Krishnamurti_VI

Krishnamurti Subtitles

Trong Cô Đơn Bạn Có Thể Hoàn Toàn An Toàn

Brockwood Park - 19 May 1976

The Transformation of Man 4

0:09	K: I don't think we answered	K: Tôi không nghĩ hôm qua chúng
	yesterday the question...	ta đã trả lời câu hỏi...

0:14	why human beings live	...tại sao con người
	the way they are living.	sống lối họ đang sống.

0:20	I don't think we went into	Tôi không nghĩ chúng
	it sufficiently deeply.	ta đã tìm hiểu đủ sâu.

0:25	Did we answer it?	Chúng ta trả lời chưa?

0:29	S: We got to a point…	S: Chúng ta đến chỗ...
	we never answered that question.	chúng ta chưa hề trả lời.

0:33	I left here feeling…	Tôi bỏ lại cảm giác...

0:35	K: No, I was thinking	K: Không, tối qua tôi
	about it last night...	đã suy nghĩ về nó...

0:37	I mean this morning rather...	...ý tôi đúng
		hơn là sáng nay...

0:39	and it struck me that	...và tôi chợt nảy ra là
	we hadn't answered it fully.	chúng ta chưa trả lời xong.

0:42	We went into the question of	Chúng ta tìm hiểu 'Ý nghĩ
	'Can thought observe itself'?	có thể quan sát chính nó'?

0:48	S: Right.	S: Đúng. B: Vâng.
	B: Yes.

0:51	K: But I think we ought	K: Nhưng tôi nghĩ chúng
	to answer that question.	ta phải trả lời.

0:54	B: But I think that what we said	B: Nhưng tôi nghĩ điều chúng
	was on the way to answering it.	ta đã nói là đang trả lời.

0:58	It was relevant	Nó liên quan đến trả lời.
	to the answer.

1:00	K: Yes, relevant.	K: Vâng, liên quan.
	But it's not complete.	Nhưng không đầy đủ.

1:02	B: Yes.	B: Vâng.

1:05	S: No, it's not complete, it doesn't	S: Không, không đầy đủ,
	get hold of that issue...	chưa nắm được vấn đề...

1:09	why do people live	...tại sao con người
	the way they do...	sống lối ấy...

1:11	and why don't they change?	...và tại sao
		họ không thay đổi?

1:12	Why, knowing this,	Tại sao, biết là,
	they don't change.	họ không thay đổi.

1:16	K: Yes.	K: Vâng.

1:20	Could we go into that a little	Chúng ta có thể tìm hiểu
	bit before we go on with…	đôi chút trước khi tiếp tục...

1:24	S: Well, my immediate answer	S: À, trả lời ngay
	to that question was...	cho vấn đề này là...

1:28	that they like it,	...họ thích nó,
	that it provides...	nó cung cấp...

1:30	we came up against that	...chúng ta gần như chống
	and sort of pulled away...	nó và hơi bị kéo đi...

1:34	K: I think it's much deeper	K: Tôi nghĩ nó sâu
	than that, don't you?	hơn thế, phải không?

1:41	Because what is involved...	Bởi cái dính trong
	...economically, if you…	đó... ...về kinh tế, nếu bạn...

1:47	if one actually transformed	...nếu bạn thực sự
	one's conditioning...	chuyển hóa qui định mình...

1:54	the way one lives…	...lối bạn sống...

1:57	economically you	...về kinh tế bạn
	might find yourself...	có lẽ thấy mình...

1:59	in a very difficult position.	...trong tình thế
	S: Right.	rất khó khăn. S: Đúng.

2:03	K: And also, it's going	K: Và cũng, nó ngược
	against the current.	lại thói thường.

2:08	Completely against	Hoàn toàn ngược
	the current.	lại thường tình.

2:11	B: Are you saying	B: Ngài nói nó
	that it might lead...	có thể dẫn đến...

2:13	to a certain objective	...bất an khách quan nào đó?
	insecurity?

2:15	K: Objective insecurity.	K: Bất an khách quan.

2:17	B: It's not merely a matter	B: Không chỉ là vấn
	of the imagination.	đề tưởng tượng.

2:18	K: No, actual insecurity.	K: Không, bất an thực.

2:21	B: Because a lot of things we	B: Bởi rất nhiều việc
	were discussing yesterday...	chúng ta bàn hôm qua...

2:23	was some illusion of	...là ảo tưởng về an
	security or insecurity...	toàn và không an toàn.

2:26	but in addition there	...nhưng thêm vào đó
	is some genuine...	có vài cái thực...

2:28	K: ...genuine insecurity.	K: ...bất an
	B: ...insecurity.	thực. B: ...bất an.

2:32	K: And also, doesn't it imply that	K: Và cả, không hàm ý rằng
	you have to stand alone.	bạn phải đứng một mình?

2:40	S: It definitely…	S: Rõ ràng...bạn
	you would be in a new…	ở vào cái mới...

2:46	You would be in a	Bạn ở trong tình
	totally different...	thế hoàn toàn...

2:48	position because	...khác bởi vì bạn không...
	you wouldn't be...

2:49	K: It's like, completely...	K: Như, hoàn toàn...
	- not isolated -	- không phải cô lập -

2:56	away from the stream.	...ngoài dòng chảy.

3:00	And that means that	Và nghĩa là bạn
	you have to be alone...	phải một mình...

3:04	psychologically alone...	...một mình về tâm lý...

3:07	and whether human	...và xem con người
	beings can stand that.	có thể đứng như thế.

3:11	S: Certainly this other is	S: Chắc chắn cái kia
	completely to be together.	thì hoàn toàn cùng nhau.

3:14	K: That is herd instinct, which all	K: Đó là bản năng bầy đoàn,
	the totalitarian people use...	cái mà mọi nhà độc tài dùng...

3:20	and also everything	...và cũng mọi
	is together...	vật là cùng nhau...

3:23	be with people,	...đoàn kết lại,
	don't be alone.	không một mình.

3:27	S: Be like them, be with them…	S: Giống như họ, như họ...

3:30	It's all based on competition...	Đều dựa trên tranh đua...

3:33	in some way, I am	...cách nào đó,
	better than you...	tôi hơn bạn...

3:36	K: Of course, of course.	K: Dĩ nhiên, dĩ nhiên. Các
	All the Olympiad is all that.	thế vận hội đều vậy.

3:39	B: Well, it's unclear because...	B: À, chưa rõ bởi vì...

3:41	in some sense we	...nhưng nghĩa nào đó
	should be together...	chúng ta cùng nhau...

3:43	but not in that sense...	...nhưng không trong
	K: Of course.	nghĩa... K: Dĩ nhiên.

3:46	B: Society, it seems	B: Xã hội, hình
	to me, is giving us...	như, cho chúng ta...

3:48	some false sense	...vài nghĩa sai
	of togetherness...	lầm về cùng nhau...

3:51	which is really	...mà thực sự là manh mún.
	fragmentation.

3:53	K: Yes, quite right.	K: Vâng, đúng vậy.

3:54	B: But it's called being together.	B: Nhưng được gọi
		là cùng nhau.

3:57	It makes you feel that	Tạm thời nó cho
	way, for a moment.	bạn cảm giác vậy.

4:00	K: So would you say, one	K: Vậy bạn nói, một
	of the main reasons...	trong các lý do chính...

4:06	that human beings	...mà con người không muốn...
	don't want to...

4:08	radically transform	...chuyển hóa họ tận gốc...
	themselves...

4:11	is that they are	...là thực sự
	really frightened...	họ sợ rằng...

4:15	of not to belong	...không thuộc
	to a group...	về một nhóm...

4:17	to a herd, to something	...một đoàn, điều
	definite...	gì xác định...

4:21	which implies standing	...mà nó hàm ý hoàn
	completely alone?	toàn đứng một mình?

4:25	And I think from that aloneness	Và tôi nghĩ bạn chỉ có
	you can only co-operate...	thể hợp tác từ một mình...

4:29	not the other way round.	...không phải quay trở lại.

4:33	S: Certainly, empirically,	S: Chắc chắn, theo kinh nghiệm,
	people don't like...	mọi người không thích...

4:38	to be different, that we know,	...khác nhau, chúng ta biết,
	and empirically they…	và theo kinh nghiệm họ...

4:44	K: You must have seen	K: Chắc bạn phải
	on the television...	xem trên TV...

4:48	Chinese boys training,	Thanh niên Trung quốc
	the Russians...	tập luyện, Nga...

4:52	all the eastern	...tất cả bọn người
	satellite people...	hầu phương đông...

4:57	all of them training,	...đều tập luyện, tập
	training, never alone.	luyện, không hề một mình.

5:01	S: Right.	S: Vâng. B: Vâng.
	B: Yes.

5:04	K: I once talked to a FBI man.	K: Có lần tôi nói
		với một anh FBI.

5:10	He came to see me	Anh ta đến thăm tôi và nói...
	and he said...

5:12	'Why is it that you walk	'Tại sao ngài luôn
	alone all the time?	luôn đi một mình?

5:16	Why are you so much alone?	Tại sao ngài quá cô đơn?

5:18	I see you among the hills	Tôi thấy ngài một mình
	walking alone… why?'	đi trên đồi...tại sao?'

5:24	You follow? He thought,	Kịp không? Hắn nghĩ,
	that's very disturbing.	vậy là quá buồn phiền.

5:30	B: I think, even anthropologists	B: Tôi nghĩ, các nhà
	find that...	nhân loại học tìm ra...

5:33	in more primitive people...	...ở loài người
		rất sơ khai...

5:35	the sense of	...cảm giác tuỳ
	belonging to the tribe...	thuộc vào bộ lạc...

5:38	is even stronger.	...cũng rất mạnh. Họ
	They feel completely lost...	cảm thấy mất hết...

5:40	their entire psychological	...toàn bộ cấu
	structure...	trúc tâm lý họ...

5:43	depends on being in the tribe.	...lệ thuộc vào
		ở trong bộ lạc.

5:45	K: And I think, that is	K: Và tôi nghĩ, đó là
	one of the reasons why...	một trong những lý do...

5:47	we don't want to...	...chúng ta không muốn...

5:50	we are frightened!	...chúng ta sợ hãi!

5:55	After all, cling to the misery	Tóm lại, bám vào cái
	that you already know...	khổ mà bạn đã biết...

5:58	than come into another kind	...hơn là bước vào loại
	of misery that you don't know.	khổ khác mà bạn không biết.

6:02	S: That's right. But there is a	S: Đúng vậy. Nhưng có cả bộ
	whole action/reaction scheme.	khung hành động/phản ứng.

6:08	That is, by being with others...	Tức là, ở với người
	K: ...you're safe.	khác... K: ...bạn an toàn.

6:13	S: ...you're safe. And you're…	S: ...bạn an toàn. Và bạn...

6:16	it even goes further,	...ngay cả đi xa
	there is an action...	hơn, có hành động...

6:22	it's almost as if you could	...hầu như bạn có thể
	say that being with others...	nói ở với người khác...

6:24	is the off-shoot of	...là một phần của
	always living from...	luôn luôn sống từ...

6:29	'you're this, I compare myself	'bạn là vầy, tôi so sánh
	with you and therefore...	tôi với bạn và vì vậy...

6:33	I'm together with you',	...tôi cùng với bạn', phần
	sort of as the afterthought.	nào như ý nghĩ sau đó.

6:37	You know what I mean?	Bạn biết ý tôi? Đó là
	That is part of the circle.	một phần của vòng tròn.

6:41	B: Even if you leave	B: Ngay cả nếu
	off comparison...	bạn bỏ so sánh...

6:42	I think there is	...tôi nghĩ có
	something deeper...	điều gì sâu hơn...

6:44	in the sense that	...trong nghĩa mọi
	people feel this...	người cảm thấy...

6:47	togetherness, this	...cùng nhau này,
	sense of belonging...	cảm giác tuỳ thuộc...

6:49	to the group, even if	...vào nhóm, mặc dù
	they are not comparing...	họ không so sánh...

6:52	they just feel it's safe,	...họ chỉ cảm thấy an
	they will be taken care of...	toàn, họ sẽ được chăm nom...

6:55	like your mother may	...như người mẹ có
	have taken care of you...	thể chăm lo cho bạn...

6:57	you are sort of gently supported,	...bạn phần nào được
	that fundamentally...	ủng hộ, cơ bản...

7:04	it'll be all right because	...sẽ tốt đẹp bởi nhóm
	the group is large, it's wise...	rộng lớn, khôn ngoan...

7:07	it knows what to do.	...biết nên làm gì.

7:09	I think there is a feeling	Tôi nghĩ có cảm
	like that, rather deep.	nhận như thế, khá sâu.

7:15	The church may give that feeling.	Nhà thờ có thể
		cho cảm nhận ấy.

7:16	K: Yes. You've seen	K: Vâng. Bạn thấy ảnh
	those animal pictures?	những con thú kia?

7:22	They are always in herds.	Chúng luôn trong đàn.

7:25	S: Except the mountain lion.	S: Trừ sư tử trên núi.

