Krishnamurti - Đau Khổ Tâm lý

Krishnamurti Subtitles

OJ82CNM2 - Đau Khổ Tâm lý
Buổi Thảo Luận thứ hai với Tiến Sĩ Bohm, Hidley & Sheldrake
Ojai, USA
17 tháng Tư 1982

0:05	The Nature of the Mind	H: Bản chất của Trí óc
0:13	Part Two	Phần Hai
0:15	Psychological Suffering	Đau khổ Tâm lý
0:23	This is one of a series of dialogues between J Krishnamurti, David Bohm, Rupert Sheldrake, and John Hidley. The purpose of these discussions is to explore essential questions about the mind, what is psychological disorder, and what is required for fundamental psychological change.	Đây là loạt đối thoại giữa Krishnamurti, David Bohm, Rupert Sheldrake, và John Hidley. Mục đích các buổi thảo luận này là thám sát những vấn đề cơ bản về trí óc, rối loạn tâm lý là gì, và cái gì cần thiết để thay đổi tâm lý cơ bản.
0:43	J Krishnamurti is a religious philosopher, author, and educator, who has written and given lectures on these subjects for many years. He has founded elementary and secondary schools in the United States, England, and India.	J Krishnamurti là nhà triết học tôn giáo, tác giả, và nhà giáo dục đã viết và nói về chủ đề này qua nhiều năm. Ông lập ra vài trường trung và tiểu học ở Mỹ, Anh, và Ấn độ.
0:57	David Bohm is professor of theoretical physics at Birkbeck College, London University in England. He has written numerous books concerning theoretical physics and the nature of consciousness. Professor Bohm and Mr. Krishnamurti have held previous dialogues on many subjects.	David Bohm là giáo sư vật lý lý thuyết trường Birbeck, Đại học London ở Anh. Ông viết nhiều sách về vật lý lý thuyết và bản chất của nhận thức. Giáo sư Bohm và ngài Krishnamurti đã từng đối thoại về nhiều chủ đề.
1:14	Rupert Sheldrake is a biologist, whose recently published book proposes that learning in some members of a species affects the species as a whole. Dr. Sheldrake is presently consulting plant physiologist to the International Crops Research Institute in Hyderabad, India.	Rupert Sheldrake là nhà sinh học, cuốn sách ông vừa xuất bản nêu ra rằng học hỏi ở vài cá thể của loài tác động đến toàn thể loài ấy. Dr. Sheldrake hiện là cố vấn sinh lý thực vật cho Viện Nghiên cứu Trồng trọt Quốc tế ở Hyderabad, Ấn độ.
1:32	John Hidley is a psychiatrist in private practice, who has been associated with the Krishnamurti school in Ojai, California for the past six years.	John Hidley là bác sỹ tâm thần hành nghề tư, đã cộng tác với trường Krishnamurti ở Ojai, California sáu năm qua.
1:41	In the first dialogue the nature of the self was discussed, its relationship to suffering, to society, and to religion. Questions raised were, can one discover or learn about these relationships, and is the need for psychological security the root of the problem? Today's discussion continues with these questions.	Đối thoại trước thảo luận về bản chất của ngã, quan hệ nó với đau khổ, xã hội và tôn giáo. Vấn đề được nêu, bạn có thể khám phá hay học hỏi về quan hệ, và có phải đòi hỏi an toàn tâm lý là gốc của vấn đề? Thảo luận hôm nay tiếp tục các vấn đề này.
2:04	H: We talked yesterday, we started with the question of the origin and nature of psychological disorder, and we suggested that it has its roots in self-centred activity, which is divisive and conflictual in nature, and that biologically such factors as instinctual aggression and dominance drives, the facts of illness and death, all contribute. I wondered if we could start this morning, David, by having you comment on relationship between these biological factors and psychological security.	H: Hôm qua chúng ta nói, đã khởi đầu với vấn đề nguồn gốc và bản chất của rối loạn tâm lý, và gợi ý rằng gốc nó nằm trong hoạt động vị ngã, bản chất nó là phân chia và xung đột, và về sinh học các tác nhân như bản năng hung hăng và thôi thúc thống trị, thực tế bịnh và chết, đều góp phần. Không biết sáng nay chúng ta có thể bắt đầu, David, anh dẫn giải về quan hệ giữa tác nhân sinh học và an toàn tâm lý.
2:43	B: Yes, well, biologically, if you begin with the animal, you have all sorts of things like fear, and anger, and aggression, and they're fairly simple. They exist for a short period while the fact is there, and then they generally disappear, leaving little trace. There may be a few cases in the higher animals where there's some memory, but it's in man that the memory becomes very significant, remembering all these experiences and anticipating the future, you get a very different sort of behaviour. For example, with an animal, he might have a bad experience with another animal, and shortly afterward he'll be in fairly good state of equilibrium, but, say, we have a quarrel between two groups, as in Northern and Southern Ireland, this has been going on for 350 years, and there is a specific effort to remember it which you can see going on. And I think this is the biggest difference.	B: Vâng, à, về sinh học, nếu bắt đầu với thú vật, bạn có nhiều thứ như sợ hãi, giận dữ, và hung hăng, và chúng khá đơn giản. Chúng hiện diện giai đoạn ngắn khi sự kiện ở đó, và rồi nói chung biến mất, lưu lại ít dấu vết. Có thể vài trường hợp ở động vật cấp cao có ít ký ức, nhưng chính con người ký ức trở nên nhiều ý nghĩa, nhớ lại mọi kinh nghiệm và dự trù tương lai, bạn có nhiều loại thái độ khác nhau. Ví dụ, với thú vật, nó có thể có kinh nghiệm xấu với con khác, rồi ít lâu sau nó lại trong trạng thái cân bằng khá tốt, nhưng, ví dụ, chúng ta có cãi cọ giữa hai nhóm, như Bắc và Nam Ailen, việc kéo dài đã 350 năm, và có nổ lực rõ ràng để nhớ lại nó bạn có thể thấy nó tiếp tục. Và tôi nghĩ đó là khác biệt lớn nhất.
3:48	H: Memory being the...	H: Ký ức là...
3:50	B: Yes, the effect of memory, the consequences of memory. You see, memory by itself would obviously not cause any trouble, because it's only a fact, right? But memory has consequences: it may produce fear, it may produce anger; it may produce all sorts of disturbances, to remember what did happen and to anticipate what may happen.	B: Vâng, tác động của ký ức, hậu quả của ký ức. Bạn xem, ký ức tự nó rõ ràng không gây rối loạn gì, bởi chỉ là sự kiện, phải không? Nhưng ký ức có hậu quả: có thể sinh sợ hãi, có thể sinh giận dữ; có thể sinh mọi thứ phiền toái, nhớ lại điều đã xảy ra và dự phóng điều sẽ xảy đến.
4:13	S: You mean thinking about it? B: Yes. Based on memory, right?	S: Ý bạn là nghĩ về nó? B: Vâng. Dựa trên ký ức, đúng không?
4:18	S: I mean, obviously the animal that's been attacked by another animal remembers in the sense that when it sees the other animal again, it's afraid. It probably doesn't think about it in between.	S: Tôi nói, hiển nhiên thú vật bị con khác tấn công nhớ lại trong nghĩa khi thấy lại con kia, nó sợ. Có thể trong lúc đó không có suy nghĩ lại.
4:28	B: Yes, it can't form an image, I don't believe that most animals can form images of the other animals, and I can base that on experience, that I have seen dogs fighting very hard, and as soon as they turn the corner, the dog sort of forgets what happened. He is disturbed but he doesn't know why he is disturbed. Now, if he could remember the other dog after he turned the corner, he could continue the struggle over territory indefinitely. So, the point about territory is, the animal maintains it in a certain limited context. But man remembers it, and he maintains this territory indefinitely and wants to extend it, and so on, because of his thinking about it.	B: Vâng, nó không thể tạo hình ảnh, tôi không tin hầu hết thú vật có thể tạo hình ảnh con khác, và có thể dựa vào kinh nghiệm ấy, tôi thấy chó cắn nhau rất dữ, và rồi đâu về đấy, phần nào đó chó quên việc xảy ra. Nó bị quấy rối mà không biết tại sao bị quấy rối. Giờ, nếu nó có thể nhớ con chó kia sau khi đã đi rồi, nó có thể tiếp tục tranh giành lãnh thổ mãi mãi. Vậy, vấn đề lãnh thổ là, thú vật giữ nó trong phạm vi nào đó. Nhưng con người nhớ lại nó, và họ giữ lãnh thổ mãi mãi và muốn mở rộng nó, v.v.., bởi suy nghĩ về nó.
5:13	S: So, are you suggesting that the basis of the specifically human kind of pain and suffering, over and above the kind of suffering we see in the animal kingdom, is this ability to remember, to brood over it, think about this?	S: Vậy, bạn gợi ý rằng cơ bản rõ ràng đau đớn và đau khổ con người, vượt qua và bên trên loại đau khổ trong vương quốc thú vật là khả năng nhớ lại, nghiền ngẫm, nghĩ về nó?
5:27	B: Yes, the animal may have some of that. I've seen examples on television of a deer who lost its doe, and it was pining away in the wild, but I think it's limited, that is, there is some suffering of that kind in the animal world, but with man it's enormously expanded, it seems limitless. Yes, I think the major point is that with man the thing can build up like a tremendous explosion that fills his whole mind, and it can become the major motive in life, to remember the insult and to revenge the vendetta, in families over many generations. To remember the bad experience you had with somebody and to be frightened of what's coming like the examination that the child may be frightened of, or something like that.	B: Vâng, thú vật có thể có chút ít. Tôi thấy vài ví dụ trên TV về nai mất con cái, và cứ ở một mình nơi hoang dã, nhưng tôi nghĩ nó giới hạn, nghĩa là, vài đau khổ loại ấy nơi thế giới thú vật, nhưng ở con người nó mở rộng, dường như không giới hạn. Vâng, tôi nghĩ vấn đề chính là với con người sự việc có thể dựng lên như bùng nổ lớn lao đầy ắp cả trí óc, và có thể trở thành thôi thúc chính trong đời sống, nhớ lại lăng mạ và trả mối thù truyền kiếp, trong các gia đình qua nhiều thế hệ. Nhớ lại kinh nghiệm xấu bạn có về ai đó và sợ điều sẽ xảy ra như thi cử mà đứa bé có thể sợ, hay gì đó tương tợ.
6:20	K: But have you answered his question, sir?	K: Nhưng bạn trả lời câu hỏi chưa?
6:22	B: Which is? K: Which was...	B: Câu nào? K: Câu...
6:24	H: How does the biological fact of illness, or death, or instinctual drive result in a psychological problem or disorder?	H: Làm sao sự kiện sinh học về bịnh, hay chết, hay thôi thúc bản năng gây hậu quả trong vấn đề hay rối loạn tâm lý?
