40:21	S: But look, look. You're right. How can I get it… The question is, I say to you... 'What is my relationship to thought?'... you say to me, 'You are thought'. In some way what you say is clear... but that's still what's coming from me... do you see? That is still the way... thought is moving, to say 'It's my relationship to thought'.	S: Nhưng, nào. Bạn đúng. Làm sao có thể hiểu nó... Vấn đề là, tôi hỏi bạn... 'Quan hệ tôi với ý nghĩ là gì?' bạn nói với tôi, 'bạn là ý nghĩ'. Cách nào đó điều bạn nói là rõ nhưng vẫn còn gì đó đến từ tôi bạn thấy không? Đó vẫn là cách ý nghĩ chuyển động, nói 'Nó là quan hệ tôi với ý nghĩ'.
40:52	B: That's the point, to say... 'Can this very thought stop right now?' Do you see? K: Yes.	B: Đó là vấn đề, nói... 'Ý nghĩ có thể dừng lại ngay?' Bạn thấy không? K: Vâng.
40:57	B: What is sustaining this whole thing, at this very moment... was the question I was trying to get at.	B: Cái gì cứ giữ cả việc đó, vào lúc này là vấn đề tôi cố gắng hiểu.
41:03	S: That's the question.	S: Đó là vấn đề.
41:04	B: In other words, say we have a certain insight... but something happens... to sustain the old process nevertheless, right now.	B: Nói cách khác, ví dụ chúng ta tỏ sáng nhưng điều gì xảy ra tuy vậy cứ giữ tiến trình cũ, ngay lúc này.
41:13	S: That's right. Right now thought keeps moving.	S: Đúng vậy, hiện giờ ý nghĩ cứ chuyển động.
41:18	K: No, he asked, Dr. Bohm asked a very good question... which we haven't answered. He said 'Why does thought move'?	K: Không, anh ta hỏi, Dr. Bohm hỏi câu rất hay mà chúng ta chưa trả lời. Anh hỏi 'tại sao ý nghĩ chuyển động'?
41:27	B: When it's irrelevant to move. K: Why is it always moving?	B: Khi không thích hợp chuyển động. K: Tại sao cứ chuyển động?
41:31	S: That's right.	S: Đúng thế.
41:33	K: So, what is movement? Movement is time. Right?	K: Vậy, chuyển động là gì? Chuyển động là thời gian. Phải không?
41:43	S: That's too quick. Movement is time… K: Of course.	S: Vậy quá nhanh. Chuyển động là thời gian... K: Dĩ nhiên.
41:50	S: Movement is movement.	S: Chuyển động là chuyển động.
41:51	K: No, no. From here to there. S: Right	K: Không, không. Từ đây đến kia. S: Đúng.
41:57	K: Physically. From here to there. Physically - from here to London, from here to New York. And also psychologically from here to there.	K: Vật lý. Từ đây đến kia. Vật lý - từ đây đến London, từ đây đến New York. Và cũng tâm lý từ đây đến kia.
42:08	S: Right. K: I am this, I must be that.	S: Đúng. K: Tôi là này, tôi phải là kia.
42:13	S: Right. But a thought is not necessarily all that.	S: Đúng. Nhưng ý nghĩ không cần là mọi cái đó.
42:20	K: Thought is the movement. We are examining movement, which is thought.	K: Ý nghĩ là chuyển động. Chúng ta xem xét chuyển động, là ý nghĩ.
42:29	S: Thought...	S: Ý nghĩ...
42:31	K: Look, if thought stopped, there is no movement.	K: Nào, nếu ý nghĩ dừng, không có chuyển động.
42:36	S: Yes, I am trying to… This has to be made very clear.	S: Vâng, tôi cố gắng...Việc này phải được làm rõ.
42:41	B: I think there is a kind of step that might help…	B: Tôi nghĩ có một bước có thể giúp...
42:44	S: What is that?	S: Là gì vậy?