7:26	Did you ever read	Bạn có đọc về sư tử chưa?
	about the lion?

7:28	There have been	Đã có vài nghiên cứu...
	some studies done...

7:30	by this fellow Shaller, in	...do Shaller, ông ta
	which he shows that the lion…	chỉ ra rằng sư tử...

7:34	always, in lion groups...	...luôn luôn, trong đàn...

7:37	there is always one	...luôn có một
	who goes off alone.	con đi một mình.

7:40	K: Yes…	K: Vâng... S: Ngài đã đọc nó?
	S: You have read about that?

7:42	K: I've heard about it.	K: Tôi đã nghe về nó.
	B: Anyway, the cats are not…	B: Tuy nhiên, mèo không...

7:46	K: The feeling of aloneness	K: Cảm giác một
	is much more...	mình rất lớn...

7:52	- it has got a	- có rất nhiều trong nó.
	great deal in it.

7:54	It isn't just - I say,	Không chỉ
	it is not isolation.	- tôi nói, không phải cô lập.

7:58	S: Right.	S: Đúng.

8:00	B: But, I was asking,	B: Nhưng, tôi hỏi, mọi
	people are seeking...	người tìm kiếm...

8:04	that sense that from	...cảm giác ấy
	the group you have...	từ nhóm bạn có ...

8:05	some support from the whole.	...vài ủng hộ từ
	K: Of course.	cả nhóm. K: Dĩ nhiên.

8:09	B: Now, isn't it possible that you	B: Giờ thì, không thể thảo
	are discussing an aloneness...	luận về một mình sao?...

8:12	in which you have	...trong ấy bạn
	a certain security?	có an toàn gì?

8:17	People are seeking in the	Mọi người tìm kiếm trong
	group a kind of security...	nhóm một loại an toàn...

8:20	it seems to me, that can arise	...hình như, thực sự nó
	actually only in aloneness.	chỉ khởi lên khi một mình.

8:24	K: Yes, that's right.	K: Vâng, đúng vậy.

8:26	In aloneness you can	Một mình, bạn có
	be completely secure.	thể hết sức an toàn.

8:28	B: I wonder if we could discuss	B: Không biết chúng ta có
	that because it seems...	thể bàn nó, bởi hình như...

8:32	there is an illusion there...	...có ảo tưởng ở đó...

8:33	people sense that you might	...mọi người cho rằng bạn
	feel that you should...	có thể thấy bạn nên...

8:35	have a sense of security.	...có cảm giác
	K: Quite.	an toàn. K: Đúng.

8:38	B: And they are looking for it	B: Và họ tìm kiếm nó
	in a group, the group being...	trong đoàn nhóm, nhóm là...

8:41	representative of	...đại diện cho
	something universal.	điều gì chung.

8:44	K: The group is not	K: Nhóm không phải toàn thể.
	the universal.

8:46	B: It isn't, but that's	B: Không phải, nhưng
	the way we think of it.	chúng ta nghĩ thế.

8:48	K: Of course.	K: Dĩ nhiên.

8:49	B: The little child thinks the	B: Trẻ nhỏ nghĩ bộ
	tribe is the whole world.	lạc là cả thế giới.

8:52	K: I mean, a human being	K: Ý tôi, con người khi
	as he lives this way...	hắn sống lối ấy...

8:59	if he transforms himself,	...nếu hắn tự thay đổi, hắn
	he becomes alone, he is alone.	thành cô đơn, hắn một mình.

9:08	that aloneness	...cô đơn ấy không
	is not isolation...	phải cô lập...

9:11	and therefore it's a form	...và vì vậy nó là hình
	of supreme intelligence.	thức thông minh tối cao.

9:16	B: Yes, but could you go	B: Vâng, nhưng ngài có
	into that a little further...	thể đi sâu hơn chút...

9:18	about it not being isolation...	...về nó không là cô lập...

9:20	because at first	...bởi thoạt nhìn
	when you say alone...	khi ngài nói cô đơn...

9:22	the feeling is that I'm here,	...cảm giác tôi ở đây, hoàn
	entirely apart. Right?	toàn tách biệt. Phải không?

9:25	K: It is not apart, no.	K: Không tách biệt,
	B: That perhaps...	không. B: Đó có lẽ...

9:28	S: What do you think it is	S: Ngài nghĩ sao, phải
	that a person experiences?	là ai đó kinh nghiệm?

9:33	There is one part of it that	Có một phần là hình
	all people seem to gravitate...	như mọi người bị hút...

9:38	they have to be together, they	...họ phải ở cùng nhau,
	have to be like other people.	họ phải giống người khác.

9:45	What would change that?	Cái gì thay đổi
	That's one question.	nó? Đó là vấn đề.

9:49	What would change	Cái gì thay đổi
	anybody from that?	ai đó ra khỏi nó?

9:52	And 2nd of all, why should	...và kế đến, tại sao ai
	anybody change from that?	đó phải thay đổi khỏi nó?

9:57	And 3rd of all, what	Và thứ ba là,
	does such a person...	người như thế...

9:59	experience when	...kinh nghiệm gì
	they are alone?	khi họ một mình?

10:02	They experience isolation.	Họ kinh nghiệm cô lập.

10:04	K: I thought we dealt	K: Tôi nghĩ chúng
	with that fairly...	ta đã quan tâm nó...

10:07	thoroughly the other day.	...khá toàn diện hôm trước.

10:10	After all, when one realises...	Rốt lại, khi bạn nhận ra...

10:16	the appalling	...tình trạng khủng
	state of the world...	khiếp của thế giới...

10:19	and oneself - the disorder,	...và chính bạn
	the confusion, the misery...	- vô trật tự, rối loạn, đau khổ...

10:22	and all the rest of it,	...và mọi thứ khác,
	and when one says...	và khi bạn nói...

10:27	there must be a total change...	...phải có thay
		đổi hoàn toàn...

10:30	a total transformation,	...chuyển hóa hoàn
	he has already begun...	toàn, bạn đã bắt đầu...

10:33	to move away	...bước ra khỏi đó.
	from all that.

10:35	S: Right.	S: Đúng.

10:40	But here he is altogether,	Nhưng ở đây, hắn
	being together.	ở chung, cùng nhau.

10:44	K: No. Being together,	K: Không. Ở cùng nhau,
	what does it really mean?	thực sự nghĩa là gì?

10:47	S: I mean being in this group.	S: Ý tôi là ở trong nhóm. K: Vâng,
	K: Yes, what does it really mean?	thực sự nghĩa là gì?

10:51	S: Being together is different	S: Ở cùng nhau là
	from this having to be...	khác với phải là...

10:54	K: No.	K: Không.

10:56	Identifying oneself with a group,	Đồng hóa mình với nhóm,
	and remain with a group...	và ở cùng với nhóm.

11:00	what does it mean?	...nghĩa là gì? Có
	What is involved in it?	gì dính trong đó?

11:03	S: That's right, what is	S: Đúng thế, cái gì
	involved in it. I think...	dính trong đó. Tôi nghĩ...

11:06	one of the things	...một trong những
	that's involved in it...	điều dính trong đó...

11:08	is what I said before.	...là điều tôi đã nói
	It sets up this comparison.	rồi. Nó dựng lên so sánh.

11:11	K: No, no, apart from all	K: Không, không, ngoài
	that superficiality...	mọi thứ cạn cợt ấy...

11:14	what is involved in it?	...cái gì dính trong đó?

11:17	The group is me.	Nhóm là tôi. Tôi là nhóm.
	I'm the group.

11:21	K: So therefore… It's like	K: Vậy thì... Nó như
	co-operating with myself.	hợp tác với chính tôi.

11:27	B: I think you could say like...	B: Tôi nghĩ ngài
		có thể nói như...

11:28	Descartes said 'I think,	Descartes nói 'Tôi suy
	therefore I am'.	nghĩ, vậy tôi đây'.

11:31	Meaning that I think	Nghĩa là tôi suy nghĩ
	implies that I am there.	hàm ý tôi có đó.

11:33	'I am in the group, therefore	'Tôi ở trong nhóm, vậy
	I am'. That's the sort of…	tôi đây'. Đó gần như...

11:36	…if I am not in the	...nếu không ở trong
	group, where am I?	nhóm, tôi ở đâu?

11:38	K: Yes.	K: Vâng. B: Nói cách khác...
	B: In other words...

11:40	I have no being at all.	Tôi không sống gì hết.
	That's really the condition...	Đó thực sự là qui định...

11:42	of the primitive tribe, for	...của bộ lạc nguyên thuỷ,
	most of the members anyway.	cho hầu hết thành viên.

11:47	So there is something	Vậy có điều gì sâu ở đó...
	deep there...

11:50	because I feel that	...bởi tôi thấy
	my very existence...	hiện diện của tôi...

11:52	my being psychologically...	...cuộc sống tâm lý tôi...

11:55	is implied in being	...hàm ý trước tiên
	first in the group.	là ở trong nhóm.

12:00	The group has made me.	Nhóm làm nên tôi.

12:02	Everything about me	Mọi điều về tôi
	has come from the group.	đến từ đoàn nhóm.

12:04	Do you see? I say 'I am	Bạn thấy không? Tôi nói
	nothing without the group.'	'Tôi không gì khác hơn nhóm.'

12:08	K: Yes, quite right.	K: Vâng, rất đúng.
	I am the group, in fact.	Thực tế tôi là nhóm.

12:10	S: Right.	S: Đúng.

12:11	B: Therefore, if I am	B: Vì vậy, nếu tôi
	out of the group...	ra ngoài nhóm...

12:13	I feel everything	...tôi cảm thấy
	is collapsing.	mọi việc sụp đổ.

12:19	That seems to me is deeper	Đó hình như còn sâu
	than the question of competing...	hơn vấn đề tranh đua...

12:22	who is the chief, or	...ai là thủ lĩnh,
	who is the big shot or...	hay ai là sâu bọ hay...

12:24	S: Right.	S: Đúng. B: Đó là
	B: That's a secondary affair.	việc thứ yếu.

12:27	S: Except that I wasn't	S: Trừ ra tôi không
	really saying that...	thực sự nói rằng...

12:29	that was important so much...	...nó quá quan trọng...

12:30	as I was saying	...khi tôi nói rằng
	that the very action...	chính hành động...

12:33	what I am trying	...điều mà tôi
	to get at is some...	cố nắm là vài...

12:35	of the moment to	...kinh nghiệm trong
	moment experience...	từng khoảnh khắc...

12:38	of being in the group,	...về ở trong đoàn
	which is occupied.	nhóm, là bận rộn.

12:41	B: Could I say that...	B: Tôi có thể nói...

12:43	the more striking thing	...việc nổi bật hơn
	is what happens when...	là điều xảy ra khi...

12:45	such a person is taken out	...một người bị tách khỏi
	of the group and he feels lost.	nhóm và hắn cảm thấy lạc lỏng.

12:48	In other words, all that	Nói cách khác, cả mớ ấy
	stuff seems unimportant...	có vẻ không quan trọng...

12:50	because he doesn't	...bởi hắn không
	know where he is.	biết mình ở đâu.

12:52	S: Right. He doesn't know...	S: Đúng. Hắn không biết...
	he has no orientation.	hắn không có hướng đi.

12:56	B: To life or to anything.	B: Về cuộc sống hay
	S: Right.	điều gì. S: Đúng.

13:01	B: And therefore, the	B: Và vì vậy, hình
	greatest punishment...	phạt lớn nhất...

13:04	that the group could make	...mà nhóm có thể
	would be to banish him.	làm là đuổi hắn đi.

13:07	K: Yes, they used to do that.	K: Vâng, họ thường
	S: Oh, yes.	làm thế. S: Ồ, vâng.

13:09	K: Look what's happening in Russia,	K: Nhìn những gì xảy ra ở
	when there is a dissenter...	Nga, khi có người biệt giáo...

13:12	he's banished.	...hắn bị lưu
	S: Right, right.	đày. S: Đúng, đúng.

13:15	K: Solzhenitsyn and Sakharov	K: Solzhenitsyn và Sakharov
	and all those people...	và những người...

13:17	are against the group.	...chống lại nhóm.

13:20	S: Right. Right.	S: Đúng, đúng.

13:22	B: Because such a banishment	B: Bởi lưu đày như thế gần
	sort of robs him of his being...	như cướp hắn cuộc sống...

13:25	it is almost like	...gần giống như
	killing him, you see.	giết hắn, bạn xem.

13:27	K: Of course.	K: Dĩ nhiên.

13:29	I think that's where it is,	Tôi nghĩ chỗ đó là,
	the fear of being alone...	sợ hãi ở một mình...

13:37	alone is translated as	...một mình được diễn
	being isolated from all this.	dịch thành cô lập mọi thứ.

13:43	B: Could we say from the	B: Chúng ta có thể nói từ
	universal? The false universal.	toàn thể? Sai lầm toàn thể.

13:46	K: Yes, from the universal.	K: Vâng, từ toàn thể.

13:49	B: It seems to me you are implying	B: Hình như ngài hàm ý rằng
	that if you are really alone...	nếu thực sự một mình...