6:35	B: By thinking about it. I say that the biological fact is not a serious problem, in the long run, but as soon as you begin to think about it, and not merely think about it, but make images about it along with that thought, and to revive the memory and anticipate the feeling of the future, and while you are thinking, then it becomes a very serious problem, because you can't stop it, you see. You will never attain security by thinking about it, but you are constantly seeking security. You see, the purpose of thinking is to give you security in practical affairs, technical affairs. Now, therefore you are doing a similar sort of thinking saying how can I be secure against the possibility of suffering again? And there is no way to do that. You may take technical steps to make it unlikely, but as you think about it, you begin to stir up the whole system and distort the whole mental process.	B: Bằng suy nghĩ về nó. Tôi nói sự kiện sinh học không phải vấn đề nghiêm trọng, trong thời gian dài, nhưng khi bạn bắt đầu nghĩ về nó, và không chỉ nghĩ, mà cả tạo hình ảnh về nó rồi theo suy nghĩ ấy, là làm sống lại ký ức và dự phóng cảm giác về tương lai, và khi bạn nghĩ, nó bèn trở thành vấn đề nghiêm trọng, bởi không thể dừng nó, bạn thấy đó. Bạn sẽ không hề được an ổn khi nghĩ về nó, nhưng bạn luôn tìm an ổn. Bạn xem, mục đích suy tư là để cho bạn an toàn trong công việc thực tiễn, việc kỹ thuật. Giờ, thì bạn cũng làm với loại suy tư như vậy hỏi làm sao tôi có thể an toàn chống lại đau khổ sẽ xảy ra? Và không có cách gì làm được. Không chắc bạn đạt được như kỹ thuật, mà khi nghĩ về nó, bạn bắt đầu khuấy động cả hệ thống và bóp méo cả tiến trình trí óc.
7:48	H: Well, it seems clear that by thinking about it we stir up the emotions and the associations that are those thoughts, but we're not suggesting we shouldn't think about it, are we?	H: Nào, hình như rõ ràng khi nghĩ về nó chúng ta khuấy động cảm xúc và liên tưởng là những ý nghĩ ấy, nhưng không gợi ý không nên nghĩ về nó, phải không?
8:03	B: Well, it depends on how you think about it. This thinking gets to be directed toward giving you a sense of security, you see, an image of security.	B: À, tuỳ thuộc bạn suy nghĩ cách nào. Suy nghĩ đi thẳng đến chỗ cho bạn cảm giác an toàn, bạn xem, hình ảnh về an toàn.
8:15	H: Right. I get hurt when I'm little, or some time along the line, and it creates a fear in me, and I anticipate that kind of situation. I may not even remember the incident, but I want to avoid it in the future.	H: Đúng. Tôi bị tổn thương khi còn bé, hay lúc nào đó, và nó tạo sợ hãi trong tôi, và tôi dự phóng tình huống ấy. Có thể tôi không nhớ lại sự cố, nhưng muốn loại bỏ nó trong tương lai.
8:29	B: Yes, and now, the point is this: the mind is always searching for how to avoid it, and searching out thoughts, images, saying, that fellow is the one who did it, I must keep away from him; coming to conclusions, and if any conclusion gives you an image of security, then the mind holds on to it, right? Without actually any basis.	B: Vâng, và giờ, vấn đề là: trí óc luôn tìm kiếm cách nào loại bỏ nó, và tìm ra ý nghĩ, hình ảnh, bảo, kẻ kia là người đã làm nó, tôi phải tránh xa hắn; đi đến kết luận, và nếu kết luận cho bạn hình ảnh về an toàn, trí óc liền giữ nó, phải không? Mà không cơ sở thực tế gì.
8:53	H: Could you elaborate on that a little?	H: Bạn có thể nói thêm đôi chút?
8:56	B: Well, if you have had a bad experience with somebody, you may conclude that you should never trust him again, for example. Although that might be quite wrong. But the mind is so anxious to have security that it will jump to the conclusion that it's not safe to trust him. Right? H: Yes.	B: À, nếu bạn có kinh nghiệm xấu về ai đó, bạn có thể kết luận đừng bao giờ tin hắn nữa, ví dụ. Dù đó có lẽ hoàn toàn sai. Nhưng trí óc quá lo lắng về an toàn sẽ vội kết luận tin tưởng hắn là không an toàn. Phải không? H: Vâng.
9:19	B: Now, if you find somebody else who seems to treat you well, and reassures you, and flatters you, then you may jump to the conclusion you can completely trust him. Now, the mind is now looking for thoughts that will give it good feelings, because the feelings of the memory are so disturbing to the whole system that its first function is to make the mind feel better, rather than find out what is the fact.	B: Giờ, nếu thấy ai khác có vẻ xử sự tốt với bạn, và an ủi bạn, tâng bốc bạn, bạn liền vội kết luận có thể hoàn toàn tin tưởng hắn. Giờ, trí óc đang tìm kiếm ý nghĩ sẽ cho nó cảm giác tốt, bởi cảm giác về ký ức quá rối loạn cho cả hệ thống mà chức năng đầu tiên của nó là làm trí óc cảm thấy tốt hơn, hơn là tìm xem cái gì thực tế.
9:45	H: Okay, so you're saying that at this point the mind isn't interested in what's true, it's interested in getting secure.	H: Vâng, vậy bạn nói rằng ở điểm này trí óc không thích cái thực, nó thích được an toàn.
9:51	B: Yes, it's so disturbed that it wants to come to order first, and it's adopting a wrong way, as I see it.	B: Vâng, nó quá rối loạn nên muốn có trật tự trước, và nó nhận sai đường, như tôi thấy.
9:58	H: The wrong way being?	H: Sai đường ư?
10:00	B: To think about it and try to find thoughts that will make it feel better.	B: Suy nghĩ về nó và cố tìm ý nghĩ làm nó cảm thấy tốt hơn.
10:04	H: So you're saying that thoughts themselves in some sense are taking the place of reality, that the person is trying to get certain thoughts in his head that make him feel better.	H: Vậy bạn nói rằng ý nghĩ trong nghĩa nào đó đã thay thế thực tế, rằng một người cố có vài ý nghĩ trong đầu làm hắn cảm thấy tốt hơn.
10:16	B: Yes. And that's self-deception.	B: Vâng. Và đó là tự gạt.
10:24	S: What makes you think that the primary drive is for security?	S: Điều gì làm bạn nghĩ thôi thúc đầu tiên là vì an toàn?
10:28	B: Oh, we discussed that yesterday, of course, but I wouldn't be sure that's the only primary drive, but it's obvious, for the animal it's a very important drive to want security, right? We also want pleasure, I think that's another drive, which are closely related.	B: Ồ, chúng ta thảo luận hôm qua dĩ nhiên, nhưng tôi không chắc đó chỉ là thôi thúc đầu tiên, nhưng hiển nhiên, với thú vật thôi thúc rất quan trọng là muốn an toàn, phải không? Chúng ta cũng muốn thú vui, tôi nghĩ đó là thôi thúc khác, nó quan hệ gần.
10:47	S: But to come back to this question of security, in its limited forms security is clearly one goal that we have. People like to have houses and have them secure, and cars, and possessions, and bank balances, and that kind of thing. But there's this factor that comes in, when you've got that, there are two things, actually, that come in, one is maybe the fear that you'll lose it, but the other is boredom with the whole thing and the craving for excitement and thrill. And this doesn't seem to fit within this model of this primary and central craving for security.	S: Nhưng trở lại vấn đề an toàn, ở hình thức giới hạn an toàn rõ ràng là mục đích chúng ta. Mọi người muốn có nhà cửa và có an ổn, và xe hơi, và sở hữu, và tài khoản ngân hàng, đại loại vậy. Nhưng có tác nhân xen vào, khi bạn có nó, có hai việc, thực tế, nó xen vào, một có thể là sợ rằng bạn sẽ mất nó, thứ hai thì chán ngán với mọi việc và khao khát phấn kích và kích động. Và nó dường như không khớp với mô hình khát vọng đầu tiên và trung tâm là vì an toàn.
11:19	B: Well, that's why I said it's only one of the drives, right? That there's also the drive toward pleasure, as an example, much of what you said is included in the drive toward pleasure, right?	B: À, vậy mới nói đó là một thôi thúc, phải không? Rằng cũng có thôi thúc tới thú vui, như ví dụ, nhiều cái bạn nói gồm trong thôi thúc tới thú vui, phải không?
11:29	S: I'm not so sure.	S: Tôi không chắc vậy.
11:30	B: Excitement is pleasurable, and people hope for pleasure and excitement rather than pain, as a rule.	B: Hưng phấn là thú vui, và mọi người muốn thú vui và hưng phấn hơn là đau khổ, như nguyên tắc.
11:37	S: But don't you think there's a pleasure in itself in curiosity, and there's a sense of freedom in discovery that you can get from certain kinds of exploration, which is neither just straightforward pleasure, it's not a repetitive kind of pleasure, nor is it security.	S: Nhưng bạn không nghĩ tự nó có thú vui trong tò mò, và có cảm giác tự do trong khám phá mà bạn có thể có từ vài loại thám hiểm, nó cũng không đưa đến thú vui, không phải thú vui lặp lại, cũng không phải an toàn.
11:50	B: Yes, well, I didn't want to say that all our drives are caught in this thing, I said that if you think about them and base them on memory, then they are going to get caught in this problem. Now, there may be a natural, free interest in things which could be enjoyable, and that need not be a problem, right? But if you were to become dependent on it, and think about it, and say, 'If I don't have it I become very unhappy,' then it would be a similar problem.	B: Vâng, nào, tôi không muốn nói mọi thôi thúc đều kẹt trong việc này, tôi nói nếu bạn nghĩ về chúng và dựa chúng nơi ký ức, thì chúng sẽ kẹt trong vấn đề ấy. Có thể tự nhiên, tự do có thích thú vào việc chắc là vui thú, và không phải là vấn đề, phải không? Nhưng nếu bạn trở nên lệ thuộc nó, và nghĩ về nó, và nói, 'Nếu không có nó tôi trở nên bất hạnh,' thì nó là vấn đề vậy.
12:17	K: But could we go into the question, what is security? What does that word convey? Apart from physical security.	K: Nhưng có thể tìm hiểu vấn đề an toàn là gì chứ? Chữ ấy mang theo gì? Để riêng an toàn vật lý.
12:34	S: I would have said invulnerability.	S: Tôi nói tính không thể bị thương tổn.
12:38	K: Not to be hurt.	K: Không bị thương tổn.
12:40	S: Not to be hurt at all, not to be able to be hurt.	S: Không bị thương tổn gì, không thể bị thương tổn.
12:43	K: Not to be able to be hurt and not to hurt. Physically we are all hurt one way or another - operations, illness, and so on, so on. When you talk about being hurt are you talking about psychological hurts?	K: Không thể bị thương tổn và không thương tổn. Vật lý chúng ta không bị thương tổn này nọ - mổ xẻ, bịnh tật, v.v.. Khi nói về bị thương tổn bạn nói về thương tổn tâm lý?
13:05	H: Yes, I'm wondering how it is that when a person comes into my office, his complaint is his psychological hurts.	H: Vâng, tôi tự hỏi làm sao khi một người vào văn phòng tôi, hắn càu nhàu về thương tổn tâm lý.
13:18	K: How do you deal with it? H: I try and...	K: Bạn làm gì với nó? H: Tôi cố...
13:21	K: Suppose, I come to you. I am hurt from childhood.	K: Giả sử tôi đến. Tôi bị tổn thương từ bé.
13:24	H: Yes. K: I am hurt by the parents, school, college, university.	H: Vâng. K: Tôi bị tổn thương bởi cha mẹ, nhà trường, cao đẳng, đại học.
13:34	H: Yes.	H: Vâng.
13:36	K: When I get married she says something, I am hurt. So, this whole living process seems to be a series of hurts.	K: Khi kết hôn cô ta nói gì đó, tôi bị tổn thương. Vậy, cả tiến trình sống như là hàng loạt tổn thương.
13:44	H: It seems to build up a structure of self that is hurt, and a perception of reality that is inflicting hurt.	H: Hình như xây lên cấu trúc ngã bị tổn thương, và nhận thức về hiện thực gây ra tổn thương.