42:46	B: I ask myself 'what is it... that makes me go on thinking or talking'. I often can watch people and see they are in a hole.. just because they keep on talking, if they would stop talking... the whole problem would vanish. It's just this flow of words that… because what they say... then comes out as if it were reality in them... and then they say... 'That is my problem, it's real... and I have to think some more'. I think there is a kind of feedback. Suppose I say... 'Well, I have got a problem, I am suffering'.	B: Tôi tự hỏi 'cái gì làm tôi tiếp tục suy nghĩ và nói năng'. Thường tôi có thể nhìn mọi người và thấy họ trong lỗ hổng bởi họ cứ nói năng, nếu họ dừng nói toàn bộ vấn đề tan mất. Nó chỉ là chữ nghĩa nhấp nhô bởi điều họ nói tràn ra như là thực tại trong họ và rồi họ nói... 'Đó là vấn đề của tôi, nó thực và tôi phải suy nghĩ thêm'. Tôi nghĩ có loại phản hồi. Giả sử tôi nói... 'À, tôi có vấn đề, tôi đau khổ'.
43:20	S: You have an 'I' though.	S: Bạn có 'tôi' đó.
43:22	B: Yes. I think that, therefore I have a sense that I am real. I am thinking of my suffering... but it's implicit that it's I who is there... and that the suffering is real because I am real.	B: Vâng. Tôi nghĩ thế, vì vậy tôi có cảm giác tôi là thực. tôi nghĩ về đau khổ của tôi nhưng nó hàm ý rằng chính tôi ở đó và rằng đau khổ là thực bởi tôi là thực.
43:35	S: Right.	S: Đúng.
43:36	B: Then comes the next thought, which is 'since that is real... I must think some more'. S: Right.	B: Rồi ý nghĩ kế đến, tức là 'bởi vì nó thực.. tôi phải suy nghĩ thêm'. S: Đúng.
43:41	B: Because if it were that would be the case.	B: Bởi nếu vậy đó là tình huống.
43:43	S: It feeds on itself.	S: Nó ăn lại chính nó.
43:45	B: Yes. And then one of the things I must think is... 'What is my problem'? Which is that I am suffering. I am compelled to keep on thinking... that thought all the time... maintaining myself in existence... do you see what I am driving at? There is a feedback.	B: Vâng. Và rồi một điều tôi phải nghĩ là... 'Vấn đề của tôi là gì'? Nghĩa là tôi đang đau khổ. Tôi buộc phải tiếp tục suy nghĩ ý nghĩ ấy luôn luôn giữ chính tôi tồn tại bạn có hiểu ý tôi không? Có sự phản hồi.
44:00	K: Which means sir, as thought is movement... which is time, if there is no movement, I am dead! I am dead!	K: Nghĩa là, khi ý nghĩ chuyển động nó là thời gian, nếu không chuyển động, tôi chết! Tôi chết!
44:12	B: Yes, if that movement stops, then... that sense that I am there being real must go because... that sense that I am real is the result of thinking.	B: Vâng, nếu chuyển động ấy dừng, thì cảm giác rằng tôi đây là thực phải biến mất bởi cảm giác tôi là thực là kết quả của suy nghĩ.
44:20	K: Do you see, this is extraordinary.	K: Bạn thấy không, đó thật lạ lùng.
44:22	S: Of course it is.	S: Dĩ nhiên rồi.
44:23	K: No, actually. In actuality, not in theory.	K: Không, thực sự. Thực tế, không lý thuyết.
44:28	S: Right, right.	S: Đúng, đúng.
44:30	K: One realises thought as movement. Right?	K: Bạn nhận ra ý nghĩ là chuyển động. Phải không?
44:34	S: Right.	S: Đúng.
44:37	K: There is not 'I' realise thought as a movement... thought itself realises it's movement. It is in movement.	K: Không có 'tôi' biết ý nghĩ như chuyển động ý nghĩ tự biết nó chuyển động. Nó đang chuyển động.
44:46	B: And in this movement it creates an image of...	B: Và trong chuyển động nó tạo ra hình ảnh về...