13:52	genuinely alone, then you are	...đúng nghĩa một mình, ngài
	not isolated from the universe.	không cô lập với toàn thể.

13:54	K: Absolutely not - on the contrary!	K: Thực là không
	S: That's what he's saying.	- trái lại! S: Ông ta nói thế.

13:58	B: That's what he's saying,	B: Ông ta nói vậy,
	but I mean…	nhưng ý tôi...

14:00	therefore we have to be free	...vậy chúng ta phải thoát khỏi
	of this false universal first.	cái toàn thể sai lầm trước.

14:03	S: This false identification…	S: Đồng hóa sai
	B: With the group.	lầm... B: Với đoàn nhóm.

14:05	S: …identification with the group.	S: ...đồng hóa với nhóm.

14:07	B: Identification of the group	B: Đồng hóa với nhóm như
	as the universal, you see.	toàn thể, bạn thấy đó.

14:10	Treating the group as if it	Đối đãi với nhóm như
	were the universal support...	nó là chỗ dựa chung...

14:13	of my being, or something.	...cho cuộc sống, hay gì gì.

14:15	S: Right. There is something	S: Đúng. Còn có
	more to that.	điều gì hơn thế.

14:18	What's being said is that…	Điều đã được nói là...

14:21	When that localised	Khi sự đồng hóa
	identification...	địa phương ấy...

14:24	that I am the group,	...rằng tôi là
	that 'me'...	nhóm, 'tôi' ấy...

14:28	that false security is dropped,	...an toàn giả rớt xuống,
	then one is opened up...	bạn liền mở cửa đến...

14:32	to the participation in...	...sự tham dự
	B: In something.	vào... B: Điều gì đó.

14:35	K: No, there is no question	K: Không, không có
	of participation...	vấn đề tham dự...

14:37	- you are the universe.	- bạn là toàn thể.

14:38	S: You are that.	S: Bạn là nó.

14:40	B: I can remember as	B: Tôi có thể nhớ lại
	a child I felt that...	thời bé tôi cảm thấy...

14:42	I was in a certain town...	...tôi ở trong thành phố...

14:43	I felt that was	...tôi thấy nó
	the whole universe...	như cả vũ trụ...

14:45	then I heard of another town	...rồi tôi nghe về thành
	beyond that which seemed...	phố khác hơn nó hình như...

14:47	almost beyond the universe	...hầu như vượt cả
	and it seemed...	vũ trụ và có vẻ...

14:50	that must be the ultimate	...phải có giới hạn sau
	limits of all reality.	cùng của mọi thực tại.

14:52	So the idea of	Nên ý niệm về
	going beyond that...	vượt khỏi nó...

14:54	would not have	...chắc không xảy ra với tôi.
	occurred to me.

14:58	And I think that's the way	Và tôi nghĩ đó là cách
	that the group is treated.	đoàn nhóm được đối đãi.

15:03	We know abstractly	Chúng ta mơ hồ
	it's not so...	biết nó không thế...

15:05	but in the feeling	...nhưng trong cảm
	that you have...	giác bạn có...

15:08	it's like the little child.	...nó như đứa trẻ con.

15:09	K: Therefore, is it that	K: Vậy thì, là con
	human beings love or…	người yêu thương hay...

15:15	hold on to	...bám giữ đau khổ riêng...
	their own misery...

15:18	confusion, and	...rối loạn, và mọi thứ...
	all the rest of it...

15:19	because they don't	...bởi họ không
	know anything else?	biết gì khác?

15:30	K: The known is safer	K: Cái biết an toàn
	than the unknown.	hơn cái không biết.

15:33	S: Right. The known… yes.	S: Đúng. Cái biết... vâng.

15:39	K: Now, to be alone	K: Giờ thì, cô đơn
	implies, doesn't it...	hàm ý, phải không...

15:44	to step out of the stream.	...bước ra khỏi dòng chảy.

15:48	S: Out of the known.	S: Khỏi cái biết.

15:50	K: Step out of the	K: Bước ra khỏi
	stream of this...	dòng chảy đó...

15:52	utter confusion,	...quá rối loạn, vô
	disorder, sorrow...	trật tự, đau khổ...

15:55	despair, hope, travail, all that...	...thất vọng, hy vọng, thống khổ, mọi thứ...
	- to step out of all that.	- ra khỏi hết.

16:00	S: Right.	S: Đúng.

16:04	K: And if you want to go	K: Và nếu bạn muốn
	much deeper into that...	tìm hiểu nó sâu hơn...

16:07	to be alone implies,	...một mình hàm
	doesn't it...	ý, phải không...

16:11	not to carry the burden	...không mang theo gánh
	of tradition with you at all.	nặng truyền thống gì cả.

16:21	B: Tradition being the group, then.	B: Truyền thống là nhóm đó.

16:23	K: Group. Tradition also	K: Nhóm. Truyền thống
	being knowledge.	cũng là kiến thức.

16:26	B: Knowledge, but it comes	B: Kiến thức, mà nó cơ
	basically from the group.	bản đến từ đoàn nhóm.

16:28	Knowledge is basically collective.	Kiến thức cơ bản là
	K: Collective.	tích luỹ. K: Tích luỹ.

16:31	B: It is collected by everybody.	B: Nó do mọi người tích luỹ.

16:37	K: So to be alone implies	K: Vậy một mình hàm
	total freedom.	ý tự do hoàn toàn.

16:44	And when there is that great	Và khi có tự do bao
	freedom, it's the universe.	la ấy, nó là vũ trụ.

16:51	B: Could we go into that further	B: Có thể tìm hiểu sâu
	because, to a person...	hơn không, bởi với người...

16:54	who hasn't seen this,	...chưa thấy thế, nó
	it doesn't look obvious.	không có vẻ hiển nhiên.

17:00	S: It doesn't look obvious	S: Nó không có vẻ hiển nhiên
	- I think, David is right there.	- tôi nghĩ, David đúng đó.

17:05	To a person, to most	Với người, đa số
	people, I think...	người, tôi nghĩ...

17:07	and I have tested	...và tôi vừa
	this out recently...	thử nghiệm nó...

17:10	that the idea, or even...	...rằng ý niệm,
		hay ngay cả...

17:15	the deep feeling that	...cảm nhận sâu rằng
	you are the universe...	bạn là vũ trụ...

17:20	that you don't have to do	...rằng bạn không cần phải
	anything, that seems to be...	làm gì, nó hình như...

17:25	K: Ah, sir, that's the	K: À, đó là điều
	most dangerous thing.	nguy hiểm nhất.

17:27	That's the most dangerous	Nói điều đó là
	thing to say.	nguy hiểm nhất.

17:30	How can you say you	Làm sao có thể nói
	are the universe...	bạn là vũ trụ...

17:34	when you are	...khi bạn quá
	in total confusion?	sức rối loạn?

17:39	When you are unhappy,	Khi bạn bất hạnh, khổ sở...
	miserable...

17:43	anxious, jealous, envious, all that	...lo âu, ghen ghét, ganh tị, mọi thứ
	- how can you say...	- làm sao bạn có thể...

17:48	you are the universe?	...nói mình là vũ trụ? Vũ
	Universe implies total order.	trụ hàm ý trật tự hoàn toàn.

17:56	B: Yes, the cosmos in	B: Vâng, vũ trụ tiếng Hy
	Greek meant order.	lạp nghĩa là trật tự.

17:58	K: Order, of course.	K: Trật tự, dĩ nhiên. B: Và
	B: And chaos was the opposite.	rối loạn là ngược lại.

18:01	K: Yes.	K: Vâng. S: Nhưng tôi...
	S: But I...

18:03	K: No, listen, universe,	K: Không, nghe này, vũ
	cosmos, means order.	trụ, nghĩa là trật tự.

18:08	S: Right.	S: Đúng. B: Và rối loạn
	B: And chaos is what we have.	là cái chúng ta có.

18:11	K: Chaos is what we live with.	K: Rối loạn là cái chúng
	S: That's right.	ta sống. S: Đúng thế.

18:14	K: How can I think I have	K: Làm sao có thể nghĩ tôi
	universal order in me?	có trật tự vũ trụ bên trong?

18:21	That's the good old trick...	Đó là trò cũ hay ho...

18:25	of the mind which says...	...của trí óc nói...

18:27	'Disorder is there,	'Vô trật tự đó,
	but inside you...	nhưng bên trong bạn...

18:29	there is perfect	...có trật tự
	order, old boy'.	hoàn hảo, anh bạn'.

18:34	That's an illusion.	Đó là ảo tưởng.

18:38	It's a concept which	Nó là quan niệm mà
	thought has put there...	suy nghĩ nặn ra...

18:41	and it gives me	...và nó cho tôi
	a certain hope...	hy vọng nào đó...

18:46	and therefore it's an	...và vì vậy nó là
	illusion, it has no reality.	ảo tưởng, không thực tế.

18:50	What has actual reality	Điều thực tế là rối loạn.
	is my confusion.

18:54	S: Right.	S: Đúng.

18:56	K: My chaos. And I can imagine,	K: Rối loạn. Và tôi có thể
	I can project a cosmos.	tưởng tượng, vẽ ra vũ trụ.

19:04	S: Right.	S: Đúng.

19:06	K: But that's equally illusory.	K: Nhưng cũng là ảo tưởng.

19:09	So I must start with	Nên tôi phải bắt
	the fact of what I am.	đầu với tôi hiện là.

19:14	S: Right.	S: Đúng. K: Tức là
	K: Which is I'm in a chaos.	tôi đang rối loạn.

19:19	S: I belong to a group.	S: Tôi thuộc về nhóm. K: Rối loạn
	K: Chaos - chaos is the group.	- rối loạn là nhóm.

19:23	S: Right.	S: Đúng.

19:24	K: They have political leaders,	K: Họ có lãnh đạo chính trị, tôn giáo
	religious - you follow?	- kịp không?

19:26	the whole thing is a chaos.	...toàn bộ sự
		việc là rối loạn.

19:29	So to move away from	Vậy ra khỏi đó
	that into cosmos...	vào vũ trụ...

19:34	which is total order, means...	...là trật tự hoàn
		toàn, tức là...

19:40	not that I'm alone,	...không phải tôi cô đơn,
	there is a total order...	có trật tự hoàn toàn...

19:45	which is not associated with	...mà không liên quan đến vô trật
	disorder, chaos. That is alone.	tự, rối loạn. Là một mình.

19:52	B: Yes, well, can	B: Vâng, có thể tìm hiểu nó?
	we go into that.

19:54	Suppose several people	Giả sử vài
	are doing that...	người làm thế...

19:56	in that state, moving	trong trạng thái ấy,
	into cosmos...	bước vào vũ trụ...

19:59	into order, out of	...vào trật tự, ra khỏi
	the chaos of society.	rối loạn của xã hội.

20:02	K: That's right.	K: Đúng thế. B: Rồi
	B: Now then, are they all alone?	thì, họ đều một mình?

20:05	K: No, of course.	K: Không, dĩ nhiên. B: Tôi
	B: We want to get it clear.	muốn hiểu rõ hơn.

20:10	K: No, they don't feel alone	K: Không, họ không thấy một
	there. There is only order.	mình ở đó. Chỉ có trật tự.

20:15	B: Are there different people?	B: Có những người khác nhau?

20:18	K: Sir, would you say, suppose	K: Bạn nói, giả sử
	- no, I can't suppose.	- không, tôi không thể giả sử.

20:24	We 3 are in cosmos,	3 chúng ta trong vũ
	there is only cosmos...	trụ, chỉ có vũ trụ...

20:29	not you, Dr. Bohm,	...không có bạn, Dr.
	Dr. Shainberg and me.	Bohm, Dr. Shainberg và tôi.

20:33	B: Therefore, we are still alone.	B: Vậy, chúng ta vẫn một
	K: Order is alone!	mình. K: Trật tự là một mình!

20:37	B: Yes, I looked up the word	B: Vâng, tôi tìm chữ 'một
	'alone' in the dictionary...	mình' trong từ điển...

20:40	basically it is 'all one'.	...cơ bản là 'toàn
	K: All one, yes, yes.	thể'. K: Toàn thể, vâng, vâng.

20:44	B: In other words, that there	B: Nói cách khác,
	is no fragmentation.	đó là không manh mún.

20:46	K: Therefore there is no 3;	K: Vì vậy không có 3;
	and that is marvellous, sir.	và đó là tuyệt vời.

20:54	S: But you jumped away there.	S: Nhưng bạn nhảy khỏi đó.

20:56	We got chaos and confusion.	Chúng ta có rối loạn và
	That's what we got.	lộn xộn. Chúng ta có nó.

21:00	K: So, as we said, to	K: Nên, như đã
	move away from that...	nói, rời bỏ nó...

21:05	most people are afraid...	...nhiều người sợ hãi...

21:07	which is to have total order.	...tức là có
		trật tự hoàn toàn.

21:11	Alone, as he pointed out	Một mình, như anh chỉ ra
	- all one.	- toàn thể.