13:52	K: Yes. Now, how do you deal with it?	K: Vâng. Giờ, bạn làm gì với nó?
14:03	H: I try to help you see how you're doing it.	H: Tôi cố giúp ngài sẽ thấy tôi làm sao.
14:07	K: What do you mean, how I'm doing it?	K: Tôi làm sao, ý bạn là gì?
14:09	H: Well, for example, if you have built up in you the notion that you're one down, or that you're the victim, then you perceive yourself to be victimised, and you perceive the world to be a victimiser. And I help you realise that that's what you're doing.	H: À, ví dụ, nếu ngài xây dựng ý niệm rằng mình thấp kém, hay mình là nạn nhân, thì ngài thấy mình bị là nạn nhân, và ngài thấy thế giới là kẻ ngược đãi. Và tôi giúp ngài thấy điều ngài đang làm.
14:35	K: But by showing me that, will I get rid of my hurt? My hurts, very deep unconscious hurts that I have make me do all kinds of peculiar actions, neurotic, isolating myself.	K: Nhưng thấy được nó, sẽ khỏi tổn thương ư? Tổn thương, tổn thương vô thức rất sâu bắt tôi làm mọi hành động kỳ cục, loạn thần kinh, tự cô lập.
14:58	H: Yes. It appears that people get better, that they realise that they are doing it. And in some local area it seems to help.	H: Vâng. Hình như mọi người thấy khá hơn, họ nhận ra họ làm nó. Và phạm vi nào đó có vẻ giúp được.
15:11	K: No, but aren't you concerned, if I may ask, with not being able to hurt at all?	K: Không, nhưng bạn không quan tâm, tôi xin hỏi, đến không bị tổn thương gì cả sao?
15:23	H: Yes.	H: Vâng.
15:24	B: What do you mean by that, not hurting somebody else or not hurting... not bing hurt inside of you.	B: Ý ngài là sao, không tổn thương ai hết, hay không tổn thương... không bị tổn thương bên trong.
15:29	K: I may hurt others unconsciously, unwillingly, but I wouldn't hurt voluntarily somebody.	K: Tôi có thể tổn thương ai đó, vô thức, không cố ý, nhưng tôi không cố ý tổn thương ai.
15:37	B: Yes, you really don't intend to hurt anybody.	B: Vâng, ngài thực sự không muốn tổn thương ai.
15:39	K: Yes. I wouldn't.	K: Vâng. Không.
15:42	S: Well, maybe not, but I don't see the connection between not hurting other people and not being hurt oneself. At least I'm sure there must be one, but it's not obvious. And most people's view of the best way not to be hurt would be to be in such a position that you can hurt others so much they'd never dare. This is the principle of nuclear retaliation, and this is a very common principle.	S: À, có thể không, nhưng tôi không thấy liên hệ giữa không tổn thương ai với mình không bị tổn thương. Ít ra tôi chắc phải có một, nhưng không hiển nhiên. Và mọi người thấy cách tốt nhất không bị tổn thương là ở trong vị thế bạn có thể tổn thương kẻ khác nhiều mà họ thì không dám. Đó là nguyên lý trả đủa hạt nhân, và đó là nguyên tắc chung.
16:04	K: Yes, of course.	K: Vâng, dĩ nhiên.
16:06	S: So it's not obvious that not hurting others is related to not being hurt oneself. In fact, usually it's taken to be the reverse. It's usually assumed that if you're in a position to hurt others very much you'll be very secure.	S: Vậy không hiển nhiên là không tổn thương ai liên quan đến mình không bị tổn thương. Thực tế, thông thường thì ngược lại. Thường thì cứ cho là nếu bạn ở vị trí tổn thương kẻ khác nhiều thì bạn rất an toàn.
16:18	K: Of course, I mean if you're a king, or a sannyasi, or one of those people who have built a wall round themselves...	K: Dĩ nhiên, tôi nói nếu bạn là vua, hay thầy tu, hay một trong những người xây bức tường quanh họ...
16:25	S: Yes.	S: Vâng.
16:26	K: ...naturally you can never hurt them.	K: ...dĩ nhiên bạn không thể tổn thương họ.
16:28	S: Yes.	S: Vâng.
16:30	K: But when they were children they were hurt.	K: Nhưng khi còn nhỏ họ bị tổn thương.
16:32	S: Yes.	S: Vâng.
16:34	K: That hurt remains. It may remain superficially or in the deep recesses of one's own mind. Now, how do you, as a psychologist, psychotherapist, help another, who is deeply hurt and is unaware of it, and to see if it is possible not to be hurt at all?	K: Tổn thương ấy lưu lại. Lưu lại có thể bên ngoài hay sâu trong tâm trí họ. Giờ, làm sao, như nhà tâm lý, trị liệu tâm lý, bạn giúp họ, kẻ bị tổn thương sâu và không biết, và xem có thể nào không bị tổn thương gì cả?
16:59	H: I don't address the question about is it possible to not be hurt at all. That doesn't come up.	H: Tôi không nói vấn đề về có thể không bị tổn thương gì. Đó không được nêu ra.
17:04	K: Why? Wouldn't that be a reasonable question?	K: Tại sao? Đó không là vấn đề có lý ư?
17:12	H: Well, it seems to be what we are asking here. It is the essence of the question that we're asking. We ask it in terms of particulars only in therapy, and you're asking it more generally, is it possible to end this hurt, period. Not just a particular hurt that I happen to have.	H: À, hình như chúng ta đang hỏi đây. Đó là cơ bản của vấn đề chúng ta hỏi. Chúng ta hỏi chỉ riêng trong trị liệu, và ngài hỏi chung hơn, có thể nào chấm dứt tổn thương, giai đoạn. Không chỉ tổn thương riêng ngẫu nhiên có.
17:32	K: So, how should we proceed?	K: Vậy, tiến hành cách nào?
17:35	H: Well, it would seem that the structure that makes hurt possible is what we have to get at. What makes hurt possible in the first place, not this hurt or that hurt.	H: À, hình như cấu trúc làm tổn thương có thể là cái chúng ta phải nắm. Cái gì làm tổn thương có lẽ quan trọng nhất, chứ không phải tổn thương này nọ.
17:46	K: I think that's fairly simple. Why am I hurt? Because you say something to me which is not pleasant.	K: Tôi nghĩ khá đơn giản. Tại sao tôi bị tổn thương? Bởi bạn nói gì đó tôi không hài lòng.
17:57	H: Well, why should that hurt you?	H: À, tại sao nó tổn thương ngài?
18:00	K: Because I have an image about myself as being a great man. You come along and tell me, don't be an ass. And I get hurt.	K: Bởi tôi có hình ảnh về mình là người vĩ đại. Bạn đến và nói đừng làm con lừa. Và tôi bị tổn thương.
18:10	H: What is it that's being hurt there?	H: Cái gì bị tổn thương đó?
18:13	K: There, the image which I have about myself. I am a great cook, a great scientist, a great carpenter, whatever you will. I have got that picture in myself, and you come along and put a pin into it. And that gets hurt. The image gets hurt. The image is me.	K: Đó, hình ảnh tôi có về tôi. Tôi là đầu bếp vĩ đại, nhà khoa học lớn, thợ mộc hàng đầu, gì gì bạn muốn. Tôi có hình ảnh ấy trong tôi, và bạn đến và đâm kim vào nó. Và nó bị tổn thương. Hình ảnh bị tổn thương. Hình ảnh là tôi.
18:37	B: I feel that that will not be terribly clear to many people. How can I be an image, many people will ask. How can an image get hurt, because if an image is nothing at all, why does it hurt?	B: Tôi cảm thấy đó quá khó hiểu cho nhiều người. Làm sao tôi có thể là hình ảnh, nhiều người sẽ hỏi. Làm sao hình ảnh bị tổn thương, bởi nếu hình ảnh là không có gì, tại sao nó tổn thương?
18:49	K: Because I have invested into that image a lot of feeling.	K: Bởi tôi đầu tư vào hình ảnh ấy quá nhiều cảm giác.
18:53	B: Yes.	B: Vâng.
18:55	K: A lot of ideas, emotions, reactions - all that is me, that is my image.	K: Quá nhiều ý niệm, cảm xúc, phản ứng - tất cả đó là tôi, là hình ảnh của tôi.
19:03	H: It doesn't look like an image to me though, it looks like something real.	H: Nó không có vẻ là hình ảnh với tôi, nó như gì đó thực.
19:08	K: Ah, of course, for most people it's very real.	K: À, dĩ nhiên, với đa số người nó rất thực.
19:12	H: Yes.	H: Vâng.
19:13	K: But that is me, the reality of that image is me.	K: Nhưng đó là tôi, hiện thực hình ảnh là tôi.
19:17	H: Yes. Well, can we get clear that it's an image and not real?	H: Vâng. Nào, có thể làm rõ nó là hình ảnh và không thực?
19:24	K: Image is never real; symbol is never real.	K: Hình ảnh không hề thực; biểu tượng không hề thực.
19:28	H: You're saying that I'm just a symbol.	H: Ngài nói tôi chỉ là biểu tượng.
19:31	K: Perhaps. H: That's a big step.	K: Có lẽ. (Cười) H: Đó là bước lớn lao.
19:43	K: From that arises the question whether it's possible not to have images at all.	K: Từ đó nổi lên câu hỏi có thể không có hình ảnh gì được chăng.
19:54	S: Well, wait a minute. I don't think we've clearly established that I am an image.	S: À, đợi chút. Tôi không nghĩ chúng ta làm rõ rằng tôi là hình ảnh.
20:00	K: Ah, let's go into it.	K: À, hãy tìm hiểu xem.
20:03	S: I mean, it's not entirely clear. I mean, it's obvious that to some extent one is an image, that when I have a feeling about myself, and so on. It's not entirely clear that this is entirely unjustified. You see, certain aspects of it may be exaggerated, certain aspects may be unrealistic, but, one approach would be, we've got to remove, shave off these unrealistic aspects, pare it down to sort of reasonable size. And then that which remains would be the real thing.	S: Ý tôi, nó không hoàn toàn rõ. Hiển nhiên đến độ nào đó bạn là hình ảnh, khi tôi có cảm giác về mình, v.v.. Đó chưa đủ rõ và chưa thuyết phục hoàn toàn. Ngài xem, phương diện nào đó có thể bị phóng đại, phương diện nào đó có thể không thực, nhưng, một tiếp cận, chúng ta phải loại bỏ, quét đi các mặt không thực ấy, giảm nó xuống đến độ hợp lý. Và rồi còn lại điều gì thực.
20:33	K: So, sir, are you raising the question, what am I?	K: Vậy, bạn gợi lên câu hỏi, tôi là ai?
20:37	S: Well, I suppose so, yes.	S: À, giả sử vậy, vâng.
20:39	K: Yes, basically. What are you? What is each one of us? What is a human being? That's the question that's involved.	K: Vâng, cơ bản. Bạn là ai? Mỗi chúng ta là ai? Con người là gì? Câu hỏi ấy nằm trong đó.
20:51	S: Yes, that seems unavoidable.	S: Vâng, có vẻ không tránh khỏi.
20:53	K: Yes. What am I? I am the form, the physical form, the name, the result of all education. H: Your experience.	K: Vâng. Tôi là ai? Tôi là hình dáng, hình dáng vật lý, tên, kết quả của mọi giáo dục. H: Kinh nghiệm.
21:09	K: My experiences, my beliefs, my ideals, principles, the incidents that have marked me.	K: Kinh nghiệm, niềm tin, lý tưởng, nguyên tắc, những sự cố ghi dấu trong tôi.