44:49	B: ...'me' who is supposed to be moving.	B: ...'tôi' kẻ phải chuyển động.
44:51	K: Yes, yes. S: Right.	K: Vâng, vâng. S: Đúng.
44:53	K: Now, when that movement stops... there is no 'me'. The 'me' is the time... is time, put together by time - which is thought.	K: Giờ thì, khi chuyển động dừng thì không có 'tôi'. Cái 'tôi' là thời gian là thời gian, kết lại bởi thời gian - là ý nghĩ.
45:08	S: Right.	S: Đúng.
45:09	K: So, do you, listening to this... realise the truth of it? Not the verbal, logical truth, logical statement... but the truth of such an amazing thing? Therefore there is an action entirely different from that. The action of thought as movement... brings about fragmentary actions... contradictory actions. When the movement as thought... comes to an end there is total action.	K: Vậy, nghe việc này, bạn có nhận ra sự thật của nó? không phải sự thật chữ nghĩa, hợp lý, lời hợp lý mà là sự thật của một việc lạ lùng? Vì vậy từ đó có hành động hoàn toàn khác. Hành động do ý nghĩ như chuyển động gây ra hành động manh mún hành động mâu thuẫn. Khi chuyển động như ý nghĩ chấm dứt liền có hành động hoàn toàn.
46:14	B: Can you say then that whatever technical thought... comes about, then is in order? K: Of course.	B: Ngài có thể nói bất kỳ ý nghĩ kỹ thuật nào xảy ra, là trong trật tự? K: Dĩ nhiên.
46:20	B: In other words, it doesn't mean that thought is permanently gone.	B: Nói cách khác, tức không phải lúc nào ý nghĩ cũng mất.
46:25	K: No, no. No.	K: Không, không. Không.
46:28	S: It could still be a movement in its proper place; its fitting order. If the right and proper thought. K: Its proper place.	S: Nó vẫn chuyển động ở vị trí thích hợp; trật tự đúng. Nếu ý nghĩ thích hợp và đúng. K: Vị trí thích hợp.
46:35	S: And it comes about… I mean, the brain can still... do that thing. Right? B: Yes.	S: Và nó xảy ra...ý tôi, não vẫn có thể làm điều đó. Phải không? B: Vâng.
46:41	K: So, am I - not, 'am I' - a human being... is he afraid of all this? Unconsciously, deeply, he must realise the ending of me. Do you understand? And that is really a most frightening thing. me, my knowledge, my books... my wife, my... - you follow? The whole thing which thought has put together. And you are asking me to end all that.	K: Vậy, tôi - không phải 'tôi' - con người hắn sợ mọi cái này? Vô thức, sâu thẳm, hắn phải biết chấm dứt cái tôi. Bạn hiểu không? Và đó thực sự là điều đáng sợ nhất. tôi, kiến thức tôi, sách vở tôi vợ tôi,... - kịp không? Toàn bộ sự việc mà ý nghĩ đúc kết lại. Và bạn yêu cầu tôi chấm dứt hết.
47:23	B: Yes. Can you say it's the ending of everything? Because everything that I know is in there.	B: Bạn có thể nói đó là chấm dứt mọi thứ? Bởi mọi cái tôi biết ở trong đó.
47:32	K: Absolutely. So, you see really, I'm frightened... a human being is frightened of death. - not the biological death. S: To die now.	K: Đúng vậy. Vậy, bạn thực sự thấy, tôi sợ con người sợ hãi cái chết. - không phải chết sinh học. S: Chết ngay.