21:15	Therefore there is	Vì vậy không có manh mún...
	no fragmentation...

21:17	when there is cosmos.	...khi có vũ trụ.

21:19	S: Right. But most people are	S: Đúng. Nhưng đa số người
	in confusion and chaos.	đang lộn xộn và rối loạn.

21:23	That's all they know.	Họ biết vậy đó.

21:25	K: So, move.	K: Vậy, đi nào.

21:27	How do you move away from that?	Làm sao bạn ra khỏi đó?
	That is the whole question.	Đó là toàn bộ vấn đề.

21:30	S: That's the question.	S: Đó là vấn đề.

21:31	Here we are, in chaos	Chúng ta đây, rối
	and confusion...	loạn và lộn xộn...

21:35	we are not over there.	...chúng ta không ở đàng kia.

21:36	K: No, because you may	K: Không, bởi vì
	be frightened of that.	bạn có thể sợ nó.

21:39	S: May be frightened of that.	S: Có thể sợ hãi nó.

21:41	K: Frightened of an idea	K: Sợ hãi ý
	of being alone.	niệm ở một mình.

21:44	S: How can you be frightened	S: Làm sao bạn có
	of an idea?	thể sợ ý niệm?

21:45	B: That's easy.	B: Dễ thôi.

21:47	K: Aren't you frightened	K: Bạn không sợ ngày mai sao?
	of tomorrow?

21:49	Which is an idea.	Đó là ý niệm.

21:50	S: OK. So it's an idea.	S: Phải. Nó là ý niệm.

21:52	K: They are frightened of an idea	K: Họ sợ hãi ý niệm
	which they've projected...	mà họ vẽ vời ra...

21:57	which says	...nói 'trời ơi
	'my god I am alone...	tôi một mình...

22:00	which means I have	...nghĩa là tôi không
	nobody to rely on'.	có ai để nương tựa'.

22:04	S: Right, but that's an idea.	S: Đúng, nhưng đó là ý niệm.

22:06	B: Well, let's go slowly	B: À, đi chậm thôi
	because also…	bởi vì cũng...

22:08	S: Yes, this is very important.	S: Vâng, việc này
		rất quan trọng.

22:10	B: We've said to a certain	B: Chúng ta đã nói rộng
	extent that it's genuinely so...	ra rằng thực sự là...

22:12	you are not being supported	...bạn không còn được
	by society anymore...	xã hội ủng hộ...

22:16	You do have a certain	Bạn có nguy hiểm
	genuine danger...	thực sự nào đó...

22:20	because you have withdrawn	...bởi bạn rời khỏi
	from the web of society.	mạng lưới xã hội.

22:22	K: Yes. If you are	K: Vâng. Nếu bạn
	a Protestant...	là Tin lành...

22:26	in a Catholic country	...ở xứ Cơ đốc giáo
	it becomes very difficult.	là trở nên rất khó khăn.

22:29	S: I think we are confused here.	S: Tôi nghĩ chúng ta rối
	I really do, because...	loạn. Tôi thực sự vậy, bởi...

22:34	if we've got confusion,	...nếu chúng ta rối
	if we've got chaos...	loạn, nếu lộn xộn...

22:37	K: No. Not 'if', it is so.	K: Không. Không 'nếu', là nó.

22:40	S: It is so, OK	S: Là nó, phải
	- I go with you.	- đồng ý với ngài.

22:42	Now, we've got chaos	Giờ thì chúng ta lộn
	and confusion...	xộn và rối loạn...

22:44	that's what we've got.	...chúng ta có vậy.

22:46	Now, if you have an	Nếu bạn có ý
	idea about being alone...	niệm về một mình...

22:49	while in chaos and confusion...	...khi đang rối
		loạn và lộn xộn...

22:52	that's just another idea,	...đó chỉ là ý niệm
	another thought...	khác, ý nghĩ khác...

22:54	another part of the chaos.	...phần khác của lộn
	K: Yes, that's all.	xộn. K: Vâng, vậy thôi.

22:57	S: Is that right?	S: Phải vậy
	K: That's right.	không? K: Đúng thế.

22:58	S: OK. Now, that's all we have	S: Phải. Chúng ta có vậy;
	got; is chaos and confusion.	lộn xộn và rối loạn.

23:02	B: Wait. I feel… Watch the	B: Khoan. Tôi thấy...
	question of language...	Xem vấn đề ngôn ngữ...

23:05	because when you use the	...bởi khi ngài dùng chữ
	word 'all', it closes things.	'toàn thể', nó đóng lại.

23:08	S: OK. All right.	S: Phải. Được rồi.

23:10	B: We were saying yesterday	B: Hôm qua chúng ta
	that language has to be...	nói ngôn ngữ phải...

23:12	more free in its usage,	...dùng khá thoáng, có
	a bit poetic perhaps...	lẽ một ít chất thơ...

23:17	and if you use this word 'all',	...và nếu ngài dùng chữ
	you have to watch it.	'toàn thể', ngài nên xem lại.

23:21	S: All right. But we have this.	S: Được rồi. Nhưng
		chúng ta có nó.

23:24	We have chaos.	Chúng ta rối loạn.
	B: We have chaos.	B: Chúng ta rối loạn.

23:25	S: OK. Now, that's what	S: Phải. Chúng ta
	we have. Now what is...	có vậy. Cái gì...

23:30	I have an idea, let me	...tôi có ý niệm, nói
	say what my idea is...	xem ý niệm là gì...

23:34	that most people are…	...đa số người...ví
	let's say, unaware...	dụ, không ý thức...

23:42	unwilling, don't	...không muốn,
	believe in...	không tin vào...

23:46	don't know anything	...không biết gì
	about this 'all one'.	về 'toàn thể'.

23:48	K: I'm not talking about that.	K: Tôi không nói về nó.
	We're not talking about that.	Chúng ta không nói về nó.

23:51	S: Right, we don't have that.	S: Đúng, chúng ta
	K: No.	không có nó. K: Không.

23:53	S: All we have right	S: Mọi cái chúng ta
	now is chaos.	hiện có là rối loạn.

23:56	B: Leave out the word 'all'.	B: Bỏ chữ 'toàn thể' đi.

23:58	S: OK. We've got	S: Phải. Chúng ta
	chaos. (Laughter)	rối loạn. (Cười)

24:03	K: Chaos. Now, being	K: Rối loạn. Trong
	in chaotic condition...	tình trạng rối loạn...

24:09	to move away from that...	...rời khỏi nó...

24:12	they have the feeling	...họ cảm thấy
	that they will be alone.	họ sẽ cô đơn.

24:16	S: Right.	S: Đúng. B: Trong
	B: In the sense of isolated.	cảm giác cô lập.

24:18	B: Not the sense of 'all one'.	B: Không phải cảm giác
	K: Isolated.	'toàn thể'. K: Cô lập.

24:21	S: That's what I am getting at.	S: Tôi hiểu điều
	K: They will be lonely.	ấy. K: Họ sẽ cô đơn.

24:24	S: That's right.	S: Đúng thế.

24:26	K: Isolated.	K: Cô lập. Họ
	Of that they are frightened.	sợ hãi điều đó.

24:29	S: Not frightened - in terror.	S: Không phải sợ
		- kinh khiếp.

24:31	K: Therefore they say 'I would	K: Nên họ nói 'Tôi nên ở
	rather stay where I am...	lại vũng nước nhỏ bé...

24:36	in my little pond, rather	...này, hơn là giáp
	than face isolation'.	mặt với cô độc'.

24:41	S: That's right.	S: Đúng vậy.

24:42	K: And that may be	K: Và đó có thể
	one of the reasons...	là một lý do...

24:45	that human beings	...mà con người không
	don't radically change.	thay đổi tận gốc.

24:47	S: That's right.	S: Đúng thế.

24:48	B: Like this primitive tribe,	B: Như bộ lạc nguyên sơ,
	the worst punishment...	trừng phạt tệ nhất...

24:51	is to be banished,	...là bị đuổi
	or isolated.	đi, hay cô lập.

24:53	S: You don't have to go to a	S: Không cần đến bộ lạc nguyên
	primitive tribe, I see people...	thuỷ, tôi gặp mọi người...

24:56	and talk to people	...và luôn nói
	all the time...	chuyện với họ...

24:57	patients come	...bịnh nhân đến
	to me and say...	và nói với tôi...

24:59	'Look, Saturday night came,	'Này, tối chủ nhật, tôi
	I couldn't stand to be alone...	không thể chịu nổi cô đơn...

25:01	I called up 50 people, looking	...tôi gọi đến 50 người,
	for someone to be with'.	để tìm một ai làm bạn'.

25:05	B: Yes, that's much the same.	B: Vâng, cũng y như thế. S: 'Tôi
	S: 'I had to join this group'.	phải gia nhập nhóm này'.

25:08	B: It's much the same.	B: Y như vậy. Tôi
	I think it comes...	nghĩ nó đến...

25:09	in a more simple and	...với hình thức đơn
	purer form there...	giản và rõ ràng hơn...

25:11	people just frankly admit it	...mọi người công nhận thẳng
	and they know that's the case.	thắn và biết tình cảnh đó.

25:14	S: Right.	S: Đúng.

25:15	K: So, that may be	K: Vậy, đó có thể
	one of the reasons...	là một lý do...

25:18	why human beings	...tại sao con
	don't change.	người không thay đổi.

25:21	The other is, we are so	Cái kia là, chúng ta
	heavily conditioned...	bị qui định quá nặng...

25:26	to accept things as they are.	...để chấp nhận
		sự việc y vậy.

25:33	I mean, we don't	Ý tôi, chúng ta không
	say to ourselves...	hỏi chính mình...

25:36	'Why should I live this way?'	'Tại sao tôi sống kiểu này?'

25:41	S: That's certainly true.	S: Thật đúng như thế.

25:44	We are definitely	Chúng ta bị qui
	conditioned to believe...	định để tin rằng...

25:46	that this is all it can be.	...đây là mọi cái có thể.

25:48	B: Well, that's important.	B: Nào, quan trọng đây.
	That's an explanation...	Đó là giải thích...

25:50	'We are conditioned	'Chúng ta bị qui
	to believe...	định để tin rằng...

25:51	that this is all	...đó là mọi cái có thể'.
	that is possible'.

25:52	This word 'all' is one of	Chữ 'tất cả' là cái
	the traps that holds us...	bẫy giữ chúng ta...

25:55	S: Maybe that's the	S: Có lẽ đó là
	very fact. Right.	thực tế. Đúng.

25:56	B: If you say 'This	B: Nếu bạn nói 'Đó
	is all that can be'...	là mọi cái có thể'...

25:58	then what can you do?	...vậy bạn có thể làm gì?

26:00	K: Nothing. Nothing.	K: Không gì. Không gì.

26:01	B: You see, this use	B: Bạn xem, dùng
	of language that...	ngôn ngữ ấy...

26:03	This way of using language	Lối dùng chữ ấy
	may be a chain.	có thể là sợi xích.

26:06	K: Quite right, sir.	K: Đúng vậy. B: Bạn phải
	B: You have to watch that word…	nhìn lại chữ ấy...

26:08	S: It is the condition.	S: Đó là qui định. B: Nhưng
	B: But the word 'all'...	chữ 'tất cả'...

26:11	K: That's what he is pointing out.	K: Điều anh ta chỉ ra
	B: The word 'all'...	đó. B: Chữ 'tất cả'...

26:15	K: When you say	K: Khi nói 'đó là
	'This is all I know'...	mọi cái tôi biết'...

26:17	you've already stopped.	...bạn đã dừng lại.

26:19	S: Right.	S: Đúng.

26:19	B: Because what does	B: Bởi chữ 'tất
	the word 'all' do.	cả' làm thế.

26:21	It closes everything.	Nó đóng cửa hết.

26:22	It says that this thing is 'all' of	Nó nói rằng cái này là
	reality. It's got to be real.	'cả' thực tại. Nó phải thật.

26:28	B: One thing is that it turns an	B: Một điều là hình như nó
	idea into reality, apparently.	biến ý niệm thành hiện thực.

26:31	It gives that sense of	Nó cho cảm giác hiện
	reality to the idea...	thực vào ý niệm...

26:34	because if you say	...bởi nếu nói
	that's 'all' there is...	'tất cả' đó có...

26:36	then that has to be real,	...thì nó phải là
	see what I mean?	thực, hiểu ý tôi không?

26:38	S: Yes, I think that's	S: Vâng, tôi nghĩ đó
	a very good point.	là điểm rất hay.

26:41	That's very much like...	Nó rất giống như...

26:43	the points that we've	...vấn đề mà chúng
	been making where...	ta vừa nói, chỗ...

26:45	the very act of thinking,	...chính hoạt động suy nghĩ,
	that thought is complete…	ý nghĩ ấy là đầy đủ...

26:50	a thought becomes reality…	...ý nghĩ thành
		hiện thực...

26:54	So, again the language	Vậy, ngôn ngữ chính
	itself is the condition.	nó lại là qui định.

26:57	K: So, shall we say...	K: Vậy, chúng ta sẽ nói...