21:22	H: The structures you've built up that are how you function.	H: Cấu trúc bạn xây lên cho cách bạn hoạt động.
21:24	K: Yes. H: Your skills.	K: Vâng. H: Các kỹ năng.
21:26	K: My fears, my activities, whether they are limited or my so-called affection, my gods, my country, my language, fears, pleasures, suffering - all that is me.	K: Sợ hãi, hoạt động, dù chúng giới hạn hay cái gọi là mến yêu, thượng đế, tổ quốc, ngôn ngữ, sợ hãi, thú vui, đau khổ - thảy đều là tôi.
21:43	H: Yes.	H: Vâng.
21:45	K: That's my consciousness.	K: Đó là nhận thức tôi.
21:48	H: And your unconscious. K: That's my whole content of me.	H: Và nhận thức bạn. K: Đó là cả tích chứa của tôi.
21:53	H: Okay.	H: Đúng.
21:56	B: But there's still that feeling of actuality that me is there. I mean, you may say, you could reasonably argue that that's all there is to me, but when something happens there's the feeling of its actual presence, at that moment.	B: Nhưng còn có cảm giác thực tế rằng tôi ở kia. ý tôi, bạn có thể nói, có thể tranh luận rằng mọi cái kia là tôi, nhưng khi có gì xảy ra có cảm giác nó hiện hữu thực, vào lúc ấy.
22:11	K: I don't quite follow you there.	K: Tôi thực không theo kịp.
22:15	B: If somebody reacts to being hurt or angry, he feels at that moment that there's more than that, that there is something deep inside which has been hurt, right?	B: Nếu ai phản ứng với tổn thương hay nổi giận, hắn cảm thấy lúc ấy có gì hơn thế, có gì đó sâu bên trong bị tổn thương, phải không?
22:29	K: I don't quite see. My image can be such a deep... That's my image, at all levels.	K: Tôi thực không hiểu. Hình ảnh tôi có thể sâu vậy, đó là hình ảnh ở mọi mức độ.
22:45	B: Yes, but how...	B: Vâng, nhưng làm sao...
22:47	K: Wait, sir, I have an image of myself, suppose, that I am a great poet, or a great painter, or a great writer. Apart from that image as a writer, I have other images about myself. I have an image about my wife, and she has an image about me, and there are so many images I've built around myself; and the image about myself also. So, I may gather a bundle of images. B: Yes, I understand.	K: Khoan đã, tôi có hình ảnh về mình, ví dụ, rằng tôi là nhà thơ lớn, hay họa sĩ vĩ đại, hay cây bút lớn lao. Ngoài hình ảnh như cây bút, tôi có hình ảnh khác về mình. Tôi có hình ảnh về vợ tôi, và cô ta có hình ảnh về tôi. và có quá nhiều hình ảnh tôi dựng lên quanh mình, và cả hình ảnh về chính tôi. Vậy, tôi có thể gom cả lô hình. B: Vâng, tôi hiểu.
23:25	K: Partial. B: Yes, you are saying that there is nothing but this bundle of images.	K: Một phần. B: Vâng, ngài nói rằng không có gì ngoài một lô hình ảnh.
23:30	K: Of course! B: But the question is how are we to see this as an actual fact?	K: Dĩ nhiên! B: Nhưng vấn đề là làm sao tôi thấy nó như thực tế thực?
23:34	K: Ah. S: But wait a minute, there is something but this bundle of images. I mean, I'm sitting right here, now, seeing you, and all the rest of it. Now, I have the feeling there's a centre of action or centre of consciousness, which is within my body and associated with it, which has a centre, and it's not you, and it's not you, and it's not David, it's me. And associated with this centre of action, my body, sitting here, is a whole lot of memories and experiences, and without those memories I wouldn't be able to speak, to talk, to recognise anything. K: Of course, of course.	K: À. S: Nhưng đợi chút, có gì đó nhưng chỉ là một lô hình ảnh. Ý tôi, tôi ngồi ngay đây, bây giờ, thấy ngài, và v.v.. Giờ tôi có cảm giác có trung tâm hành động hay trung tâm nhận thức, nó ở trong thân tôi và liên đới với nó, nó có trung tâm, và không phải bạn, không phải bạn, không phải David, là tôi. Và liên đới với trung tâm hành động ấy, thân tôi, ngồi đây, là cả hàng lô ký ức và kinh nghiệm, và không có ký ức ấy tôi không thể nói, bàn luận, nhận biết gì. K: Dĩ nhiên, dĩ nhiên.
24:09	S: So, there seems to be some substance to this image of myself. There may be false images associated with it, but there seems to be a reality which I feel as I sit here. So it's not entirely illusory.	S: Vậy, hình như có vài chất liệu cho hình ảnh về mình. Có thể có hình ảnh sai liên đới với nó, nhưng hình như có hiện thực tôi cảm thấy như ngồi đây. Vậy không phải hoàn toàn ảo.
24:21	K: Sir, are you saying that you are totally, basically different from the three of us?	K: Bạn nói rằng bạn hoàn toàn, cơ bản khác với ba chúng tôi ư?
24:27	S: Well, I'm in a different place and I have a different body.	S: Nào, tôi ở khác chỗ và tôi có thân thể khác.
24:30	K: Of course. S: And in that sense I'm different.	K: Dĩ nhiên. S: Và tôi khác trong nghĩa đó.
24:32	K: Of course, I admit that, I mean, you're tall, I'm short, I'm brown, you're... S: Yes.	K: Dĩ nhiên, đồng ý vậy, ý tôi, bạn cao, tôi thấp, tôi nâu, bạn... S: Vâng.
24:36	K: ...black, or you're white, or you're pink, or whatever it is.	K: ...đen, hay bạn trắng, hay hồng, hay gì gì.
24:39	S: Now, at another level I'm not basically different in the sense that we can all speak the same language and communicate, so there's something in common. And at a purely physical level all of us have a lot in common with each other, the same kinds of enzymes, chemicals, and so on. And those indeed - hydrogen atoms, oxygen atoms - we have in common with everything else.	S: Giờ, ở mức độ khác, cơ bản tôi không khác trong nghĩa chúng ta đều nói cùng ngôn ngữ và trau đổi nhau, nên có gì đó chung. Và thuần ở mức độ vật lý chúng ta đều có chung nhau gì đó, cùng loại enzim, chất hóa học, v.v.. và thực tế chúng - nguyên tử hyđrô, ôxy - chúng ta có chung với mọi cái khác.
24:58	K: Yes. Now, is your consciousness different from the rest? Consciousness, not bodily responses, bodily reactions, bodily conditioning, is your consciousness, that is your beliefs, your fears, your anxieties, depressions, faith - all that?	K: Vâng. Vậy nhận thức bạn khác với mọi người sao? Nhận thức, không phải đáp ứng cơ thể, phản ứng cơ thể, qui định thân xác, là nhận thức bạn, nó là niềm tin, sợ hãi, lo âu, nản lòng, tín ngưỡng - mọi thứ đó?
25:26	S: Well, I would say that many of the contents of my consciousness or many of the beliefs, desires, etc. I have, other people also have. But I would say the particular combination of experiences, memories, desires, etc. I have, are unique, because I've had a particular set of experiences, as you have and as everyone has, which makes a unique combination of these different elements.	S: À, tôi có thể nói rằng nhiều tích chứa nhận thức hay nhiều niềm tin, dục vọng, v.v.. Tôi có, người khác cũng có. Nhưng tôi nói sự phối hợp riêng của kinh nghiệm, ký ức, dục vọng, v.v.. Tôi có, là duy nhất, bởi tôi có kinh nghiệm riêng, cũng như bạn có hay mọi người có, làm nên sự phối hợp duy nhất những yếu tố khác biệt này.
25:46	K: So, is mine unique? S: Yes.	K: Vậy, của tôi là duy nhất? S: Vâng.
25:48	K: So is his? S: Exactly.	K: Của anh ta cũng vậy? S: Chính xác.
25:50	K: The uniqueness makes it all common. It's no longer unique.	K: Tính duy nhất làm thành chung. Không còn duy nhất nữa.
25:56	S: That's a paradox. It's not immediately clear.	S: Đó là nghịch lý. Không rõ ràng lắm.
26:01	B: Why isn't it clear? Everybody's unique, right?	B: Tại sao không rõ? Mỗi người là duy nhất, phải không?
26:04	S: Yes, we're all unique. K: I question that.	S: Vâng, chúng ta đều duy nhất. K: Tôi hỏi đó.
26:06	S: We're not unique in the same way. Otherwise the word 'unique' becomes meaningless. If we're unique, each of us is unique, we have a unique set of experiences, environmental factors, memories, etc.	S: Chúng ta không duy nhất trên cùng hướng. Ngược lại chữ 'duy nhất' thành vô nghĩa. Nếu chúng ta duy nhất, mỗi người là duy nhất, chúng ta có duy nhất kinh nghiệm, tác nhân hoàn cảnh, ký ức, v.v..
26:22	K: That's what you just now said, that's common lot to all of us.	K: Đó là điều bạn vừa nói, nó chung cho mọi người.
26:24	S: Yes, we all have it, but what we have is different.	S: Vâng, đều có, nhưng cái chúng ta có khác nhau.
26:28	K: Yes, you brought up in England, and perhaps another brought up in America, another brought up in Chile, we all have different experiences, different country, different views, different mountains, and so on.	K: Vâng, bạn lớn lên ở Anh, và có thể ai khác lớn lên ở Mỹ, ai đó lớn lên ở Chi lê, chúng ta đều có kinh nghiệm khác, xứ sở khác, tầm nhìn khác, núi non khác, v.v..
26:44	S: Yes.	S: Vâng.
26:47	K: But apart from the physical environment, linguistic differences, and accidents of experience, basically, fundamentally, deep down, we suffer, we are frightened to death, we are anxious, we have agony about something or other, and conflict - that's the ground on which we all stand.	K: Nhưng ngoài hoàn cảnh vật lý, khác ngôn ngữ, những kinh nghiệm tình cờ, căn bản, cơ bản, sâu thẳm, chúng ta đau khổ, chúng ta sợ chết, lo âu, chúng ta thống khổ việc này khác, và xung đột, - là nền tảng chúng ta đứng trên đó.
27:17	S: But that doesn't seem a very startling conclusion.	S: Nhưng hình như đó không phải kết luận đáng ngạc nhiên.
27:20	K: No, it is not.	K: Không, không phải.
27:22	B: But I think, what you are saying really implies that what we have in common is essential and fundamental rather than just superficial. And now, I've talked with people about this, and they say, everybody agrees, we all have these things in common, but sorrow, suffering, and so on, are not so important; the really important point are the higher achievements of culture and things like that, as an example.	B: Nhưng tôi nghĩ, điều ngài nói thực sự hàm ý rằng chung qui cái chúng ta có là nền tảng, cơ bản chứ không phải bề mặt. Và, tôi nói với mọi người về nó, và họ bảo, ai cũng đồng ý, chúng ta đều có những cái đó, nhưng đau đớn, khổ sở, v.v.., không quá quan trọng; điều thực sự quan trọng là đạt được cao hơn về văn hóa và việc như vậy, là ví dụ.
27:48	H: Maybe the distinction is between the form and the content. Our contents are all different, and they have similarities and differences, but maybe the form is the same, the structure.	H: Có lẽ có phân biệt giữa hình thức và nội dung. Nội dung thì khác, và chúng có tương đồng và dị biệt, nhưng có lẽ hình thức như nhau, cấu trúc.