47:54	K: Death of this coming to an end. And therefore he believes in god... reincarnation, a dozen other comforting things... but in actuality... When thought... When thought realises itself as a movement and sees that... that movement has created the 'me'... the divisions, the quarrels, the political... you follow? - the whole structure of the chaotic world... when thought realises it, it sees the truth of it and ends. Therefore it is in cosmos. Then there is cosmos. Now, you listen to this... how do you receive it?	K: Chết của chấm dứt này. Và vì vậy hắn tin vào thượng đế tái sinh, hàng tá điều dễ chịu khác nhưng thực tế... Khi ý nghĩ... Khi ý nghĩ tự biết mình chuyển động và thấy rằng chuyển động ấy tạo ra cái 'tôi' phân chia, tranh cãi, chính trị kịp không? - toàn bộ cấu trúc rối loạn thế giới khi ý nghĩ biết thế, nó thấy sự thật đó và chấm dứt. Vậy là nó ở trong vũ trụ. Liền có vũ trụ. Giờ thì, bạn nghe điều này bạn tiếp nhận nó cách nào?
48:57	S: Do you want me to…	S: Ngài muốn tôi...
48:59	K: Receive it. S: Receive it.	K: Tiếp nhận nó. S: Tiếp nhận nó.
49:01	K: I offer you something. How do you receive it? This is very important.	K: Tôi cho bạn điều gì. Bạn nhận nó cách nào? Điều này rất quan trọng.
49:09	S: Yes. Thought sees its movement...	S: Vâng. Ý nghĩ thấy nó chuyển động...
49:13	K: No, no. How do you receive it? How does the public... who listens to all this, say, 'How am I listening to this... what is he trying to tell me?'	K: Không, không. Bạn nhận cách nào? Làm sao mọi người nghe mọi điều này, nói, 'Làm sao tôi nghe việc này hắn cố gắng nói với tôi việc gì?'
49:38	S: How?	S: Cách nào?
49:39	K: He says, 'I am not telling you anything'. He says, 'Listen to what I am saying and find out... for yourself whether thought as movement... in that movement it has created all this... both the technological world which is useful... which is necessary... and this chaotic world.	K: Hắn nói, 'Tôi không nói với bạn điều gì'. Hắn nói, 'Nghe điều tôi nói và tìm cho chính bạn xem coi ý nghĩ như chuyển động trong chuyển động ấy nó tạo ra mọi thứ cả thế giới kỹ thuật hữu dụng cần thiết và thế giới rối loạn này.
50:08	K: How do you receive, listen to it; or the public - another who is not here... listen to it? How do you listen to it? What takes place in you when you listen to it?	K: Làm sao bạn nhận, nghe nó; hay mọi người - ai khác không ở đây nghe nó? Bạn nghe nó cách nào? Điều gì xảy ra trong bạn khi nghe nó?
50:24	S: Panic. K: No. Is it?	S: Kinh hoàng. K: Không. Vậy ư?
50:27	S: Yes. There is a panic about the death, that death... a sort of fear of the death. There is a seeing… there is a sense of seeing... and then there is a fear of that death.	S: Vâng. Có kinh hoàng về cái chết, chết ấy một loại sợ hãi cái chết. Có cái thấy...có cảm giác thấy và rồi có sợ hãi cái chết ấy.
50:49	K: Which means, you have listened to the words... the words have awakened the fear.	K: Nghĩa là, bạn có nghe chữ nghĩa chữ nghĩa đánh thức sợ hãi.
51:00	S: Right.	S: Đúng.
51:02	K: But not the actuality of the fact.	K: Nhưng không phải thực tế sự kiện.
51:09	S: I wouldn't say that. I think that's a little unfair.	S: Tôi không nói thế. Tôi nghĩ nó hơi không thật.
51:13	K: I am asking you.	K: Tôi hỏi bạn.
51:14	S: They awaken the actuality of the fact... and then there's almost… there seems to be a very quick process. There is an actuality of the fact... and there seems to be a silence... a moment of great clarity... that gives way to a kind of... feeling in the pit of the stomach where things... are dropping out and then there is a kind of...	S: Nó đánh thức thực tế sự kiện và rồi gần như có hình như có diễn tiến rất nhanh. Có thực tế của sự kiện và hình như có im lặng giây phút tỏ sáng nhượng bộ cho một loại cảm nhận ở lõm thượng vị nơi vật rớt ra và rồi có một loại...
51:42	K: Withholding. S: ...withholding. I think there is a whole movement there.	K: Giữ lại. S: ...giữ lại. Tôi nghĩ có toàn bộ chuyển động đó.