26:59	human beings don't radically	...con người không thay
	transform themselves...	đổi tận gốc chính họ...

27:03	they're frightened of being	...họ sợ bị cô
	isolated from the group...	lập khỏi nhóm...

27:08	banished from the group.	...bị đuổi khỏi nhóm.
	That's one reason.	Đó là một lý do.

27:11	And also traditionally	Và cũng truyền thống,
	we are so conditioned...	chúng ta quá qui định...

27:18	that we would rather...	...rằng tốt hơn chúng ta...

27:20	accept things as they are,	...chấp nhận sự vật y
	our misery, our chaos…	vậy, khổ sở, rối loạn...

27:26	all the rest of it,	...mọi thứ, và đừng nói...
	and not say...

27:28	'For god's sake,	'Lạy trời, để
	let me change this'.	tôi thay đổi nó'.

27:30	S: Right.	S: Đúng.

27:33	B: Well, we have to get out...	B: Nào, chúng ta
		phải bước ra...

27:34	of this conviction that the way	...khỏi niềm tin chắc rằng
	things are is all that can be…	mọi việc là chỉ có thể thế...

27:37	K: Yes, that's right. The religions	K: Vâng, đúng vậy. Các
	have pointed this out...	tôn giáo đã chỉ ra thế...

27:43	by saying there is another	...khi nói có thế giới khác
	world - aspire to that.	- mong mỏi đến đó.

27:52	This is a transient world,	Đây là thế giới tạm
	it doesn't matter.	thời, không hề gì.

27:56	Live as best as you	Hãy sống tốt nhất
	can in your sorrow...	có thể trong đau khổ...

27:58	but hand over your sorrow to	...và phó thác đau khổ bạn
	Jesus, or Christ or somebody...	cho Giê su, hay Ky tô hay ai đó...

28:04	and you will be perfectly	...và bạn sẽ hoàn toàn
	happy in the next world.	hạnh phúc ở thế giới kia.

28:06	S: Right.	S: Đúng.

28:08	K: So, the communists say	K: Nên, cộng sản nói
	there is no next world...	không có thế giới kia...

28:11	but make the	...mà làm cho
	best of this world.	tốt thế giới này.

28:13	B: I think they would say	B: Tôi nghĩ họ nói
	that there is happiness...	rằng có hạnh phúc...

28:15	in the future in this world.	...trong tương lai
		ở thế giới này.

28:17	K: Yes, yes. Sacrifice	K: Vâng, vâng. Hy
	your children…	sinh con cái bạn...

28:20	everything, for a future;	...mọi thứ, cho tương lai;
	which is exactly the same thing.	chính xác cùng một thứ.

28:26	B: But it seems that it's	B: Nhưng hình như nó
	sort of a transformation...	là loại thay đổi...

28:29	of the same thing that...	...cùng một thứ mà nếu...

28:34	if we say we have	...nói chúng ta có
	this society as it is...	xã hội này như vậy...

28:36	and we want to give it up but	...và chúng ta bỏ nó rồi
	we invent something similar...	tạo ra gì đó giống vậy...

28:39	K: Yes, quite.	K: Vâng, đúng. B: ...để đi đến.
	B: ...to go to.

28:43	S: We have to invent,	S: Chúng ta phải tạo
	it has to be similar...	ra, nó phải giống...

28:45	if we are inventing it	...nếu chúng ta tạo nó
	- out of the system.	- từ hệ thống.

28:47	B: Yes, but it seems that	B: Nhưng hình như nó là
	it's an important point...	vấn đề quan trọng...

28:50	it's a subtle way of not...	...là cách khéo
		léo để không...

28:53	not being alone.	...không cô đơn.

28:55	K: Quite right.	K: Đúng vậy.

28:56	S: You mean to go ahead and	S: Ý bạn là tiếp tục và
	make it out of the old ideas?	tạo nó ra từ ý niệm cũ?

29:00	B: Yes. To make heaven,	B: Vâng. Tạo ra thiên
	or the future.	đàng, hay tương lai.

29:03	K: So, what will make human	K: Vậy, điều gì làm thay
	beings change, radically?	đổi con người tận gốc?

29:11	S: I don't know. I think	S: Tôi không biết.
	that this is such…	Tôi nghĩ nó là...

29:14	you see, even the idea that	...ngài xem, ngay cả ý
	you are suggesting here...	niệm mà ngài gợi ra đây...

29:18	is that they say it	...là họ nói nó
	can't be different...	không thể khác...

29:20	or it's all the same - that is	...hay như nhau
	part of the system itself.	- nó là một phần của chính hệ thống.

29:24	K: Agreed.	K: Đồng ý.

29:25	Now, wait. May I ask	Khoan. Tôi có
	you a question?	thể hỏi một câu?

29:29	Why don't you change?	Tại sao bạn không thay
	What is preventing you?	đổi? Cái gì ngăn cản bạn?

29:37	S: I would say that is...	S: Tôi nói nó là...
	it's a tough question.	một câu hỏi khó.

29:48	I suppose the answer	Tôi giả sử câu
	would be that...	trả lời là...

29:59	I don't know	...tôi không biết
	how to answer it.	trả lời sao.

30:01	K: Because you've never asked	K: Bởi bạn chưa hề hỏi
	yourself that question.	câu đó với chính mình.

30:05	Right?	Phải không?

30:07	S: Not radically.	S: Chưa tận gốc.

30:11	K: We are asking	K: Chúng ta hỏi
	basic questions.	những câu cơ bản.

30:15	S: Right. I don't really know	S: Đúng. Tôi thực sự không
	the answer to the question.	biết trả lời câu hỏi.

30:21	K: Now sir, move away from that.	K: Giờ thì, ra khỏi đó đi.
	Is it as our structure…	Nó như cấu trúc chúng ta...

30:27	as our whole society,	...như xã hội chúng
	all religion...	ta, mọi tôn giáo...

30:30	all culture, is	...mọi văn hóa, đều
	based on thought...	dựa trên ý nghĩ...

30:33	and thought says	...và ý nghĩ nói
	'I can't do this...	'Tôi không thể làm...

30:39	therefore an	...vì vậy tác
	outside agency...	nhân bên ngoài...

30:40	is necessary to change me'.	...là cần thiết
		để thay đổi tôi'.

30:46	K: Whether the outside	K: Dù tác nhân
	agency is...	bên ngoài là...

30:48	the environment,	...hoàn cảnh, lãnh
	the leader, Hitler, this...	đạo, Hitler, cái này...

30:53	or Stalin and Mao, or	...hay Stalin và Mao, hay ai
	somebody outside, or god.	đó bên ngoài, hay thượng đế.

31:00	God is your own	Thượng đế là điều
	projection of yourself...	nghĩ ra của riêng bạn...

31:03	obviously. And you	...dĩ nhiên. Và bạn
	believe in god...	tin vào thượng đế...

31:06	you believe in Mao, you believe	...bạn tin vào Mao, bạn tin
	- but you are still the same.	- nhưng bạn vẫn y nguyên.

31:12	S: That's right. Right.	S: Đúng vậy. Đúng.

31:14	K: You may identify with the State	K: Bạn có thể đồng hóa mình
	and so on, but you are still...	với Quốc gia, v.v.., nhưng vẫn...

31:18	good old 'me' there is operating.	...cái 'tôi' cũ
		mèm kia hoạt động.

31:22	So, is it that thought doesn't	Vậy, có phải ý nghĩ
	see its own limit...	không thấy giới hạn nó...

31:32	and know, realise, it	và biết, nhận ra, nó
	cannot change itself?	không thể tự thay đổi?

31:38	Realise it!	Biết nó đi!

31:42	B: Well, I think that something	B: À, tôi nghĩ điều
	more subtle happens.	gì tinh tế hơn diễn ra.

31:45	Thought loses track	Ý nghĩ mất dấu
	of something and...	điều gì và...

31:52	it doesn't see...	...nó không thấy...

31:56	that it itself is behind all this.	...rằng chính nó
		đàng sau mọi thứ.

31:59	K: We said that, thought has	K: Chúng ta đã nói, ý
	produced all this chaos.	nghĩ tạo ra mọi rối loạn.

32:02	B: But thought doesn't	B: Nhưng ý nghĩ không
	really see it...	thực sự thấy nó...

32:04	you know, abstractly.	...một cách trừu tượng.

32:05	But I think, you see,	Nhưng tôi nghĩ,
	in its bones.	ngài xem, chắc chắn.

32:08	S: What about the whole	S: Thế nào về toàn bộ
	business that thought...	sự việc mà ý nghĩ...

32:10	what thought does in fact is...	...điều mà ý nghĩ
		làm thực tế là...

32:13	it communicates	...nó trao đổi nhau
	through gradual change.	bằng thay đổi từ từ.

32:16	K: That's all invention	K: Đó là mọi thứ
	of thought.	ý nghĩ tạo ra.

32:18	S: Yes, but that's where	S: Vâng, nhưng tôi nghĩ
	I think the hook is.	đó là chỗ cạm bẫy.

32:21	K: No, sir, please, just listen.	K: Không, nào, nghe
	S: Sure.	thôi. S: Chắc rồi.

32:24	K: Thought has put	K: Ý nghĩ xếp
	this world together.	đặt thế giới này.

32:28	Technologically as well	Kỹ thuật cũng như tâm lý.
	as psychologically.

32:31	And the technological world	Và thế giới kỹ thuật
	is all right, leave it alone...	tốt thôi, để nó đó...

32:34	we won't even discuss it	...chúng ta không bàn
	- it would become too absurd.	- nó trở thành quá vô lý.

32:38	So, psychologically	Vậy, về tâm lý ý
	thought has built...	nghĩ đã dựng lên...

32:40	all this world, in	...thế giới này, trong
	me and outside me...	tôi và ngoài tôi...

32:43	the churches,	...nhà thờ, xã hội, v.v..
	society and so on.

32:50	Does thought realise it has	Ý nghĩ có nhận ra nó
	made this mess, this chaos?	gây lộn xộn, rối loạn?

33:03	B: I would say it doesn't. It tends	B: Tôi nói nó không. Nó có
	to look on this chaos as...	khuynh hướng nhìn rối loạn như...

33:07	independently existent...	...tồn tại độc
	K: But it's its baby!	lập... K: Nhưng là con đẻ nó!

33:10	B: It is, but it's very	B: Đúng, nhưng rất
	hard for it to see that.	khó mà thấy thế.

33:13	We were discussing that...	Chúng ta bàn luận nó...

33:14	at the end of the	...vào cuối
	hour yesterday.	giờ ngày hôm qua.

33:16	K: Yes, we are coming	K: Vâng, chúng ta
	back to that.	trở lại chỗ đó.

33:18	B: This question of how thought	B: Câu hỏi là làm sao ý
	gives a sense of reality.	nghĩ cho cảm giác thực tại.

33:25	We were saying	Chúng ta nói kỹ
	technology deals...	thuật xử sự...

33:27	with something	...với điều gì
	that thought made...	ý nghĩ tạo ra...

33:28	but it is actually an independent	...nhưng nó thực là thực
	reality once it's made.	tại độc lập hễ được làm ra.

33:31	K: Made it, like the table,	K: Làm ra, như cái
	like those cameras.	bàn, như máy ảnh.

33:34	B: Yes.	B: Vâng.

33:38	But you could say that thought	Nhưng có thể nói ý nghĩ
	also creates a reality...	cũng tạo ra thực tại...

33:41	which it calls	...gọi là độc lập
	independent but isn't.	nhưng không phải.

33:43	I thought of a good example	Tôi nghĩ ví dụ
	that's the Corporation.	hay là Liên đoàn.

33:48	B: People are working for the	B: Mọi người làm việc cho
	Corporation, it makes money...	liên đoàn, nó làm ra tiền...

33:52	it loses money, they strike	...nó mất tiền, họ bãi
	against the Corporation and so on.	công chống Liên đoàn, v.v..

33:55	But actually you could say,	Nhưng thực tế bạn có
	where is the Corporation?	thể hỏi, Liên đoàn ở đâu?

33:58	It's not in the buildings because...	Nó không ở tòa nhà kia
	K: They are part of it.	bởi... K: Họ là một phần nó.

34:01	B: If all the people were gone	B: Nếu mọi người đi hết
	the buildings would be nothing...	toà nhà sẽ không là gì...

34:04	and if the buildings	...và nếu toà
	all burnt down...	nhà cháy rụi...

34:06	the corporation	...liên đoàn sẽ
	could still exist...	vẫn tồn tại...

34:08	as long as people	...bao lâu mọi
	think it exists.	người nghĩ nó còn.

34:10	S: Right. And it pays taxes,	S: Đúng. Và nó đóng
	the Corporation...	thuế, Liên đoàn...

34:12	pays taxes,	...đóng thuế,
	not the individual.	không phải cá nhân.

34:14	K: So, does thought	K: Vậy, ý nghĩ có
	realise, see...	nhận ra, thấy...

34:19	aware - that it has	...ý thức
	created this chaos?	- rằng nó tạo ra rối loạn?