27:59	K: I would say contents are the same for all human beings.	K: Tôi nói nội dung là như nhau ở con người.
28:03	S: But you see, I can recognise that there is such a thing as common humanity, but I would regard that quite possibly as an abstraction or a projection rather than a reality. How do I know that is not an abstraction?	S: Nhưng ngài xem, tôi có thể nhận thấy việc ấy như chung nhân loại, nhưng tôi đánh giá rất có thể như trừu tượng hay ý niệm hơn là thực tế. Làm sao tôi biết nó không phải trừu tượng?
28:17	K: Because you go around the world, you see people suffer, you see human beings in agony, despair, depression, loneliness, lack of affection, lack of care, attention, that's the basic human reactions, that is part of our consciousness.	K: Bởi đi quanh thế giới, bạn thấy mọi người đau khổ, thấy mọi người thống khổ, nản chí, ngã lòng, cô đơn, thiếu yêu thương, thiếu chăm sóc, quan tâm, đó là phản ứng cơ bản con người, đó là thành phần của nhận thức.
28:47	S: Yes.	S: Vâng.
28:49	K: So, you are not basically different from me. You may be tall, you may be born in England, I may be born in Africa, I have a dark skin, but deep down the river the content of the river is the water. The river is not Asiatic river, or European river, it is a river.	K: Vậy, cơ bản bạn không khác tôi. Bạn có thể cao, sinh ra ở Anh, tôi có thể sinh ở Phi châu, tôi có da xậm, nhưng sâu trong dòng sông chứa đựng của sông là nước. Dòng sông không phải châu Á, hay châu Âu, nó là dòng sông.
29:21	S: Yes, well that is clearly true at some level. But I am not quite sure at what level, you see.	S: Vâng, rõ ràng đúng ở mức độ nào đó. Nhưng tôi không chắc ở mọi mức độ, ngài xem.
29:26	K: I am talking basically, deeply.	K: Tôi nói cơ bản, sâu thẳm.
29:31	S: But you see, it seems to me, why stop there? I can see something in common with all other human beings, but I can also by looking at animals see something in common with them. We have a great deal in common with the animals.	S: Nhưng ngài xem, có vẻ với tôi, tại sao dừng ở đó? Tôi có thể nhìn gì đó chung với người khác, nhưng cũng có thể nhìn loài vật và thấy gì đó chung với chúng. Chúng ta có rất nhiều điểm chung với loài vật.
29:45	K: Surely, surely. S: So why stop at human beings?	K: Chắc rồi, chắc rồi. S: Vậy tại sao dừng ở con người?
29:47	K: I don't. S: Why not say...	K: Không. S: Tại sao không nói...
29:49	K: Because I say if I feel... I don't like the word 'common.' One feels that is the ground on which all human beings stand. Their relationship with nature, animals, and so on, and the content of our consciousness is, again, the ground of humanity. Love is not English, American, or Indian. Hate is not, agony is not yours or mine, it is agony. But we identify ourselves with agony, it is my agony, which is not yours.	K: Bởi tôi nói nếu cảm thấy... Tôi không thích chữ 'chung.' Bạn cảm thấy đó là nền tảng chung mọi người đứng. Quan hệ họ với thiên nhiên, loài vật, v.v.. và tích chứa nhận thức chúng ta lại là, nền tảng của nhân loại. Tình thương không phải Anh, Mỹ, hay Ấn. Thù hận cũng không, thống khổ không của bạn hay tôi, nó là thống khổ. Nhưng chúng ta đồng hoá mình với thống khổ, thống khổ của tôi, không phải của bạn.
30:46	S: We might go through it in very different ways though.	S: Dù chúng ta có thể trải qua nhiều lối khác nhau.
30:50	K: Different expressions, different reactions, but basically it is agony. Not German agony and Asiatic agony. It's not what is happening - British and Argentine, it is human conflict. Why do we separate ourselves from all this? The British, the Argentine, the Jew, the Arab, the Hindu, the Muslim. You follow? Which all seems so nonsensical, tribal. The worship of a nation is tribalism. So, why can't we wipe out all that?	K: Biểu hiện khác, phản ứng khác, nhưng cơ bản là thống khổ. Không phải thống khổ Đức hay châu Á. Không phải gì đó xảy ra - Anh và Á căn đình, là xung đột nhân loại. Tại sao chúng ta phân chia mình với chúng? Anh, Á căn đình, Do thái, Ả rập, Hin đu, Hồi. Kịp không? Tất cả hình như vô nghĩa, bộ lạc. Tôn thờ quốc gia là chủ nghĩa bộ lạc. Vậy, tại sao chúng ta không thể quét hết?
31:37	S: I don't know. You tell me, why can't we?	S: Tôi không biết. Ngài nói đi, tại sao không thể?
31:40	K: Because, again, we have come back to the question: I identify with my nation, because that gives me a certain strength, certain standard, certain status, certain security. When I say, 'I am British'... So, this division is one of the reasons of war, not only economic, social, and all the rest of it. Nationalism, which is really glorified tribalism, is the cause of war. Why can't we wipe that out? It seems so reasonable.	K: Bởi vì, chúng ta trở lại câu hỏi: Tôi đồng hóa với quốc gia, bởi nó cho tôi sức mạnh nào đó, tiêu chuẩn, địa vị, an toàn nào đó. Khi nói, 'tôi là người Anh'... Thì, phân chia ấy là một lý do chiến tranh, chứ không phải kinh tế, xã hội, v.v.. Chủ nghĩa dân tộc, nó thực ngợi ca chủ nghĩa bộ lạc, là nguyên nhân chiến tranh. Tại sao không thể quét đi? Hình như quá hợp lý.
32:28	H: It seems reasonable on a level like nationalism; people don't think they are England.	H: Có vẻ hợp lý ở mức độ như chủ nghĩa quốc gia; người ta không nghĩ mình là người Anh.
32:35	K: Start from there. H: Okay. But then I have a patient, and he does think that he is married and that it is his wife. K: Yes. Of course, it is his wife.	K: Bắt đầu từ đó. H: Vâng. Nhưng rồi tôi có bịnh nhân, và anh ta nghĩ mình kết hôn và kia là vợ hắn. K: Vâng. Dĩ nhiên, là vợ anh ta.
32:50	H: Well, isn't that the same action that you are talking about?	H: À, không phải là cùng hành động ngài đang nói sao?
32:53	K: No, no. Sir, just let's go into it slowly.	K: Không, không. Hãy tìm hiểu chậm thôi.
32:59	H: Okay.	H: Vâng.
33:02	K: Why do I want to identify myself with something greater? Like nationalism, like god.	K: Tại sao tôi muốn đồng hóa mình với gì đó lớn hơn? H: Bởi tôi không đầy đủ. K: Như chủ nghĩa dân tộc, thượng đế.
33:14	H: Because I don't feel sufficient. K: Which means what?	H: Tôi không cảm thấy đủ. K: Vậy nghĩa gì?
33:18	H: Insecure.	H: Không an toàn.
33:19	K: Insecure, insufficient, lonely, isolated. I have built a wall round myself. H: Yes.	K: Không an toàn, không đầy đủ, cô đơn, cô lập. Tôi xây bức tường quanh mình. H: Vâng.
33:31	K: So, all this is making me desperately lonely. And out of that conscious or unconscious loneliness I identify with god, with the nation, with Mussolini - it doesn't matter - Hitler, or any religious teacher.	K: Vậy, mấy cái đó làm tôi quá cô đơn. Và từ cô đơn vô thức hay hữu thức ấy tôi đồng hóa với thượng đế, với quốc gia, với Mussolini, không sao - Hitler, hay bậc thầy tôn giáo.
33:52	H: Okay. Or I get married, I have a job, I make a place for myself.	H: Vâng. Hay kết hôn, có việc làm, tôi tạo điạ vị cho mình.
33:56	K: Yes. H: And that's all also identification.	K: Vâng. H: Và cũng đều là đồng hóa.
33:59	K: Yes. Why do we want to identify with something? No, the basic question is too, why do we want roots?	K: Vâng. Tại sao chúng ta muốn đồng hóa với điều gì? Không, câu hỏi cơ bản cũng là, tại sao chúng ta muốn gốc rễ?
34:10	H: To belong. K: To belong, which is also implied to become. H: Yes.	H: Thuộc về. K: Thuộc về, nó cũng hàm ý trở thành. H: Vâng.
34:21	K: So, this whole process of becoming, from childhood, I am asked to become, become, become. From the priest to the bishop, the bishop to the cardinal, the cardinal to the pope. And in the business world it is the same. In the spiritual world it is the same. I am this, but I must become that.	K: Vậy, cả tiến trình trở thành này, từ nhỏ tôi mong trở thành, trở thành, trở thành. Từ thầy tu đến giám mục, giám mục đến hồng y, hồng y đến giáo hoàng. Và việc thế gian cũng y vậy. Thế giới tâm linh cũng thế. Tôi là vầy, nhưng phải trở thành kia.
34:48	H: Okay, what I am is not sufficient.	H: Vâng, cái tôi không đầy đủ.
34:50	K: Why do we want to become? What is it that is becoming?	K: Tại sao chúng ta muốn trở thành? Cái gì trở thành?
35:01	S: Any obvious reason for wanting to become is a feeling of insufficiency, inadequacy, in the state that we are. And one of the reasons for this is that we live in an imperfect world, our relations with other people are imperfect. We are not content for a variety of reasons with the way we are. So the way out of that seems to become something else.	S: Lý do hiển nhiên muốn trở thành là cảm thấy không đầy đủ, thiếu thốn, chúng ta trong trạng thái ấy. Và một lý do nữa là chúng ta sống trong thế giới bất toàn, quan hệ với người khác là bất toàn. Chúng ta không hài lòng vì nhiều lý do với lối sống mình. Nên lối bước ra hình như là trở thành gì khác.
35:24	K: Yes. That means escaping from 'what is.'	K: Vâng. Nghĩa là trốn tránh 'hiện là.'
35:30	S: Yes. But it may seem 'what is' is something we have a need to escape from, because there is something wrong with it.	S: Vâng. Nhưng có vẻ 'hiện là' là điều gì chúng ta cần chạy trốn, bởi có gì sai trong đó.
35:36	K: All right. Take the usual experience. I am violent, and I have invented non-violence. Right? And I am trying to become that. I'll take years to become that. In the meantime I am violent. So, I have never escaped from violence. It is just an invention.	K: Được rồi. Lấy kinh nghiệm thông thường. Tôi bạo lực, và tôi đặt ra không bạo lực. Phải không? Và tôi cố trở thành nó. Tôi mất nhiều năm trở thành nó. Trong lúc ấy tôi bạo lực. Vậy, tôi không hề chạy trốn bạo lực. Đó chỉ là đặt ra.
36:00	S: Well, you are trying to escape from it. You may escape in the end.	S: Này, ngài đang cố trốn tránh nó. Cuối cùng ngài có thể trốn.
36:06	K: No, I don't want to escape. I want to understand the nature of violence, what is implied in it, whether it is possible to live a life without any sense of violence.	K: Không, tôi không muốn chạy trốn. Tôi muốn hiểu bản chất của bạo lực, cái gì hàm ẩn trong đó, có thể nào sống một đời không có cảm giác bạo lực.