51:47	K: So, you are describing humanity.	K: Vậy, bạn mô tả con người.
51:50	S: Yes, I am trying. Yes, I am describing me.	S: Vâng, tôi cố gắng. Vâng, tôi mô tả tôi.
51:53	K: Who are the humanity. B: All the same.	K: Là con người. B: Cũng thế.
51:55	K: You are the viewer, the people who are listening.	K: Bạn là người nhìn, mọi người đang nghe.
51:58	S: Right. There is a sense of 'What will happen tomorrow?'	S: Đúng. Có cảm giác về 'Ngày mai việc gì xảy ra?'
52:01	K: No, no. That's not the point.	K: Không, không. Không phải điểm đó.
52:05	S: I am telling you, that's that fear.	S: Tôi nói với ngài, đó là sợ hãi.
52:07	K: No. When thought realises as a movement... and that movement has created... all this chaos, total chaos... not just patchy, but complete disorder... when it realises that, what takes place, actually? You are not frightened... there is no fear. Listen to it carefully, there is no fear. Fear is the idea brought about by an abstraction. You understand? You have made a picture of ending... and frightened of that ending.	K: Không. Khi ý nghĩ biết như chuyển động và chuyển động ấy tạo ra mọi rối loạn, cả lộn xộn không chỉ rời rạc, mà vô trật tự hết khi nó biết thế, thực sự điều gì xảy ra? Bạn không sợ hãi không có sợ hãi. Nghe kỹ nhé, không có sợ hãi. Sợ hãi là ý niệm tạo ra bởi trừu tượng. Bạn hiểu không? Bạn vẽ ra bức tranh về chấm dứt và sợ hãi về chấm dứt ấy.
53:24	S: You are right. You are right. There's stop...	S: Ngài đúng. Đúng rồi. Có dừng lại...
53:29	K: There is no fear… S: No fear, and then there's...	K: Không có sợ hãi... S: Không có sợ, và rồi...
53:33	K: There is no fear when the actuality takes place.	K: Không có sợ khi thực tế xảy ra.
53:39	S: That's right. When the actuality takes place there is silence.	S: Đúng thế. Khi thực tế xảy ra có im lặng.
53:45	K: With the fact there is no fear.	K: Với sự kiện không có sợ hãi.
53:47	B: But as soon as the thought comes in...	B: Nhưng khi ý nghĩ xen vào...
53:49	K: That's right. S: That's right. Now wait, don't go away. (Laughs)	K: Đúng thế. S: Đúng thế. Đợi đã, đừng bỏ đi. (Cười)
53:54	K: We have 3 minutes more. S: OK. 3 minutes.	K: Chúng ta còn 3 phút. S: Phải. 3 phút
53:58	K: Go on.	K: Tiếp tục.
53:59	S: The fact and the actuality - no fear.	S: Sự kiện và thực tế - không sợ hãi.
54:02	K: That's it. That's it.	K: Đúng đó. Đúng đó.
54:05	S: But then the thought comes in.	S: Nhưng rồi ý nghĩ xen vào.
54:08	K: No. Then it's no longer a fact. You can't remain with the fact.	K: Không. Nó không còn là sự kiện. Bạn không thể ở lại với sự kiện.
54:27	B: Well, that's the same as to say you keep on thinking…	B: Nào, đó cũng như nói bạn tiếp tục suy nghĩ...
54:30	K: Keep on moving. B: Yes. Well, as soon as you bring thought in and it's not a fact... that's an imagination or a fantasy... which is felt to be real... but it is not so. S: Right.	K: Cứ chuyển động. B: Vâng. À, hễ bạn đem ý nghĩ vào, nó không là sự kiện đó là tưởng tượng hay hư cấu mà cảm thấy như thật nhưng không phải. S: Đúng.
54:45	B: Therefore, you are not with the fact any longer.	B: Vì vậy, bạn không còn ở với sự kiện nữa.
54:47	S: So, we are saying…	S: Vậy, chúng ta nói...