34:23	S: No.	S: Không.

34:25	K: Why not? But you sir,	K: Tại sao không? Nhưng,
	do you realise it?	bạn có hiểu không?

34:35	S: I realise that thought...	S: Tôi hiểu là ý nghĩ... K: Không phải bạn
	K: Not you - does thought?	- ý nghĩ kia?

34:40	You see how you…? I have asked	Bạn xem làm sao bạn...?
	you a different question...	Tôi hỏi bạn câu khác...

34:44	does thought, which is you...	...ý nghĩ, là bạn đó...

34:47	thinking, does your	...suy nghĩ, suy nghĩ
	thinking realise...	bạn có nhận ra...

34:52	the chaos it has created?	...rối loạn nó đã gây ra?

34:57	B: Thinking tends to attribute	B: Suy nghĩ có khuynh hướng quy
	the chaos to something else...	tội rối loạn cho gì khác...

35:02	either to something outside,	...cả điều gì bên ngoài,
	or to 'me' who is inside.	hay cái 'tôi' bên trong.

35:07	At most, I would say	Tối đa, tôi nói là
	that I have done it...	tôi đã làm nó...

35:10	but then thinking	...nhưng suy nghĩ cho là...
	is attributing...

35:12	saying that I am	...nói rằng tôi
	doing the thinking.	đang làm suy nghĩ.

35:14	Do you see what I am driving at?	Ngài có hiểu ý
	K: Yes.	tôi không? K: Vâng.

35:16	B: That there is	B: Rằng có 'cái
	'something' thinking.	gì' suy nghĩ.

35:18	I was going to say that	Tôi sẽ nói rằng nó
	it's like the Corporation...	giống như Liên hiệp...

35:20	thinking has invented	...suy nghĩ đã tạo ra
	a sort of a Corporation...	một loại liên hiệp...

35:23	who is supposed to be	...kẻ phải trách
	responsible for thinking.	nhiệm cho suy nghĩ.

35:26	We could call it	Chúng ta có thể gọi
	'Thinking Incorporated'!	nó 'Tập đoàn suy nghĩ'!

35:28	K: 'Thinking Incorporated'	K: 'Tập đoàn suy nghĩ'
	- quite, quite.	- đúng, đúng.

35:30	B: And, you see, the Corporation	B: Và, ngài xem, Liên
	is supposed to be thinking.	hiệp là phải suy nghĩ.

35:35	S: Yes, yes.	S: Vâng, vâng.

35:36	B: So, we attribute,	B: Vậy, chúng ta
	we give credit...	cho là, tin vào...

35:39	for thought to this	...ý nghĩ là liên
	corporation called 'me'.	hiệp gọi là 'tôi'.

35:41	S: That's a good way	S: Đó là cách hay
	to look at it, yes.	để nhìn nó, vâng.

35:44	K: Thought has created me.	K: Ý nghĩ tạo ra cái tôi.

35:46	S: It creates an Institution.	S: Nó tạo ra Tổ chức. B: ...nhưng
	B: …but also thought has said...	ý nghĩ cũng nói...

35:49	that me is not thought, but	...cái tôi không phải là ý
	a reality independent of thought.	nghĩ, mà là thực tại độc lập.

35:52	K: Of course, of course.	K: Dĩ nhiên, dĩ nhiên.

35:53	B: Thought treats	B: Ý nghĩ đối
	the corporation...	đãi liên hiệp...

35:56	as if it were there,	...như nó ở đó, chỉ đứng...
	just standing...

35:58	like the buildings	...như toà nhà hay cái bàn.
	or the table.

36:02	It says' it is a reality',	Nó nói 'đó là thực
	it is not a mere...	tại', không chỉ là...

36:05	I think it's in this question of	Tôi nghĩ trong vấn
	reality, there are...	đề thực tại, có...

36:08	certain realities which are	...vài thực tại
	independent of thought…	nào đó độc lập...

36:13	but there are certain things	...nhưng có vài
	which are appearances...	việc là bề ngoài...

36:15	like if you are standing	...như bạn đứng trên
	on a cliff looking...	vách đá nhìn ngắm...

36:17	at the ocean, you see	...biển, bạn thấy mọi
	all the play of light...	chơi đùa của ánh sáng...

36:19	which is not an	...nó không là
	independent reality...	thực tại độc lập...

36:21	but it's due to the sky,	...mà do bầu trời,
	the sea, and me...	biển, và tôi...

36:24	all interrelated.	...liên kết lại. K: Dĩ nhiên.
	K: Of course.

36:26	B: So, it's important	B: Vậy, quan trọng
	to keep clear...	là rõ ràng...

36:28	whether it's a reality	...xem thực tại khởi lên...
	that arises...

36:30	through this whole…	...qua toàn thể này...

36:33	it's dependent on	nó lệ thuộc toàn
	this whole movement...	bộ chuyển động này...

36:35	or whether it stands	...hay xem nó có đứng
	self-generated, independent.	tự phát, độc lập.

36:40	Thought is treating 'me'	Ý nghĩ đối đãi 'tôi'
	as an independent reality.	như thực tại độc lập.

36:44	K: Of course.	K: Dĩ nhiên.

36:45	B: And thought is saying that	B: Và ý nghĩ nói rằng
	it's coming from 'me'...	nó đến từ 'tôi'...

36:49	and therefore it doesn't	...và vì vậy nó không
	take credit for what it does.	nhận chịu điều gì nó làm.

36:53	K: To me, thought has	K: Với tôi, ý nghĩ
	created the 'me'.	tạo ra cái 'tôi'.

36:56	S: That's right.	S: Đúng vậy.

36:57	K: And so the 'me' is not	K: Và vì vậy cái
	separate from thought.	'tôi' không rời ý nghĩ.

37:01	It is the structure of thought.	Nó là cấu trúc
		của ý nghĩ.

37:05	The nature of thought	Bản chất của ý nghĩ
	that has made 'me'.	làm nên cái 'tôi'.

37:10	Now, does thought,	Giờ thì, ý nghĩ,
	does your thinking...	suy nghĩ có...

37:15	or does your thought	... hay ý nghĩ
	realise this?	có nhận ra vậy?

37:20	S: I would say yes and no.	S: Tôi nói có và
	K: No, no.	không. K: Không, không.

37:23	S: It's like in flashes it does.	S: Nó như trong ánh chớp. K: Không,
	K: No, not in flashes.	không trong ánh chớp.

37:26	You don't see...	Bạn không thấy...

37:28	that table in flashes	...cái bàn trong ánh chớp
	- it is always there.	- nó luôn ở đó.

37:37	S: I think what actually	S: Tôi nghĩ điều
	happens though...	thực sự xảy ra dù...

37:39	is that you see the action…	...là ngài thấy
		hành động...

37:42	I wonder, it seems as though...	Tôi tự hỏi, hình như dù...

37:44	- if we could be	- nếu có thể thành
	honest about this...	thực việc này...

37:47	completely true about it,	...hoàn toàn thực về nó,
	what do we see when…	chúng ta thấy gì khi...

37:51	what happens...	...điều gì xảy ra...

37:52	or what is the actuality of	...hay thực tế của ý nghĩ
	thought seeing this creation?	nhìn hành động ấy là gì?

38:01	K: No. We asked a question	K: Không. Hôm qua chúng ta
	yesterday, we stopped there...	hỏi, chúng ta dừng ở đó...

38:05	Does thought see	Ý nghĩ có thấy
	itself in movement?	chính nó chuyển động?

38:09	S: Right.	S: Đúng.

38:11	K: The movement has	K: Chuyển động
	created the 'me'...	tạo ra cái 'tôi'...

38:13	created the chaos,	...tạo ra rối loạn,
	created the division...	tạo ra phân chia...

38:15	created the conflict, jealousy,	...tạo ra xung đột, ghen tị, lo âu, sợ hãi
	anxiety, fear - all that.	- mọi thứ.

38:20	S: Right. Now, what I'm asking is	S: Đúng. Giờ, tôi hỏi là
	another question, yesterday...	câu hỏi khác, hôm qua...

38:24	we came to a moment where	...chúng ta đến chỗ chúng
	we said 'thought stops'.	ta nói 'ý nghĩ dừng'...

38:29	K: No, that's much later.	K: Không, đó là lúc sau.

38:33	Please just stick to one thing.	Hãy nắm một việc thôi.

38:34	S: OK, but thought	S: Phải, nhưng ý nghĩ
	- what I'm trying to get at is...	- điều tôi cố gắng hiểu là...

38:36	What is the actuality	Thực tế ý nghĩ thấy
	of thought seeing itself...	chính nó là gì...

38:41	K: Tell me. You want	K: Nói xem. Bạn muốn
	me to describe it.	tôi diễn tả nó.

38:45	S: No, I don't want	S: Không, tôi không muốn
	you to describe it.	ngài diễn tả nó.

38:46	I am trying to get at is...	Tôi cố gắng hiểu nó là...

38:48	what is my actuality. What is	...thực tế là gì. Thực
	the actuality that thought sees?	tế ý nghĩ thấy gì?

38:52	And as I observe this...	Và khi tôi quan sát nó...

38:56	- we get into language here,	- chúng ta vào ngôn ngữ
	the problem of language...	đây, vấn đề ngôn ngữ...

38:59	but it seems that thought	...nhưng hình như ý
	sees and forgets.	nghĩ thấy và quên đi.

39:03	K: No, please. I am asking	K: Không, nào. Tôi
	a very simple question.	hỏi câu rất đơn giản.

39:06	Don't complicate it.	Đừng làm phức tạp nó.

39:08	Does thought see the chaos	Ý nghĩ có thấy rối loạn
	it has created? That's all.	nó tạo ra không? Vậy thôi.

39:19	Which means...	Nghĩa là...

39:23	Is thought aware of	Ý nghĩ có thấy
	itself as a movement?	nó như chuyển động?

39:30	Not, 'I am aware of	Không phải 'tôi ý thức
	thought as a movement'.	ý nghĩ chuyển động'.

39:36	The 'I' has been	Cái 'tôi' do ý nghĩ tạo ra.
	created by thought.

39:40	B: I think the question	B: Tôi nghĩ câu hỏi
	that is relevant is...	thích hợp là...

39:42	Why does thought	Tại sao ý nghĩ
	keep on going?	cứ tiếp tục?

39:44	Why does it sustain itself?	Tại sao nó cứ duy trì nó?

39:46	Because as long as	Bởi vì hễ nó
	it sustains itself...	còn giữ nó...

39:49	it does produce something...	...nó tạo ra điều gì...

39:50	like an independent reality,	...như thực tại độc
	an illusion of one.	lập, ảo tưởng về một.

39:53	K: Why does thought...	K: Tại sao ý nghĩ...

39:55	B: Why does thought	B: Tại sao ý nghĩ
	keep on going?	cứ tiếp tục?

39:59	S: What is my relationship	S: Tôi liên hệ
	to thought?	gì với ý nghĩ?

40:03	K: You are thought. There is not	K: Bạn là ý nghĩ. Không có
	a 'you' related to 'thought'.	'tôi' liên hệ với 'ý nghĩ'.

40:09	B: That's the way the language	B: Đó là cách ngôn
	says there is one...	ngữ nói có một...

40:12	it says 'I am the entity	...nó nói 'tôi là thực
	who produces the thought'.	thể tạo ra ý nghĩ'.

40:15	B: Which is to say, like	B: Tức là nói, như
	General Motors says...	General Motors nói...

40:17	'I am the Corporation which is	...'tôi là Liên hiệp
	producing automobiles'.	sản xuất ra xe hơi'.

40:21	S: But look, look. You're	S: Nhưng, nào. Bạn đúng.
	right. How can I get it…	Làm sao có thể hiểu nó...

40:26	The question is,	Vấn đề là, tôi hỏi bạn...
	I say to you...

40:30	'What is my relationship	'Quan hệ tôi với
	to thought?'...	ý nghĩ là gì?'...

40:32	you say to me,	...bạn nói với tôi,
	'You are thought'.	'bạn là ý nghĩ'.

40:37	In some way what	Cách nào đó điều
	you say is clear...	bạn nói là rõ...

40:41	but that's still what's	...nhưng vẫn còn
	coming from me...	gì đó đến từ tôi...

40:45	do you see?	...bạn thấy không?
	That is still the way...	Đó vẫn là cách...

40:47	thought is moving, to say	...ý nghĩ chuyển động, nói
	'It's my relationship to thought'.	'Nó là quan hệ tôi với ý nghĩ'.

40:52	B: That's the point, to say...	B: Đó là vấn đề, nói...

40:53	'Can this very thought	'Ý nghĩ có thể
	stop right now?'	dừng lại ngay?'

40:56	Do you see?	Bạn thấy không? K: Vâng.
	K: Yes.

40:57	B: What is sustaining this whole	B: Cái gì cứ giữ cả
	thing, at this very moment...	việc đó, vào lúc này...

41:01	was the question	...là vấn đề
	I was trying to get at.	tôi cố gắng hiểu.

41:03	S: That's the question.	S: Đó là vấn đề.