36:19	S: But what you are suggesting is a more effective method of escaping. You are not suggesting an abandoning the idea of escaping. You are suggesting that the normal way of escaping, trying to become nonviolent, is one way of doing it which doesn't work. Whereas if you do another method, where you actually look at the violence in a different way, you can become non-violent. K: I am not escaping.	S: Nhưng điều ngài gợi ý là phương pháp chạy trốn hữu hiệu. Ngài không gợi ý rời bỏ ý niệm chạy trốn. Ngài gợi ý rằng lối chạy trốn thông thường, cố trở nên không bạo lực, là cách làm không được. Nhưng nếu ngài làm cách khác, ngài thực sự nhìn bạo lực cách khác, ngài có thể thành không bạo lực. K: Tôi không chạy trốn.
36:40	S: Well, you are changing then.	S: À, ngài thay đổi rồi.
36:42	K: No. I am violent. S: Yes.	K: Không. Tôi bạo lực. S: Vâng.
36:45	K: I want to see what is the nature of violence, how it arises.	K: Tôi muốn thấy bản chất bạo lực là gì, khởi lên cách nào.
36:50	S: But for what purpose?	S: Nhưng mục đích gì?
36:51	K: To see whether it is possible to be free of it completely.	K: Để xem có thể nào thoát khỏi nó hoàn toàn.
36:55	S: But isn't that a kind of escape from it?	S: Nhưng đó không phải là loại chạy trốn sao?
36:57	K: No. S: Being free of something...	K: Không. S: Thoát khỏi điều gì...
36:59	K: ...is not an escape. S: Why not?	K: ...không phải chạy trốn. S: Sao không?
37:01	K: Avoidance, running away, fly away from 'what is' is an escape, but to say, look, this is what I am, let's look at it, let's observe what its content is. That is not escape!	K: Bỏ, chạy đi, chạy khỏi 'hiện là' là chạy trốn, nhưng nói, nào, đây là tôi, hãy nhìn nó đi, hãy quan sát nội dung nó là gì. Đó không chạy trốn!
37:16	S: Oh, I see, the distinction you are making is that if you run away, and escape in a normal sense is running away from something, like escaping from prison, or one's parents, or whatever, but they still remain there. What you are saying is that rather than escaping from violence, which leaves violence intact and still there, and you try and distance yourself from it, you try to dissolve violence, or abolish it.	S: Ồ, tôi hiểu, ngài phân rõ là nếu chạy đi, và chạy trốn trong ý nghĩa thông thường là chạy khỏi điều gì, như trốn khỏi nhà tù, hay cha mẹ, hay gì gì, nhưng họ vẫn còn đó. Điều ngài nói là khác hơn chạy trốn bạo lực, để bạo lực đó không chạm đến, và ngài cố và khoảng cách ngài với nó, ngài cố giải tan bạo lực, hay huỷ bỏ nó.
37:39	K: Dissolve. S: Yes.	K: Giải tan. S: Vâng.
37:41	K: Not abolish it, dissolve. S: All right. So this is different from escape, because you are trying to dissolve the thing rather than run away from it.	K: Không huỷ bỏ nó, giải tan. S: Được thôi. Vậy nó khác với chạy trốn, bởi ngài cố gắng giải tan sự việc hơn là chạy trốn nó.
37:51	K: Running away is... Everybody runs away.	K: Chạy trốn là... Mọi người chạy trốn.
37:57	S: Well, it usually works, to a limited extent.	S: À, nó thường hoạt động, đến khoảng giới hạn.
37:59	K: No. It's like running away from my agony by going to football. I come back home, it is there! I don't want to go to watch football, but I want to see what violence is and see if it is possible to be completely free of it.	K: Không. Nó như chạy trốn nổi đau vì đến với bóng đá. Tôi trở về nhà, nó kìa! Tôi không muốn xem bóng đá, nhưng tôi muốn xem bạo lực là gì và xem có thể nào thoát khỏi nó hoàn toàn.
38:24	S: If I am in a very unpleasant society and I can escape from it by defecting, or leaving it and going to another one. And this does in fact mean I escape to some extent.	S: Nếu tôi ở trong xã hội không dễ chịu và có thể chạy trốn bởi bỏ đi, hay lìa bỏ nó và đến nơi khác. Và đó thực tế là tôi chạy trốn đến giới hạn nào.
38:34	K: Of course.	K: Dĩ nhiên.
38:36	S: So these are always partial answers and they are partially effective.	S: Vậy đó luôn là câu trả lời một phần và hiệu quả một phần.
38:41	K: I don't want to be partially violent. Or partially free from it. I want to find out if it is possible to totally end it. That's not an escape, that's putting my teeth into it.	K: Tôi không muốn là bạo lực một phần. Hay thoát khỏi nó một phần. Tôi muốn tìm xem có thể nào chấm dứt hoàn toàn. Đó không phải chạy trốn, đó là giải quyết nó.
38:56	S: Yes. But you have to believe it is possible in order to put your teeth into it.	S: Vâng. Nhưng ngài phải tin là có thể để giải quyết nó.
39:03	K: I don't know, I am going to investigate. I said, for me, I know one can live without violence. But that may be a freak, that may be a biological freak, and so on. But to discuss together, the four of us and see if we could be free of violence completely, means not escaping, not suppressing, not transcending it, and see what is violence. Violence is part of imitation, conformity. Right? Apart from physical hurts, I am not talking about that. So, psychologically there is this constant comparing, that is part of hurt, part of violence. So, can I live without comparison, when from childhood I have been trained to compare myself with somebody? I am talking comparison, not good cloth and bad cloth.	K: Tôi không biết, tôi sẽ tìm hiểu. Tôi nói, với tôi, tôi biết bạn có thể sống không bạo lực. Nhưng nó có thể là điều kỳ cục, điều kỳ cục sinh học, v.v.. Nhưng để cùng thảo luận, bốn chúng ta và xem có thể thoát khỏi bạo lực hoàn toàn, không chạy trốn, không loại trừ, không vượt bỏ nó, Và xem bạo lực là gì. Bạo lực là một phần của bắt chước, tuân thủ. Phải không? Bỏ qua tổn thương vật lý, tôi không nói về nó. Vậy, tâm lý có luôn so sánh, đó là một phần của tổn thương, bạo lực. Vậy, tôi có thể sống không so sánh, từ lúc nhỏ tôi đã được rèn so sánh mình với người khác? Tôi nói về so sánh, không phải mảnh vải xấu và tốt.
40:16	H: Right. Talking about comparing myself.	H: Đúng. Nói về so sánh mình.
40:19	K: Myself with you who are bright, who are clever, who have got publicity. When you say a word the whole world listens. And I can shout, nobody cares. So, I want to be like you. So, I am comparing constantly myself with something I think is greater.	K: Tôi với bạn người sáng chói, khép léo hơn, người có tiếng tăm. Khi bạn nói cả thế giới lắng nghe. Và tôi hét lên, không ai để ý. Nên, tôi muốn như bạn. Vậy, tôi luôn so sánh mình với điều gì tôi nghĩ lớn hơn.
40:42	H: So, this is where becoming comes from, this comparison.	H: Vậy, nơi trở thành bắt đầu, là so sánh.
40:45	K: That's just it. So, can I live without comparison?	K: Đúng thế. Vậy, tôi có thể sống không so sánh?
40:50	H: Doesn't that leave me in an insufficient state?	H: Đó không bỏ tôi trong trạng thái thiếu kém ư?
40:53	K: No. To live without comparison? No.	K: Không. Sống không so sánh? Không.
40:57	H: Here I start off insufficient...	H: Này, tôi khởi đầu thiếu kém...
41:00	K: You understand, sir? Am I dull because I compare myself with you, who are bright? H: Yes. Yes, you are dull because you compare yourself.	K: Bạn hiểu không? Tôi đờ đẩn vì so sánh tôi với bạn, người sáng chói? H: Vâng. Vâng, ngài đờ đẩn vì ngài so sánh mình.
41:10	K: By comparing myself with you, who are bright, who are clever, I become dull. I think I am dull. H: Yes.	K: Bởi so sánh tôi với bạn, người sáng chói, khéo léo hơn, tôi thành đần. Tôi nghĩ tôi đần. H: Vâng.
41:17	K: But if I don't compare I am what I am.	K: Nếu không so sánh thì tôi là tôi.
41:20	S: Well, you may not compare but I may compare. I may say, 'You are dull'.	S: À, ngài có thể không so nhưng tôi có thể. Tôi nói, 'Ngài đần.'
41:25	K: All right. I say, 'All right'. You say I am dull. I say, 'Am I?' I want to know what does it mean. Does it mean he is comparing himself with me, who is... - you follow? the reverse of it!	K: Tốt. Tôi nói, 'Tốt.' Bạn nói tôi đần. Tôi nói, 'vậy à?' Tôi muốn biết nó nghĩa gì. Nghĩa là anh ta so sánh mình với tôi, kẻ... - kịp không? (Cười) ngược lại
41:39	S: Very frustrating, that. Yes. I mean, if one compared oneself with somebody and said, 'You are dull', and then they said, 'What does dullness mean?'	S: Rất nản lòng, đó. Vâng. Ý tôi, nếu so sánh mình với ai đó và nói, 'Bạn đần,' và rồi họ nói, 'Đần nghĩa là gì?'!(Cười)
41:53	K: The other day, after one of the talks in England a man came up to me and said, 'Sir, you are a beautiful old man, but you are stuck in a rut'. I said, 'Well, sir, perhaps, sir, I don't know, we'll go into it'. So I went up to my room and said, 'Am I?' Because I don't want to be stuck in a rut. I may be. So, I went into it very, very carefully, step by step, and found what does a rut mean - to stick in a groove along a particular line. Maybe, so I watch it. So, observation of a fact is entirely different from the escaping or the suppression of it.	K: Hôm nọ, sau buổi nói chuyện ở Anh một người đến và nói 'Thưa, ngài là ông già tốt, nhưng ngài sống theo lối mòn.' Tôi nói, 'À, có thể, Tôi không biết, chúng ta sẽ tìm hiểu.' Rồi tôi lên phòng và nói, 'vậy à?' Bởi không muốn sống lối mòn. Tôi có thể vậy. Nên, tôi tìm hiểu thật, thật kỹ, từng bước, và hiểu lối mòn là gì - bám vào một rãnh, một lối riêng nào. Có lẽ, nên tôi quan sát. Vậy, quan sát sự kiện hoàn toàn khác với chạy trốn hay loại trừ nó.
42:45	H: So, he says you are stuck in a rut, and you observe it, you don't compare.	H: Vậy, hắn nói ngài sống lối mòn, và ngài quan sát, ngài không so sánh.
42:50	K: I don't. Am I in a rut? I look. I may be stuck in a rut, because I speak English. I speak Italian and French. All right. And that's not… Am I psychologically, inwardly, caught in a groove, like a tram car?	K: Không. Lối mòn à? Tôi nhìn. Tôi có thể sống lối mòn, bởi tôi nói tiếng Anh. Tôi nói tiếng Ý và Pháp. Tốt. Và đó không... Tâm lý, bên trong, tôi kẹt trong đường rãnh, như xe điện?
43:16	H: Just motivated by something and not understanding it.	H: Chỉ bị thôi thúc bởi gì đó và không hiểu nó.
43:19	K: No, am I? I don't know, I am going to find out. I am going to watch. I am going to be terribly attentive, sensitive, alert.	K: Không, vậy à? Tôi không biết, tôi sẽ tìm ra. Tôi sẽ quan sát. Tôi sẽ hết sức chú tâm, nhanh nhạy, để ý.