54:49	K: We have discovered something extraordinary... when you are faced with fact, there is no fear.	K: Chúng ta khám phá điều lạ lùng khi bạn giáp mặt sự kiện, không có sợ hãi.
54:56	B: So, all fear is thought then, is that it?	B: Vậy, mọi sợ hãi là ý nghĩ, phải không?
54:59	K: Yes, that's right.	K: Vâng, đúng thế.
55:01	S: That's a big mouthful…	S: Nhiều lời quá...
55:03	K: No. All thought is fear, all thought is sorrow.	K: Không. Mọi ý nghĩ là sợ, mọi ý nghĩ là khổ.
55:08	B: It goes both ways, all fear is thought and all thought is fear.	B: Nó đi chung, sợ hãi là ý nghĩ và ý nghĩ là sợ hãi.
55:12	K: Of course.	K: Dĩ nhiên.
55:13	B: Except the kind of thought that arises with the fact alone.	B: Ngoại trừ loại ý nghĩ khởi lên chỉ với sự kiện.
55:16	S: I want to interject something right here... if we have 1 second. It seems to me that we have discovered... something quite important right here... and that is, at that actual seeing... then the instant of attention is at its peak.	S: Tôi muốn xen vào chỗ này nếu có một giây. Hình như chúng ta khám phá điều gì rất quan trọng ngay đây và đó là, ở chỗ thấy thực sự liền chợt chú tâm ở đỉnh cao.
55:31	K: No. Something new takes place. S: Yes.	K: Không. Điều gì mới xảy ra. S: Vâng.
55:36	K: Something totally, that you have never looked at or... it has never been understood or experienced, whatever it is. There is a totally different thing happening.	K: Điều gì trọn vẹn, mà bạn chưa hề nhìn đến hay nó chưa hề được hiểu hay kinh nghiệm, bất kỳ là gì. Có điều gì hoàn toàn khác xảy ra.
55:52	B: But isn't it important that we acknowledge this... in our thought, I mean in our language?	B: Nhưng không quan trọng là chúng ta xác nhận nó trong ý nghĩ, ý tôi là trong ngôn ngữ?
55:58	B: As we are doing now. In other words, if it happened... and we didn't acknowledge it then we are liable to fall back.	B: Chúng ta đang làm. Nói cách khác, nếu nó xảy ra và chúng ta không xác nhận nó liền có thể rớt lại.
56:04	K: Of course. S: I don't get it.	K: Dĩ nhiên. S: Tôi không hiểu.
56:06	B: We have to see it not only when it happens... but we have to see it when it happens... and we have to say that it happens.	B: Chúng ta phải nhìn không chỉ khi nó xảy ra mà chúng ta phải nhìn nó khi nó xảy ra và phải nói rằng nó xảy ra.
56:14	S: Then are we creating a place to localise there?	S: Rồi chúng ta tạo ra chỗ cho nó ở đó.
56:17	K: No. What he is saying is very simple. He is saying... Does this fact, actuality take place? And can you remain with that… Can thought not move in, but remain only with that fact? Sir, it's like saying, remain totally with sorrow... not move away, not say... 'It should be, shouldn't be, how am I to get over it?'... self-pity and all the rest of it - just totally remain... with that thing, with the fact. Then you have an energy which is extraordinary.	K: Không. Điều anh ta nói rất đơn giản. Anh ấy nói... Sự kiện ấy, thực tế ấy có xảy ra? Và bạn có thể ở với nó... Ý nghĩ có thể không xen vào, mà chỉ ở với sự kiện? Giống như nói, hoàn toàn ở đó với đau khổ không chạy đi, không nói 'Nó nên này, không nên nọ, làm sao tôi vượt qua?' tự xót phận, v.v.. - hoàn toàn ở lại đó với việc ấy, sự kiện ấy. Bạn liền có năng lực thật lạ lùng.
57:15	S: Right.	S: Đúng.
57:20	K: Can you? It's time.	K: Có thể chứ? Đến giờ rồi.