41:04	B: In other words, say we	B: Nói cách khác, ví
	have a certain insight...	dụ chúng ta tỏ sáng...

41:07	but something happens...	...nhưng điều gì xảy ra...

41:10	to sustain the old process	...tuy vậy cứ giữ tiến
	nevertheless, right now.	trình cũ, ngay lúc này.

41:13	S: That's right. Right now	S: Đúng vậy, hiện giờ
	thought keeps moving.	ý nghĩ cứ chuyển động.

41:18	K: No, he asked, Dr. Bohm	K: Không, anh ta hỏi, Dr.
	asked a very good question...	Bohm hỏi câu rất hay...

41:22	which we haven't answered.	...mà chúng ta chưa trả lời.

41:23	He said 'Why does thought move'?	Anh hỏi 'tại sao ý
		nghĩ chuyển động'?

41:27	B: When it's irrelevant to move.	B: Khi không thích hợp chuyển
	K: Why is it always moving?	động. K: Tại sao cứ chuyển động?

41:31	S: That's right.	S: Đúng thế.

41:33	K: So, what is movement?	K: Vậy, chuyển động là gì?

41:38	Movement is time. Right?	Chuyển động là
		thời gian. Phải không?

41:43	S: That's too quick.	S: Vậy quá nhanh.

41:47	Movement is time…	Chuyển động là thời
	K: Of course.	gian... K: Dĩ nhiên.

41:50	S: Movement is movement.	S: Chuyển động
		là chuyển động.

41:51	K: No, no. From here to there.	K: Không, không. Từ
	S: Right	đây đến kia. S: Đúng.

41:57	K: Physically.	K: Vật lý. Từ đây đến kia.
	From here to there.

42:00	Physically - from here to London,	Vật lý
	from here to New York.	- từ đây đến London, từ đây đến New York.

42:05	And also psychologically	Và cũng tâm lý
	from here to there.	từ đây đến kia.

42:08	S: Right.	S: Đúng. K: Tôi là
	K: I am this, I must be that.	này, tôi phải là kia.

42:13	S: Right. But a thought	S: Đúng. Nhưng ý nghĩ
	is not necessarily all that.	không cần là mọi cái đó.

42:20	K: Thought is the movement.	K: Ý nghĩ là chuyển động.

42:25	We are examining movement,	Chúng ta xem xét chuyển
	which is thought.	động, là ý nghĩ.

42:29	S: Thought...	S: Ý nghĩ...

42:31	K: Look, if thought stopped,	K: Nào, nếu ý nghĩ dừng,
	there is no movement.	không có chuyển động.

42:36	S: Yes, I am trying to…	S: Vâng, tôi cố gắng...Việc
	This has to be made very clear.	này phải được làm rõ.

42:41	B: I think there is a kind of	B: Tôi nghĩ có một
	step that might help…	bước có thể giúp...

42:44	S: What is that?	S: Là gì vậy?

42:46	B: I ask myself 'what is it...	B: Tôi tự hỏi 'cái gì...

42:47	that makes me go on	...làm tôi tiếp tục
	thinking or talking'.	suy nghĩ và nói năng'.

42:51	I often can watch people	Thường tôi có thể nhìn mọi
	and see they are in a hole..	người và thấy họ trong...

42:54	just because	...lỗ hổng bởi
	they keep on talking,	họ cứ nói năng,

42:56	if they would stop talking...	nếu họ dừng nói...

42:57	the whole problem	...toàn bộ vấn đề tan mất.
	would vanish.

42:59	It's just this flow	Nó chỉ là chữ
	of words that…	nghĩa nhấp nhô...

43:03	because what they say...	...bởi điều họ nói...

43:04	then comes out as if	...tràn ra như là
	it were reality in them...	thực tại trong họ...

43:08	and then they say...	...và rồi họ nói...

43:09	'That is my problem,	'Đó là vấn đề
	it's real...	của tôi, nó thực...

43:11	and I have to	...và tôi phải
	think some more'.	suy nghĩ thêm'.

43:12	I think there is a kind of	Tôi nghĩ có loại phản
	feedback. Suppose I say...	hồi. Giả sử tôi nói...

43:17	'Well, I have got a problem,	'À, tôi có vấn
	I am suffering'.	đề, tôi đau khổ'.

43:20	S: You have an 'I' though.	S: Bạn có 'tôi' đó.

43:22	B: Yes. I think that, therefore	B: Vâng. Tôi nghĩ thế, vì vậy
	I have a sense that I am real.	tôi có cảm giác tôi là thực.

43:27	I am thinking	...tôi nghĩ về
	of my suffering...	đau khổ của tôi...

43:29	but it's implicit that	...nhưng nó hàm ý
	it's I who is there...	rằng chính tôi ở đó...

43:32	and that the suffering	...và rằng đau khổ là
	is real because I am real.	thực bởi tôi là thực.

43:35	S: Right.	S: Đúng.

43:36	B: Then comes the next thought,	B: Rồi ý nghĩ kế đến,
	which is 'since that is real...	tức là 'bởi vì nó thực..

43:39	I must think some more'.	...tôi phải suy
	S: Right.	nghĩ thêm'. S: Đúng.

43:41	B: Because if it were	B: Bởi nếu vậy
	that would be the case.	đó là tình huống.

43:43	S: It feeds on itself.	S: Nó ăn lại chính nó.

43:45	B: Yes. And then one of the	B: Vâng. Và rồi một
	things I must think is...	điều tôi phải nghĩ là...

43:48	'What is my problem'?	'Vấn đề của tôi là gì'?

43:49	Which is that I am suffering.	Nghĩa là tôi đang đau khổ.

43:51	I am compelled to	Tôi buộc phải tiếp
	keep on thinking...	tục suy nghĩ...

43:53	that thought all the time...	...ý nghĩ ấy luôn luôn...

43:56	maintaining myself	...giữ chính tôi tồn tại...
	in existence...

43:58	do you see what	...bạn có hiểu ý tôi không?
	I am driving at?

43:59	There is a feedback.	Có sự phản hồi.

44:00	K: Which means sir,	K: Nghĩa là, khi ý
	as thought is movement...	nghĩ chuyển động...

44:05	which is time, if there is	...nó là thời gian, nếu
	no movement, I am dead!	không chuyển động, tôi chết!

44:10	I am dead!	Tôi chết!

44:12	B: Yes, if that movement	B: Vâng, nếu chuyển
	stops, then...	động ấy dừng, thì...

44:14	that sense that I am there	...cảm giác rằng tôi đây là
	being real must go because...	thực phải biến mất bởi...

44:17	that sense that I am real	...cảm giác tôi là thực
	is the result of thinking.	là kết quả của suy nghĩ.

44:20	K: Do you see, this	K: Bạn thấy không,
	is extraordinary.	đó thật lạ lùng.

44:22	S: Of course it is.	S: Dĩ nhiên rồi.

44:23	K: No, actually. In actuality,	K: Không, thực sự. Thực
	not in theory.	tế, không lý thuyết.

44:28	S: Right, right.	S: Đúng, đúng.

44:30	K: One realises thought	K: Bạn nhận ra ý nghĩ là
	as movement. Right?	chuyển động. Phải không?

44:34	S: Right.	S: Đúng.

44:37	K: There is not 'I' realise	K: Không có 'tôi' biết ý
	thought as a movement...	nghĩ như chuyển động...

44:41	thought itself realises it's	...ý nghĩ tự biết nó chuyển
	movement. It is in movement.	động. Nó đang chuyển động.

44:46	B: And in this movement	B: Và trong chuyển động
	it creates an image of...	nó tạo ra hình ảnh về...

44:49	B: ...'me' who is supposed	B: ...'tôi' kẻ
	to be moving.	phải chuyển động.

44:51	K: Yes, yes.	K: Vâng, vâng. S: Đúng.
	S: Right.

44:53	K: Now, when that	K: Giờ thì, khi
	movement stops...	chuyển động dừng...

44:58	there is no 'me'.	...thì không có 'tôi'.

45:02	The 'me' is the time...	Cái 'tôi' là thời gian...

45:03	is time, put together by	...là thời gian, kết lại bởi thời gian
	time - which is thought.	- là ý nghĩ.

45:08	S: Right.	S: Đúng.

45:09	K: So, do you,	K: Vậy, nghe việc
	listening to this...	này, bạn có...

45:16	realise the truth of it?	...nhận ra sự thật của nó?

45:21	Not the verbal, logical truth,	...không phải sự thật chữ
	logical statement...	nghĩa, hợp lý, lời hợp lý...

45:29	but the truth of such	...mà là sự thật
	an amazing thing?	của một việc lạ lùng?

45:46	Therefore there is an action	Vì vậy từ đó có hành
	entirely different from that.	động hoàn toàn khác.

45:55	The action of thought	Hành động do ý nghĩ
	as movement...	như chuyển động...

45:59	brings about	...gây ra hành
	fragmentary actions...	động manh mún...

46:02	contradictory actions.	...hành động mâu thuẫn.

46:05	When the movement as thought...	Khi chuyển động
		như ý nghĩ...

46:08	comes to an end	...chấm dứt liền có
	there is total action.	hành động hoàn toàn.

46:14	B: Can you say then that whatever	B: Ngài có thể nói bất
	technical thought...	kỳ ý nghĩ kỹ thuật nào...

46:17	comes about, then is in order?	...xảy ra, là trong
	K: Of course.	trật tự? K: Dĩ nhiên.

46:20	B: In other words, it doesn't mean	B: Nói cách khác, tức không
	that thought is permanently gone.	phải lúc nào ý nghĩ cũng mất.

46:25	K: No, no. No.	K: Không, không. Không.

46:28	S: It could still be a movement in	S: Nó vẫn chuyển động ở vị
	its proper place; its fitting order.	trí thích hợp; trật tự đúng.

46:31	If the right and proper thought.	Nếu ý nghĩ thích hợp và
	K: Its proper place.	đúng. K: Vị trí thích hợp.

46:35	S: And it comes about…	S: Và nó xảy ra...ý
	I mean, the brain can still...	tôi, não vẫn có thể...

46:38	do that thing. Right?	...làm điều đó.
	B: Yes.	Phải không? B: Vâng.

46:41	K: So, am I - not, 'am I' -	K: Vậy, tôi - không phải
	a human being...	'tôi' - con người...

46:45	is he afraid of all this?	...hắn sợ mọi cái này?

46:48	Unconsciously, deeply, he must	Vô thức, sâu thẳm, hắn
	realise the ending of me.	phải biết chấm dứt cái tôi.

46:58	Do you understand?	Bạn hiểu không?

47:02	And that is really a	Và đó thực sự là
	most frightening thing.	điều đáng sợ nhất.

47:09	me, my knowledge, my books...	...tôi, kiến thức
		tôi, sách vở tôi...

47:12	my wife, my...	...vợ tôi,...
	- you follow?	- kịp không?

47:14	The whole thing which	Toàn bộ sự việc mà
	thought has put together.	ý nghĩ đúc kết lại.

47:18	And you are asking	Và bạn yêu cầu
	me to end all that.	tôi chấm dứt hết.

47:23	B: Yes. Can you say it's	B: Bạn có thể nói đó
	the ending of everything?	là chấm dứt mọi thứ?

47:29	Because everything	Bởi mọi cái tôi
	that I know is in there.	biết ở trong đó.

47:32	K: Absolutely.	K: Đúng vậy.

47:40	So, you see really,	Vậy, bạn thực
	I'm frightened...	sự thấy, tôi sợ...

47:43	a human being is	...con người sợ
	frightened of death.	hãi cái chết.

47:49	- not the biological death.	- không phải chết
	S: To die now.	sinh học. S: Chết ngay.

47:54	K: Death of this	K: Chết của chấm dứt này.
	coming to an end.

48:01	And therefore	Và vì vậy hắn tin
	he believes in god...	vào thượng đế...

48:04	reincarnation, a dozen	...tái sinh, hàng tá
	other comforting things...	điều dễ chịu khác...

48:06	but in actuality...	...nhưng thực tế...

48:10	When thought...	Khi ý nghĩ...

48:14	When thought realises itself	Khi ý nghĩ tự biết mình
	as a movement and sees that...	chuyển động và thấy rằng...

48:19	that movement has	...chuyển động ấy
	created the 'me'...	tạo ra cái 'tôi'...

48:22	the divisions, the quarrels,	...phân chia, tranh
	the political...	cãi, chính trị...

48:25	you follow? - the whole	...kịp không?
	structure of the chaotic world...	- toàn bộ cấu trúc rối loạn thế giới...

48:30	when thought realises it,	...khi ý nghĩ biết thế, nó
	it sees the truth of it and ends.	thấy sự thật đó và chấm dứt.

48:38	Therefore it is in cosmos.	Vậy là nó ở trong vũ trụ.

48:44	Then there is cosmos.	Liền có vũ trụ.

48:49	Now, you listen to this...	Giờ thì, bạn
		nghe điều này...

48:51	how do you receive it?	...bạn tiếp nhận
		nó cách nào?

48:57	S: Do you want me to…	S: Ngài muốn tôi...