43:32	H: Now, this requires that you are not reacting in the first place by saying 'No, that's horrible, I couldn't possibly be stuck in a rut'.	H: Nào, nó đòi hỏi ngài không phản ứng tức thì bởi nói 'Không, khủng khiếp, tôi không thể sống theo lối mòn.'
43:39	K: I wouldn't. You may be telling the truth.	K: Không. Bạn có thể nói sự thật.
43:50	H: To not have that reaction you can't have that self there that says, 'I am not the type of person that is stuck in ruts'.	H: Không có phản ứng đó ngài không thể có ngã ở đó nó nói, 'tôi không phải loại người sống theo lối mòn.'
43:56	K: I don't know. Sir, is there a learning about oneself, which is not... - this leads to something else, I mustn't go into it - which is not constant accumulation about myself? I don't know if I am making myself clear.	K: Tôi không biết. Có chăng học về chính mình, nó không... - sang việc khác rồi, không nên tìm hiểu nó - không là cứ tích luỹ về mình? Không biết tôi nói rõ chăng.
44:25	H: Yes.	H: Vâng.
44:28	K: I observe myself. H: Yes.	K: Tôi quan sát mình. H: Vâng.
44:31	K: And I have learnt from that observation something. And that something is being accumulated all the time by watching. I think that is not learning about yourself.	K: Và tôi học gì đó từ quan sát ấy. Và điều ấy được tích luỹ bởi quan sát luôn luôn. Tôi nghĩ đó không phải học về mình.
44:44	H: Yes. It's being concerned with what you think about yourself.	H: Vâng. Nó là quan tâm đến điều bạn nghĩ về mình.
44:48	K: Yes, what you think about yourself, what you have gathered about yourself.	K: Vâng, điều bạn nghĩ về mình, điều bạn gom góp về mình.
44:53	H: Yes.	H: Vâng.
44:57	K: Like a river that is flowing, you have to follow it. That leads somewhere else. Let's get back.	K: Như dòng sông trôi chảy, bạn phải theo nó. Nó dẫn đi nơi khác. Quay lại đi.
45:06	H: Maybe this is part of the question we are asking, because we start with how does this disorder occur. K: Yes, sir, let's stick to that.	H: Có lẽ đây là một phần câu chúng ta hỏi, bởi chúng ta bắt đầu với rối loạn xảy ra cách nào. K: Vâng, hãy bám vào đó.
45:15	H: It occurs because I have the image of myself of someone who knows he is not stuck in a rut. I don't like to think that I am stuck in a rut, and somebody says, 'Yes, you are.'	H: Nó xảy ra bởi tôi có hình ảnh về mình về ai đó biết anh ta không sống lối mòn. Tôi không thích nghĩ rằng tôi sống lối mòn, và ai đó nói, 'Vâng, bạn vậy đó.'
45:25	K: But you may be.	K: Nhưng có lẽ bạn vậy.
45:27	H: Yes. I have to be open to looking, to see.	H: Vâng. Tôi phải được mở để nhìn, để ngắm.
45:30	K: Yes, to observe.	K: Vâng, để quan sát.
45:32	S: But then what about this approach: somebody says I am stuck in a rut, I look at myself and think, 'Yes, I am stuck in a rut' and then I can respond by thinking, what's wrong with that? Everyone is stuck in a rut. K: Sir, that's just blind.	S: Nhưng rồi tiếp cận ấy thì sao: ai đó nói tôi sống lối mòn, Tôi nhìn mình và nghĩ, 'Vâng, tôi sống lối mòn,' và rồi tôi có thể đáp bởi nghĩ, vậy có gì sai? Mọi người sống lối mòn. K: Đó chỉ là mù quáng.
45:47	S: No, you accept the fact, but then you think, 'Why should I do anything about it?' What's wrong with that as an approach?	S: Không, ngài chấp nhận sự thật, nhưng rồi nghĩ, 'Tại sao tôi nên làm gì đó?' Đó có gì sai như cách tiếp cận?
45:55	K: Like a man stuck as a Hindu, he is stuck. He is then contributing to war.	K: Như người kẹt trong Hinđu, hắn bị kẹt. Rồi hắn góp phần vào chiến tranh.
46:03	S: I may say, well, I am stuck in a rut, but so is everybody, it is the nature of humanity to be stuck in ruts.	S: Tôi có thể nói, à, tôi sống lối mòn, nhưng ai cũng vậy, bản chất con người là sống lối mòn.
46:10	K: You see, that's it, you go off, that is the nature of humanity. But I question that. If you say that is the nature of humanity, let's change it, for god's sake!	K: Bạn xem, vậy đó, bạn bỏ qua, đó là bản chất con người. Nhưng tôi hỏi nó. Nếu bạn nói đó là bản chất con người, hãy thay đổi đi, vì Chúa!
46:22	S: But you may believe it is unchangeable. What reason have I for believing that we can change it? I may think that I am stuck in a rut, so are you, so is everybody else. And anyone who thinks they are not is deceiving themselves.	S: Nhưng ngài có thể tin nó không thể thay đổi. Lý do nào tôi tin rằng tôi có thể thay đổi? Tôi có thể nghĩ tôi sống lối mòn, bạn cũng vậy, ai khác cũng vậy. Và ai đó nghĩ họ không vậy, là tự gạt.
46:34	K: It's cheating themselves. I may cheat, so I begin to enquire - am I cheating myself? I want to be very honest about it. I don't want to cheat, I don't want to be a hypocrite.	K: Tự gạt. Tôi có thể gạt, nên tôi bắt đầu tìm tòi - tôi tự gạt ư? Tôi muốn hết sức thành thật việc này. Tôi không muốn gạt, tôi không muốn đạo đức giả.
46:46	S: You may not be a hypocrite, you may think, 'I am stuck in a rut', and you may be a pessimist. The alternative to being a hypocrite is a pessimist.	S: Ngài không thể đạo đức giả, có thể nghĩ, 'tôi sống lối mòn,' và ngài có thể bi quan. Hoặc đạo đức giả là bi quan.
46:54	K: No, I am neither a pessimist nor an optimist. I say, 'Look, am I stuck in a rut?' I watch all day.	K: Không, tôi không bi quan hay lạc quan. Tôi nói, 'Nào, sống lối mòn ư?' Tôi quan sát cả ngày.
47:04	S: And you perhaps conclude, 'Yes'. But then you can take the pessimistic cause and say, 'Yes, I am, but so what?'	S: Và ngài có thể kết luận ,'Vâng.' Nhưng rồi có thể nắm nguyên nhân bi quan và nói, 'Vâng, tôi vậy, rồi sao nào?'
47:14	K: If you prefer that way of living, go ahead. But I don't want to live that way.	K: Nếu bạn thích lối sống ấy, cứ tiếp tục. Nhưng tôi không muốn sống lối ấy.
47:22	H: Well, the person who comes into therapy usually comes with both sides going on at the same time. He says that I have this problem which I want to be free of, I don't want to be stuck in a rut; on the other hand, when it gets down to really looking at that, he doesn't want to look at it either, because it becomes uncomfortable.	H: Này, người đến trị bịnh thường đến với hai mặt xảy ra cùng lúc. Hắn nói tôi có vấn đề này và tôi muốn thoát khỏi, tôi không muốn sống lối mòn; mặt khác, khi thực sự quay lại nhìn nó, hắn cũng không muốn nhìn nó nữa, bởi nó thành ra không dễ chịu.
47:43	K: Of course. So, to come back to your original question, the world is in disorder, human beings are in disorder, and we described what is disorder. And is there a possibility to live free from disorder? That is the real basic question. We said as long as there is this divisive process of life - I am a Hindu, you are an Arab, I am a Buddhist, you are a Muslim, I am British, you are an Argentine - there must be conflict, war. My son is going to be killed, for what?	K: Dĩ nhiên. Vậy, trở lại vấn đề ban đầu, thế giới đang rối loạn, con người đang rối loạn, và chúng ta mô tả rối loạn là gì. Và có thể nào sống thoát khỏi rối loạn? Đó là vấn đề rất cơ bản. Chúng ta nói hễ còn tiến tình phân chia của đời sống - tôi là Hinđu, bạn là Ả rập, tôi Phật giáo, bạn Hồi giáo, Tôi người Anh, bạn Á căn đình - tất phải có xung đột, chiến tranh. Con trai tôi sẽ bị giết, vì cái gì?
48:39	H: For as long as I identify on a personal level with my job, or with my family, and so on, there will be pain.	H: Hễ còn đồng hoá ở mức độ cá nhân với công việc, hay với gia đình, v.v.., thì sẽ còn đau khổ.
48:46	K: Of course. H: It is the same process.	K: Dĩ nhiên. H: Nó cùng tiến trình.
48:48	K: So, is it possible to have, without identification, responsibility?	K: Vậy, có thể có trách nhiệm mà không đồng hoá?
48:56	H: If I am not identified will I even go to work?	H: Nếu không đồng hoá tôi đi làm được sao?
48:59	K: But I am responsible for the lady whom I am married. Responsible in the sense that I have to look after her, care for her, and she has to care for me. Responsibility means order. But we have become totally irresponsible by isolating ourselves - British, French.	K: Nhưng tôi trách nhiệm với người tôi kết hôn. Trách nhiệm trong nghĩa tôi phải chăm sóc, lo cho cô ta, và cô ta phải chăm sóc tôi. Trách nhiệm nghĩa trật tự. Nhưng chúng ta trở nên vô trách nhiệm bởi cô lập mình - Người Anh, Pháp.
49:27	H: We handle the problem of responsibility by developing a rut that we can work in. K: Yes. That's it.	H: Chúng ta giải quyết vấn đề trách nhiệm bởi phát triển lối mòn chúng ta có thể làm việc. K: Vâng. Đúng vậy.
49:33	H: And staying inside that.	H: Và ở luôn trong đó.
49:40	K: If I see the fact that responsibility is order - I am responsible to keep this house clean - but as we all live on this earth, it is our earth, not British earth, and French earth, and German earth, it is our earth to live on. And we have divided ourselves, because in this division we think there is security.	K: Nếu tôi thấy thực tế trách nhiệm là trật tự - tôi trách nhiệm giữ nhà sạch - nhưng như chúng ta sống trên mặt đất này, là đất, không đất Anh đất Pháp, hay đất Đức, là đất chúng ta sống trên đó. Và chúng ta phân chia mình, bởi phân chia ấy chúng ta nghĩ có an toàn.
50:14	H: There is stability and security.	H: Có ổn định và an toàn.
50:16	K: Security. Which is no security at all.	K: An toàn. Nó không an toàn gì cả.
50:21	H: Well, it isn't clear, we have got to go slow, because I think that my job is security, I think that my family is security.	H: À, chưa được rõ, chúng ta phải đi chậm, bởi tôi nghĩ việc làm tôi là an toàn, gia đình tôi là an toàn.
50:29	K: You may lose it.	K: Bạn có thể mất nó.
50:31	H: That problem keeps coming up.	H: Vấn đề ấy sẽ được nêu.
50:32	K: There is great unemployment in America and in England, three million people unemployed in England.	K: Thất nghiệp rất nhiều ở Mỹ và Anh, ba triệu người thất nghiệp ở Anh.
50:39	H: Or maybe I could get by without my job, but I need to think that I have some self respect.	H: Hay có thể bỏ qua không việc làm, nhưng tôi phải nghĩ rằng tôi tự trọng.
50:45	K: What do you mean, self respect?	K: Tự trọng, ý bạn là gì?
50:47	H: What I am trying to say is that there is some place at which I put an identification.	H: Điều tôi cố nói là có vài chỗ tôi đặt sự đồng hóa ở đó.