48:59	K: Receive it.	K: Tiếp nhận
	S: Receive it.	nó. S: Tiếp nhận nó.

49:01	K: I offer you something.	K: Tôi cho bạn điều gì.
	How do you receive it?	Bạn nhận nó cách nào?

49:08	This is very important.	Điều này rất quan trọng.

49:09	S: Yes. Thought sees	S: Vâng. Ý nghĩ thấy
	its movement...	nó chuyển động...

49:13	K: No, no.	K: Không, không. Bạn
	How do you receive it?	nhận cách nào?

49:22	How does the public...	Làm sao mọi người...

49:24	who listens to all this, say,	...nghe mọi điều này, nói,
	'How am I listening to this...	'Làm sao tôi nghe việc này...

49:33	what is he trying to tell me?'	...hắn cố gắng nói
		với tôi việc gì?'

49:38	S: How?	S: Cách nào?

49:39	K: He says, 'I am not telling	K: Hắn nói, 'Tôi không nói
	you anything'. He says,	với bạn điều gì'. Hắn nói,

49:42	'Listen to what I am	...'Nghe điều tôi nói
	saying and find out...	và tìm cho chính bạn...

49:46	for yourself whether	...xem coi ý nghĩ
	thought as movement...	như chuyển động...

49:52	in that movement it	...trong chuyển động ấy
	has created all this...	nó tạo ra mọi thứ...

49:56	both the technological	...cả thế giới kỹ
	world which is useful...	thuật hữu dụng...

49:58	which is necessary...	...cần thiết và...

50:00	and this chaotic world.	...thế giới rối loạn này.

50:08	K: How do you receive,	K: Làm sao bạn nhận, nghe nó;
	listen to it;

50:11	or the public	...hay mọi người
	- another who is not here...	- ai khác không ở đây...

50:14	listen to it?	...nghe nó?

50:16	How do you listen to it?	Bạn nghe nó cách nào?

50:20	What takes place in you	Điều gì xảy ra
	when you listen to it?	trong bạn khi nghe nó?

50:24	S: Panic.	S: Kinh hoàng. K: Không. Vậy ư?
	K: No. Is it?

50:27	S: Yes. There is a panic about	S: Vâng. Có kinh hoàng
	the death, that death...	về cái chết, chết ấy...

50:34	a sort of fear of the death.	...một loại sợ
		hãi cái chết.

50:40	There is a seeing…	Có cái thấy...có
	there is a sense of seeing...	cảm giác thấy...

50:45	and then there is	...và rồi có sợ
	a fear of that death.	hãi cái chết ấy.

50:49	K: Which means, you have	K: Nghĩa là, bạn
	listened to the words...	có nghe chữ nghĩa...

50:56	the words have	...chữ nghĩa
	awakened the fear.	đánh thức sợ hãi.

51:00	S: Right.	S: Đúng.

51:02	K: But not the	K: Nhưng không phải
	actuality of the fact.	thực tế sự kiện.

51:09	S: I wouldn't say that.	S: Tôi không nói thế. Tôi
	I think that's a little unfair.	nghĩ nó hơi không thật.

51:13	K: I am asking you.	K: Tôi hỏi bạn.

51:14	S: They awaken the	S: Nó đánh thức
	actuality of the fact...	thực tế sự kiện...

51:17	and then there's almost…	...và rồi gần như có...

51:19	there seems to be	...hình như có
	a very quick process.	diễn tiến rất nhanh.

51:21	There is an actuality	Có thực tế của sự kiện...
	of the fact...

51:23	and there seems	...và hình như có im lặng...
	to be a silence...

51:27	a moment of great clarity...	...giây phút tỏ sáng...

51:31	that gives way	...nhượng bộ cho một loại...
	to a kind of...

51:35	feeling in the pit of	...cảm nhận ở lõm
	the stomach where things...	thượng vị nơi vật...

51:37	are dropping out and	...rớt ra và rồi
	then there is a kind of...	có một loại...

51:42	K: Withholding.	K: Giữ lại. S: ...giữ lại.
	S: ...withholding.

51:45	I think there is a whole	Tôi nghĩ có toàn
	movement there.	bộ chuyển động đó.

51:47	K: So, you are describing	K: Vậy, bạn mô tả con người.
	humanity.

51:50	S: Yes, I am trying.	S: Vâng, tôi cố gắng.
	Yes, I am describing me.	Vâng, tôi mô tả tôi.

51:53	K: Who are the humanity.	K: Là con người. B: Cũng thế.
	B: All the same.

51:55	K: You are the viewer, the	K: Bạn là người nhìn,
	people who are listening.	mọi người đang nghe.

51:58	S: Right. There is a sense of	S: Đúng. Có cảm giác về
	'What will happen tomorrow?'	'Ngày mai việc gì xảy ra?'

52:01	K: No, no. That's not the point.	K: Không, không.
		Không phải điểm đó.

52:05	S: I am telling you,	S: Tôi nói với ngài,
	that's that fear.	đó là sợ hãi.

52:07	K: No. When thought realises	K: Không. Khi ý nghĩ
	as a movement...	biết như chuyển động...

52:12	and that movement has created...	...và chuyển
		động ấy tạo ra...

52:14	all this chaos,	...mọi rối loạn,
	total chaos...	cả lộn xộn...

52:18	not just patchy, but	...không chỉ rời rạc,
	complete disorder...	mà vô trật tự hết...

52:26	when it realises that,	...khi nó biết thế,
	what takes place, actually?	thực sự điều gì xảy ra?

52:47	You are not frightened...	Bạn không sợ hãi...

52:52	there is no fear.	...không có sợ hãi.

52:57	Listen to it carefully,	Nghe kỹ nhé,
	there is no fear.	không có sợ hãi.

53:00	Fear is the idea brought	Sợ hãi là ý niệm
	about by an abstraction.	tạo ra bởi trừu tượng.

53:11	You understand?	Bạn hiểu không?

53:13	You have made a	Bạn vẽ ra bức
	picture of ending...	tranh về chấm dứt...

53:18	and frightened	...và sợ hãi
	of that ending.	về chấm dứt ấy.

53:24	S: You are right. You are	S: Ngài đúng. Đúng
	right. There's stop...	rồi. Có dừng lại...

53:29	K: There is no fear…	K: Không có sợ hãi... S: Không
	S: No fear, and then there's...	có sợ, và rồi...

53:33	K: There is no fear when	K: Không có sợ khi
	the actuality takes place.	thực tế xảy ra.

53:39	S: That's right.	S: Đúng thế.

53:42	When the actuality takes	Khi thực tế xảy
	place there is silence.	ra có im lặng.

53:45	K: With the fact there is no fear.	K: Với sự kiện
		không có sợ hãi.

53:47	B: But as soon as the	B: Nhưng khi ý nghĩ xen vào...
	thought comes in...

53:49	K: That's right.	K: Đúng thế. S: Đúng thế.
	S: That's right.

53:50	Now wait, don't go away.	Đợi đã, đừng bỏ đi. (Cười)
	(Laughs)

53:54	K: We have 3 minutes more.	K: Chúng ta còn 3
	S: OK. 3 minutes.	phút. S: Phải. 3 phút

53:58	K: Go on.	K: Tiếp tục.

53:59	S: The fact and the actuality	S: Sự kiện và thực tế
	- no fear.	- không sợ hãi.

54:02	K: That's it. That's it.	K: Đúng đó. Đúng đó.

54:05	S: But then the thought comes in.	S: Nhưng rồi ý nghĩ xen vào.

54:08	K: No.	K: Không.

54:13	Then it's no longer a fact.	Nó không còn là sự kiện.

54:21	You can't remain with the fact.	Bạn không thể ở
		lại với sự kiện.

54:27	B: Well, that's the same as to	B: Nào, đó cũng như nói
	say you keep on thinking…	bạn tiếp tục suy nghĩ...

54:30	K: Keep on moving.	K: Cứ chuyển động. B: Vâng.
	B: Yes.

54:36	Well, as soon as you bring	À, hễ bạn đem ý nghĩ
	thought in and it's not a fact...	vào, nó không là sự kiện...

54:39	that's an imagination	...đó là tưởng
	or a fantasy...	tượng hay hư cấu...

54:41	which is felt to be real...	...mà cảm thấy như thật...

54:43	but it is not so.	...nhưng không phải. S: Đúng.
	S: Right.

54:45	B: Therefore, you are not	B: Vì vậy, bạn không
	with the fact any longer.	còn ở với sự kiện nữa.

54:47	S: So, we are saying…	S: Vậy, chúng ta nói...

54:49	K: We have discovered	K: Chúng ta khám
	something extraordinary...	phá điều lạ lùng...

54:51	when you are faced with	...khi bạn giáp mặt sự
	fact, there is no fear.	kiện, không có sợ hãi.

54:56	B: So, all fear is thought	B: Vậy, mọi sợ hãi
	then, is that it?	là ý nghĩ, phải không?

54:59	K: Yes, that's right.	K: Vâng, đúng thế.

55:01	S: That's a big mouthful…	S: Nhiều lời quá...

55:03	K: No. All thought is fear,	K: Không. Mọi ý nghĩ là
	all thought is sorrow.	sợ, mọi ý nghĩ là khổ.

55:08	B: It goes both ways, all fear is	B: Nó đi chung, sợ hãi là ý
	thought and all thought is fear.	nghĩ và ý nghĩ là sợ hãi.

55:12	K: Of course.	K: Dĩ nhiên.

55:13	B: Except the kind of thought	B: Ngoại trừ loại ý nghĩ
	that arises with the fact alone.	khởi lên chỉ với sự kiện.

55:16	S: I want to interject	S: Tôi muốn xen
	something right here...	vào chỗ này...

55:18	if we have 1 second.	...nếu có một giây.

55:20	It seems to me that	Hình như chúng
	we have discovered...	ta khám phá...

55:21	something quite	...điều gì rất
	important right here...	quan trọng ngay đây...

55:24	and that is,	...và đó là, ở
	at that actual seeing...	chỗ thấy thực sự...

55:27	then the instant of	...liền chợt chú
	attention is at its peak.	tâm ở đỉnh cao.

55:31	K: No. Something new takes place.	K: Không. Điều gì
	S: Yes.	mới xảy ra. S: Vâng.

55:36	K: Something totally, that you	K: Điều gì trọn vẹn, mà
	have never looked at or...	bạn chưa hề nhìn đến hay...

55:41	it has never been understood	...nó chưa hề được hiểu hay
	or experienced, whatever it is.	kinh nghiệm, bất kỳ là gì.

55:45	There is a totally different	Có điều gì hoàn
	thing happening.	toàn khác xảy ra.

55:52	B: But isn't it important that	B: Nhưng không quan trọng là
	we acknowledge this...	chúng ta xác nhận nó...

55:56	in our thought, I mean	...trong ý nghĩ, ý
	in our language?	tôi là trong ngôn ngữ?

55:58	B: As we are doing now. In other	B: Chúng ta đang làm. Nói
	words, if it happened...	cách khác, nếu nó xảy ra...

56:01	and we didn't acknowledge it	...và chúng ta không xác nhận
	then we are liable to fall back.	nó liền có thể rớt lại.

56:04	K: Of course.	K: Dĩ nhiên. S: Tôi không hiểu.
	S: I don't get it.

56:06	B: We have to see it not	B: Chúng ta phải nhìn
	only when it happens...	không chỉ khi nó xảy ra...

56:09	but we have to see	...mà chúng ta phải
	it when it happens...	nhìn nó khi nó xảy ra...

56:11	and we have to say	...và phải nói
	that it happens.	rằng nó xảy ra.

56:14	S: Then are we creating	S: Rồi chúng ta tạo
	a place to localise there?	ra chỗ cho nó ở đó.

56:17	K: No.	K: Không.

56:18	What he is saying	Điều anh ta nói
	is very simple.	rất đơn giản.

56:20	He is saying...	Anh ấy nói...

56:26	Does this fact,	Sự kiện ấy, thực
	actuality take place?	tế ấy có xảy ra?

56:31	And can you remain with that…	Và bạn có thể ở với nó...

56:34	Can thought not move in, but	Ý nghĩ có thể không xen
	remain only with that fact?	vào, mà chỉ ở với sự kiện?

56:47	Sir, it's like saying, remain	Giống như nói, hoàn
	totally with sorrow...	toàn ở đó với đau khổ...

56:55	not move away, not say...	...không chạy đi, không nói...

56:57	'It should be, shouldn't be,	...'Nó nên này, không nên
	how am I to get over it?'...	nọ, làm sao tôi vượt qua?'...

57:00	self-pity and all the rest	...tự xót phận, v.v..
	of it - just totally remain...	- hoàn toàn ở lại đó...

57:03	with that thing, with the fact.	...với việc
		ấy, sự kiện ấy.

57:11	Then you have an energy	Bạn liền có năng
	which is extraordinary.	lực thật lạ lùng.

57:15	S: Right.	S: Đúng.

57:20	K: Can you?	K: Có thể chứ?

57:27	It's time.	Đến giờ rồi.