50:52	K: Why should I want to identify with anything, sir? That makes immediate isolation.	K: Tại sao tôi muốn đồng hóa với gì đó? Nó tạo cô lập ngay.
51:04	H: For stability's sake.	H: Vì ổn định.
51:08	K: Does isolation bring about stability?	K: Cô lập tạo ra ổn định ư?
51:12	H: It gives one a sense of something hard and firm.	H: Nó cho ta cảm giác điều gì cứng và chắc.
51:15	K: Does it? Has it? We have had for the last five thousand years nearly five thousands wars. Is that stability?	K: Vậy ư? Có chăng? Đã năm ngàn năm qua chúng ta có gần năm ngàn cuộc chiến. Là ổn định sao?
51:34	H: No.	H: Không.
51:35	K: Why don't we accept... I won't go into all that. What is wrong with us?	K: Tại sao không chấp nhận... Tôi sẽ không đi sâu. Có gì sai với chúng ta?
51:41	H: Well, why don't we see this thing? You are saying that the root of the problem is that I continue to identify with one thing after another, if one doesn't work I just find something else. I don't stop identifying.	H: Này, tại sao chúng ta không nhìn việc này? Ngài nói rằng gốc của vấn đề là chúng ta tiếp tục đồng hóa với việc này nọ, nếu cái này không được tôi tìm cái khác. Tôi không dừng đồng hóa.
51:52	K: Yes, sir, which breeds isolation.	K: Vâng, nó sinh ra cô lập.
51:56	H: But in your example about the person that is stuck in a rut, you say, 'I don't have to identify, I can just step back and look at this thing, and see if it is true'.	H: Nhưng trong ví dụ người sống theo lối mòn, ngài nói, 'tôi không cần đồng hóa, tôi có thể bước lui và nhìn sự việc, và xem nó đúng không.
52:07	K: Yes.	K: Vâng.
52:08	H: So, you are suggesting that there is something that is not identified, something that is free to look.	H: Vậy, ngài gợi ý rằng có gì đó không bị đồng hóa, gì đó tự do để nhìn.
52:15	K: No. This leads to something else. Why do I want to identify myself? Probably, basically, the desire to be secure, to be safe, to be protected. And that sense gives me strength.	K: Không. Đó dẫn đến việc khác. Tại sao tôi muốn đồng hóa mình? Có lẽ, cơ bản, ước muốn được an toàn, an ổn, được bảo vệ. Và cảm giác ấy, cho tôi sức mạnh.
52:37	H: Strength, and purpose, direction.	H: Sức mạnh, mục đích, hướng đi.
52:40	K: It gives me strength. H: Yes.	K: Nó cho tôi sức mạnh. H: Vâng.
52:43	S: But this is a biological fact. It is not merely an illusion. And if we again, to come back to the animal kingdom, we see it there - deer go round in flocks, birds have flocks, bees have hives and they are identified with the hive in which they work.	S: Nhưng là thực tế sinh học. Đó không phải ảo tưởng. Và nếu trở lại vương quốc loài thú, chúng ta thấy đó - nai đi thành bầy, chim có đàn, ong có tổ và chúng đồng hóa với tổ trong công việc.
52:58	K: But bees don't kill themselves, species don't kill themselves.	K: Nhưng ong không giết nhau, cùng loài không giết nhau.
53:04	S: Well, they kill other, they kill other bees that invade their hive. They don't commit suicide. They kill others.	S: À, chúng giết kẻ khác, chúng giết ong khác xâm lấn tổ nó. Chúng không tự sát. Chúng giết kẻ khác.
53:10	K: But we are!	K: Nhưng chúng ta có!
53:12	S: Yes and no, bees do fight other bees that come into the hive.	S: Có và không, ong đánh ong khác vào tổ nó.
53:16	K: Of course. Yes, I know, I've raised bees, I know.	K: Dĩ nhiên. Vâng, tôi biết, tôi có nuôi ong, tôi biết.
53:19	S: So, we see even in the animal kingdom this identification with the group, in the social animals, and many social animals, and we are social animals.	S: Vậy, chúng ta thấy trong vương quốc loài vật, đồng hoá với nhóm, trong động vật xã hội, và nhiều động vật xã hội, và chúng ta là động vật xã hội.
53:29	K: Just a minute. Agree. Are we by identifying ourselves with India, or China, or Germany, is that giving us security?	K: Đợi chút. Đồng ý. Bởi đồng hóa mình với Ấn độ, hay Trung hoa, hay Đức, nó cho chúng ta an toàn?
53:43	S: To a limited extent it is. K: A limited extent.	S: Đến giới hạn nào là vậy. K: Giới hạn nào đó.
53:45	S: And by identifying ourselves with our families does, because this whole question of responsibility seems closely linked to it. If I identify myself with my family, feel duties towards them, protect - if my sister's insulted, I rush to her defence, and make a big fuss about it, and threaten, if not actually kill, the people who insulted her.	S: Và bởi đồng hóa mình với gia đình, mà cả vấn đề trách nhiệm hình như dính chặc với nó. Nếu tôi đồng hóa tôi với gia đình, cảm thấy trách nhiệm với họ, bảo vệ - nếu em gái bị mắng, tôi nhào đến che chở, và làm om sòm lên, và đe dọa, nếu thực không giết kẻ mắng cô ta.
54:07	K: We have no sisters. S: Yes, fortunately not.	K: Chúng ta không có em. (Cười) S: Vâng, may mắn là không.
54:13	S: So, if I protect members of my family and defend, rush to their defence, so an insult to them or an attack on them is an insult to me, so I rush to their defence.	S: Vậy, nếu chúng ta bảo vệ thành viên gia đình và che chở, ào đến che chở, nên mắng họ hay tấn công họ là tấn công tôi, nên tôi ào đến che chở.
54:24	K: Of course.	K: Dĩ nhiên.
54:25	S: There is a reciprocal obligation on their part, if I fall ill or sick they'll feed me and look after me, if I get arrested by the police they will try and get me out of prison, and so on. So, it does give me a kind of security, it actually works.	S: Có bắt buộc hỗ tương về phần họ, nếu tôi ngã bịnh họ sẽ nuôi và chăm sóc tôi, nếu tôi bị cảnh sát giữ họ sẽ cố lôi tôi ra khỏi tù, v.v.. Vậy, nó cho tôi một loại an toàn, thực thế.
54:37	K: Of course.	K: Dĩ nhiên.
54:39	S: And that is a very good reason for doing it, for most people.	S: Và đó là lý do tốt để làm thế, với mọi người.
54:41	K: But stretch it further from the family, to the community, from the community to the nation, and so on, that is a vast process of isolating. You are English, I am German, and we are at each other's throat. And I say, for god's sake, this is so damn stupid!	K: Nhưng trải rộng hơn từ gia đình, đến cộng đồng, từ cộng đồng đến quốc gia, v.v.. đó là tiến trình rộng lớn của cô lập. Bạn là người Anh, tôi Đức, và chúng ta đấu đá lẫn nhau. Và tôi nói, lạy trời, thật quá ngốc nghếch!
55:04	S: Well, it is not entirely stupid because it works to a certain extent. K: This is most impractical. It may work, but it's impractical, it is killing each other.	S: Nó không hoàn toàn ngốc bởi vẫn được ở giới hạn nào. K: Nó quá không thực tế. Có thể được, nhưng không thực tế, nó giết lẫn nhau.
55:14	S: But we haven't killed each other yet, there are more human beings than there have ever been before. So the system so far has gone to the point where we are far from killing each other, we have actually got to the point where we have got a bigger population than the world has ever seen. So, the system works only too well, for some reason.	S: Nhưng chúng ta chưa giết nhau, có nhiều người hơn đã từng có. Vậy hệ thống đến nay đã đến điểm xa hơn là giết lẫn nhau, chúng ta thực sự đến điểm mà dân số quá đông hơn thế giới từng thấy. Vậy, hệ thống hoạt động rất tốt, vì vài lý do.
55:33	K: So, you propose war to kill them off?	K: Vậy, bạn đề nghị chiến tranh giết họ ư?
55:37	S: No! But there is some aspect of it that does work, and some security that is genuine that these things confer.	S: Không! Nhưng vài phương diện nó hoạt động tốt, và vài an toàn những việc này đem đến là xác thực.
55:46	K: Yes, sir. At a certain level, identification has a certain importance. Right? But at a higher level, if you can call it higher, it becomes dangerous. That's all we are saying. Of course, if you are my brother you look after me.	K: Vâng. Ở mức độ nào đồng hóa là quan trọng. Phải không? Nhưng mức độ cao hơn, nếu có thể gọi cao hơn, nó trở nên nguy hiểm. Chúng ta nói việc đó. Dĩ nhiên, nếu là anh em bạn chăm sóc tôi.
56:08	B: It is very hard to draw the line, you see, that starts spreading out.	B: Rất khó mà vẽ một đường, bạn xem, nó bắt đầu lan rộng.
56:13	K: That's right, spreading out. B: You know, it slips.	K: Đúng vậy, lan rộng. B: Ngài biết đó, nó trượt.
56:16	K: That's is what I am so objecting to.	K: Đó là điều tôi phản đối.
56:19	S: But you see, the question is where do you draw the line, because if you are my brother, then you have the tribal, the clan, or in India, the caste.	S: Nhưng ngài xem, vấn đề là chúng ta vẽ đường ở đâu, bởi nếu bạn là anh em, rồi bạn có bộ lạc, thị tộc, hay ở Ấn, giai cấp.
56:26	K: That's it. Extend it. And then we say, 'I am Argentine, you are British, he's French', economically, socially, culturally, we are murdering each other. And I say, that is so insane!	K: Đúng vậy. Mở rộng ra. Và rồi nói, 'Tôi là Á căn đình, bạn là Anh, hắn Pháp, chúng ta đấu đá nhau... kinh tế, xã hội, văn hóa, chúng ta sát hại nhau. Và tôi nói, điên quá!
56:44	S: But where do you draw the line? If you say the nation state is wrong, then what is wrong with the tribe or the caste, then you have got conflict between those. We've got conflict between families. K: I wouldn't draw the line. I say, I am responsible as a human being for what is happening in the world, because I am a human. And so what is happening in the world is this terrible division, and I won't be a Hindu, I won't be a Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist - nothing. If there were a hundred people or a thousand people like that they would begin to do something.	S: Nhưng ngài vẽ đường ranh chỗ nào? Nếu ngài nói quốc gia là sai, thì có gì sai với bộ lạc hay giai cấp, rồi ngài có xung đột với chúng. Chúng ta có xung đột trong gia đình. K: Tôi vẽ đường ranh. tôi nói, tôi trách nhiệm như con người về việc xảy ra trên thế gian, bởi tôi là người. Và việc xảy ra trên thế gian là phân chia ghê gớm này, nên tôi không là Hinđu, không là Cơ đốc, Tin lành, Phật giáo - không gì hết. Nếu có hàng trăm hay hàng ngàn người như vậy họ sẽ bắt đầu làm gì đó.
57:26	H: So you are saying that the problem comes up, because I mistake my local security, I think that it rests in some local identification.	H: Nên ngài nói rằng vấn đề đặt ra, bởi tôi lầm lẫn an toàn cục bộ, tôi nghĩ rằng sẽ an ổn nơi đồng hóa cục bộ.
57:35	K: Yes, sir, which is isolation. And therefore in isolation there is no security. And therefore there is no order.	K: Vâng, đó là cô lập. Và vì vậy trong cô lập không có an toàn. Và vì vậy không có trật tự.